Not sure which section to put this in !
A few days ago I bought two Farish Seaside Excursion sets (why two ? that's a story that'll keep for another day ! )
The good news is that I have two very nice sets that seem to be continuing to run very nice after a few days, keep your fingers crossed !
Why do I beseech you to keep fingers crossed ? :-
Well the bad news is that the first two sets had to be returned after just a few days :(
The first one because the loco persistently derailed and frequently uncoupled its coaches :-
could not complete the oval without at least one but usually two derails when forwards clockwise, slightly better when going anticlockwise in reverse or strangly, anticlockwise forwards, the only way to keep it on track was to place the loco between the two coaches, pushing one - pulling the other, so in the hope that a period of running in like that it may improve ? ! , , nope after some time of despair it was returned to vendor who diagnosed a misalligned tender axle and a droopy coupling.
After being quizzed on "how long had I run it in" for and "was it on a proper baseboard" he hapilly exchanged the set.
All good so far.
However,
the second set had seemed a little sticky on slow running but eased / improved after running in but was never as smooth on creep as the replaced other set.
Then on the following day it developed a jack-rabbit tendency - could not creep, it woukld move forwards a half wheel turn (approx) and sieze up, requiring the controller to be considerably advanced whereupon it would take off at high rate of knotts ! :(
So, with some trepidation, I decided this also needed returning as there was no sign of it improving nor of it being a brief glitch.
Much consternation in the shop "we have sold lots of these, never had any returned" etc.
They agreed to replace it with less than good grace and informed me that if this happened again a replacement could not be provided and that it would have to be returned to BF for repair under warranty !
Perhaps if this had been one set needing replacing twice I might understand it.
But it was two sales, both faulty within an acceptance period ???
Now whatever the consumer rights / wrongs under sale of goods etc acts I am reluctant to buy another loco or set for fear of that being unsatisfactory and having to face that retailer again :( to have to argue a case :( :(
Is he right to be miffed, am I right to be more than a bit miffed, after all it isnt his fault that BF supplied him with faulty goods so his problem should be with BF
and it certainly wasnt my fault that he as agent for BF supplied me with faulty goods.
Grrr,
thanks for reading,
all thoughts about what to do /where to buy next are welcome.
My seaside set started off jumpy at slow speeds but after using for a while now its running OK, but I nearly sent mine back but now I am glad I have not.
I do feel the QC is not upto scratch and maybe this is why the price of Loco's are high but with sets you seem to get a bargain if the Loco's run well.
Yes you were correct to return not up to scratch goods.
It's the retailer's problem, not yours.
Relevant legislation is the Sale of Goods Act 1979:
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1979/54 (http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1979/54)
In particular, section 14.
Thanks Geoff & David
yes, interesting thoughts on QC and are we paying for the lack of it :(
Cheaper to supply 2 out of 4 and charge us double for doing it ourselves instead of a QC at the factory.
Also in one of my readings (I think it was a Trading Standards site) that Warranties are extra and in addition to our rights to the supply of satisfactory goods, not an alternative or replacement for faulty goods until after one has accepted them as satisfactory.
My other problems are :
should I continue to support my local dealer ** ( I had intended soon to get a Princess Coronation and, when they arrive, a Jinty )
and secondly it has removed the pleasure of running the things - instead of turning on to admire the ingenuity of the Farish mechanism I find myself turning on to see if it still works and for how long more ?
** PS these were my first two from him, I had long been looking forward to the arrival of the 4Fs to get started on my Nterprise !!
Oddly the loco in my Seaside Excursion set had to be returned as one of the electrical contacts on the tender drawbar was too short and didn't make proper contact. Luckily I bought it from my local shop and the loco was swapped with one from another set (after inspection) and that set (I presume) returned to Bachmann.
But I'm sure the few faulty locos that we're all talking about represent a minority of all the sets sold. After all I got a good loco the second time around. To get two faulty sets in one go does seem especially unfortunate.
I've not had the best luck with Graham Farish locos recently. I bought a Black Five that I had for two hours (plus travelling time between shop and home) where the front bogie came adrift just as it came to the end of running in. It was the last one in the shop so the dealer obtained and fitted a replacement screw.
In the interests of fairness I've had 20 or so Graham Farish locos (or MU power cars) that haven't been faulty, and a similar number from Dapol.
To my mind your 'contract' is with your local dealer in that you paid him to supply goods and he accepted your money. The fact he has supplied shoddy goods (albeit not his fault) still suggests to me it doesn't matter if he supplies you 10 sets and they are all faulty, he is duty bound to replace them with suitably good sets as he has pocketed your dosh, not Farish.
If you purchased a new car, then had it replaced, then that one developed a fault and was replaced, would you accept your dealer telling you that was the last time and that, in future, you must deal with the manufacturer? I don't think so! :no:
We shouldn't be fobbed off by retailers into dealing direct with manufacturers when it's the retailer who has taken our money. By all means send a complaining letter to Farish but I'd pursue the retailer - to the Small Claims Court if necessary.
Quote from: johnlambert on April 11, 2015, 09:58:34 PMTo get two faulty sets in one go does seem especially unfortunate.
In the interests of fairness I've had 20 or so Graham Farish locos (or MU power cars) that haven't been faulty,
Thanks for your statistics John, interesting.
I think there is a joke hiding in there, I'm glad you didnt quote "The Importance of Being Ernest" to "get One is unfortunate, to get Two is downright careless" LOL :)
OK on 20 good ones but you didnt say how many faulty ones you have had in total, at the mo. I am running 50%, but not a sufficiently large sample to be (yet) statistically significant, hmmm where are my chi^2 tables ! :)
Actually I am more miffed with the vendor than BF
We know the price from BF of a satisfactory one, all we need then to know is that we will (eventually?) receive one,
but one does not expect (cue Monte) the Spanish Inquisition, no one , , , (/Python)
I don't buy that many locos, but over the past few years I've had a several (5 that I can immediately recall) which have developed faults when running in - mostly the circuit board being at fault. This has happened with both Dapol and Farish locos. They have been either replaced, repaired or refunded.
Modern models with lights and DCC sockets are all well and good, but frankly I'd rather them without if they can't get the circuitry up to scratch. These are not complicated circuit boards, so it didn't ought to be beyond the wit of man. With models such as the 08 there's no circuitry and consequently much less to go wrong. Or there's the Kato system, where as I understand it the circuit board which comes in non-DCC locos is not much more than a collection of wires, and anyone wanting to fit DCC replaces this with a Kato decoder circuit board.
Quote from: newportnobby on April 11, 2015, 10:03:05 PM
To my mind your 'contract' is with your local dealer ,
he is duty bound to replace them with suitably good sets
By all means send a complaining letter to Farish
Exactly so ! 100% Yes, his beef should be with Farish, not me.
Interesting you say about a letter,
actually I have been thinking that maybe he has problems with Farish ( of no concern to me) and I had further been thinking that he could have a letter from me (to be forwarded to themBF ) expressing my unhapiness that my poor local retailer was having all these terrible problems trying to supply us, his customers, with satisfactory goods,
see the way I am thinking !!! :) :)
It does seem that there are far more positive experiences of this loco than otherwise, and mine are definitely in this camp.
I now have four new 4Fs. One is from the Seaside Excursions set, the other three solo locos. All run absolutely superbly, and have done from the first time they were put on the track. Luck of the draw possibly and I am certainly not saying I have never encountered any problems with Farish locos, but I just do not seem to experience the same level of issues that some others seem to.
Roy
Actually, a good upshot is that I now have two 'railway' rooms,
1) my real railway room, aka spare bedroom.
and
2) this room, one of the domestic living rooms, where I do my computing, TV watchind etc&etc and now for good measure, for testing purposes you do understand ? , I have an extra circle of R2 pizza so I dont have to go into that other room to watch a train going round !!!!
hope you are enjoying your new trains
you could ask the shop to test them while you are there watching? most shops i have been in have a plank of wood with a test track on. one actually tested a loco for me without me even asking them to which i thought was good.
cheers,
tim
Quote from: Roy L S on April 11, 2015, 10:53:10 PM
It does seem that there are far more positive experiences of this loco than otherwise,
,
I now have four new 4Fs.
Yes my impression also,
usually on the interweb one hears all the complaints and not so many +ves, but as you say, with this one there are loads more good than bad,
so imagine my surprise, nay sadness, when my first two were duds !
,
4 now is it !!! Well actually, my plan was for an eventual 3, but kinda nipped in da bud for the time being :(
I have two of the new 4F's both run very nicely but overall the quality of loco's does seem a bit under par. Of the 12 loco's I have bought in the last year, all new, three have had to go back for various faults. A twenty five percent failure rate is pretty dismal.
I cant however say it's just one manufacturer all three where different makes !
Dapol - Class 22 body wobbled like a drunken duck when running.
Farish - Class 70 wouldnt run in one direction and ran intermittanly in the other.
Arnold - Brighton Belle (1969) Faulty lights
Quote from: MalcolmAL on April 11, 2015, 10:18:38 PM
Quote from: johnlambert on April 11, 2015, 09:58:34 PMTo get two faulty sets in one go does seem especially unfortunate.
In the interests of fairness I've had 20 or so Graham Farish locos (or MU power cars) that haven't been faulty,
Thanks for your statistics John, interesting.
I think there is a joke hiding in there, I'm glad you didnt quote "The Importance of Being Ernest" to "get One is unfortunate, to get Two is downright careless" LOL :)
OK on 20 good ones but you didnt say how many faulty ones you have had in total, at the mo. I am running 50%, but not a sufficiently large sample to be (yet) statistically significant, hmmm where are my chi^2 tables ! :)
Actually I am more miffed with the vendor than BF
We know the price from BF of a satisfactory one, all we need then to know is that we will (eventually?) receive one,
but one does not expect (cue Monte) the Spanish Inquisition, no one , , , (/Python)
In total; three faulty Graham Farish locos, there was also a Farish 3MT tank with wheels that weren't round. So that's a 15% failure rate by my maths. I don't know if I should count the LMS Coronation Pacific that I didn't buy because of paint defects. I haven't included a different 3MT tank that locked its motion on the dealer's test track; it was second hand so might have been damaged by a previous owner and not faulty due to poor manufacturing.
And I think I might have had Oscar Wilde's famous quote in mind ;)
Quote from: johnlambert on April 11, 2015, 11:21:07 PM15% failure rate by my maths. I don't know if I should count the LMS Coronation Pacific that I didn't buy because of paint defects.
And I think I might have had Oscar Wilde's famous quote in mind ;)
15% is ok, let's hope I eventually achieve that, swmbo is not impressed at the mo. !
Yep new paint defects would count in my statistics but no, not the (uncontrolled sample) second hand
:) Ok Ernest :)
But anyway folks, we seem to have all drifted into BF faults QC etc&etc cf other manufs.
whereas my main sadness was the response of my dealer who seemed to be suggesting that it was (would become) my problem and that I would have to accept a warranty solution in future.
Point taken Malcolm, re comment towards end of your last posting ............
However, taking into account some colleagues' comments in the thread, regarding their recent purchases, I wonder how that leaves those who have bought from "overseas sources" and perhaps encountered problems?
Some years ago, the practice of buying new cars from outside UK and the apparent associated financial savings was countered by stories of "difficulties" with local dealers when faced with warranty or service issues.
In the last week or two, I have been very interested to see the take up (reported on NGF) of very modestly priced Class 37 and I wonder has everyone been "lucky" with their purchases in terms of performance/quality? In the event that a problem may have been encountered, what action followed?
Apologies, once again, for straying from the main theme of your posting
Adrian
Yet again, if posting are accurate, it seems the failures are concentrated in the hand of a few modellers and others have few or no failures...
It can't be just random distribution, so what is it?? Is it those modellers handling of the locos? (probably not in this case as they are straight out of the box) or the modellers willingness to fix minor issues themselves (possibly) or the dealers used (there have been allegations of some retailers reselling returned items and not returning to Bachmann).
For what it's worth, between all of us in the Hull N gauge crew, the only loco with multiple out of the box failures was the Farish 3MT...
Good points you raise there PLD!
Quote from: PLD on April 12, 2015, 08:07:17 AM
or the modellers willingness to fix minor issues themselves
You raise some interesting questions !
I dont think "willingness to fix" applies for "out of the box".
Or if you think it should then I would say "only with the agreement of the retailer" because you would otherwise leave yourself in trade dispute difficulties if the retailer was not co-operative 'after the event' ( He may have been co-operative if you had consulted him first but there is no reason why he should be if you have been 'fiddling' previously )
So, if you are going back** to the retailer in that case anyway then the retailer can propose the solution for your agreement.
If however you have accepted the goods as satisfactory and later something unfortunate happens then that is when warranties may apply and willingness to fix becomes appropriate, but again I would say only with the agreement of the retailer else you risk breaking the warranty agreement.
EDIT ** PS I mean by that "contacting the retailer" to cover the case where you are some distance away, did not apply in my case. If he agrees that it would be reasonable for you to fix it, ie. he thinks / believes that you are competent, then yes, why not.
Quote from: Adrian on April 12, 2015, 06:40:40 AM
I wonder how that leaves those who have bought from "overseas sources" and perhaps encountered problems?
Without a leg to stand on ! I think !!
It seems to me that the retailers are caught between a rock and a hard place. If the retailers are responsible for the goods that they are selling and the goods have QC issues then it is the dealers problem in the first instance, but in the bigger picture it should come down to the quality of the goods that they are trying to sell. Statistics requires large sample sizes to establish failure rates on goods, and I understand that some buyers might be very lucky in not having any problems with a relatively small number of loco purchases. My experience has been out of 8 Dapol and Farish locos that I have bought, 2 had totally unacceptable running problems and another 2 had marginally acceptable performance. If the true failure rate of locos were 15%, then I would have to be very unlucky in statistical terms with my purchases. Even if the failure rate were 15%, which I think is low based on this forum posts and others, this is far too high.
I live in Australia and locomotive failure is a real nuisance. My purchases are necessarily online and I don't have the luxury of going down to the local model shop and complaining. To be fair, when I have a dud, the seller has always provided a replacement even though here is a rigmarole involved. The bottom line is that Farish and Dapol manufacture beautiful and detailed looking locos, but their mechanical and electrical designs are not up to scratch. This is the fundamental problem.
Webbo
Totally agree with Webbo, nicely put.
Another thing wrong with PLDs analysis ( apart from trying to distinguish those who feel capable from those who are over confident in their abilities ! )
if something is easily fixable then my retailer could easily have fixed it himself, or, in friendly fashion, shown me how to do it and then I would have learned something.
Well actually he did with one problem, but could not with the other problems,,, obviously ! else he would not be proposing to return to BF so willingness is a red-herring or a hobby-horse.
Quote from: PLD on April 12, 2015, 08:07:17 AM
Yet again,
"Yet Again" ! :)
Anyway, y'all be pleased to know that the replacements are still running beautifully this morning ( I hope that does not over-tempt providence :) ! )
Malcolm
I actually thought PLD raised some interesting points.
Agree that Webbo made a good post.
Cheers
Dan
Quote from: DesertHound on April 12, 2015, 10:36:01 AM
Malcolm
I actually thought PLD raised some interesting points.
Agree that Webbo made a good post.
Cheers
Dan
Yes Dan,
so did I :wave: :->
Quote from: MalcolmAL on April 12, 2015, 09:50:49 AM
Quote from: PLD on April 12, 2015, 08:07:17 AM
or the modellers willingness to fix minor issues themselves
You raise some interesting questions !
:laughabovepost:
I think we have probably thrashed this one to death enough now ? (for this week LOL! )
>>> back to playing testing trains >>>>
Sorry Malcolm ... it all seems lost on me today ???
I'll retire to something else for the afternoon ;D
Quote from: MalcolmAL on April 12, 2015, 10:52:44 AM
Quote from: DesertHound on April 12, 2015, 10:49:47 AM
Sorry Malcolm ... it all seems lost on me today ???
I'll retire to something else for the afternoon ;D
No prob Dan :)
Gosh is it afternoon already over there :) :) :) means it soon will be over here as well and I have yet to achieve anything much today, , , better go get another coffee :)
Yes, back to three hours time difference (ahead) for the summertime. Makes the world of difference from the four hours in the winter - especially if you want to watch UK telly of an evening ;D
I really sympathise with shop owners or traders but how many times have I heard that before...
QuoteMuch consternation in the shop "we have sold lots of these, never had any returned" etc.
You shouldn't feel guilty returning anything on a
genuine basis though. I wished I did it years ago with a few of my first purchases. I haven't bought any new loco's bar 1 in about 18 months now because I remember hassles before -but you shouldn't let that put you off otherwise you just wouldn't bother with the hobby at all.
...It's entirely possible one person can get all the "duds" and the other person get none, just as much as possible for it to be random. I think the "duds" are to be fair probably relatively few, but I know how it feels 1st hand when you get a run of them!
Rich
Ach, actually I probably mis-placed the quotes. 99% of suppliers are NOT going to say "flip sake, third time this week".
...I feel sympathy because the QC hasn't been done before and it looks bad on the shop (unless you're ebay nobody knowingly sells on dodgy stuff), the buck stops with the shop without question though, it's then their beef with their supplier.
...I've gone off buying things these days when I can't see it out the box / running beforehand.
I envy you guys. My local shop is around about 250 km up the road in Sydney and there I have to pay about 50% more than the RRP price in the UK. So, I buy online and returning items when they fail costs me 10 GBP or so in postage. I would be happy to try to fix items myself but am afraid that such efforts would jeopardise my chances for a shop or a warranty replacement.
The issue of the failure rate of Farish and Dapol equipment is not frivolous. I can do statistics, and I know that my failure rate of 2 locos out of 8 would be quite unlikely unless the failure rate of locos overall were greater than 10%. The first post in this thread asks questions about problems resulting from the purchase of two Farish sets. The issue of QC for British outline is a not uncommon topic on model forums. To be blunt, the QC and design for Farish and Dapol is not up to scratch in my opinion. I model North American mainly and out of 35 locos purchased (mostly Atlas and Kato) the only problem that I've ever had was a squeaky drive bearing on a Kato that was easily fixed with a dab of oil.
Don't get me wrong, I would dearly love for things to be different. The British are known for their penchant for getting by, but things could be better and you guys should not have to put up with substandard product from your manufacturers. In the meantime I suggest that anyone purchasing locos make sure that they run them for a while before the warranty runs out.
Webbo
Sorry about my previous post folks. It is mostly a repeat of what I said before a few posts back. I broke my own resolution of not posting or of buying anything on EBay when I've had more than a couple of glasses of wine.
However, my last point about making sure that locos are tested and preferably run in within a year of purchase is one that I would like to emphasise. I'm sure there are many modellers out there who purchase numbers of locos well before they have a running layout (Mea culpa). If they find eventually that there is a problem with a purchase, it may be too late to do anything about it.
Webbo
Quote from: Webbo on April 16, 2015, 11:35:18 PM
However, my last point about making sure that locos are tested and preferably run in within a year of purchase is one that I would like to emphasise. I'm sure there are many modellers out there who purchase numbers of locos well before they have a running layout (Mea culpa). If they find eventually that there is a problem with a purchase, it may be too late to do anything about it.
Webbo
That's a very good point.
I had an over-running kitchen project that meant the dishwasher and oven ran out of warranty while they were still in the spare bedroom. How nervous was I when the oven didn't (at first) work??? :o
This has been putting me off N Gauge for some time:- I have experience of Poole era Farish locos from about 20 years ago (and never had a problem [luckily, not even any split gears!]) and have one or two locos from about the time of the Farish/ Bachmann changeover, plus a few Dapol locos from about the same time (including 14xx with huge 'pizza cutter' flanges.
My project at the time stalled, but all still seem to run ok.
When I see posts regarding poor running it puts me off - I realise these posts are more likely to happen than posts saying 'I just bought one and there are no problems (and I appreciate many people probably but them and have no problems!) but these complaints seem to be more prevalent in N than 00, .... Or is that just my perception?
Quote from: sp1 on April 21, 2015, 02:16:41 PM
This has been putting me off N Gauge for some time:- I have experience of Poole era Farish locos from about 20 years ago (and never had a problem [luckily, not even any split gears!]) and have one or two locos from about the time of the Farish/ Bachmann changeover, plus a few Dapol locos from about the same time (including 14xx with huge 'pizza cutter' flanges.
My project at the time stalled, but all still seem to run ok.
When I see posts regarding poor running it puts me off - I realise these posts are more likely to happen than posts saying 'I just bought one and there are no problems (and I appreciate many people probably but them and have no problems!) but these complaints seem to be more prevalent in N than 00, .... Or is that just my perception?
Hello there and welcome to the forum, one thing please do not be put off, I for one have a number of Graham Farish and Dapol Locos and they all run fine, I think you will find the odd loco that does not perform well and if that is the case then change your loco do not forget you have rights.
I think this post has gone down the wrong path and it does not help any one coming into the hobby.
I am sure you will be fine with the new Farish and Dapol Loco's.
Hi, and welcome to the forum :wave:
Quote from: sp1 on April 21, 2015, 02:16:41 PM
but these complaints seem to be more prevalent in N than 00, .... Or is that just my perception?
Without any hard and fast figures to back my theory up, I would say complaints are on a par between N and 00 but only joining an 00 forum would provide proof, that or hearing from someone who runs both gauges. You only have to look at the number of pages in our 'Angry Thread' as opposed to the 'Happy Thread' to know that we all like a good moan more than we do giving praise sadly.
Quote from: Geoff on April 21, 2015, 02:46:22 PM
Quote from: sp1 on April 21, 2015, 02:16:41 PM
This has been putting me off N Gauge for some time:- I have experience of Poole era Farish locos from about 20 years ago (and never had a problem [luckily, not even any split gears!]) and have one or two locos from about the time of the Farish/ Bachmann changeover, plus a few Dapol locos from about the same time (including 14xx with huge 'pizza cutter' flanges.
My project at the time stalled, but all still seem to run ok.
When I see posts regarding poor running it puts me off - I realise these posts are more likely to happen than posts saying 'I just bought one and there are no problems (and I appreciate many people probably but them and have no problems!) but these complaints seem to be more prevalent in N than 00, .... Or is that just my perception?
Hello there and welcome to the forum, one thing please do not be put off, I for one have a number of Graham Farish and Dapol Locos and they all run fine, I think you will find the odd loco that does not perform well and if that is the case then change your loco do not forget you have rights.
I think this post has gone down the wrong path and it does not help any one coming into the hobby.
I am sure you will be fine with the new Farish and Dapol Loco's.
Well, speaking from experience I have never had any major problems with new OO gauge locos, but a number of problems with N gauge. In particular, it's normally the circuit boards which are the issue, and I've never had this with OO Gauge. I very rarely buy OO gauge stuff now, but I do have a number of modern locos (Hornby HSTs particularly) with circuit boards, and all have been fine.
I would have, should have, reported back earlier, except that I have been running them and , waiting, yes waiting for them to go wrong !!* It has taken some of the pleasure out of it and if it had not been for encouragement from the domestic staff, I might have given up :( And then I bought a J39 and that needed running a while as well :) :)
So, herewith an interim report : all three locos now running very well, very smooth, very nice crawl / slow creep, cant report yet on pulling power cos I have not got enough coaches and/or wagons (yet :) )
sp1, I dunno what to say, except welcome to the forum,
* 3 duds followed by 3 guduns is my statistic.
Of the 26 locos I've bought in the past 2 1/2 years, only one has had to go back for replacement (a Dapol Ivatt 2-6-2T). A few have been 'rough runners' at first but a little oil and a good running-in session have seen them improve greatly. I appreciate that other people have had different experiences but it is useful to have a different story to the '(some) N gauge locos are rubbish' scenarios that are usually posted to Forums (Forii?)
Quote from: sp1 on April 21, 2015, 02:16:41 PM
This has been putting me off N Gauge for some time:- I have experience of Poole era Farish locos from about 20 years ago (and never had a problem [luckily, not even any split gears!]) and have one or two locos from about the time of the Farish/ Bachmann changeover, plus a few Dapol locos from about the same time (including 14xx with huge 'pizza cutter' flanges.
My project at the time stalled, but all still seem to run ok.
When I see posts regarding poor running it puts me off - I realise these posts are more likely to happen than posts saying 'I just bought one and there are no problems (and I appreciate many people probably but them and have no problems!) but these complaints seem to be more prevalent in N than 00, .... Or is that just my perception?
Even though I believe that there are significant QC issues with Farish and Dapol, one should not be put off buying their stuff. I'm certain that the majority of purchases are fine, even though the failure rate is perhaps higher than is desirable. I will continue to buy Farish and Dapol gear because I like British outline and both manufacturers make wonderful looking locos. However, the purchaser does need to be diligent about ensuring purchased locos are tested properly within the return and warranty timeframes. Having to returning dud locos is a nuisance, but it is certainly not a game changer for me.