Friends,
My knowledge of electronic circuitry is, as you are aware, limited.
Not really a discussion but you might like to view it as such?
You may remember that I built in a warning light, in the shape of an LED, into the power supply (16 volt AC) to my controller?
Well I connected up the power today to run a few trains as distraction from my hassles with LED lighting and using my Gaugemaster Controller (Panel mounted) there was insufficient power at the track to operate anything!
ONLY one LED was used in-line but it sapped enough energy to stop play!
Disconnecting the LED and everything worked fine?
Any ideas? Peter.
Quote from: petercharlesfagg on July 05, 2015, 04:47:49 PM
Friends,
My knowledge of electronic circuitry is, as you are aware, limited.
Not really a discussion but you might like to view it as such?
You may remember that I built in a warning light, in the shape of an LED, into the power supply (16 volt AC) to my controller?
Well I connected up the power today to run a few trains as distraction from my hassles with LED lighting and using my Gaugemaster Controller (Panel mounted) there was insufficient power at the track to operate anything!
ONLY one LED was used in-line but it sapped enough energy to stop play!
Disconnecting the LED and everything worked fine?
Any ideas? Peter.
Oh my God Peter.
Are you sure you haven't got a little electronic poltergeist floating around your layout.
The led will only consume about 30mA so is not likely to be the problem.
You need to learn how to use that multimeter of yours and look for shorts or bad connections.
:beers:
Quote from: austinbob on July 05, 2015, 04:56:31 PM
Oh my God Peter.
Are you sure you haven't got a little electronic poltergeist floating around your layout.
The led will only consume about 30mA so is not likely to be the problem.
You need to learn how to use that multimeter of yours and look for shorts or bad connections.
:beers:
:D :D
Not a poltergeist just a ham-fisted clod hopper!
Need a degree in understanding jargon for the instructions for the Multi-meter!
Peter.
Quote from: petercharlesfagg on July 05, 2015, 05:01:15 PM
Need a degree in understanding jargon for the instructions for the Multi-meter!
Peter.
Likewise, Peter.
As a friend once said "All the gear and no idea" :-[
Couple of questions
Have you got a local Maplin or similar where you could look for a simple multimeter with simple instructions?
Have you got a mate nearby who could help you learn to use your meter or do some measurements for you?
Otherwise its gonna be another free for all guessing game.
??? :help: ;)
Quote from: petercharlesfagg on July 05, 2015, 04:47:49 PM
run a few trains as distraction from my hassles with LED
,
one LED was used in-line
Good idea re. hassles :)
,
wow I am as surprised as Bob !
when you say "in-line" do you really mean in-line with one of the lines, that would reduce things dramatically !
or do you mean you have connected it across the lines, ie. the led and its resistor ACROSS (aka between) the + and - lines. In which case I am mystified :(
I hope the latter, not the former ? Just checking upon your polterwhatsit :) :)
Quote from: austinbob on July 05, 2015, 05:09:24 PM
Couple of questions
Have you got a local Maplin or similar where you could look for a simple multimeter with simple instructions?
Have you got a mate nearby who could help you learn to use your meter or do some measurements for you?
Otherwise its gonna be another free for all guessing game.
??? :help: ;)
Yes, we have a Maplin in Banbury, whether they have a "simple" multi-meter is another question? (I will study their website for ideas)
No, no-one local, Malc has visited from Birmingham but I do not want to keep bothering him.
There is Trevor (Chinahand) in Daventry but as yet we have only met at TINGS, not conducive to talking details!
Needless to say I will have to write ALL instructions out in longhand if I am ever to remember anything and first and foremost where I put my own instructions!
Peter.
Quote from: MalcolmAL on July 05, 2015, 05:18:38 PM
Quote from: petercharlesfagg on July 05, 2015, 04:47:49 PM
run a few trains as distraction from my hassles with LED
,
one LED was used in-line
Good idea re. hassles :)
,
wow I am as surprised as Bob !
when you say "in-line" do you really mean in-line with one of the lines, that would reduce things dramatically !
or do you mean you have connected it across the lines, ie. the led and its resistor ACROSS (aka between) the + and - lines. In which case I am mystified :(
I hope the latter, not the former ? Just checking upon your polterwhatsit :) :)
My meaning of "in-line" is in the outgoing power line, not across between the negative and positive lines.
(I did the same for the out line for the console and all the LED's, I have since removed that warning LED too because it popped!)
Was that the wrong way to do it? Peter.
Peter, have a look on You Tube. There are a multitude of videos showing you how to use a multimeter for various purposes and as the old saying goes: a picture is worth a thousand words ;)
You might even find a video with your multimeter featured in it :thumbsup:
cheers John.
Quote from: scotsoft on July 05, 2015, 05:28:19 PM
Peter, have a look on You Tube. There are a multitude of videos showing you how to use a multimeter for various purposes and as the old saying goes: a picture is worth a thousand words ;)
You might even find a video with your multimeter featured in it :thumbsup:
cheers John.
John, I am planning to do JUST THAT after the 12th of July when, hopefully, we will have a desktop PC that actually works! Our laptop is SOOOOO SLOOOW that it will not play videos at all!
Thanks for the thought, Peter.
Quote from: scotsoft on July 05, 2015, 05:28:19 PM
Peter, have a look on You Tube. There are a multitude of videos showing you how to use a multimeter for various purposes and as the old saying goes: a picture is worth a thousand words ;)
You might even find a video with your multimeter featured in it :thumbsup:
cheers John.
That's a great idea John. Do you know of any links you could give Peter?
:beers:
Quote from: austinbob on July 05, 2015, 05:33:43 PM
That's a great idea John. Do you know of any links you could give Peter?
:beers:
Just do a search for multimeter and many videos will appear ;)
cheers John.
Peter,
You may want to buy a basic book on this stuff - I find Make: Electronics (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Make-Electronics-Discovery-Charles-Platt/dp/0596153740)is a good starting point !
Mike
Quote from: petercharlesfagg on July 05, 2015, 05:24:34 PM
Quote from: austinbob on July 05, 2015, 05:09:24 PM
Couple of questions
Have you got a local Maplin or similar where you could look for a simple multimeter with simple instructions?
Have you got a mate nearby who could help you learn to use your meter or do some measurements for you?
Otherwise its gonna be another free for all guessing game.
??? :help: ;)
Yes, we have a Maplin in Banbury, whether they have a "simple" multi-meter is another question? (I will study their website for ideas)
No, no-one local, Malc has visited from Birmingham but I do not want to keep bothering him.
There is Trevor (Chinahand) in Daventry but as yet we have only met at TINGS, not conducive to talking details!
Needless to say I will have to write ALL instructions out in longhand if I am ever to remember anything and first and foremost where I put my own instructions!
Peter.
It's possible the Maplin guys could talk you through how some of their multimeters work and show you the instructions. Might be worth a try next time you're in Banbury.
:beers:
Peter,
If the LED was in line and on one of the wires from a 16 VAC power supply then only half of the AC current would pass through, at most.
Which is why it appeared to sap so much power.
The LED is a diode which is a sort of valve that only lets current pass in one direction. Thus for 1/2 the AC wave it would be blocked.
Also without a resistor then I would imagine after a short while the LED will blow.
The LED could have been used by putting it across the 2 wires from the power supply with an appropriate resistor to limit the current. In this configuration current would still pass in only one direction but the flickering would be so quick that you would still just see a lit led.
Steve
Quote from: petercharlesfagg on July 05, 2015, 05:27:39 PM
My meaning of "in-line" is in the outgoing power line, not across between the negative and positive lines.
,
Was that the wrong way to do it? Peter.
Ah now then this may be it
or maybe I am misunderstanding, words are such poor things for this !!
"in-line" with one of the wires IN the outgoing power line
or between the two wires OF the power line ??
If the first then that is the problem,
Cant write more at the mo. I am supposed to be cooking the evening meal ! and the domestic staff will soon be complainig,
perhaps Bob or someone can pick it up and run with it meanwhile ?
Ah, I see Steve already has !
more later , , ,
Quote from: Steve.T on July 05, 2015, 05:57:29 PM
If the LED was in line and on one of the wires from a 16 VAC power supply then only half of the AC current would pass through, at most. The LED is a diode which is a sort of valve that only lets current pass in one direction.
Assuming it is in series, in other words in one of the two wires from the AC supply to the controller (see below), wouldn't it also limit the current? Say it has a working current of 20ma, that will be the current passing through it, and as it completes the circuit there's nowhere else for any current to pass.
AC output 1 --- LED ----- controller input 1
AC output 2 -------------- controller input 2
I didn't really want to go into it too deeply as Peter has said his electronic knowledge is basic.
Assuming the led did not blow then it would limit the current by at least half due to blocking half the current as it is AC.
On top of that it would lower the voltage to the controller by 2 to 3 V (maybe more if a blue led) due to the forward voltage of the led.
However it will not limit any current to say 20mA as the current is normally limited by adding a series resistor. To be honest without knowing the circuitry of the controller it is difficult to say what current would be passing through the led, it could be more or less than 20 mA.
Or that's how I am picturing what will be happening.
Steve
Quote from: Steve.T on July 05, 2015, 05:57:29 PM
Peter,
If the LED was in line and on one of the wires from a 16 VAC power supply then only half of the AC current would pass through, at most.
Which is why it appeared to sap so much power.
The LED is a diode which is a sort of valve that only lets current pass in one direction. Thus for 1/2 the AC wave it would be blocked.
Also without a resistor then I would imagine after a short while the LED will blow.
The LED could have been used by putting it across the 2 wires from the power supply with an appropriate resistor to limit the current. In this configuration current would still pass in only one direction but the flickering would be so quick that you would still just see a lit led.
Steve
Steve - from memory Peter is using an led with a resistor in series. So if he's put the led and resistor in line from his power supply to his controller he would have only a few mA available to power his locos.
Your suggestion to connect the led (with series resistor already incorporated) looks good.
If you understand any of that Peter then give it a try. :beers:
Quote from: austinbob on July 05, 2015, 06:16:50 PM
Steve - from memory Peter is using an led with a resistor in series. So if he's put the led and resistor in line from his power supply to his controller he would have only a few mA available to power his locos.
True, that would reduce any current to almost nothing.
:thumbsup:
Quote from: Steve.T on July 05, 2015, 06:15:45 PM
However it will not limit any current to say 20mA
Surely it will, Steve? Being a diode it will block half of the cycle completely (converting the AC into DC), and the DC half that it is allowing through cannot be much more than the working current, otherwise it will blow and there will be none.
Quote from: Steve.T on July 05, 2015, 05:57:29 PM
Peter,
If the LED was in line and on one of the wires from a 16 VAC power supply then only half of the AC current would pass through, at most.
Which is why it appeared to sap so much power.
The LED is a diode which is a sort of valve that only lets current pass in one direction. Thus for 1/2 the AC wave it would be blocked.
Also without a resistor then I would imagine after a short while the LED will blow.
The LED could have been used by putting it across the 2 wires from the power supply with an appropriate resistor to limit the current. In this configuration current would still pass in only one direction but the flickering would be so quick that you would still just see a lit led.
Steve
Thank you, do you think this why I have experienced so many problems with the other LED's because I had wired an LED in-line for their power too?
I did not know how to wire in an indicator, it was pure guesswork but it worked, albeit for a short period!
Many thanks, Peter.
Quote from: keithfre on July 05, 2015, 06:28:23 PM
Quote from: Steve.T on July 05, 2015, 06:15:45 PM
However it will not limit any current to say 20mA
Surely it will, Steve? Being a diode it will block half of the cycle completely (converting the AC into DC), and the DC half that it is allowing through cannot be much more than the working current, otherwise it will blow and there will be none.
Okay I agree the current will more than likely be less than 20 mA.
But the led will not actually limit the current to 20mA by virtue it is a 20mA led.
I think we have all established that the current will be greatly limited by fitting the LED in series and so long as Peter is aware of how to use an LED with current limiting resistor by fitting in parallel and not in series then I hope that has helped him out and is sufficient.
:beers:
Quote from: petercharlesfagg on July 05, 2015, 06:41:48 PM
Quote from: Steve.T on July 05, 2015, 05:57:29 PM
Peter,
If the LED was in line and on one of the wires from a 16 VAC power supply then only half of the AC current would pass through, at most.
Which is why it appeared to sap so much power.
The LED is a diode which is a sort of valve that only lets current pass in one direction. Thus for 1/2 the AC wave it would be blocked.
Also without a resistor then I would imagine after a short while the LED will blow.
The LED could have been used by putting it across the 2 wires from the power supply with an appropriate resistor to limit the current. In this configuration current would still pass in only one direction but the flickering would be so quick that you would still just see a lit led.
Steve
Thank you, do you think this why I have experienced so many problems with the other LED's because I had wired an LED in-line for their power too?
I did not know how to wire in an indicator, it was pure guesswork but it worked, albeit for a short period!
Many thanks, Peter.
That is a possibility Peter. :beers:
Quote from: petercharlesfagg on July 05, 2015, 06:41:48 PM
Thank you, do you think this why I have experienced so many problems with the other LED's because I had wired an LED in-line for their power too?
I did not know how to wire in an indicator, it was pure guesswork but it worked, albeit for a short period!
Many thanks, Peter.
If that is the case Peter then I would say there is a good chance.
And for short periods leds can stand higher currents than they are rated at but after a while they will blow, generally running very brightly until they do.
I hope you know how to put them in parallel across the two leads now (with the correct size resistor in series with the led). Then they will only get the current that is allowed by the resistance of the led plus the resistance of the resistor. If not then we can help further.
If it is AC then the polarity does not matter - any lead can go to either lead of the power supply.
Steve
Quote from: Steve.T on July 05, 2015, 06:48:58 PM
I hope you know how to put them in parallel across the two leads now (with the correct size resistor in series with the led). Then they will only get the current that is allowed by the resistance of the led plus the resistance of the resistor.
The best solution, as I understand it, is to use two LEDs wired in parallel, with the cathode of one LED connected to the anode of the other. A single LED could otherwise blow if the reverse voltage (the voltage the LED is trying to block) gets too high.
Oh dear !
what a load of,,
noise !
Peter does not need all this theory, debate, forward-reverse ( we did all that elswhere ! in many other threads interminably) all he needed to know was which wire to glue to what terminal, simples !
Having identified a possible - then became probable, area of misunderstanding about the words 'in-line' I leave y'all (whilst I go cook ) to determine what Peter actually did - - and then to tell him which wire to move to where, to put it all right, nurse.
!!!!!