Hello folks,
I've been examining my choices for controllers both DC and DCC in recent weeks.
I've found ways to solve most problems and shortcomings which I have come across so far, but with just one exception.
Powering the things has some issues to work around; some controllers are supplied with a UK mains plug in the way which the UK regulations require of domestic appliances. That is just fine. Then there are some which come with a cable with a foreign plug, the Euro ones seem to be catered for and the American types also, they have adaptors which can either be one use (once closed over the plug then it cna not be undone, or a reusable type which requires the use of a tool to change from one plug to another, and both of these are fine in terms of what the regulations stipulate.
The only category remaining is those units supplied in Euro or USA wall wart format; there are adaptors for those, and while they may work, they fall foul of the regulations for electrical safety, since they do not contain the foreign plug (as the regs require) in it's entirely (obviously it's not realistic to do that) and they are not classified as being exempt under the law like say shavers and sometimes toothbrushes are, although they are only permitted to by used in non wet areas of a building.
This leaves a problem which I have not been able to find a proper (as in lawful) work around for. Now what we might individually feel about the law is one thing, however if there were to be a fire and a device such as this was found in the after incident forensics, then it might be that this would provide a claims negotiator for an insurer with enough wiggle room to refute any claim made in that circumstance, which would not be helpful for any of us in such a situation.
It is that rather chilling possibility that has lead me to raise this matter, in the spirit of that choice most probably being for the greater good of this community. Better than choosing not to say anything at all I am certain.
I've done a bit of reading up to understand it as I do, and I've talked with one or two official bodies by phone. They have assured me that I am not misunderstanding the situation, and that it is a seriously risky proposition.
Any genuine work around known?
Quote from: Only Me on January 05, 2015, 12:21:50 PM
Not wanting to offend after your carefully worded question.
Could you not just cut said plug off and fit a uk plug commonly available from most hardware shops?
OR if you are talking about AC to DC step-down adapters firstly a US one wouldn't be any good as usually they require 110V AC not 240 as we have here in uk/europe, Maplins (among others) sell a vast range of AC to DC adapters, it would just require you to read said non uk adapter check the output voltage and current then go purchase a similar one.
Something like this would suit the job perfectly..
http://www.maplin.co.uk/p/maplin-60w-switched-mode-acdc-multi-voltage-power-supply-l11bq?gclid=CJ6aj9Xs_MICFWjItAoda1AAHg (http://www.maplin.co.uk/p/maplin-60w-switched-mode-acdc-multi-voltage-power-supply-l11bq?gclid=CJ6aj9Xs_MICFWjItAoda1AAHg)
Paul.
Well for wired ones, as said, there are proper adapters which enclose the foreign plug and are specifically approved for use at that point. Two flavours, one shot and reusable.
The problem is that some have USA and other type PSUs which are rated as being fine for 110-240 commonly, however they are a single brick with the foreign pins sticking out, and there are no approved adapters for them. There are un-approved means to make them work, but then they are simply unapproved and their lawful use is actually subject to question.
That's exactly why I was concerned.
Hope that makes the issue a little clearer; it is certainly not a fully simple matter!
Ian, the law allows for an one shot adaptor plug, if you buy something without it's at your won risk and in case of a fire the insurance can deny your claim.
to avoid this issue, buy from a UK based shop as by law they should provide you the sufficient plug.
If you're that worried then change the plug and have it PAT tested. An insurer would struggle to get away with not paying out then.
Quote from: Trainfish on January 05, 2015, 12:58:30 PM
If you're that worried then change the plug and have it PAT tested. An insurer would struggle to get away with not paying out then.
Commonly the pins in question are moulded into the power supply brick, can't see any scope for making you suggestion work. I reckon anyone carrying out PAT test would simply reject anything treated in that manner.
Sorry if I am being dense here. :hmmm:
Quote from: Maurits71 on January 05, 2015, 12:48:58 PM
Ian, the law allows for an one shot adaptor plug, if you buy something without it's at your won risk and in case of a fire the insurance can deny your claim.
to avoid this issue, buy from a UK based shop as by law they should provide you the sufficient plug.
Yes for the wired ones, that is as I said exactly how to treat it. However this brick style issue cuts down choices, and as far as I can see those with a moulded PSU brick with non UK pins sticking out can not be made to work and still be in compliance. A couple that spring to mind are the one or more of the Powercab and the Gaugemaster products. Now I am only going by the pictures that they and their agents post, and they may indeed be able to offer the right thing, but I have not seen them online yet. By that some token, I have seen others where one has the choice to swap out the cable from the wall to the unit and use a UK one, so that's why it's only the brick brick that plugs into the wall which is the problem.
I've not bought anything yet, and so I am not yet in a position to be all that worried, but I'm still trying to see if I can get some choices for when I do purchase, hence wondering if there are any means by which those few problem products could become a smarter purchase than they currently are. I'm just trying to be careful with what I get myself in to.
Quote from: Ancient Hermit on January 05, 2015, 01:25:09 PM
Quote from: Trainfish on January 05, 2015, 12:58:30 PM
If you're that worried then change the plug and have it PAT tested. An insurer would struggle to get away with not paying out then.
Commonly the pins in question are moulded into the power supply brick, can't see any scope for making you suggestion work. I reckon anyone carrying out PAT test would simply reject anything treated in that manner.
Sorry if I am being dense here. :hmmm:
By a "power supply brick" do you mean a transformer with an integral plug of some description?
Quote from: Trainfish on January 05, 2015, 01:39:11 PM
Quote from: Ancient Hermit on January 05, 2015, 01:25:09 PM
Quote from: Trainfish on January 05, 2015, 12:58:30 PM
If you're that worried then change the plug and have it PAT tested. An insurer would struggle to get away with not paying out then.
Commonly the pins in question are moulded into the power supply brick, can't see any scope for making you suggestion work. I reckon anyone carrying out PAT test would simply reject anything treated in that manner.
Sorry if I am being dense here. :hmmm:
By a "power supply brick" do you mean a transformer with an integral plug of some description?
YUP! :)
I've only ever know them called "power bricks" and or "wall warts", never met your description in common parlance before (sheltered life I lead probably), but that's the one!
Anyway I guess the problem is more obvious now we have the right phrase. I don't know all the right words because I'm a newbie! Sorry for that.
The way most in OZ deal with this is to bin the wall-wart and buy a replacement power supply locally. Wouldn't take the chance of mucking about with adaptors or modifications.
Generally I would only be in this position if I imported directly and didn't get the shop to dump the power supply before shipping; it is illegal to sell anything but an approved plug in OZ.
Is this an option?
CFJ
Quote from: NinOz on January 05, 2015, 01:47:15 PM
The way most in OZ deal with this is to bin the wall-wart and buy a replacement power supply locally. Wouldn't take the chance of mucking about with adaptors or modifications.
Generally I would only be in this position if I imported directly and didn't get the shop to dump the power supply before shipping; it is illegal to sell anything but an approved plug in OZ.
Is this an option?
CFJ
Not exactly an option because the makers often say in their user manual that if you don't use their supply then the warranty is void.
The legality you mention in OZ is more or less the same here except it seems the law is not really upheld here due to "trading standards" being a regionally based affair and no one region has the clout to take on major manufacturers. So in short they can do whatever they like. This was revealed when doing my homework as I looked into this whole thing. I found that rather lacking and quite chilling.
I think for anyone to provide an answer we would need to know what controller you are looking to buy. Either that or just buy one which does comply with regulations.
Quote from: Trainfish on January 05, 2015, 02:01:21 PM
I think for anyone to provide an answer we would need to know what controller you are looking to buy. Either that or just buy one which does comply with regulations.
OK, I surrender, I shall go get my coat. :) :sorrysign:
Quote from: Ancient Hermit on January 05, 2015, 01:58:59 PM
"trading standards" being a regionally based affair and no one region has the clout to take on major manufacturers. So in short they can do whatever they like.
An interesting thread.
I have no expertise nor authority in these matters, so cannot help, but I am intrigued by your ref to the competences of the regional TS.
Surely the law is the law, enforced or not, so would there not be a claim against the vendor in the event of damage done to you, whether or not your insurer covered you ?
(not trying to be controversial, just curious )
Quote from: Ancient Hermit on January 05, 2015, 02:06:35 PM
OK, I surrender, I shall go get my coat. :) :sorrysign:
Oh dont go now, it was just getting interesting ! lol! :) :)
Quote from: MalcolmAL on January 05, 2015, 02:12:25 PM
Quote from: Ancient Hermit on January 05, 2015, 01:58:59 PM
"trading standards" being a regionally based affair and no one region has the clout to take on major manufacturers. So in short they can do whatever they like.
An interesting thread.
I have no expertise nor authority in these matters, so cannot help, but I am intrigued by your ref to the competences of the regional TS.
Surely the law is the law, enforced or not, so would there not be a claim against the vendor in the event of damage done to you, whether or not your insurer covered you ?
(not trying to be controversial, just curious )
I simply googled for"Euro UK mains adapter" and other variations along those lines adjusting for countries etc, and there were plenty of horror stories to be seen. Wiki does a pretty good job of explaining in fairly plain English just what UK standards are. It allows for some foreign systems to be accommodated but it also clearly rules out others. Sadly it's not even like it is consistent across each manufacturer. This leaves it to be a bit of a lottery, but with alarmingly serious consequences.
One day I just saw a picture on a vendor's online shop and it made we think "what's going on there, looks like the wrong plug", and being a somewhat cautious shopper I felt it better that I went to find out and frankly, I just wish I'd never seen that picture, because now I feel like I'm just bashing my head against a wall.
Oh well. ::)
How large a layout is being planned?
My layout is 12ft x 2ft 6 and like many on the forum, I'm a Powercab user and they, as an example, like all NCE power units come with only twin pin plugs as per USA. All you need is a three pin shaver adaptor and your problem is solved! :thumbsup:
Digitrains highlight the need of the shaver socket for use with the NCE P114 power unit (Powercab/Powerpro).http://www.digitrains.co.uk/ecommerce/search/powercab-power-supply.aspx (http://www.digitrains.co.uk/ecommerce/search/powercab-power-supply.aspx)
The same solution will apply for the european stuff too. It's not as if you will be running trains 24/7 (or maybe you will) then you might need to seriously review how you power a layout.
Your household supply will be be fused protected, three pin shaver adaptors are fused protected which you can fit a 3 amp fuse
While I wouldn't poo hoo safety regulations, I have to live with them, I feel common sense needs to come into play here.
Yer !
As I said, you raise an interesting topic and made me think about all my stuff, being a dinasour I would just reach for the old shaver adaptors that we still have from when we went camping 'abroad' back in the 60/70s !
So basically you are divided into two ? :
1 ) is there a legal work-round
because (2 ) what if it all comes to grief !
Dunno about (1)
If (2) would/could your insurer refuse ?
I, being only an innocent, would assume they could not if _you_ had not done anything unreasonable. They, the insurer would need to recover their loss against the vendor/ manufacturer for it is they not you that is competent to decide what is correct/ reasonable /legal useage ?
How am I doing so far :) ?
Quote from: Only Me on January 05, 2015, 02:59:57 PM
Sometimes threads go too far...delve to deeply into the quagmire.... I think this is one of those :)
:laughabovepost: You may be right I dursnt say :)
but sometimes they even begin that way ??
I nearly used that horrid expression "from the get-go" !
But it doesnt stop them being interesting if one has an afternoon to kill :sorrysign:
What is the likelihood of it coming to grief and burning the house down? I am assuming that you would not have the system running 24/7 and that you would be in attendance whilst it was up and running - and maybe able to turn off the electricity if things did go bang?
If I am being dense :dunce: and have missed the point then I apologise :sorrysign:
Getting a bit lost here, was going to suggest one of the multipin adapters
in airport shops but perhaps too risky........
The simplest and easiest fix is as only me said. Cutthe plug off and swap for a three pin. Most transformers use standard three wires. Live, neutral and earth.
The other thing to remember not all pictures shown are what you get they are generic. The outlets over here often swap adapters to suit uk regs.
Quote from: Pengi on January 05, 2015, 03:46:27 PM,
,
missed the point then I apologise
It is a good point
, ,
no I dont think so, except perhaps that AncientHermit (OP) wanted to explore all avenues in detail ?
and just for discussion, perhaps it could be argued that even though you were nominally in attendance, wot about when you went off looking for that cup of coffee that NPN forgot where he put ?
Ok I'll get my coat as well :)
I'm not sure I understand this thread. Why not just by the controller with the correct plug for local outlets?
If it's one of the main manufacturers, I'd have thought it would be in their interests to be able to supply a plug that fit the market they were selling in. The NCE Powercab I bought came with a UK plug..........
I'm not convinced safety laws are supposed to be "worked around", or there would be little point in them.........
Quote from: Pengi on January 05, 2015, 03:46:27 PM
What is the likelihood of it coming to grief and burning the house down? I am assuming that you would not have the system running 24/7 and that you would be in attendance whilst it was up and running - and maybe able to turn off the electricity if things did go bang?
If I am being dense :dunce: and have missed the point then I apologise :sorrysign:
Coincidentally a few days back there was a report on RMWeb of the 3 pin UK moulded plug on a 3D printer catching fire. The plug was fitted with a 13 amp fuse which turned out to be a dummy so basically would never have fused. OK there was a fault somewhere else to allow too much current to flow but you may not even be able to rely on what appears to be a compliant plug.
Curious, the plug catching fire. The fire usually occurs where the short is, as that generates the heat. Even if fitted with a dummy fuse, the 30amp fuse in the consumer unit should have popped.
Quote from: Malc on January 05, 2015, 05:32:23 PM
Curious, the plug catching fire. The fire usually occurs where the short is, as that generates the heat. Even if fitted with a dummy fuse, the 30amp fuse in the consumer unit should have popped.
History/mystery is here:- http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/94161-help-exploding-plug-on-3d-printer/ (http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/94161-help-exploding-plug-on-3d-printer/)
Quote from: Malc on January 05, 2015, 05:32:23 PM
Curious, the plug catching fire. The fire usually occurs where the short is, as that generates the heat. Even if fitted with a dummy fuse, the 30amp fuse in the consumer unit should have popped.
Could it be that it was a plug with a built in DC power supply - this quite common with things like printers. If that was the case, then a fault in the power supply part could have caused the heat. There have been a number of reports of USB type 13A plug power supplies catching fire - e-cigarettes for instance.
Last few posts made me curious and I had a look at my Gaugemaster
plug in wall transformer which appears to be sealed with no access
to a fuse if there is one, must dig out the instruction leaflet to see if
this is mentioned .
Quote from: Agrippa on January 05, 2015, 05:47:44 PM
Last few posts made me curious and I had a look at my Gaugemaster
plug in wall transformer which appears to be sealed with no access
to a fuse if there is one, must dig out the instruction leaflet to see if
this is mentioned .
As far as I am aware plugs with built in power supplies do not generally have accessible fuses. Quick examples - USB power supplies/chargers. Mains network connectors. Printer Power supplies
Hold on fellows. There are standards and there are regulations and there are laws.
As I understand it, the manufacturing and import regulations require anything with a plug to have a wired plug to fit the 13 amp UK standard socket complaint to the relevant British Standard. Exemptions can be obtained for other European standards but not the American 110 V three bin spade type.
Adapters are commercially available to convert "approved" plugs to fit the British 13 amp standard square pin plug.
Mess around and use any non approved set up and not only will you have insurance claim trouble, the electricity supplier may well claim damages from you as well for disruption to the network.
The trouble is that it's virtually uncontrollable. Damage after the event often destroys incriminating evidence so the chances of either the local authority, the electricity supplier, the adapter supplier, the appliance supplier or yourself as the haplas user being caught are almost nil.
Maybe time to relax. If you wedge wires into the socket using matchsticks you probably deserve all that's coming. Forcing a Euro flat two pin into the standard outlet can work but only if socket and appliance fit well and do not overload the plug's rating.
The safest bet is to use an approved adapter with the necessary approval marks molded on. Please note that Chinese text probably does not count.
Fpr clarity (or to confuse matters) I'll add some pictures.
The issue, as I understand it, is that this:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/96/Euro_converter_plug2.jpg)
is fine. However you can't fit this:
(http://www.analoguesolutions.org.uk/aspics/access/12vac-eu.jpg)
into such a converter
Quote from: Luke Piewalker on January 05, 2015, 06:22:05 PM
Fpr clarity (or to confuse matters) I'll add some pictures.
The issue, as I understand it, is that this:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/96/Euro_converter_plug2.jpg)
is fine. However you can't fit this:
(http://www.analoguesolutions.org.uk/aspics/access/12vac-eu.jpg)
into such a converter
Yes, that is pretty much what it boils down to.
But also the act of a retailer selling anything with a foreign plug
today requires them to supply the means to adapt it, and that should be correctly fitted by them at the time of the sale. At least that's how the central govt trading standards call handler put it to me. Doing otherwise was seen as a criminal act so they explained. The bottom line from them that under no circumstances should I attempt to use it. It seemed fair enough advice to me given all the other stuff they explained.
Thanks for posting those pics I was not able! :thankyousign:
Quote from: Pengi on January 05, 2015, 03:46:27 PM
What is the likelihood of it coming to grief and burning the house down? I am assuming that you would not have the system running 24/7 and that you would be in attendance whilst it was up and running - and maybe able to turn off the electricity if things did go bang?
If I am being dense :dunce: and have missed the point then I apologise :sorrysign:
I quite agree with you there. Better still use a proper transformer power supply and not the cheap and nasty wall mounted things we are so often forced to use these days.
Dodger
My original NCE Powercab came with a two pin plug and the requirement for a shaver adapter. But last year I bought a SB5 Smart booster upgrade and that came with a std UK 3 pin plug. Whether Digitrains changed the plug I am not sure, but it is easy enough to swap the two pin for a std UK 3 pin with appropiate fuse.
I do see the point in the OP's thread, but i think for many folk the level of technical 'spiel' have left many with sore heads through too much head scratching. :confused1:
For people to be aware of the issue is good but i think it would be a great idea to empthasise the point that anyone using model rail electrical power supplies/transformers should stick only to UK conformed/certified equipment.
This would eliminate any potential safety concerns and future insurance payout worries.
If in doubt when it comes to electrical appliances dont use it, if your happy using non UK conformed/certified kit then fine.....but its your responsibility if anything went wrong :o :thankyousign:
I have seen countless times folk using shaver adapters for use for anything other and that's dangerous -I've seen them melted and burned so many times. I have seen so many folk bypass the warnings on them and come to me asking what went wrong -they're not meant for anything other than shavers. My recollection is even that there's a mm or so difference in the pin spacing to stop folk putting other things in there -but they'll still push fit easy-eough. Likewise mobile phone chargers are not meant to be PSU's -yet they are recommended as such everywhere.
A little common sense is required. As someone who spent 2 years getting a huge system CE marked into industry once I also know that I would have preferred the good old days of the kite mark to show some aspects were actually tested safe. Alas the brussel sprouts now put too much on the end user to free up trade. At the end of the day, I can think of very few electrical products sold now which don't have the caveat on them that they must not be left unsupervised.
I can see the point of the OP -but not sure where the level of alarm comes from.
QuoteMy original NCE Powercab came with a two pin plug and the requirement for a shaver adapter. But last year I bought a SB5 Smart booster upgrade and that came with a std UK 3 pin plug. Whether Digitrains changed the plug I am not sure, but it is easy enough to swap the two pin for a std UK 3 pin with appropiate fuse.
....My Powercab came "UK" version with a 3 pin 240v wall-wart PSU -ironically the same one not suited for the Kato controller but always works fine for me on the cab. Mind you, I chose my cab from a UK supplier so there was no PSU problems. -Shaver adapter NO!!!!!!, USE A PROPER ADAPTER PLEASE.
I have just come to check out my Powercab adapter, I have not used it for a while now I am using the Booster instead. You can not fit a 3 pin plug its a American 2 pin adapter, you have to use it with the shaver adapter which I think was supplied,it does have a fuse..I only need it occasionally when I need to use the program track, I might replace it sometime in the future.
Quote from: lil chris on January 07, 2015, 10:16:39 PM
I have just come to check out my Powercab adapter, I have not used it for a while now I am using the Booster instead. You can not fit a 3 pin plug its a American 2 pin adapter, you have to use it with the shaver adapter which I think was supplied,it does have a fuse..I only need it occasionally when I need to use the program track, I might replace it sometime in the future.
What you are confronted with there is one of many reasons the NCE DCC Twin appealed to me (in the other thread), I can side step this situation as that one has a PSU block that also has figure 8 plugged input cable, and there are 13A fused UK ones of them to replace the USA one. That is how I think your larger 5 amp psu works too. So take a Twin, add a Procab and I got something similar which will be more than adequate for my almost 5 mtrs of track in two loops and my 2 locos. I can buy all that in "instalments" one unit at time too, gets me up and running 2-3 months quicker into the bargain! :)
I see where you are coming from Ian but like I said in my earlier thread I would give Digitrains a ring if I where you. My SB5 booster came with a English 3 pin plug, maybe the new Powercabs do too now. I have heard some regulations have also changed in the USA. NCE sent me the upgrade chip for my Powercab, I have had mine for about 2 years now, the recall stack can now be enabled to 6 loco's. I had already bought the upgrade to the SB5 booster which also has a recall stack of 6. I have trouble trying to run 2 never mind 6....he...he......even though you can just flick between them. Which ever way you go it's your choice , you can't go far wrong with NCE gear, I just think for the extra £34 or so you get more functionality.
What is the risk assessment if you remove the plug when you're not there?
Not sure Bob but I'd like to see the method statement for you to be able to do that.
Quote from: Trainfish on January 11, 2015, 11:52:12 PM
Not sure Bob but I'd like to see the method statement for you to be able to do that.
I was thinking similar , lol! but refrained from saying so because of getting shouted at in another thread for going off subject and being 'disrespectfull to the OP' (and it was agreed by a mod !) !
Telekinesis ?
At my age I need to do a risk assesment on forgetting to remove the siginificant item before leaving :)
Not sure what method statements and risk assessments have to do
with toy trains, thought it may be to do with nuclear warheads
fireworks, or out of date stuff in the freezer..
At the risk of spinning this thread out even longer, exactly what is the safety issue here?
Is it that the adapter won't handle the current? Or a shock risk when plugging/unplugging? Or something else?
It's hard to imagine it to be the current as the applications we are talking about must draw a pretty small current. The little telly on my desk has a two pin plug and is plugged into the mains via an adapter that came with it - no problems so far after about five years.
Is a "shaver adapter" a different beast from a general 2-3pin adapter?
Yours confused Jon :confused1:
Quote from: PostModN66 on January 12, 2015, 10:53:41 AM
At the risk of spinning this thread out even longer, exactly what is the safety issue here?
Errrrum, if you can determine that then you are a better man than I gunga din :)
None of the above I think, just how to use whatever it was he found using EU approved devices and to remain within his insurance cover ?? I could be wrong !
Kindof like a thought experiment, bit like what Einstein did and that got us Relativity.
There is no easy way to say this - I think you will have to read it all from post #1 onwards, sorry :laugh:
Meanwhile I think I will step outside, I could be gone some time.
Nurse, nurse, pills please.
Quote from: MalcolmAL on January 12, 2015, 12:20:34 PM
Quote from: PostModN66 on January 12, 2015, 10:53:41 AM
At the risk of spinning this thread out even longer, exactly what is the safety issue here?
There is no easy way to say this - I think you will have to read it all from post #1 onwards, sorry :laugh:
As we say in Jockshire, "Aye, right " :D
QuoteIs a "shaver adapter" a different beast from a general 2-3pin adapter?
...few years ago they were. There was a mm or two different on pin spacing to prevent you from using them as power adapters, I've seen shaver adapters melt many times because you could still force the pins in -or you aren't using them for a shaver, just use the proper adapter, theyre not expensive.
Quote from: RST on January 20, 2015, 10:55:41 PM
QuoteIs a "shaver adapter" a different beast from a general 2-3pin adapter?
...few years ago they were. There was a mm or two different on pin spacing to prevent you from using them as power adapters, I've seen shaver adapters melt many times because you could still force the pins in -or you aren't using them for a shaver, just use the proper adapter, theyre not expensive.
And then there is this advice from a well respected retailer, and I quote:
"P114 POWERCAB POWER SUPPLY
An additional or replacement DC power supply for the Power Cab system and other model railroad uses. Input 120VAC/220VAC, output 13.5VDC 2A peak. CE approved requires Shaver adaptor 2 to 3 pin. "
You can easily see how these things may go awry: Your advice is good, the retailer's advice could certainly benefit from some review.
I don't for a minute suspect they would be the only retailer offering such poor advice either. It looks like it could have been copied and pasted from an American source, (the word railroad, and the spelling of adaptor instead of adapter is a good clue here) and the original author won't by default be so well versed in our local regulations. The product may not have even been targeted for the UK market in the first place.
These subtle differences should not sensibly be left to chance, and the purchaser is not always likely to realise the potential problem lurking within such advice, especially if a small boy spending his gifted Christmas loot for example.
I'd just like to see model railways being something one could safely purchase and operate. Anything that helps this become the norm is surely something to welcome?
Stay safe one and all.
Quote from: Ancient Hermit on January 21, 2015, 07:45:00 AM
An additional or replacement DC power supply for the Power Cab system and other model railroad uses. Input 120VAC/220VAC, output 13.5VDC 2A peak. CE approved requires Shaver adaptor 2 to 3 pin. "
Still don't really get it - if output is 2A at 13.5 v, input current at 250v would be of order 100mA.
Can a shaver socket really not handle this without melting? What current does a shaver draw?!
Yours genuinely not really understanding........Jon :confused1:
Quote from: PostModN66 on January 21, 2015, 05:24:04 PM
Quote from: Ancient Hermit on January 21, 2015, 07:45:00 AM
An additional or replacement DC power supply for the Power Cab system and other model railroad uses. Input 120VAC/220VAC, output 13.5VDC 2A peak. CE approved requires Shaver adaptor 2 to 3 pin. "
Still don't really get it - if output is 2A at 13.5 v, input current at 250v would be of order 100mA.
Can a shaver socket really not handle this without melting? What current does a shaver draw?!
Yours genuinely not really understanding........Jon :confused1:
Hi
I certainly have a problem then as my shaver plug is fitted with a 1A fuse and it is only used for charging my shaver. I too am puzzled why 100mA is going to cause a meltdown.
Cheers
Paul
Quote from: PostModN66 on January 21, 2015, 05:24:04 PM
Quote from: Ancient Hermit on January 21, 2015, 07:45:00 AM
An additional or replacement DC power supply for the Power Cab system and other model railroad uses. Input 120VAC/220VAC, output 13.5VDC 2A peak. CE approved requires Shaver adaptor 2 to 3 pin. "
Still don't really get it - if output is 2A at 13.5 v, input current at 250v would be of order 100mA.
Can a shaver socket really not handle this without melting? What current does a shaver draw?!
Yours genuinely not really understanding........Jon :confused1:
I have a shaver adapter to hand. It bears the following: "FOR UK SHAVERS AND TOOTHBRUSHES ONLY" - this is moulded/embossed into the front panel of the unit. (note that is not cheap to do so clearly it must be a needed/required thing)
It says that because that is what the regs call for it to say.
A model railway is clearly not a shaver or toothbrush of any sort.
It's pretty straightforward in my view.
This is all thats needed to convert 2 to 3 pin. Has built in fuse as well.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/B0000934J2/ref=pd_aw_sbs_ce_1?refRID=07N1RKV26DS7DR0FYJ96 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/B0000934J2/ref=pd_aw_sbs_ce_1?refRID=07N1RKV26DS7DR0FYJ96)
Jonny
Quote from: Only Me on January 21, 2015, 05:40:33 PM
[smg id=20527 type=full align=center caption="image"]
Yeah, it's hard to imagine how, but there it goes again!
Wish I had never noticed the problem, and if I ever find another problem like it you can be sure I would probably just keep it to myself.
Quote from: PostModN66 on January 21, 2015, 05:24:04 PM
Can a shaver socket really not handle this without melting?
I don't think we're talking about a shaver
socket, Jon. That will have a low-power transformer built in to isolate it from the mains.
I suppose if an
adapter were to be short-circuited it could melt, but not if it's fitted with a suitable fuse.
All British domestic dwellings should have RCBO protection fitted to the sockets which should trip within 40ms giving much better protection than having to rely on a fuse popping. Personally I would never use any form of adaptor to a standard UK plug. If I was unable to cut off the supplied plug and replace with a UK one because the transformer had the pins built in I would rather replace the power supply unit and risk voiding the warranty
Found this...
Items which do not need a plug when sold:-
5. Any appliance which is fitted with a plug transformer but note that the technical aspects of BS 1362 must still be met.
That's in here... http://www.norfolk.gov.uk/view/ncc048437 (http://www.norfolk.gov.uk/view/ncc048437)
Further reading on "the shaver adapter"...
The purpose of these adaptors is to accept the 2 pin plugs of shavers, they are required to be marked as such. Shaver adaptors must have a 1 Amp BS 646 fuse. They must accept UK shaver plugs complying with BS 4573 and also Europlugs and American two-pin plugs.
That's from here... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BS_1362#Fuses (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BS_1362#Fuses)
From a practical point of view a small item (rated for 230v use) plugged into the shaver adapter will work (may not look nice, hang at an odd angle and eventually the pins may snap off etc). But, IF it develops a fault and IF your shaver adapted hasn't got a fuse it will be exposed to a fault current of around 90+amps (assuming the ring main is supplied from the standard 32Amp B type MCB). That's ample for a big black mark and/or fire.
If you want to use the shaver adapter - please make sure it's a fused one.
Ideally as per warlokk's suggestion, get an equivalent PSU with the correct plug from a reputable supplier.
Russ
In other words just buy the correct thing for UK use...