My long-term plan is a layout based on the Settle-Carlisle in the late 70s / early 80s. I've been gradually building up stock for a few years - I am have a growing assortment of Mk1s and Mk3as (will also get some Mk2s when the new ones appear), and locos either bought or on the wanted list are classes 08, 25, 31, 40, 45, 46, 47 (plus a Deltic - every layout needs one! It must be on a railtour...). Just bought the new Farish Cumbrian Mountain Express set, which is ideal for this time period and can be the sole steam loco!
However, as regards freight wagons of that era my knowledge is very patchy, so I would welcome some advice on this - I'm aiming for a couple of mixed freight rakes, so I guess a mixture of vans and open wagons of various types? what would have been a typical formation?
As regards buildings, I keep an eye on ebay for the Hornby Lyddle End East models, a number of which are of S&C structures.
I figure that if I have a definite shopping list I am more likely to buy stock which fits into my plans, rather than succumbing to locos which I like the look of (I seem to have a particular weakness for Class 67s!).
Thanks
I lived on the GSW and I made many trips to Carlisle, in the early to mid 1980s
The GSW stock was Polmadie based
This included one train each way, between Glasgow Central and Leeds
The Leeds stock was Neville Hill based
Later they all became Polmadie based
All rakes were Mark 1 SK and BSK
The standard formation for GSW was four SK and one BSK
The Leeds was six SK and one BSK, or a BSK at each end and five SK
However, towards the end of the 1980s reliability became an issue
Some GSW sets were reduced to three SK and one BSK, or even two SK and two BSK
There weren't any regular Inter City services
However, some weekends would see a diversion via Blackburn
Normal WCML sets were used, priority given to Glasgow - Euston, Scotland - Plymouth, and Scotland - Penzance services
Furthermore, there was virtually no freight (one of the reasons the route was prepared for closure), compared to what there is now
On each day I visited there would be one or two freight in each direction, usually company trains with a Class 37
Charters during the week typically used the Lakeland Pullman (see Electra Graphics), which had just been refurbished
At the weekend there would be at least one steam hauled service
Sadly I never saw a Class 40, 45, 46 or 55 on this route
Equally, I never saw a Class 25 or 31, but they may have been used
Thanks!
I've recently bought a book with lots of photos - 'The Settle & Carlisle Route Revisted' by TG Flinders. This was published in 1985 and most of the photos are from the early 1980s - the 'local' services mostly seem to be 45-hauled, with the WCML diversions using 47s, and the freight mostly 40s. I think the 31s came a bit later.
Are you sure about 37s? I've not noticed any photos of them in the book.
WCML rakes including Mk3s mostly seem to have been around 9 coaches, something like 5xMk3a TSO, MK3a RFB, 2xMk3a FO, Mk1 BG - with aircon Mk2s and Mk1 kitchen cars sometimes appearing in place of Mk3s. I might need to compromise on the length here as even in N gauge that is a pretty long train!
Time period would be about 1983 to 1989
Usually visited Carlisle once or twice a month during the period March to October, it was too cold the rest of the year
I used to visit the train crew office shortly after arrival to find out what freight was due for the whole day
There was almost always a Class 37 to / from Newcastle, but sometimes there would be one to / from Leeds
Typical InterCity rakes -
Euston :
6 x TSO - RFM - FO - FO - NHA (sometimes one additional FO)
Cross Country :
TSO - TSO - BFK - TSO - TSO - RBR - TSO - TSO - BFK - TSO - TSO
Other rakes would be seen, but very rare via Blackburn
Quote from: davidinyork on May 25, 2015, 05:10:28 PM
I might need to compromise on the length here as even in N gauge that is a pretty long train!
A 2+8 HST is 5'+1/2" long:-
(http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m220/Sprintex1/res%20090521%20HST%20length_zpsltjwiwsa.jpg)
. . . so 9 MK3s and a 45 will be about 5'4" or 163cm :thumbsup:
Paul
Quote from: mjkerr on May 25, 2015, 05:35:57 PM
Time period would be about 1983 to 1989
Usually visited Carlisle once or twice a month during the period March to October, it was too cold the rest of the year
I used to visit the train crew office shortly after arrival to find out what freight was due for the whole day
There was almost always a Class 37 to / from Newcastle, but sometimes there would be one to / from Leeds
Typical InterCity rakes -
Euston :
6 x TSO - RFM - FO - FO - NHA (sometimes one additional FO)
Cross Country :
TSO - TSO - BFK - TSO - TSO - RBR - TSO - TSO - BFK - TSO - TSO
Other rakes would be seen, but very rare via Blackburn
:thumbsup:
What type of stock were the crosscountry rakes normally formed of?
I knew the line quite well during that time.
There are some photos here
https://www.flickr.com/photos/semmytrailer/sets/72157625625378472 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/semmytrailer/sets/72157625625378472)
I mostly remember mixed freights - usually class 25s and 40s.
I only remember class 45s on the Nottingham to Glasgow services that stopped around 83/84. Leeds to Carlisle were usually class 47s - but there were periods when class 25s were common in the early 80s and 31/4 were regular in the late 80s.
As for 47s there was quite a range and often they were from Scottish depots and I even saw NSE 47s in the late 80s.
Of course the green class 40 D200 was a regular on the Leeds to Carlisle in about 84 and I remember getting tired of it as I was still missing several class 47s.
I never saw a 37 on the S&C.
Matt
Quote from: Matt1974 on May 25, 2015, 06:05:34 PM
I knew the line quite well during that time.
There are some photos here
https://www.flickr.com/photos/semmytrailer/sets/72157625625378472 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/semmytrailer/sets/72157625625378472)
I mostly remember mixed freights - usually class 25s and 40s.
I only remember class 45s on the Nottingham to Glasgow services that stopped around 83/84. Leeds to Carlisle were usually class 47s - but there were periods when class 25s were common in the early 80s and 31/4 were regular in the late 80s.
As for 47s there was quite a range and often they were from Scottish depots and I even saw NSE 47s in the late 80s.
Of course the green class 40 D200 was a regular on the Leeds to Carlisle in about 84 and I remember getting tired of it as I was still missing several class 47s.
I never saw a 37 on the S&C.
Matt
:thumbsup:
Did the shove duffs ever put in an appearance? I need another 47 and 47701 in blue looks tempting...
I'm pretty sure the 47/7s never made the Leeds to Carlisle. Shame as I only saw 3 of those.
:)
Matt
Quote from: davidinyork on May 25, 2015, 05:46:12 PMCross Country :
TSO - TSO - BFK - TSO - TSO - RBR - TSO - TSO - BFK - TSO - TSO
What type of stock were the crosscountry rakes normally formed of?
Polmadie based Mark 2E TSO, 2D BFK, and 1 RBR
Quote from: Matt1974 on May 25, 2015, 06:18:32 PM
I'm pretty sure the 47/7s never made the Leeds to Carlisle. Shame as I only saw 3 of those.
:)
Matt
https://www.flickr.com/photos/nodding_pig/8448719976/in/photolist-dSzU6N-pRQtNB-admoF5 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/nodding_pig/8448719976/in/photolist-dSzU6N-pRQtNB-admoF5)
This is all I've found, so it was probably very rare!
Just had a glance through some Modern Railway Pictorial magazine's from around that time and came across a few images that maybe of use 47526(GD) SK,CK,BSK 10.00 Carlisle-Leeds.
31237 BSK,CK,CK,CK,BSOMK2a, 08.57 Leeds-Carlisle both dated 20/05/82.
31161(IM) same as above 17/05/82, CL31 SK,SK,SK,CK,BSK 16.25 Carlisle- Leeds 22/06/83
47483 BSO,TSO,TSOMk2c,TSO,TSO,TSOMk2c,TSO,BFKMk2c. 15.15 Glasgow-Nottingham 16/05/82 Apparently the last day of that service
before being diverted away from that route. The coaches on this formation not noted otherwise are Air conditioned but not sure if they are
d,e or f's. Other pics show Loco's and give service times but unable to make out the stock in detail
45119 16.36 Nottingham-Glasgow 8 MK1's 18/04/82.47111 10.00 Carlisle-Leeds Mk1's 8 Mk1's 19/05/82
47535 07.15 Nottingham-Glasgow 8 Mk1's 15/05/82 and finally an image of 55009 on Deltic Cumbrian Railtour 14/11/81 at Shipley comprising of unidentified Mk1 stock. As for freight vac fitted trains seem to be the norm,I also find plenty of useful info on Flickr.
Quote from: Matt1974 on May 25, 2015, 06:18:32 PMI'm pretty sure the 47/7s never made the Leeds to Carlisle. Shame as I only saw 3 of those
Class 47/7 were Haymarket based at the time, and tended to use route via Newcastle and Liverpool in order to visit Crewe or Doncaster Works
Once transferred to Eastfield then routed via Carlisle and Preston
Equally, they used this same route when being transferred away
Quote from: mjkerr on May 25, 2015, 05:35:57 PM
There was almost always a Class 37 to / from Newcastle
Can't say I recall 37s from Newcastle to Carlisle about then? Pacers, yes, but not 37s ... Now, 31s & 47s were used when the Pacers crapped out, maybe you're thinking of those ?
Quote from: MikeDunn on May 25, 2015, 08:33:52 PMCan't say I recall 37s from Newcastle to Carlisle about then?
Please refer to original post, the paragraph refers to freight services
Ironically, both routes often turned up Thornaby based Class 37s in the same day
Quote from: mjkerr on May 25, 2015, 09:15:26 PM
Please refer to original post, the paragraph refers to freight services
Seeing as your post went on about IC stock ... whatever ...
Quote from: MikeDunn on May 25, 2015, 09:26:00 PM
Quote from: mjkerr on May 25, 2015, 09:15:26 PM
Please refer to original post, the paragraph refers to freight services
Seeing as your post went on about IC stock ... whatever ...
Hi
I think you may have misread the post as it mentions company trains in the paragraph relating to the 37s. The reference to IC is in the paragraph above.
Cheers
Paul
Quote from: MikeDunn on May 25, 2015, 09:26:00 PMSeeing as your post went on about IC stock
The post is split into three main paragraphs
The first is the regional services, between Carlisle and Leeds
The second is the freight
The third are the diversions, which would see Inter City trains using the route
Back to the mags again 40192 8G15 Carlisle-Healey Mills consisted TTA 2x Tube then approx 18 16t Minerals with a Prestwin in the centre of the train and a standard brake at the rear 26/03/82.
25161 PW train usual engineers wagons from Ribblehead Quarry undated.
40169 4x Van Wide's pictured at Warcop 13/05/83.
I have a few pics of the line from that period on my Smugmug site here: http://glenbatten.smugmug.com/Routes-1/Settle-and-Carlisle/ (http://glenbatten.smugmug.com/Routes-1/Settle-and-Carlisle/)
Quote from: Glen B on May 26, 2015, 09:21:03 AM
I have a few pics of the line from that period on my Smugmug site here: http://glenbatten.smugmug.com/Routes-1/Settle-and-Carlisle/ (http://glenbatten.smugmug.com/Routes-1/Settle-and-Carlisle/)
:thumbsup:
Think there's a mistake in one of your captions - the loco listed as 47044 has ETS connections so is a 47/4.
Thank you! I'll correct that next editing session.
Just to resuscitate this thread, I've collected a representative collection of locos, mostly second-hand, over the past couple of years and am a fair way there with a representative selection of passenger carriages.
What I haven't tackled yet is freight stock, and I would welcome any advice on what would be suitable (preferably stuff which is reasonably easily available).
I'm reasonably well up with carriages, but my knowledge of freight stock is fairly lacking!
Thanks
Hello David,
To get the ball rolling there were three main locations I can think of on the S&C where freight traffic originated.
Horton-in-Ribblesdale had a ballast siding, where stone was loaded.
A typical train would be a Class 25 or Class 40 and dogfish type hoppers. Dapol used to do these, but they seem fairly difficult to come by nowadays. I have seen pictures of the larger bogie wagons in use too (Farish did these, but they only seem available in modern liveries at the moment), plus 13 ton mineral wagons in use, which are readily available. I am sure mermaids must have been used too, and they will be available soon courtesy of DJM!
Long Meg had a gypsum siding (still does?), but the hoppers in use on this were unique to this traffic. I think one of the railway mags covered this some time back. You might get away with 20 ton vac-brake hoppers, sheeted up - they always had tarpaulins when running loaded.
Class 40 or maybe 47 would be the power for this work.
Also there was MOD traffic from Warcop, a typical train might be a few Railfreight livery 4 wheel box vans, hauled by Class 25, 40, 45 or 47. I am not sure if low-loaders with tanks were transported to and from here?
There used to be through freight traffic, typically it might be 16 ton minerals and 4 wheel box vans, maybe the odd box van, and I've seen photos of steel carriers etc. During the Penmanshiel Tunnel collapse in 1979 there were many freights diverted this way from the ECML, but this sort of traffic tailed off after then with little through traffic.
Don't forget during WCML diversions van trains also got diverted via the S&C, so parcel vans could be needed too.
I am sure others will be able to add to my comments, but hope this is of some help.
Cheers
Paul
Ahhh, the (blurred) memories. As a young secondman at Holbeck from 1989 to 1983 I regularly worked over the S&C from Leeds to Carlisle (and back) on passenger trains or as far as Blea Moor on freight.
What I recall is:
- Nottingham - Glasgow expresses – Usually hauled by class 45s or 46s composed of rakes of Mk1s sometimes including a full brake carrying plastic sacks of brewery yeast (how do I know? You could smell it and I once saw it)
- Healey Mills – Carlisle Kingmoor freight - Usually class 40s hauling semi-fitted mixed goods and long fully fitted coal trains (16T wagons bauxite brown).
- Leeds - Blea Moor quarry ballast train (the smaller type wagons I think), hauled by class 25s or Class 40s.
- Class 47s tended to stand in for other types of traction on an ad hoc basis.
I don't remember ever seeing class 37s or class 20s on the S&C. Healey Mills drivers certainly weren't trained on 20s, Holbeck drivers certainly weren't trained on either class and I'd hazard a guess that it was the same for Skipton drivers, while Carlisle men I'm guessing didn't know class 37s.
Kevin
Thanks for the replies.
I see that Farish do 16T mineral wagons in bauxite. Would the slope-sided or straight sided ones be more appropriate, or did both appear? How many would normally have been in a rake? I sense I may have to compromise here or it'll get very expensive!
What wagon types would have been found in the mixed freight trains?
Thanks
Hi David,
The fully-fitted coal trains were very long, from 40 to 60 wagons. Flat-sided 16T wagons were used without the top flap above the door. As fully fitted trains they ran without a brakevan with the guard sitting in the rear cab of the loco. The mixed goods were really pretty much made up of everything in either fitted bauxite or unfitted grey (no or very few private owner wagons) that was running at the time, mainly short wheelbase stuff. I have a book with a couple of photos that I'll scan and upload if not today then tomorrow.
Kevin
I saw a '47-hauled nuclear flask train durinhttps://glenbatten.smugmug.com/Routes-1/Settle-and-Carlisle/i-9DBCQvJg a visit in 1981. Pic at
Fascinating to hear what people recall from the S & C in the 80s, although Kevin has me a bit worried owing to his time travelling tendencies...
Quote from: willike1958 on June 01, 2016, 06:04:31 PM
Ahhh, the (blurred) memories. As a young secondman at Holbeck from 1989 to 1983
Quote from: davidinyork on June 01, 2016, 06:41:07 PM
Thanks for the replies.
I see that Farish do 16T mineral wagons in bauxite. Would the slope-sided or straight sided ones be more appropriate, or did both appear? How many would normally have been in a rake? I sense I may have to compromise here or it'll get very expensive!
What wagon types would have been found in the mixed freight trains?
Thanks
David - you could maybe save money by purchasing the Peco kits for Butterley steel wagons (ref KNR44 - £3.50 at Hattons) and painting them yourself :hmmm:
Well spotted newportnobby. That should read 1979 to 1983. :dunce:
Hi,
Thanks for the input. I have to agree 37's were rare traction on the S&C in the early 1980s at least. I am sure by the late 1980's they may have started to appear. The 31's seem to have appeared a bit more once the Nottingham to Glasgow expresses finished. 40122 was obviously a passenger regular though from 1983....
A bit of shopping around and you might find those 16t minerals a bit cheaper. But I tend to do to my local model shop and buy a wagon or coach every week or so. Amazing how a rake can build up without seeming too debilitating to the wallet ;)
And brewer's yeast transferred by rail in the 80's. From what I remember it was pretty much consumed by the railway staff in those days....
Cheers,
Paul
Hello again,
A bit more thought (sorry, but it has been influenced by a large amounts of brewer's yeast, but seems to have actually assisted the thought processes on this occasion, as opposed to inhibiting them :))
31's were surely signed by Holbeck drivers, so would have worked that Horton in Ribblesdale ballast along with 25's. Agree this train seems to be more the smaller wagons.
26's - remember them working the Warcop MOD train quite a bit, perhaps more from 1984 onwards when they were air-braked?
Also remember a pair of Class 27's acting as Blea Moor standby in 1983 or 84. I don't think on this occasion they were called upon to rescue anything.
I am pretty sure that above memories are not the affect of brewer's yeast or varieties of hops consumed earlier.... :beers:
Cheers
Paul
Looks like Peco do ready to run 16T wagons as well as the kits:
http://www.ehattons.com/40411/Peco_Products_NR_44FC_BR_Butterley_steel_coal_wagon_in_bauxite_B174727/StockDetail.aspx (http://www.ehattons.com/40411/Peco_Products_NR_44FC_BR_Butterley_steel_coal_wagon_in_bauxite_B174727/StockDetail.aspx)
And not much more expensive, so think I'll buy a few of them at a time.
What type of box wagon would be suitable? Something like this?
http://www.ehattons.com/52939/Graham_Farish_373_703A_12_ton_ventilated_van_with_planked_sides_in_BR_Bauxite_Late_/StockDetail.aspx (http://www.ehattons.com/52939/Graham_Farish_373_703A_12_ton_ventilated_van_with_planked_sides_in_BR_Bauxite_Late_/StockDetail.aspx)
Hi David,
The bauxite 12 ton box vans seem to be common on through S&C traffic in the late 1970s. I have a few old box vans like these in railfreight livery - seemingly no longer produced - which were common on MOD traffic in the early to mid 1980s, including Warcop trips. I guess the longer wheelbase vans 373-054 and 373-055 were also used on trips to and from Warcop too, so may suffice.
Regards,
Paul
Hello David,
Had a look at you tube Class 46 46051 on the Warcop branch 1983. Very inspirational, and they definitely used RF livery longer wheelbase vans (and the short wheel-base vans0 on this branch looking at this video. This Jake Atkinson chap seems to have some fab, fab, fab videos on you tube. Sorry, won't have time to look at this forum for quite a few days now :no:
Oh, and 27004 on the Warcop Branch on a railtour (40012 seeming to be the power from the south) just viewed. Maybe a bit more expenditure required to complete your loco fleet ;)
Can't wait for the Farish 40s to appear - any bets on whether that will be before 2020ish :worried:
Quote from: davidinyork on June 01, 2016, 11:17:02 PM
What type of box wagon would be suitable? Something like this?
http://www.ehattons.com/52939/Graham_Farish_373_703A_12_ton_ventilated_van_with_planked_sides_in_BR_Bauxite_Late_/StockDetail.aspx (http://www.ehattons.com/52939/Graham_Farish_373_703A_12_ton_ventilated_van_with_planked_sides_in_BR_Bauxite_Late_/StockDetail.aspx)
That or the Peco NR43B :thumbsup:
Quote from: Mr PJ on June 01, 2016, 10:44:43 PM
31's were surely signed by Holbeck drivers, so would have worked that Horton in Ribblesdale ballast along with 25's. Agree this train seems to be more the smaller wagons.
Indeed they were trained on 31s Paul, but I don't recall having been on them when I was rostered on the ballast working. However, they did work double-headed on the Tilcon stone train to and from Grassington quarry near Skipton, which is almost on the S&C I suppose. As for what came from the North part way down the S&C, others will have a better idea than me.
Kevin
Quote from: Mr PJ on June 02, 2016, 12:11:37 AM
Oh, and 27004 on the Warcop Branch on a railtour (40012 seeming to be the power from the south) just viewed. Maybe a bit more expenditure required to complete your loco fleet ;)
Can't wait for the Farish 40s to appear - any bets on whether that will be before 2020ish :worried:
Hmm - have to draw the line with locos somewhere! I currently have: 08, 31, 40, 45, 4x47, 55 (must be on a railtour!) and Duchess of Hamilton. Plus a green 45 which might get a professional repaint. I'm on the lookout for a 25 and will probably get a new-tooling 40 when they appear, but think I'd better stop there!
I've just acquired a few more Mk3s (well, they were on offer!) to complete a diverted WCML rake. Having lined them all up on the floor, this really is a seriously long train at around five and a half feet (Class 47, 9xMk3s, Mk1BG). Think a fair amount of compromise is going to be required here - i.e. probably about half of them!
Incidentally, do others have problems getting Dapol and Farish coaches to stay coupled to each other? The Dapol Mk3s are fine coupled to other Dapol Mk3s, and likewise with Farish Mk1s which are OK with other Farish Mk1s, but as soon as you try to mix them the trouble starts. Both types have body-mounted couplers as well.
Some nice photos on the Jamerail Flickr site including of the S&C for the period you're looking at modelling, for example:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/95430950@N07/20794253155/ (https://www.flickr.com/photos/95430950@N07/20794253155/) (Class 25 on a ballast train)
https://www.flickr.com/photos/95430950@N07/20606254948/in/photostream/ (https://www.flickr.com/photos/95430950@N07/20606254948/in/photostream/) (Class 47 on Leeds-Carlisle service)
https://www.flickr.com/photos/95430950@N07/20784808332/in/photostream/ (https://www.flickr.com/photos/95430950@N07/20784808332/in/photostream/) (Class 31 on a Carlisle-Leeds service)
Further to my earlier emails, I'm assuming that the 31s started to be used when the Nottingham - Glasgow service got chopped back and ran with 4 or 5 coaches only
Kevin
I don't know if it is still relevant but there is
Lyddle End East Goods Shed on Ebay at the moment - and its not silly money either!