N Gauge Forum

Hello

As well as offering £50 off of two Brighton Belles the promotional email from Hornby says "Plans are already underway for the next additions to our Arnold British N gauge range. We would love to know what you think we should be making, tell us here on the Hornby Forum"

http://www.hornby.com/forum/n-gauge-wishlist (http://www.hornby.com/forum/n-gauge-wishlist)

Best regards
Michael

Signed up and made a list of Steam locos, one that sprang to mind was the B4 dock tank, the Peco/Wills kit is long gone, that fitted an Arnold chassis so that might be an easy starter.

Just had a quick glance through the Arnold range, that 0-4-0T does not seem to be around now, in fact not much choice of steam either, 4-6-2, 2-8-2, 4-8-2, 2-8-0 and 2-10-0, or 0-6-0T, among the latter was the USA tank as used by the SR post WW2, however that is probably 1:160 plus it's too late for my period - 1930s

They could beat Dapol and GraFar by being the first to make a RtR Class 92 Electric loco.
A Class 172 DMU would be a good modern scene addition.

For steam era how about a decent 8F model? Very popular  loco and could do with an update in the model world.

Whatever they do it's good to see investment in the British an Gauge market.

I think it will have to be something iconic,
Maybe one of the LMS/LNER streamlined trains, APT-P?
Adelante or Trans Pennine Desiro.
Possibly a running mate for the Brighton belle?
Just my guesses but whatever turns up it can only be good for N Gauge as a whole.
Cheers
Mark

I was going to suggest the APT but then thought if Rapido Trains are doing it in 00 and the Pendolino is the success I hope it will be they might downsize it to N I would persuade the Family to get me one .
That would be fantastic.
Bob

I'd echo the comments that whatever they decide to do will be good for N gauge, and it's a sign that their first venture into the scale has gone well enough for them to want to continue. It's nice to see Hornby engaging with "us lot" to see what we want, rather than just deciding for us. Their occasional presence on this very forum would be even nicer, in order to get a proper discussion going like we used to have with Dapol before Dave left, and like Rapido have with their customers. The fact that many of us grew up with Hornby probably means the brand loyalty is already there, I don't think they'd have much trouble becoming a big player in N.

The aforementioned Adelante would probably be a good seller. It has "impulse buy" potential as it looks sleek, it's been seen in multiple liveries and geographical areas, is only five cars long so would be suitable for all but the smallest of layouts, yet those with more space could also run them in multiple as happens on occasion (morning Oxford services quite a few years ago IIRC?)

My own suggestion would be the Class 142, which I suppose is iconic in its own little way. Hornby already have their own blueprints for them, they've covered vast parts of the country, have been around for 30 years in dozens of liveries, often run in multiple and are so short that fitting a number of them onto a layout doesn't take much space. I'd immediately buy four of them, possibly more.

Beating Dapol to a release probably wouldn't be a massive challenge.

JB

I am very encouraged by Hornby's interest in N gauge. As others have eluded to - I don't think it matters too much what they produce. The important thing is there is another player in the market which adds to the competition and hopefully will widen the range of products available and hopefully improve the quality and reliability. I, for one, am not looking for price reductions but better quality, reliability and variety.
:beers:

I think that they could do a lot worse than a really nicely packaged complete "Rocket" train. Clearly a challenge to engineer, but with modern tiny pager motors available, more feasible than it's ever been. That or a Stirling Single...

Quote from: Gnep on February 20, 2015, 09:45:16 PM
I think that they could do a lot worse than a really nicely packaged complete "Rocket" train. Clearly a challenge to engineer, but with modern tiny pager motors available, more feasible than it's ever been. That or a Stirling Single...

I think that might be a bit of a niche market - nice all the same!

I've had my say. If you want a particular loco - now's your chance !

Hornby's ears are open....

I'd love them to shrink the 2BIL, 2NOL, M7 or king Arthur. Some early southern stock would be most welcome.
HOWEVER...
I think the most sensible choice if I was running things would be an LMS, LNER or GWR loco. The more layouts with Hornby products on the better for future models in our preferred regions. We all need to share to start with :)
Then we can become tribal later  :D

I've put in my tuppence worth. Great news that are looking to increase their N gauge range but looks like it's quite a while away if there only just consulting on it now - hopefully they've got something else up their sleeve for the meantime.

This is good news but it would be wicked if Hornby would start a handful of projects that would bring N gauge to the forefront of N Gauge modelling, it would really be good to know how many N Gauge locos are sold a month and no doubt the market is getting larger for Hornby to feel the water, so the more people respond to there requests the more serious they will feel in starting more projects.

Thanks Michael for the link.

something iconic like a pendolino?

oh...wait.....

Quote from: Zakalwe on February 20, 2015, 10:05:22 PM
something iconic like a pendolino?

oh...wait.....

Nahh! bring on the steam stuff!!
:beers:

It might de a good idea if Hornby asked OO gauge modellers what they wanted instead of knocking out an endless stream of Flying Scotsmans and Mallards.

Having said that maybe an improved remake of the steam and diesel models that were made under the Hornby Minitrix brand might be a good place to start.

Quote from: Mr chapman on February 20, 2015, 09:56:17 PM
I'd love them to shrink the 2BIL, 2NOL, M7 or king Arthur. Some early southern stock would be most welcome.
HOWEVER...
I think the most sensible choice if I was running things would be an LMS, LNER or GWR loco. The more layouts with Hornby products on the better for future models in our preferred regions. We all need to share to start with :)
Then we can become tribal later  :D

OK, just been there and its a southern landslide. Sod being nice, Southern avengers assemble!

Quote from: austinbob on February 20, 2015, 10:13:57 PM

Quote from: Zakalwe on February 20, 2015, 10:05:22 PM
something iconic like a pendolino?

oh...wait.....

Nahh! bring on the steam stuff!!
:beers:

Zackly, save oil, bring back steam!

I've just been over and sorted them out!
They seemed short of idea's!

Cheers
Mark

Quote from: Dorsetmike on February 20, 2015, 11:20:59 PM
Zackly, save oil, bring back steam!

Dont forget the oil-fired steamers

I think they should do an Electrostar.

Did you notice in that email the incorrect price of £119 per set? - if only.

Anyone who suggests a Pendolino gets struck off! No seriously some sensible ideas which I hope hornby take up. I guess they will go for something reasonably big ticket.

Cheers Mike

Quote from: Elvinley on February 21, 2015, 12:25:21 AM
Did you notice in that email the incorrect price of £119 per set? - if only.

Yep, on the web page as well  !
http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=26386.msg285923#msg285923 (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=26386.msg285923#msg285923)
and see AustinBob's reply :)

Sadly the shopping basket did not maintain the illusion :(

I have politely asked them if they will honour the email which I received. I'll let you know the answer  :thumbsup:

Hats off to Hornby Arnold, and more of this please.
I would love to see the full APT-P or any modern EMU or DMU. just been over their with my thoughts.
  Regards Derek.

Being from east anglia I'd love to see some of the units that aren't available in any gauge rtr such as the 365 or 321. As previously mentioned an adelante would be excellent as well.

Had  look at the posts to date, surprised and glad to see a number of requests for SR items particularly steamers like Nelson and Arthur.

I also note a few requests for Flying Scotsman and other locos which are already available from other manufacturers, surely we need something new, not more versions of same old, same old. We don't really need iconic all the time the mundane 4-4-0 and 0-6-0 are sadly lacking, apart from Union Mills. There were far more of them than larger types on the real railways.

For the benefit of Hacker and Bashem Ltd a 4-4-2 and maybe 0-4-2 would be welcome. Also why must just about every loco produced be a type which survived into BR days.

I suspect almost a Catch 22 situation, they don't make them cos almost nobody models pre BR/ nobody models pre BR cos there's almost no stock made.

Quote from: MalcolmAL on February 21, 2015, 12:41:05 AM

Quote from: Elvinley on February 21, 2015, 12:25:21 AM
Did you notice in that email the incorrect price of £119 per set? - if only.

Yep, on the web page as well  !
http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=26386.msg285923#msg285923 (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=26386.msg285923#msg285923)
and see AustinBob's reply :)

Sadly the shopping basket did not maintain the illusion :(

If you read the email that's the reduced price if you order both. One unit still costs £199. If you order both at the same time you save £50 and the price drops to that stated. Still... If they do honour it be sure to let us know  :thankyousign:

Quote from: Dorsetmike on February 21, 2015, 11:10:44 AM
Also why must just about every loco produced be a type which survived into BR days.

I suspect almost a Catch 22 situation, they don't make them cos almost nobody models pre BR/ nobody models pre BR cos there's almost no stock made.

Hi Mike

I appreciate that there is some interest in pre-BR, no question of that, but I strongly suspect insufficient to risk tooling for a model which would not cover the all important steam/diesel transition period.

To make a business case they would have to be able to demonstrate a market for several thousand units and as risk free as possible. That means BR liveries is a "must" I think.

Regards

Roy

I'm one of the ones who asked for the Flying Scotsman. Specifically a *Good* Flying Scotsman with a full set of suitable coaches with the Minitrix running qualities and reliability.

Hornby should do at least one model that can be directly compared to their competitors just to show their qualities and given the limited runs that everyone does I don't think they'd have too much trouble selling a Flying Scotsman train pack.

Having said that I'd prefer a streamlined Duchess of Hamilton and coaches first ;)

Quote from: Mr chapman on February 21, 2015, 11:27:20 AM

Quote from: MalcolmAL on February 21, 2015, 12:41:05 AM

Quote from: Elvinley on February 21, 2015, 12:25:21 AM
Did you notice in that email the incorrect price of £119 per set? - if only.

Yep, on the web page as well  !
http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=26386.msg285923#msg285923 (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=26386.msg285923#msg285923)
and see AustinBob's reply :)

Sadly the shopping basket did not maintain the illusion :(

If you read the email that's the reduced price if you order both. One unit still costs £199. If you order both at the same time you save £50 and the price drops to that stated. Still... If they do honour it be sure to let us know  :thankyousign:

Afraid not mate. I've just put both items in my basket and applied the code supplied and it still comes out at £349.98 payable.

Posted my two-penneth too now!

Roy

Quote from: Roy L S on February 21, 2015, 11:30:50 AM

Quote from: Dorsetmike on February 21, 2015, 11:10:44 AM
Also why must just about every loco produced be a type which survived into BR days.

I suspect almost a Catch 22 situation, they don't make them cos almost nobody models pre BR/ nobody models pre BR cos there's almost no stock made.

Hi Mike

I appreciate that there is some interest in pre-BR, no question of that, but I strongly suspect insufficient to risk tooling for a model which would not cover the all important steam/diesel transition period.

To make a business case they would have to be able to demonstrate a market for several thousand units and as risk free as possible. That means BR liveries is a "must" I think.

Regards

Roy

I appreciate that but until somebody does bite that bullet I suggest my Catch 22 will continue to exist.

Union Mills seem to be able to get along with "mundane" stuff,  admittedly on a much smaller operation and still choosing types which survived to BR.

Duke of Gloucester please!

Paddy

Quote from: Dorsetmike on February 21, 2015, 11:10:44 AM
For the benefit of Hacker and Bashem Ltd a 4-4-2 and maybe 0-4-2 would be welcome.

Yesterday on this forum you just stated you only bought 2 locos new across the last 10 years. That's probably your answer right there why Hornby isn't listening to you. Why should they? The hobbyists they care about are the ones who buy a new loco every month or two.

Quote from: Dorsetmike on February 21, 2015, 11:10:44 AM
Also why must just about every loco produced be a type which survived into BR days.

Just about every survey of the hobby reports the 'transition era' between steam and diesel is the most popular. Presumably because you can mix both types of traction without fudging things. Being able to run Flying Scotsman and a Deltic on the same layout is something that appeals to a lot of people, and understandably so. More hobbyists = more sales potential = better return on your investment.

Quote from: Dorsetmike on February 21, 2015, 11:10:44 AM
I suspect almost a Catch 22 situation, they don't make them cos almost nobody models pre BR/ nobody models pre BR cos there's almost no stock made.

Definitely a fair comment. I wonder when this happened. When I was a teenager, during the early 80s, it seemed to me GWR layouts were two-a-penny, and layouts based around the Big Four generally were pretty popular. Is it simply the people who knew the Big Four railways companies, and modelled them in their retirement perhaps, just die off? Do we mostly model what we grew up with? For me, it's the BR blue era that appeals, because that's why I saw and remember.

Cheers, NeMo

Quote from: Mr chapman on February 21, 2015, 11:27:20 AM

Quote from: MalcolmAL on February 21, 2015, 12:41:05 AM

Quote from: Elvinley on February 21, 2015, 12:25:21 AM
Did you notice in that email the incorrect price of £119 per set? - if only.

Yep, on the web page as well  !
http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=26386.msg285923#msg285923 (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=26386.msg285923#msg285923)
and see AustinBob's reply :)

Sadly the shopping basket did not maintain the illusion :(

If you read the email that's the reduced price if you order both. One unit still costs £199. If you order both at the same time you save £50 and the price drops to that stated. Still... If they do honour it be sure to let us know  :thankyousign:

I don't think so...
£199.99 + £199.99 = £399.98 - £50.00 = £349.98.
£119.99 + £119.99 = £239.98

I think someone made a boo-boo on the prices on the EMail and associated web page, and the fact that when you try to order the items the price in the basket is £199.99 confirms that, IMHO.

Under SOGA they would have to honour if the mistake is noticed after sale (as then they would have accepted a contract at that price), but as there is no way to get them to sell at the lower price then I would think that trying to get them to honour that lower price would involve a certain amount of spitting into the wind...

Quote from: Paddy on February 21, 2015, 12:49:35 PM
Duke of Gloucester please!

Paddy

Hi Paddy

That could be a really good choice given CAD work is done for the 00 one already. Likely a good "Rule1" loco too for many people (including me).

Roy

I would happily go rule one with Duke Of Gloucester.

But Some modern era stock like 175 or maybe a 323. While I know steam is the biggest seller in N gauge however modern stuff has the biggest room for growth business wise.
For hornby to get a foot hold in the market I think hitting modern first then spreading out.

Quote from: acko22 on February 21, 2015, 02:43:02 PM
I would happily go rule one with Duke Of Gloucester.

But Some modern era stock like 175 or maybe a 323. While I know steam is the biggest seller in N gauge however modern stuff has the biggest room for growth business wise.
For hornby to get a foot hold in the market I think hitting modern first then spreading out.

There is a logic to targeting some more modern things and there is certainly a lot of growth potential I'd have to agree, but risk wise a spread may be better. There are a number of steam locos in their 00 range such as the "Princess" that have never been available RTR in N and are not on anyone else's declared product lists that would look to have much potential too.

Interesting times...

Roy

I think the main attraction for me is the chance for more places to stock N gauge. Lots of smaller model shops stock plenty of red boxes but no N. Places like Argos or toys-R-us could even also stock a bit of N. Who knows. Hornby is a power player in the world of railways. Most people start with a Hornby 00 set as a kid. Perhaps now that could be a Hornby N set.

QuoteMost people start with a Hornby 00 set as a kid. Perhaps now that could be a Hornby N set.

I suspect there are quite a few on this forum who started out on Hornby gauge 0, I know I did, 00 was what I got my kids, they didn't get the bug tho!

Quote from: Dorsetmike on February 21, 2015, 04:07:45 PM

QuoteMost people start with a Hornby 00 set as a kid. Perhaps now that could be a Hornby N set.

I suspect there are quite a few on this forum who started out on Hornby gauge 0, I know I did, 00 was what I got my kids, they didn't get the bug tho!

I think you've just invented the railway modelling equivalent of carbon dating  :smiley-laughing:

JB

Ooops!

good news

suppose hornby will be looking for something newish from their oo range they can just shrink?

what are the best hornby oo diesel locos and dmus?

as for emus, maybe a 395 or 2-bil? do they make others?


Tim

I think it safe to assume they'll stick with stuff that is in their 00 range, and will want to appeal to as broad an audience as possible. Big ticket model that has the potential for a high volume of repeated sales is a certainty. The trouble is that a small fish has pinched Hornbys 00 range and shrunk it to compete with Bachmann, and in 00 we know that Hornby isn't affraid of going head on with the competition. I'd be surprised if Frying Fatman and the Stuffed Duck aren't high on their agenda, they just want people to suggest them to absolve some blame for duplicating Dapol, along with a range of Pullman coaches; which haven't been available since the Poole Farish days. To run alongside the Belle they could avoid duplication by doing an N15 and/or S15. These sold well in 00 and aren't forecast (yet) in N. The coaching stock to match in their 00 range hasn't been perpetuated by Dapol as they went a different route with their Maunsell coaches, so high window Maunsells could be a go; but Pullmans would be more likely.

I'm not going to make a suggestion to them as I don't think they'd want to dip their toe in the N Gauge water by shrinking their forthcoming LMS suburbans and a Fowler 2-6-4T, but I would be least surprised to see them settle on an LNER pacific of some foul flavour and Pullmans to go with it.

No need to be offensive about a range/style of engine many people enjoy.  And before you say 'its only in fun' there is a distinct lack of smilies that may have alleviated your post.

Personally I am rather bemused that Hornby are moving into this market; if the BBs did so well - why are they selling them off cheap now ?  Maybe they will do more than dip another toe into the market and push out a group of locos that cover each main area (steam, diesel, maybe even an electric although that's less likely) as well as some rolling stock to go with them; and maybe it will be another exploratory peek of a single class they can rebadge cheaply.

I would be disappointed were they to duplicate Dapol / GraFar releases; they have a wide range to select from, after all, that they have in OO and aren't already in N - duplication will result in dilution of sales all around, and hence pressure from shareholders to "pull out of a market they are obviously unsuited for" (after all - were they well suited to it, they would have done better, right ?).  Once they have established themselves, then duplication would be less of an issue (assuming they last more than a couple of years in this small market - be honest : compared with OO, the N market is tiny).

I watch with interest ... but unless they produce something unique and in my interest range, I won't be buying from them in N (waits for the "but you must, else they'll pull out !" posts ::) ).

Not sure why you are disappointed to see Hornby look at the N gauge market personally I think its to early to tell if Hornby are really interested or if its a passing interest.

As to selling the BB cheap well that could be a clever ploy to tempt people away from Grafar and Dapol. As things stand right now I think its positive they are asking us what we want but only time will tell how much they are really interested.

Would somebody kindly send me the link to the Hornby BB lower price order/info page.

I have stupidly deleted this and my Trash folder has auto emptied!  :(

Thanks

Dave G

Quote from: acko22 on February 21, 2015, 11:20:47 PM
Not sure why you are disappointed to see Hornby look at the N gauge market personally I think its to early to tell if Hornby are really interested or if its a passing interest.

I said bemused, not disappointed ... http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bemuse (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bemuse).  The rest of that para is also wondering at the level of business interest Hornby are going to show.

The disappointment aspect was on the speculation (desire ?) of some members that Hornby should next produce exactly what Dapol & GraFar have in their range, just so that they can do an exact like-for-like comparison.

Quote
As to selling the BB cheap well that could be a clever ploy to tempt people away from Grafar and Dapol. As things stand right now I think its positive they are asking us what we want but only time will tell how much they are really interested.

Tempt us away ?  But neither of these competitors make the BBs ... hardly tempting us away with a massive range of ... one model in two liveries that has limited appeal ::)  At £119 a set - yes, that is tempting ... but also looks like a screw-up in the typesetting department instead of £199 :P  To me, £50 off £400 isn't particularly exciting  ::)

I wish I could say that this 'request' was a positive step - but if they are really coming into the market they will already have the next N item in the pre-production stage (or mapped in for pre-production soon - or even close to approval for production).  It takes a long time for models to go from the initial decision to release to shops - at best, I would think 12 months for Hornby, and it could be closer to 24 months if their manufacturing chain is still weak (their record in OO over the past 5 years is poor at best on timescales - and abysmal for certain models, although not quite as bad as the competitors in N !).  I suspect, like others, this may be an exercise in "CYA" - to let them point to this & say "but it's what you asked for, why aren't you buying" when they release models of locos long in the competitors ranges that then do badly ...

I do hope I'm wrong :(

As you got close by realising that my tone has a very thinly veiled swipe but with a deeper meaning, I'll fill in the gaps for you; though I am almost insulted by the unnecessary manner of your response. Smilies are no measure of the sarcasm, derision or an indication of the direction to take when reading a post. :P

I expect Hornby to produce Flying Scotsman. It was part of the Minitrix range they distributed and the biggest seller there, it is the single biggest seller in their 00 range too. It caters almost specifically to the trainset market if you think about it. In the '80s almost every boy I knew in my primary school had a Hornby Flying Scotsman set, either the LNER or the Pullman versions, and these same sets continue to sell in volume today. Given the resurgence in '80s memorabilia and that those kids will now largely have kids of their own and those parents are now grandparents, but house sizes have considerably shrunk, that '80s trainset market is quite a considerable hole which is not being fulfilled. Dapols A1 is not child friendly, nor is it produced in any quantity and it certainly doesn't come in a box bearing a name that is still held as the go to generic name that is mentioned without fail when you say you model railways. Dapols Gresleys are not particularly robust either, but Hornbys 'design clever' (formerly) way of producing models does result in more robust models with a degree of moulded detail which is more suited to less experienced hands. I'm not thinking of the serious modeller here, I'm thinking of the catalogue shop and museum markets for volume of sales of Hornbys biggest seller...'That set is too big. Oh look, they do a tiny one too!'.

When Minitrix ceased producing British N, where did the toolings go? Marklin bought the assets in 1997, but did Mangold sell the British toolings prior to that? Or did they change hands when Marklin themselves almost went bust in 2009, at a time when Hornby were making a land grab for a large number of brands? The A1 would need a retool, but those old Gresleys stand up well today. Tool 1 locomotive, reintroduce some well regarded coaches and the track/controllers are in production for other ranges already. Easy win. Tool up a handful of Pullman coaches and you have another set of greater saleability and individual coach sales.

Now to address the derision apparent in my initial post. Go to a swapmeet and look at just how common tatty old models of FS and Mallard are, they were made and sold in the tens of thousands and bought by all and sundry. I'm sick of seeing them! Even in todays small batch driven production run world they're STILL pretty much constantly available. Have Dapol taken advantage of their position with this very model in N? Not really, they've left a void there IMHO. Hornby have the distribution network (domestic and internationally) and household name to exploit that advantage should they go down that route.

I  thought this topic would just be "I'd like Hornby to bring out
a class XYZ or a  Castle or  Dean Single or whatever ", but it
seems to be turning into a bickering session.

It's not dignified when grown men start a handbag fight
over toy trains.... :D

So there!

Quote from: Agrippa on February 22, 2015, 12:38:43 PM

It's not dignified when grown men start a handbag fight

Now there's an idea for a street scene. With women as opposed to men of course.

Quote from: bluedepot on February 21, 2015, 10:02:57 PM
good news

suppose hornby will be looking for something newish from their oo range they can just shrink?

what are the best hornby oo diesel locos and dmus?

as for emus, maybe a 395 or 2-bil? do they make others?


Tim

Or a 2 HAL, please!

Dodger

Quote from: Agrippa on February 22, 2015, 12:38:43 PM

seems to be turning into a bickering session.

Who's bickering? It was merely pointed out that I was not being clear enough in expressing my thinking!  ;)

Quote from: Trainfish on February 22, 2015, 01:12:40 PM

Quote from: Agrippa on February 22, 2015, 12:38:43 PM

It's not dignified when grown men start a handbag fight

Now there's an idea for a street scene. With women as opposed to men of course.

Depends which era you're modelling, there seems to be quite a trend for manbags nowadays!  :D

Bickering schmickering, it's still rock.n roll to me..... :D

I would suggest Hornby bring out Stephenson's Rocket
in N, complete with top hatted crew, unlikely though.

Depends which era you're modelling, there seems to be quite a trend for manbags nowadays!  :D
[/quote]

You speak for yourself ! :D

Standard Class 4 (75xxx Series).

Who knows. Last time they bought out old Dapol 00 tooling. With a few locos being retired by dapol maybe they could start there and slap a hornby chassis underneath. If they did still have the minitrix A3/A4 Brit tooling ect perhaps we might see a budget range of sorts. I'm just happy they are having a go! I want Pullmans! Please...
Will this still be under hornby international? Or some new fangled horNby type thing.

Quote from: jivebunny on February 22, 2015, 01:47:47 PM

Quote from: Trainfish on February 22, 2015, 01:12:40 PM

Quote from: Agrippa on February 22, 2015, 12:38:43 PM

It's not dignified when grown men start a handbag fight

Now there's an idea for a street scene. With women as opposed to men of course.

Depends which era you're modelling, there seems to be quite a trend for manbags nowadays!  :D

I think you'll find that's more a French thing (http://www.gitesandmore.co.uk/MCj04257560000%5B1%5D.gif)

Quote from: Zunnan on February 22, 2015, 11:35:30 AM
though I am almost insulted by the unnecessary manner of your response.

"As you sow, so shall you reap" ?  Perhaps if you had made your attack on LNER / Gresley designs / steam locomotives (take your pick, you aimed at all of them) in a less confrontational manner, you may have had a better response ?

Quote
Marklin bought the assets in 1997, but did Mangold sell the British toolings prior to that? Or did they change hands when Marklin themselves almost went bust in 2009, at a time when Hornby were making a land grab for a large number of brands?

So you expect them to use an 18+ year old tooling ?  Really ? I don't ... if they want to be taken seriously, they need to have modern tooling.  That's why they have their RailRoad range - to get more profit out of long paid-off tooling while it's viable, and make new tooling to meet the current level of detail demanded by those not into the toy train arena (and also allowing those so inclined a lower-cost product to super-detail what was a good product in its day to their own requirements).

Quote
I'm sick of seeing them!

Then stop looking at them, hmmm ?  If they're that prevalent, that says a lot about the wider demand in toy train circles, yes ?

Quote
Have Dapol taken advantage of their position with this very model in N? Not really, they've left a void there IMHO.

Have you actually looked at the range Dapol have produced ?  Because it does not appear so !  5 seconds on Dapol's site shows no less than 12 entries for A1/A3 engines, and a further 8 for A4s - and that's just current availability, not considering the ones no longer available, or done as a special for another seller.  Hardly a void.

Just because you despise steam locos (from your posts, this is what you are strongly implying) doesn't mean that the market does; given the strength of steamers vs electrics, surely that tells you something ?  And in N, Hornby is not the market leader - they're not even in the running !!!   Union Mills have a much larger presence than Hornby have, be honest.  Unless they do something dramatic (and that costs a lot of money), that will be the case for some years to come.

No matter; you're extremely biased and I have no doubt you'll come out with more vitriol. 

Quote from: Agrippa on February 22, 2015, 01:54:38 PM
I would suggest Hornby bring out Stephenson's Rocket
in N, complete with top hatted crew, unlikely though.

Grief, that is an old one :)  Have they done it since that large  steam-powered version many years back ?

Stephensons Rocket would be great for my layout  its a Railway museum so can I vote with both hands and feet .
Bob

In principal hornby looking at n gauge may just push dapol and farish to get on with their current programme just a tad more quickly....do both dapol and farish not start production until enough preorders have been taken by the retailers?

Having extrapolated the non contrary stuff from Mike/Zunnan's posts they both make valid points. I must admit as soon as I saw the thread title I thought "Oh no, here goes another wish list thread". Maybe we need a separate board for them as, to my small mind, any wishing should be done on the requested website but I guess lots of folks like to express their wishes and see who agrees/disagrees.
It's great that Hornby have entered the N gauge market and, yes, I damn well hope it is giving Farish/Dapol cause for concern as maybe they'll shape up a bit in the customer service area and bringing announced stuff to market in a timely manner. Only by voting on the Hornby website (rather than here) will we see something emerge as a 'most wanted' and we'll have to live with it - regardless of whether we want one or not.
Please post with decorum and due respect for others opinions, for the sake of the rest of us.

from the tone of this:

"With plans underway for more additions to the N gauge range, what would you like to see?

Any and all suggestions are welcome and, while we can't make any guarantees, all the ideas we receive shall be passed on to our Development team"

it sounds like Hornby have got something up their sleeve already....

Cheers
Mark

I think it would be great, if Hornby will expand their UK N gauge range.
And I hope they will reintroduce Lyddle End, and with a bit of luck they
produce a K1.

Markus

I like the sound of "additions"
that's plural and means more than one to me! :hmmm:

Cheers
Mark

I vote for a Javelin or the new Eurostar - suitable models for the 21st C!!

I'd also expect Hornby to produce a Flying Scotsman. I'd also be very happy if they produced models competing with Dapol and Farish and I'd like to give my reasoning. It's not because I want to compare them side by side. I'd also love to see lots more different trains come out of a new (re) entrant to the N gauge marketplace.

Firstly, I've given up on buying any Dapol steamers as they've proven to be poorly designed and built. So Hornby A4/A3 models would be great.

Minitrix have a really good reputation for their current build quality and the detailing (and reliable running) on their european steam engines proves it can be done. Even though they're done at a smaller scale than the UK stock.

Hornby's UK dealership has mentioned a lot of issues with delays etc. on the OO stock, but I'm wondering if that applies to the Minitrix manufacturing line too? I suspect they're better set up for more rapid turnaround of new designs with the scale they have.

I'm looking forward to lots of new stuff :) already loving my Brighton Belle, even though technically it's a rule 1 on my layout ;)

Quote from: Agrippa on February 22, 2015, 01:54:38 PM
Bickering schmickering, it's still rock.n roll to me..... :D

I would suggest Hornby bring out Stephenson's Rocket
in N, complete with top hatted crew, unlikely though.

Whilst this would probably sell fairly well and would certainly make a nice model, the OO model was absolutely tiny for the scale and in N the boiler would probably be roughly the same diameter as a AAA battery (the thin ones you put in remote controls, etc). The locomotive itself is actually shorter and not much wider than an N gauge PGA hopper, so in N I think it's quite likely it would require a motorised coach.

Please ignore the border collie in the background  :D

JB

(http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g268/jivebunnystudios/60832DEB-4DD3-49F3-AEB9-E7EBC48273E0_zpsrdzqkl0l.jpg)

(http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g268/jivebunnystudios/4CBBD5A5-B5D7-4089-BCF3-7710C4B78562_zpseahlepwx.jpg)

(http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g268/jivebunnystudios/68AE2B52-2F27-43EC-9CD8-6BC92F567DE8_zps8spryzoa.jpg)

Quote from: Railwaygun on February 22, 2015, 07:15:33 PM
I vote for a Javelin or the new Eurostar - suitable models for the 21st C!!

My votes too plus the new EMUs on the East Coast and Great Western. Dapol/Farish produce loads of steam locomotives so it would be great to have a manufacturer that does something different  :)

I have chucked my votes in for some of the GWR items Hornby do in 00 that are not available in N Gauge such as the King, County and heavy tanks.

As for hurrying Dapol and Farish along, that would be nice but I won't hold my breath. Farish seem to plod along at their own rate, regardless of the outside world. Dapol still seem to be a post-Dave torpor. Still, hopefully the recent release of the Maunsell coaches means they will be getting back on track.

This is great news, I would love too see more buildings that they do in OO.
As for loco's this very difficult as the main contenders have released a great range. Which would be very difficult to produce something that would sell strongly and not put them off N gauge.

I wouldn't mind if they went down the same route as peco and produced a massive amount of rolling stock which does have a big RTR hole in every era modelled.

Quote from: porkie on February 23, 2015, 06:17:21 PM
As for loco's this very difficult as the main contenders have released a great range.

What's that? Someone greatful??? Now I have seen everything  :laugh3:  :claphappy:

Hi all,

I have had my say and gone back to the thread a few times but despite lots and lots of ideas so far no feedback or response from Hornby.

I am not convinced they see the value of the internet as an interactive medium where they can ask - and respond - in real time to drive toward a consensus.

Having said that I will keep monitoring and I am looking forward to seeing what Hornby decide to do!

cheers

Ben A.

Quote from: Ben A on February 23, 2015, 10:41:10 PM
I have had my say and gone back to the thread a few times but despite lots and lots of ideas so far no feedback or response from Hornby.

Did you really expect any ?  While someone may be collating ideas, I am not expecting anything from them except maybe with them saying something like "thanks, that's all we need" & closing feedback ... and I don't hold out much chance of that.

Hi Mike,

I'm not sure.  I did think maybe the tone of the initial posting suggested a more "chatty" approach but on reflection you're probably right - there's no particular need for Hornby to respond.

cheers

Ben A.

Hornby recently took the step of particpitating in a Q&A on RMWeb. Whilst not exactly a triumph of straight-talking, it was still a positive step from a campany realising that it needs to improve its customer engagement to meet the expectations of the 21st century.

Hornby have a long way to go before the reach the levels of communication provided by the likes of DJM and Rapido (and Revolution is in a league all of its own  :thumbsup: ) but at least they are heading in the right direction.

Baby steps.

Now, where is my N Gauge 4200?  :D

Let's hope Hornbys response to the Q & A was better than Dapols.
Let's face it - it couldn't be worse................could it? >:D

Quote from: newportnobby on February 24, 2015, 10:26:19 AM
Let's hope Hornbys response to the Q & A was better than Dapols.

Dapol had a Q&A? I thought it was just a lot of Qs.  :computerangry:

Quote from: Karhedron on February 24, 2015, 10:37:59 AM

Quote from: newportnobby on February 24, 2015, 10:26:19 AM
Let's hope Hornbys response to the Q & A was better than Dapols.

Dapol had a Q&A? I thought it was just a lot of Qs.  :computerangry:

Yeah - Dapol asked the questions and didn't like the answers :laugh:

I don't know...Hornby aren't exactly known for their interaction with the punters unless at an exhibition stand or you get lucky at somewhere like WWTP when the big fish surface. Bachmann/Farish are the same in playing their cards close to their chest, but since DJ left Dapol the silence has been deafening. It's a positive step by Hornby, but it is obvious that certain decisions have already been made, which makes this whole exercise look more like a publicity raising venture. No bad thing when you're a huge name brand looking to enter a market more than a decade later than was ideal. There is nowt like stirring the froth to get attention!

Now, where are my LMS twins?  ;D

Quote from: Zunnan on February 24, 2015, 10:42:26 AM
I don't know...Hornby aren't exactly known for their interaction with the punters unless at an exhibition stand or you get lucky at somewhere like WWTP when the big fish surface. Bachmann/Farish are the same in playing their cards close to their chest, but since DJ left Dapol the silence has been deafening. It's a positive step by Hornby, but it is obvious that certain decisions have already been made, which makes this whole exercise look more like a publicity raising venture. No bad thing when you're a huge name brand looking to enter a market more than a decade later than was ideal. There is nowt like stirring the froth to get attention!

Now, where are my LMS twins?  ;D

And of course they now have anotehr bunch of email addresses they can send marketing bumf to..... ;)

My take on this is that Hornby are "keeping up with the Joneses".

Their ambition is to compete with Bachmann in all market segments.

Bachmann have a British N gauge range so Hornby must also have one if they want to fight Bachmann on equal terms.

Best regards,


Joe

If I was Hornby my strategy would be to take out Dapol before competing directly with Farish.

So I would bring out Hornby versions of :

the Britannia class
the 9F
the A3
the A4

without the well-documented faults of the Dapol models.

Best regards,


Joe
P.S. I might also bring out a V2 without the well-documented faults of the Farish version.

Probably would never happen but would love to see Hornby downsize their excellent class 56 and replace the miserable effort that Dapol made of it.

QuoteIf I was Hornby my strategy would be to take out Dapol before competing directly with Farish.

I would suggest getting established with some different models than are currently in production, no matter who is making them, once established with a proven track record (pun not intentional - honest!!) then go after the opposition, or at least threaten it to see if the opposition gets the message and sorts out their problems.

People are quick enough to moan about poor performance, but rarely shout about the good ones that probably far outnumber the duff ones.  It would be interesting to know provable figures of failures compared to non failures. Admittedly zero failures would be ideal but we are unlikely to ever see that. I would hope that the figures are  a bit  below 5%

Personally, I do not see any reason why Hornby should be trying to 'Take out' Dapol or 'Compete diractly' with Farish, I am just delighted that we have the potential of 4 ready to run manufacturers in N gauge, it does not seem long ago that there was all but nothing in this scale, remembering the Bachmann take over of Farish!

All I hope for is a continuing development of quality and running standards and do hope that the price does not run away at the same time!

Best wishes
Simon

Quote from: bridgiesimon on February 26, 2015, 08:09:24 PM
Personally, I do not see any reason why Hornby should be trying to 'Take out' Dapol or 'Compete diractly' with Farish

The reason is that Hornby is a business quoted on the stock exchange that has to make profit to keep its shareholders happy in the short term and also ensure its survival in the short/medium/long term.

Bachmann and Hornby have to answer to shareholders unlike the "cottage industries" for whom pandering to our desires is either a vocation or a hobby or a combination of both.

Best regards,


Joe

Trying to "take out Dapol" (or Farish) is a sure fire way to ruin your business. Monoplies might appear attractive but for something like model railways where you need a substantial range then taking out the others is much more likely to just end up with a much smaller customer base as your customers go to alternative scales.

Manufacturers need to produce things that people want to buy.

Cheers, Mike

In order to provide a balance of different types of motive power and to signal their intentions to compete in the N scale market, I suspect their next announcements will be a steam loco and carriages, with possibly a reintroduction of their former Lyddle End range of buildings.

Quote from: red_death on February 26, 2015, 08:57:54 PM
Trying to "take out Dapol" (or Farish) is a sure fire way to ruin your business.


Monoplies might appear attractive but for something like model railways where you need a substantial range then taking out the others is much more likely to just end up with a much smaller customer base as your customers go to alternative scales.




Manufacturers need to produce things that people want to buy.

Hornby do not have any business in UK N Gauge (except for the Brighton Pullman) so there is no business to ruin ?

There is no monopoly in UK N Gauge - there are now at least 3 suppliers of RTR locos/coaches.

I want to buy an A3, an A4, a V2, and a 9F but I have not bought them because what is currently on offer leaves something to be desired as per what I have heard/read on fora such as this.

Hornby, go for it ! (No connection other than an enthusiastic potential customer).

Best regards,


Joe

Mr. Red Death,

Further to my previous e-mail I find it somewhat hypocritical of you to critizise my encouragement of Hornby, a traditional supplier of model railways in the UK, to enter the UK N gauge market whereas you yourself are promoting the products of a foreign company who have no doubt similar objetives to those of Hornby ?

Regards,

Joe Cassidy

Hello Joe,

I am working with Mike on bringing the Pendolino to market, but our involvement is widely known and I don't consider either of us hypocrites for airing views here since neither of us is discouraging Hornby from entering British N; just urging them to pick their models carefully.

I think the point about monopolies is that in your post you suggested Hornby "take out" Dapol - that language implies an aggressive attempt to remove them from the market.  I accept that may not be what you meant but it could be misunderstood to mean that in your view Hornby's strategy should be aimed at leaving themselves the lone supplier in N....

My opinion is that Hornby and their shareholders would be best served by a strategy that maximises their impact and potential sales and minimises their research costs and risks - and this is most simply achieved by looking at their OO range and producing items that aren't yet available in N.

I also agree with a previous poster who pointed out that Hornby are arguably half a decade too late, as many of their most suitable models have already been produced by Dapol who were understandably seeking to avoid anything Bachmann might shrink and so, by default, ended up mirroring some of Hornby's range.

cheers

Ben A.

I don't think any UK N gauge manufacturer has to be a monopoly to succeed in the long term. That would imply that the market is saturated and already has the maximum number of customers possible, which I don't think is the case.

Hornby are ideally placed to grow the UK N Gauge market and user base, so don't really have to worry too much about what Dapol and Bachmann are doing. From their point of view they've got the current market of N gaugers they can sell to and a potentially untapped market of people who would previously only have bought a Hornby OO gauge train set as that's all they knew about. They just need to have a section in the new catalogue that says "Hey, here's some of our trains in a size you can fit on your coffee table" and they've got a lot of new interest that previously weren't noticing N.

Quote from: joe cassidy on February 26, 2015, 09:59:51 PM
Further to my previous e-mail I find it somewhat hypocritical of you to critizise my encouragement of Hornby, a traditional supplier of model railways in the UK, to enter the UK N gauge market whereas you yourself are promoting the products of a foreign company who have no doubt similar objetives to those of Hornby ?

Sorry Joe, but that is completely out of order. You were the person suggesting Hornby should try to "take out" Dapol.

There is no secret that what Ben and I are trying to do is grow the N gauge market not remove competitors.

As for the idea that we are promoting a more "foreign" company than any of the other manufacturers that just isn't true - for the time being the vast majority of our models (Revolution, Hornby, Bachmann etc) are all manufactured in the far east. Some of the R&D is inevitably best done in the UK and that is true for Revolution as for Bachmann/Hornby etc.

Mike

Hornby have entered the market with an EMU and it looks great,

maybe they should go for 3 new products

1) Modern image loco whether it be a Diesel or Electric
2) A steam engine of some sort
3) A DMU set, they have tooling for the Hornby 110 and the Lima 117 which could be scaled down to fit an Arnold chassis.

That way they have covered all variations of motive power and can expand from there.

Modern image coaching stock has been covered by Bachmann Farish and Dapol, but I did read that P Fagg suggested the early wooden type Pullmans that do look attractive and not currently available and even though we are new to this scale, it has not taken us long to see who does what, but I believe Hornby would clean up with those coaches.
There use to be a MK2 version type of Pullman coach that ran from London to Manchester and Liverpool, they carried 2 liveries whilst in BR service and have carried various liveries whilst under private ownership and its another idea to be considered before someone else decides to do it.

I had a Hornby APT when I was younger, It was my favorite train on my layout and I am totally surprised that no one has factory produced it in N gauge, I would work overtime just be able to buy a 10 car set..

There is lots and lots of gaps to be filled and with Revolution N and Hornby asking for ideas, sometime soon there will be announcements and some people will be dissapointed that their suggestion was not considered this time round, but there is always next time round.

My Son and I are just waiting to see what new stuff is to be announced and if it does not suit us then we will make do with what other stuff is available until something that we do want does crop up. We are watching the APT/P development on Shapeways with interest, but its going to be a bugger to build and paint though, but i'm sure we will crack it. :-X


:thankyousign:
Mark.

Quote from: joe cassidy on February 26, 2015, 07:40:27 PM
If I was Hornby my strategy would be to take out Dapol before competing directly with Farish.

So I would bring out Hornby versions of :

the Britannia class
the 9F
the A3
the A4

without the well-documented faults of the Dapol models.

Best regards,


Joe
P.S. I might also bring out a V2 without the well-documented faults of the Farish version.

An unfortunate choice of words. It's difficult to see how that would serve anyone well. In addition to that, regardless of any models that may or may not have the bad press you perceive (and I would argue that the huge majority have A3s, A4s, Britts that they are more than happy with), what about all the very very good models they produce like the 22, 26, 27, 52, etc, etc, that don't get bad press?

Quote from: joe cassidy on February 26, 2015, 08:45:30 PM

Quote from: bridgiesimon on February 26, 2015, 08:09:24 PM
Personally, I do not see any reason why Hornby should be trying to 'Take out' Dapol or 'Compete diractly' with Farish

The reason is that Hornby is a business quoted on the stock exchange that has to make profit to keep its shareholders happy in the short term and also ensure its survival in the short/medium/long term.

Bachmann and Hornby have to answer to shareholders unlike the "cottage industries" for whom pandering to our desires is either a vocation or a hobby or a combination of both.

Best regards,


Joe

This would suggest that the only kind of company you view worthy, is one listed on teh stock exchange and with shareholders? A rather bizarre attitude......

Quote from: joe cassidy on February 26, 2015, 09:59:51 PM
Mr. Red Death,

Further to my previous e-mail I find it somewhat hypocritical of you to critizise my encouragement of Hornby, a traditional supplier of model railways in the UK, to enter the UK N gauge market whereas you yourself are promoting the products of a foreign company who have no doubt similar objetives to those of Hornby ?

Regards,

Joe Cassidy

Revolution are trying to fill in a gap or gaps in the existing ranges of the major manufacturers, models that Bachman or Farish are reluctant to build under their normal business model. To compare them and Rapido with your advocation of "taking out" a competitor, is ludicrous.


I mean this most, most sincerely, when I say be careful what you wish for.

Getting back to the Hornby plans, I wonder if it would perhaps serve them well to continue with their Southern theme? If they were to shrink their "-HAL, 2-BIL, 4-VEP perhaps they would make that region more model-able? Especially if they realeased them all or at least a couple of them at the same time.

This could then be followed/complemented if they shrunk the N class and Schools class?

Scotty

Quote from: Dorsetmike on February 26, 2015, 08:00:03 PM
I would suggest getting established with some different models than are currently in production, no matter who is making them, once established with a proven track record (pun not intentional - honest!!) then go after the opposition, or at least threaten it to see if the opposition gets the message and sorts out their problems.

People are quick enough to moan about poor performance, but rarely shout about the good ones that probably far outnumber the duff ones.  It would be interesting to know provable figures of failures compared to non failures. Admittedly zero failures would be ideal but we are unlikely to ever see that. I would hope that the figures are  a bit  below 5%

:thankyousign:
Well said! People are indeed far quicker to complain that to praise. As it happens, I can give you some reall data. A couple of years ago, I enquired with one of the big box shifters what their failure return rate was for Dapol and for N Gauge in general. As it turned out, the return rate for Dapol locos was about 5%. This was the same figure for Farish and also for 00 in general.

While people seem to shout loudest about Dapol, the figures show that their reliability is on par with Farish and with Hornby for that matter. Look at some of the 00 fora and you will see people whinging about reliability of their locos too. It is a myth that N Gauge is significantly worse than 00. A few locos do have well documented and persistent problems (valve gear on the Dapol Prairies, Ivatts and Farish 4MTs for example). However in general, reliability is good, particularly if you are lucky enough to model diesels without complicated spaghetti around the wheels.

I think that Hornby going after prototypes that Dapol has already done would be a bad move. The Dapol Brittania is one of their better steamers and has just had another run with improved blackening on the wheels (I painted my earlier one). How many people would replace their Dapol brits with a Hornby one? I certainly wouldn't.

Hornby are smart enough to know that if they duplicate a well established model, they risk being stuck with models they cannot shift. Look at how quick they were to announce their 00 King and Adam Radial when it turned out competitors were planning them. Nobody would benefit from a head-to-head war between Dapol and Hornby, not even us modellers as we would lose a source of prototypes.

Where Hornby stand a good chance is with items like multiple units where tooling several vehicles would be a substantial chunk of revenue tied up for a smaller firm like Dapol. Hornby can afford to take a longer term view and tool up prototypes that might require a few runs to make their return on. They have deep pockets and can afford to play the long game.

I seemed to have stirred up a hornets net with my posts so I would like to apologise to Red Death and anyone else I offended - yes, I was out of order.

I realise that I should not be selective and encourage all new entrants to the UK N Gauge market.

Best regards,


Joe

Quote from: Karhedron on February 27, 2015, 08:54:08 AM
I think that Hornby going after prototypes that Dapol has already done would be a bad move. The Dapol Brittania is one of their better steamers and has just had another run with improved blackening on the wheels (I painted my earlier one). How many people would replace their Dapol brits with a Hornby one? I certainly wouldn't.

Hornby are smart enough to know that if they duplicate a well established model, they risk being stuck with models they cannot shift. Look at how quick they were to announce their 00 King and Adam Radial when it turned out competitors were planning them. Nobody would benefit from a head-to-head war between Dapol and Hornby, not even us modellers as we would lose a source of prototypes.

Here in Japan the market is large enough to support duplication of the more mainstream models over two or three manufacturers (while still leaving space for niche manufacturers to cover the more obscure stuff). For the UK market however I don't see any benefit for any significant overlap; there's certainly enough room to cover items not otherwise available. I wouldn't be in the least interested in say a Hornby 47 even if it was a couple of quid less than the BachFar model; but a 116/117/118 DMU or something with pantograph (preferably in BR blue), to name some random examples from my wishlist would be something I'd sign up for.

Quote from: railsquid on February 27, 2015, 09:55:05 AM
Here in Japan the market is large enough to support duplication of the more mainstream models over two or three manufacturers (while still leaving space for niche manufacturers to cover the more obscure stuff). For the UK market however I don't see any benefit for any significant overlap; there's certainly enough room to cover items not otherwise available.

I agree. With house sizes steadily dropping, we may reach the situation that exists in Japan where N Gauge is an equivalent market to HO but we have a way to go yet. We have only had a couple of head-to-heads so far between Dapol and Farish (the Voyager and B1, have there been any others?). Both have resulted in Dapol not doing further runs of their model.

Now I have no problem with Darwinian selection when it comes to models. But fewer manufacturers would in general mean fewer prototypes being produced. Competition is good for the market, good for the scale as whole and good for us modellers. Just look at how the entry of Dapol into the N Gauge market has prompted Farish to raise their game.

Neither manufacturer is perfect. Farish seem to have done several "land-grab" announcements recently (they announced the N Gauge Castle almost 2 years ago but last I heard, they have not even started work on it yet). Dapol seem to have made several silly mistakes recently (livery errors on the DVT and GWR coaches, wrong brake 3rd for the Maunsells). However I think that competition rather than duplication is the best way to resolve these problems.

Quote from: Karhedron on February 27, 2015, 10:26:24 AM
However I think that competition rather than duplication is the best way to resolve these problems.

I agree.
So why DJM and Dapol are going head-to-head on the Class 59 is beyond me :confused2:

Quote from: newportnobby on February 27, 2015, 11:11:00 AM
So why DJM and Dapol are going head-to-head on the Class 59 is beyond me :confused2:

Hi Mick

Put simply, I don't believe both will happen.  I genuinely have no idea who will blink first and I really hope that one of them produces a 59 as they really get everywhere for such a small class.

Cheers, Mike

Dapol and Farish both do the 66. Did they both do the 86 too?

Quote from: red_death on February 27, 2015, 11:15:30 AM

Quote from: newportnobby on February 27, 2015, 11:11:00 AM
So why DJM and Dapol are going head-to-head on the Class 59 is beyond me :confused2:

Hi Mick

Put simply, I don't believe both will happen.  I genuinely have no idea who will blink first and I really hope that one of them produces a 59 as they really get everywhere for such a small class.

Cheers, Mike

I'm quite sure you're right, Mike. I can't see both going the full distance but it does seem to be a bad case of 'brinkmanship' :unimpressed:

Quote from: ScottyStitch on February 27, 2015, 11:20:24 AM
Dapol and Farish both do the 66. Did they both do the 86 too?

I don't think Farish have ever done an 86 but you are right about the 66 (I forgot that one earlier).

IIRC, the 59 was announced around the time Dave left Dapol. Maybe it was an idea he didn't want to leave behind?

Quote from: mark100 on February 27, 2015, 02:38:58 AM
I had a Hornby APT when I was younger, It was my favorite train on my layout and I am totally surprised that no one has factory produced it in N gauge, I would work overtime just be able to buy a 10 car set..

While not N, are you aware of the APT/E model that is being developed for Locomotion ?

Re the APT/P in N - it's a niche model; hardly a successful prototype (and not for the right reasons).  The 'garage producers' are happy to take a punt, but the big boys ?  Nah ...

Mike

Quote from: Karhedron on February 27, 2015, 11:24:01 AM

Quote from: ScottyStitch on February 27, 2015, 11:20:24 AM
Dapol and Farish both do the 66. Did they both do the 86 too?

I don't think Farish have ever done an 86 but you are right about the 66 (I forgot that one earlier).

IIRC, the 59 was announced around the time Dave left Dapol. Maybe it was an idea he didn't want to leave behind?

I sit corrected re the 86  :thumbsup:

Re: duplication, I honestly believe there is a market for more than one Class 47 or Class 37 model. Think about Lima in the other scale, how long they were peddling new liveries, the sheer variety of liveries and numbers, meant that they also tapped in to the collectors market unlike standard models. Bachmann have produced an excellent model in their 37 and 47 but have barely touched the surface...

Don't forget Lima eventually went bust! I'm not sure their business model is the way to go!

The 4mm market is somewhere in the region of 3-5 times the size of 2mm so you have a lot more leeway to produce models that don't sell well (or at least as well as expected/necessary).

Cheers, Mike

Quote from: Karhedron on February 27, 2015, 11:24:01 AM

Quote from: ScottyStitch on February 27, 2015, 11:20:24 AM
Dapol and Farish both do the 66. Did they both do the 86 too?

I don't think Farish have ever done an 86 but you are right about the 66 (I forgot that one earlier).

IIRC, the 59 was announced around the time Dave left Dapol. Maybe it was an idea he didn't want to leave behind?

I placed a pre-order for 2x class 59's on September the 14th 2012, surely it shouldn't take this long between announcing a model and still not seeing it, should it? Someone somewhere needs to get a grip and produce them. Coincidentally I've got 59 Yeoman wagons sat in the sidings awaiting their next turn of duty. 32 of these have already been loaded and I'm afraid the weeds and moss will be growing through soon if they're not emptied!

Quote from: Trainfish on February 27, 2015, 12:18:02 PM

Quote from: Karhedron on February 27, 2015, 11:24:01 AM

Quote from: ScottyStitch on February 27, 2015, 11:20:24 AM
Dapol and Farish both do the 66. Did they both do the 86 too?

I don't think Farish have ever done an 86 but you are right about the 66 (I forgot that one earlier).

IIRC, the 59 was announced around the time Dave left Dapol. Maybe it was an idea he didn't want to leave behind?

I placed a pre-order for 2x class 59's on September the 14th 2012, surely it shouldn't take this long between announcing a model and still not seeing it, should it? Someone somewhere needs to get a grip and produce them. Coincidentally I've got 59 Yeoman wagons sat in the sidings awaiting their next turn of duty. 32 of these have already been loaded and I'm afraid the weeds and moss will be growing through soon if they're not emptied!

Unfortunately, some people have been waiting longer than 2 years for a model to hit the shelves from announcement..........

Doesn't make it right! For the second time today I'm recording my awe at the way this industry operates, whether it's over ambition on the part of the manufacturers or outright lies, the hideous delays on new models are absolutely ridiculous!

DJM used the same press release for the 59 as Dapol, same pictures, the lot. May have been Dave staking his claim as it was 'his' model at Dapol, but IMO a very odd tactic. I doubt we'll see either for some years quite honestly.

I almost wish I'd never bothered to start looking at forums and what not for new announcements! I could exist in blissful ignorance, totally unaware of a 59, 92, Pacer etc etc.

No-one said it made it right........

Quote from: ScottyStitch on February 27, 2015, 12:25:48 PM
Unfortunately, some people have been waiting longer than 2 years for a model to hit the shelves from announcement..........

I appreciate that, I was just using it as an example. It's almost 2.5 years now along with my class 50, 33 and 31 pre-orders.

Quote from: njee20 on February 27, 2015, 01:06:39 PM
I almost wish I'd never bothered to start looking at forums and what not for new announcements! I could exist in blissful ignorance, totally unaware of a 59, 92, Pacer etc etc.

The only trouble then is with the limited quantities produced of each model you may well miss out if you don't have a pre-order in. Catch 22 springs to mind.

Quote from: Trainfish on February 27, 2015, 01:55:22 PM

Quote from: njee20 on February 27, 2015, 01:06:39 PM
I almost wish I'd never bothered to start looking at forums and what not for new announcements! I could exist in blissful ignorance, totally unaware of a 59, 92, Pacer etc etc.

The only trouble then is with the limited quantities produced of each model you may well miss out if you don't have a pre-order in. Catch 22 springs to mind.

Maybe it's good fortune, but I've never missed out on anything using the Hattons/Rails/MRD etc notifications/release emails! I still like knowing what's coming, and await the various announcements like a child at Christmas, but I do have to balance that with a "this will be many many years, if at all" sensible thought!

Some delays are of course inevitable - in my main hobby of cycling, some pedals I was interested in were delayed by about 5 years, but in the main the companies would be slaughtered if stuff was more than a couple of months late, let alone years being the norm.

When Dave Jones left Dapol I honestly thought it was to join Hornby. I felt that they were going to expand their the N gauge products and had possibly secured him for his knowledge.
I was wrong about him being secured by Hornby, but right about them dipping further into N gauge, albeit a bit later. Perhaps we may eventually see DJM joining Hornby as a partner of some sort?
I wonder if Hornby could score by being able to bring models to the market quicker than Farish and Dapol?
I have a  Farish 64xx reserved at pre-increase price, but with limited funds for playing trains could be tempted by something coming to market before it.

Given the problems they have been having with manufacturing lately, I doubt Hornby will be any faster to the shelves than Dapol or Bachmann.  All the big manufacturers have the same problem in the outsourced manufacture is inherently more prone to delay as the factories do not wait for them. They may book a production slot but if they miss their slot whilst perfecting the CADs or tooling, they have to go to the back of the queue again. If an error is found, it might only take a month to correct but if the model misses its slot, it can end up being set back a year.

On the other hand, we sometimes have models arriving almost out of the blue. I am not certain but it would not surprise me if this happens because a company jumps in to take a production slot that has been vacated at the last minute.

If you look at the issues dapol and grefar suffer in the manufacturing phase sadly this is going to hit everyone at some stage.

My hopes are purely that If hornby are really having a go at N gauge again then with them and DJM in the market for sure (when we see a djm model) and hopefully Rapido post Pendolino we may see the range available in N gauge really grow.

A lot of its and maybe but hey as N gauge modellers we are used to waiting  :hmmm:

A lot of its and maybe but hey as N gauge modellers we are used to waiting  :hmmm:
[/quote]What did everyone do before the days of Internet? we brought a monthly subscription for Railway Modeler or Rail Enthusiast and each month there would may be a huge 1 page advert from Lima, Hornby, Mainline and Graham Farish, stating coming soon or available now with no prior announcement.

Now there is the internet with all these websites, forums, and people get upset when a model is not out when they expect it to be or take it to heart and get upset when something they want is not being announced as a new product. I actually miss the good old days of not knowing until I saw it on a shelf

Mark

Mark while I know where you are coming from but the digital age is here to stay love it or hate it.

But on the flip side in the old days they never announced it unless they knew when it was coming, these days its all about marking their territory and The only way to do it is announce it before the other guy does and we just have to wait and hope

Quote from: acko22 on February 27, 2015, 03:40:26 PM
Mark while I know where you are coming from but the digital age is here to stay love it or hate it.

But on the flip side in the old days they never announced it unless they knew when it was coming, these days its all about marking their territory and The only way to do it is announce it before the other guy does and we just have to wait and hope

I agree, but !!!some items have been duplicated and both seem to be selling well N Gauge Voyagers and class 66 locomotives, I'm not to clued up with steam locos but have seen various A4 and Britannia Class locomotives being offered. Maybe some locomotive class's are more popular than others which is why more than 1 manufacturer takes the plunge to offer them.

Mark

Fair point with the duplications. With the steamers like you I am not to clued up but duplication with them doesn't surprise me as they are the big sellers.

I wasn't aware both had done the voyagers thought it was only dapol and they didnt sell as well as hoped.
The likes of the 66s honestly they can sell lots of them so again I am not to suprised they are the modern 37 / 47 etc.
As modern isnt the biggest N gauge area of interest so they are staking their claims as there is only room for one maker per modern class.

Quote from: ScottyStitch on February 27, 2015, 08:34:01 AM
Getting back to the Hornby plans, I wonder if it would perhaps serve them well to continue with their Southern theme? If they were to shrink their "-HAL, 2-BIL, 4-VEP perhaps they would make that region more model-able? Especially if they realeased them all or at least a couple of them at the same time.


Scotty

Now that is a very good idea. I would definitely buy a BIL & HAL.

But I expect the bank balance will not be affected as at present their is nothing listed by any manufacturer that will enhance my layout.

Dodger

Dodger

I'd go for a model of a steam loco that's currently (or has been) seen quite widely across the network on specials.

My choice would be either a rebuilt Merchant Navy or Duke of Gloucester. :)

A model of 35028 Clan Line in green,
or 35005 Canadian Pacific preserved in its early BR blue livery
https://www.flickr.com/photos/sparrowhawk7/7071743729/ (https://www.flickr.com/photos/sparrowhawk7/7071743729/)
will do nicely for me.

Hornby could complement the above by bringing out its Pullman carriages in the smaller scale, complete with lighting. :drool:

Hi Trillikman,

I've not been able to find out a huge amount about the Hornby operation but what I do know is that current Hornby Arnold models are being designed in Spain, possibly by former Electrotren people.  This may explain why there are several new Spanish models in the latest announcements. 

I don't think any N Gauge stuff is being designed in the UK - it's very much the Arnold, rather than Hornby, name which is to the fore in N

Cheers

Ben A.

Having just come to this thread and read it through it would appear to me that Hornby  would be well advised to go for an iconic steam loco that is not covered by other manufacturers. I, personally, would like a Garrett, which would fit and also fill a need for large freight engines.
Alternatively they could continue with E.M.U's possibly something to fit the green diesel era such as a Clacton set.
The problem for modelers is that all the major players go for , in steam, big express engines while ignoring the workhorses.
I do feel, however that they should try as far as possible to concentrate on models that are not covered by anyone else.

I like the most recent post on the wish list thread on the Hornby forum towards the bottom of page 14

http://www.hornby.com/uk-en/forum/post/view/topic_id/8787/?p=14 (http://www.hornby.com/uk-en/forum/post/view/topic_id/8787/?p=14)

I think it could apply to Dapol and Bach/Farish just as well!

Which one? Assume you don't mean about the Rocket, which is now the most recent post...

Looking at their post they are been rather reserved about things, which is annoying as we are an impatient bunch I do find refreshing.

They are taking their time and not coming out all guns blaming until they are happy and firm in their next model which hopefully will mean it doesn't suffer delays greater than the offer of 140mph trains on the West coast (only been waiting since Virgin took over in 1997)

Quote from: acko22 on March 17, 2015, 04:35:51 PM
which hopefully will mean it doesn't suffer delays greater than the offer of 140mph trains on the West coast

A politician would argue that we do technically have 140mph trains on the WCML  :D

What would be good after one of these many polls / wishlists is done is for someone to come back and say this is what we're doing, this is what we might do and this is what we're never likely to do.

Personally I want a 141, 142 (supposed to be coming from Dapol but wrong model / livery) and most importantly a 144.
I bet you can't guess where I'm modelling.

I'm tempted to try and do the 144 myself but lack of time would make me pay someone else instead.

Whilst there are not that many untouched models left in the loco section of N gauge, I think there is still a long distance to go in this country in the way of reliability and quality of running etc. Whatever they produce, I hope they are pushing the boundaries in that department if nothing else...

Benn.