Hi all,
I am about to purchase materials for baseboard construction - but thought I would check with all the experts on here for advice on my plans prior to spending. Please help where you can.
Location - Indoors (dedicated room) with good temperature control.
Mobility - Semi-permanent (not intending to exhibit at this stage - but may later so an option). On trestles.
Size - 2 x 5ft by 3ft boards (i.e. 10ft by 3ft).
Question 1: I was thinking of going with PSE 21mm x 44mm. Is this good enough? Is 18mm x 69mm better or worse?
Question 2: Is 9mm Plywood a good option for the top? Other suggestions?
Question 3: I was intending to have an internal bracing every 300mm in both directions (i.e. 3 braces on the 3ft side and 5 braces along the 5ft side. Is this sensible?
Any feedback welcome please.
Thanks in advance.
I have a 10 x 3 layout with a dedicated room, and I use 9 mm ply but I do recomend if you do get ply to paint it, nothing like added protection.
I used 60 x 40 studding from Wickes for my cross members and frame, only bought the studding because of the price.
Good luck with your build.
Sounds OK to me.
I use 9mm ply, 2"x1" PAR metric equiv and a good coat of varnish on everything, both sides and edges.
Don't forget to drill cable holes in the battens - a lot easier to do before attaching to the ply!
Dave G
Question 1.
I've used 21mm x 44mm and find it is fine for outside frames and cross braces.
Question 2.
I've used 9mm sundeala board and, if treated as per instructions, have found it doesn't warp and is a lot easier to work with than ply i.e. you can push track pins in with ease (although a pair of pliers is better ;D) and it has a certain amount of sound deadening quality despite the fact that whatever we use for baseboards we are creating, in effect, a drum which will resonate.
Question 3.
Your spacing of the bracing sounds OK but don't permanently fix them until you have checked where points will be on your track plan.
I did the same as Daveg, but used MDF instead of ply, because I had a few sheets left over. They were 4ft x 2ft sheets and I used a ladder frame on 1ft centres. As Mick says, don't fasten the cross braces in until you work out where the point motors go. I painted both sides with MDF primer to seal the surface. You can mix some brown acrylic in with the primer to tone it down.
It all sounds good to me but please remember 3 feet is a wide baseboard and if anything goes wrong (breakdown, derailment etc.) ye law of sod dictates it will always be on the other side! >:( :veryangry: :censored: :help:
Seriously, make sure you can always reach all parts easily when running trains.
I would go for the 18mm x 69mm - you don't need strength (unless you are going to walk on it) but you do need stiffness which the greater depth will give you (quite a bit) more of.
Of course, personally I would go for a different technology......... ;)
Cheers Jon :)
I agree with all that's been said except the idea of using Sundeala as it's too soft and will sag over time, even with a 12" spacing. I note that you say you are not planning to exhibit yet but may in the future. If you do , you will find that 5ft X 3ft boards are too big to transport easily. I feel that you would be better limiting your board width to 2ft and length to 4ft. I don't know how this will suit the available space, but some time now thinking about it now will save grief later.
Depends really how you intent to transport it, but like Steve says it needs thinking about now.
When I built mine it was always with a transit van in mind, and using a sack-barrow (which I already have) to move it around, so I built the boards 6'x3'. With 2' high back and end boards it all bolts together into a 6x3x2 wardrobe-sized box that goes through a standard house doorway on the barrow and I can assemble on my own into the 12'x3' layout :thumbsup:
Paul
I have found that 22x44 (2"x 1" planed) isn't deep enough for baseboards much over 3' in any direction. Much prefer at least 3" deep these days - 75mm - to prevent sagging, which will occurr even with cross-bracing. Box type all ply construction using, say, 6mm ply, is quite good and fairly lightweight. It can always be braced in the corner joints with small section softwood - either pinned or glued.
Sundela as a baseboard surface is a myth that just keeps going. Soft, saggy, fibreous material with no structural strength at all and not stable enough to be reliable as a top surface. Well, not the type I have encountered in the past.
Izzy
For the layout I've just started, I'm using three 2by4s, 18mm thick chipboards, solid enough yet not too heavy.
Eventually I plan to build a small frame so the 3 boards can be stacked on top of each-other to fit in the back of my car.
Although not directly relevant here, the current edition of Model Railway Journal (No. 239) has a good article by Gordon Gravett concerning planning a new exhibition layout where he goes in to detail about designing-in how to move the small layout (less than 8ft x 2ft) by car and get it into the exhibition venue. The focus is on weight reduction whilst retaining portability. Although planned as an 0 gauge layout the design work is equally applicable to N. The track plan is an interesting shunting layout using 4 points and a single slip. This would translate to N very well using a 4ft x 9 inch footprint. Worth a look in WHSmith's browsing section before purchase.
The edition also has an extensive article on St. Ruth - an excellent 2mm/ft layout based on Penzance in the diesel hydraulic era.
I can't understand the adverse comments regarding sundeala as I've been using it for 25 years now with no ill effects such as sagging ???
True - all my layouts have been constructed for indoor use, but that's what the OP stated.
Quote from: newportnobby on May 27, 2015, 01:53:22 PM
I can't understand the adverse comments regarding sundeala as I've been using it for 25 years now with no ill effects such as sagging ???
What about the Sundeala - has that sagged? :confused1:
Cheers Jon :)
Quote from: PostModN66 on May 27, 2015, 01:58:19 PM
Quote from: newportnobby on May 27, 2015, 01:53:22 PM
I can't understand the adverse comments regarding sundeala as I've been using it for 25 years now with no ill effects such as sagging ???
What about the Sundeala - has that sagged? :confused1:
Cheers Jon :)
:laughabovepost:
That's my point, Jon. I have sagged considerably in the last 25 years but the sundeala hasn't :-[
Yeah but you're held up with more than 2x1 pine these days. Bionic man ;D
unless sundelea is sealed all over, it does a BR sandwich impersonation at the edges! i had to replace 8 tops with ply - no problems since!±
Thank you to all those that took the time to reply and provide guidance. It is greatly appreciated.
Some interesting points raised regarding baseboard tops, dimensions, transportation etc. This is a good time for me to think again to make sure all aspects are considered before proceeding.
Experience gained from others is so valuable. It seems obvious now that the internal bracing should be added after the point positions have been decided - but I had not thought of something so simple. It's that sort of feedback and the willingness of others to offer advice that makes this forum such great value.
Thanks all.
9mm ply is very heavy, so consider that if you are going to use it for a mobile layout, try carrying an 8 x 4 sheet of the stuff and you will see what I mean.
It also varies a lot in quality from dealer to dealer, I looked at Wickes ply and it is a lot better than that at B & Q or Homebase, but none of those are of the same quality you get from a builders merchant.
For bracing you need depth of wood not thickness, so instead of PSE you could use strips of 9mm Ply glued and screwed, this would produce very stiff framework and be less likely to conflict with the placing of points.
At the club I go to we are are constructing an exhibition layout, the baseboards are made from 9mm ply, but in an open board type construction, at the moment with no scenery and minimal track they can be lifted with one hand, but are very strong.
I have used 9 mm on 70x 50 bullet proof. But- 9mm board is not easy to get short screws not to go through the board having trouble finding less than 1/2inch -13mm screws ??? Is it me not looking hard enough?
Quote from: Topcat on May 28, 2015, 08:36:53 PM
I have used 9 mm on 70x 50 bullet proof. But- 9mm board is not easy to get short screws not to go through the board having trouble finding less than 1/2inch -13mm screws ??? Is it me not looking hard enough?
Have you tried Screwfix?
Quote from: Geoff on May 28, 2015, 09:00:41 PM
Quote from: Topcat on May 28, 2015, 08:36:53 PM
I have used 9 mm on 70x 50 bullet proof. But- 9mm board is not easy to get short screws not to go through the board having trouble finding less than 1/2inch -13mm screws ??? Is it me not looking hard enough?
Have you tried Screwfix?
I wouldn't, I find that using decent Quality screws saves time and money in the long run. Try googling Spax screws and see if you can find a stockist near you.
Quote from: steve836 on May 28, 2015, 09:24:09 PM
Quote from: Geoff on May 28, 2015, 09:00:41 PM
Quote from: Topcat on May 28, 2015, 08:36:53 PM
I have used 9 mm on 70x 50 bullet proof. But- 9mm board is not easy to get short screws not to go through the board having trouble finding less than 1/2inch -13mm screws ??? Is it me not looking hard enough?
Have you tried Screwfix?
I wouldn't, I find that using decent Quality screws saves time and money in the long run. Try googling Spax screws and see if you can find a stockist near you.
Never ever had a problem with screws from Screwfix and I use them when needed, plus nothing has fell apart yet.
I've used screws from both Screwfix and Toolstation without any issues at all. I normally go with Toolstation for their Reisser screws, although I've used their own branded stuff with no problems.
Just to note too that Screwfix is a stockist of Spax screws.
Never heard of Spax or Reisser screws, I get mine in Lidl, not had any problems. I've also given up on ply or MDF, I use Celotex 2" thick insulation foam, very rigid, very light, cut it with a sharp kitchen knife. Comes in sheets from 4' x 18" up to 8' x 4'.
I glue it to hardboard or fibre board underneath and cork tiles for the top; the edges also require protection for which I use 9mm cladding; the only reason for the board under and cladding edges is protection from knocks.
It does mean wiring is best run in shallow channels cut in the surface and point motors either surface mounted or in holes cut into the foam (I use mostly wire in tube so point motors are not really a problem for me).
Just a few comments on previous posts:
The Sundeala of 25 years ago is not the same as the Sundeala of today, this was the reply from the manufacturers:
"That sounds like what was our 'A' board. We no longer make that I'm afraid.
We do still offer the light grey softer board as you describe, and we do do it in 3 thicknesses. 6,9 and 12mm. "
I went to a timber merchants and told them exactly what I was doing and what I wanted from the ply for and was sold Chinese ply, a load of rubbish, if you want decent ply get Finnish Birch ply, more expensive but far superior.
Inspect everything for defects before parting with your money.
Sundeala is a lovely surface to lay track on; I always use it, but on top of a layer of thin ply to add surface stiffness. Used this way you can also cut out small culverts and minor slopes. It is also easy to cut the troughs for WiT point operation. It probably helps deaden noise as well.
(In my case the thin ply in question is usually the top surface of a flush door....that's another story!)
Cheers Jon :)