Hi All
I have been sorting through all my stock boxes tonight and I notice that I was paying about £11 for a MK1 coach 18 years ago!
Locos were around £70 for a steamer
That was a lot of money nearly 20 years ago
Prices may be going up but still a lot better value than the distant past!
:hmmm:
When I started N in 1997 I recall buying a brand new Farish Duchess for £54.
Current price (of a much superior new tooled model) is £127.
We can debate I guess the merits of pricing (and model quality) if we wish, but the alarming thing I read on RMWeb is that prices are slated to go up 20% per yer for several years...
Cheers,
Alan
Hi Alan
Labour costs are due to increase 20% year on year for the next 3-4 years in China, but that does not mean end product prices will rise 20% (that will depend on how labour intensive particular models are ie buy your Polybulks now!).
Cheers, Mike
Quote from: Dr Al on January 03, 2015, 01:09:33 AMthe alarming thing I read on RMWeb is that prices are slated to go up 20% per yer for several years...
Me alarmed too ! I saw that as well, I dont think any "authority" was ref.ed or quoted ???
I will have to go back and look.
Mind-u if DJM can maintain his price predictions it will widen a space for him ?
Quote from: red_death on January 03, 2015, 01:18:54 AM
in China,
Good points, I took the RMWeb post to be GF specific, implying end buyer cost,
so yes, we'd all better take a deep breath and think on't :)
Quote from: red_death on January 03, 2015, 01:18:54 AM
Hi Alan
Labour costs are due to increase 20% year on year for the next 3-4 years in China, but that does not mean end product prices will rise 20% (that will depend on how labour intensive particular models are ie buy your Polybulks now!).
Cheers, Mike
Ooops, yes. Still will end up with continuing price rises I guess... :uneasy:
I wonder at what point they'll start thinking of moving elsewhere from China. Maybe that's a long way off, but I wonder.
Cheers,
Alan
>> Labour costs are due to increase 20%
'due to' or 'predicted to' ?
'Due to' implies some inevitability, I think it is more a prediction by the financial talking heads.
There is already significant slow down in the China bubble and when push come to shove what may be wished for in financial circles may not come to pass. ( which will be sad for the peoples of China)
>> "continuing price rises I guess"
I guess, fact of life along with taxes and death :)
Perhaps we should not panic just yet ? :) !
Funny how we can look in a draw and find a 15-20 year old loco that still runs, I don't care what I pay for a decent running reliable loco but sometimes I feel as though I have been robbed :thumbsdown:
'Used to be'? methinks a joke no?
My Local Model Shop will be thrilled to hear that, especially as their 'old' stock still carries prices even now that only Croesus in all his magnificence could afford...
Needless to say they are not well patronised by the local N-scale fraternity.
Quote from: MalcolmAL on January 03, 2015, 02:10:59 AM
>> Labour costs are due to increase 20%
'due to' or 'predicted to' ?
'Due to' implies some inevitability, I think it is more a prediction by the financial talking heads.
There is already significant slow down in the China bubble and when push come to shove what may be wished for in financial circles may not come to pass. ( which will be sad for the peoples of China)
>> "continuing price rises I guess"
I guess, fact of life along with taxes and death :)
Perhaps we should not panic just yet ? :) !
The compulsory wage rises have been set by the government so it's fact and not a prediction. Whether as many say it will actually be of benefit to many workers is another matter if jobs are lost as a result.
Izzy
when I was six I was always send to buy bread and she only gave me 25 p, I remember that my Dad earned 25 quit a week. Guys the past is dead ;)
My first brand new G/F Panier cost me £3-7s -6 and it's still running at least once a week at least 2 new locos I've had last year have been sent back after a week or two . A 153 was replaced 4 times before I got one that worked many thanks to KERNOW Models so although the detail has gone up along with the prices the reliability has not I also have some Minitrix Warships over 30 years old and still going strong .
I Personaly wouldn't mind paying the higher prices if the reliability was as Good as it used to be but today's models have something the old ones didn't ,that is built in obsolescents, now it's a lottery as to wether you get a good loco or a duffer .I would love some of the Dapol steam Locos they look superb but how long will they last and how many coaches will they pull I can't afford to gamble my pension so will have to resist unless I find a real bargain that's tried and tested by someone .
Bob
I really wonder what kind of profits GF are making per loco, surely it must be well over 50% so realistically if Kato can pass fare prices for there Locomotives why can not the likes of GF.
I really need to dig up some actual figures, but Kato has the luxury of a larger market (twice the population of the UK, leaving out export markets) where N-gauge is dominant (HO is a minority for apparently very rich people, if the prices are anything to go by). They have a mighty nice HQ building, and are just one player in the market (there's also Tomix, the other "mass-market" producer, as well as slightly more niche producers like MicroAce, GreenMax and Modemo).
Nevertheless I'm still at a loss to explain the quality difference - I've picked up one or two Japanese clunkers (mainly because I shop at the bargain basement end of the store ;) ), but on the whole even older stuff - including the 20+ year old sub-GPB10 Tomix loco I picked up from the "junk" bin - outperforms the British stuff I have. Some of it is made in China too.
I think one needs to be careful of looking back through rose coloured spectacles.
The Lima N models were truly dire both in terms of running and pretty much everything else. Compare the Lima N Fowler 0-6-0 (or "Foul up" as I used to call mine) with the new Farish. Back in the day (1977-80) they cost about £8 a pop, how that extrapolates in today's money I don't know but probably not far off the RRP of the new Farish model - comparison none.
Farish models up until the "new" chassis in about 1976 were (with the exception of the very first Pannier) a disaster - remember split gears? Con rods dropping on the track? Noisy mechanisms? They had the lot!
To have a true quality model cost a lot more. I bought my first Peco Jubilee in (I think) 1978 from the Model Shop in Harrow. I traded in several existing locos. The price was a (then) eye watering £26.80 - in today's money probably well over £200. I never regretted it. That one loco looked and ran so well it was worth more than having several cheaper models on my layout.
Minitrix locos were nearly as much and while they ran well they were pretty much all compromised appearance wise to fit continental chassis.
My point? Today's models in comparison to those days are in real terms no more expensive even now and in most cases a lot cheaper. The problem is that cheap Chinese production has throughout the "noughties" given us highly detailed products at incredibly cheap prices which has become an expectation and that is what is now changing.
My final illustration of this (and one I have used before) is to consider what was to be nearly the last Poole model (I think the King was later?) the A4. In 1998/9 the retail price for it was £89.95 - 16 years ago. Allowing for this the new "Duchess" at £149.95 RRP with all it's features to me at least suddenly looks incredible value. Even comparing discounted prices this holds true (A4 £69.95, Duchess £127 and 16 years in between!).
Roy
Quote from: Geoff on January 03, 2015, 10:30:46 AM
I really wonder what kind of profits GF are making per loco, surely it must be well over 50% so realistically if Kato can pass fare prices for there Locomotives why can not the likes of GF.
Unlikely to be 50% of trade prices never mind RRP I would think.
Factory gate prices may be pretty low per unit but still have to factor in amortisation of tooling costs over relatively short production runs. Added to that will be cost of shipping, duties, taxes etc. Then deduct UK overheads and shipping costs to retailers.
Dealer margin against full RRP ? I would think no more than 30-40% which may look a lot but against relatively low volumes they will sell really isn't if they want to cover overheads and eat!
Roy
This topic is beginning to sound like a cost accountants' convention,
someone will be applying discounted cash flow techniques to their
old locos at this rate.... :D
All
A few more prices on boxes
Green Class 25 - £51.95
Green Class 20 - £54.95
BR Midland Crab - £59.95
All bought in 1997 or 1998
These were discounted prices at shows so looking expensive considering I remember paying £34 from that Liverpool shop for new desiels when when I started back with the hobby in 2008
:-\
I remember back in the '90s when I still had a 00 gauge railway my dad built, looking at the N Gauge stuff in the cabinet at the Lichfield Train Shop and baulking at the £90+ price tag on the larger Farish stuff. Its taken 15 years to exceed the prices we used to pay, admittedly coaches and wagons blew through that point long ago, and the recent Polybulks and Covhops have set a pretty high new benchmark...comparable to Minitrix prices of the '90s :D
I clearly remember the days when the original style 08's from Farish were £28.00.
I got (and still have) a triple grey one for my birthday in 1994. A few years back I got the new style outside-frame example (again triple grey) for £45.00 from one of the box-shifters at a show.
Side by side there is absolutely no comparison between the two. The modern version is a quantum leap in looks, detail and running qualities. I know they are now getting much more expensive, but I think the improvements are there to see.
I have also done side by side comparisons of the Farish (vintage 1993) Poole 56 vs Dapol 56 (pictures on my layout thread) and again the improvement is vast. I will shortly be putting comparison pictures up of the new 37 against a Poole Era brother.
The same can be said (though I can't do as easy comparisons) of rolling stock, but there perhaps the prices are more pronounced. Going back to the £28.00 Class 08, you can't get a Polybulk for that now. Personally speaking (without actually holding one, only seeing it through glass), I think the Polybulk quality is hugely impressive, but I would maybe think twice if the asking price got much closer to £50.00 each.
Just my views, a good discussion thread this one.
Skyline2uk
Quote from: Skyline2uk on January 03, 2015, 11:14:06 PMThe same can be said (though I can't do as easy comparisons) of rolling stock, but there perhaps the prices are more pronounced.
I'm fairly new to N-gauge after a 25-year hiatus from model railways (previously 'Orribly Oversized). I was kickstarting my British collection when I was there last year - not knowing much I picked up a couple of Farish Mk1 coaches for around a tenner each, thinking I'd got a bargain, but I later realized they were the old design and very primitive (flat sides, no interior, massive gap between vehicles). The newer versions I bought for twice the price are at least twice as good look very convincing as models.
All
We have had a period of about 10 years when we were getting great models at so affordable costs - coming to an end due to production costs in China
This has really spurred the hobby on in both 00 and N - high costs of models could cause a relapse to the days of decline, remember the 70s and 80s for the hobby!
I paid £36 for my detailed outside frame Class 08 a few years back - now these are at least £50
We are still getting deals if you keep watching when stock needs to be disposed off!
MK3 coaches at £10, Class 86s at £45, GF A1 for £79 etc, etc
:)
Quote from: Rabbitaway on January 03, 2015, 11:43:17 PMWe have had a period of about 10 years when we were getting great models at so affordable costs - coming to an end due to production costs in China
I wonder if anyone's ever considered outsourcing production to... Japan? The Japanese manufacturers seem to be able to produce a lot of stuff domestically at very reasonable prices and excellent quality; though there is a lot of stuff made in China, I don't think they're so dependent on China's uncertanties.
The exact year I started in N gauge is lost in the mists of time but I've just checked some of my old stock:-
Ref 8133 2 car green 101 cost me £38.35
Ref 1905 8F 2-8-0 steamer cost me £39.95
Ref 1445 Castle class 4-6-0 cost me £33.20
so it was obviously post decimalisation and these were retail prices from a model shop in Northampton. The 8F is surely destined to be updated by someone (pretty please) but will now cost at least 3 times what I paid for the old one but no doubt someone can translate the old prices into what they would be now :dunce:
Quote from: newportnobby on January 04, 2015, 10:55:37 AM
The exact year I started in N gauge is lost in the mists of time but I've just checked some of my old stock:-
Ref 8133 2 car green 101 cost me £38.35
Ref 1905 8F 2-8-0 steamer cost me £39.95
Ref 1445 Castle class 4-6-0 cost me £33.20
so it was obviously post decimalisation and these were retail prices from a model shop in Northampton. The 8F is surely destined to be updated by someone (pretty please) but will now cost at least 3 times what I paid for the old one but no doubt someone can translate the old prices into what they would be now :dunce:
I can't help you with the prices, but this site (http://www.ngauge.org.uk/farish_mus.php?lclass=32) indicates your 101 was first produced in 1982.
A couple of years after that I remember paying somewhere between 20 and 30 hard-earned quids for various 'Orribly Oversized locos (Hornby and Lima, still got them). I also recall thinking seriously about going to N at one point but being put off by the prices, lack of variety and relatively crude detailing.
(Fast forward 25 years, me wanders into random Japanese shop, picks up a single car from my local line from the junk box for very little money, is impressed by its quality and detail, and the rest, as they say, is history).
Just for the hell of it, as I seem to have acquired a very short stretch of HO/OO track recently, I gave my Hornby 25 a brief back-and-forth spin. Now, it's been in storage for about 25 years so one has to make some allowances, but it did still run. well enough to remind me how mediocre it was. It gives off a distinct electrical/ozone smell and has a pronounced wobble, running qualities which brought back memories from a long time ago. My BachFar 25 is way better (apart from a slightly annoying gronk-gronk noise); it costs GBP 84 in 2014 vs the Hornby 25's GBP 28 (IIRC) in 1986 (again, IIRC). An inflation calculator (http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/bills/article-1633409/Historic-inflation-calculator-value-money-changed-1900.html) says that GBP 28 is the equivalent of GBP 74 today; the Bachman OO 25 seems to retail for GBP 71 or so.
So in real terms, it seems the BachFar 25 is not that much of a premium over the historical and current OO versions, in a market where N is still a bit of a minority. Compared to the historic OO version it's definitely a huge improvement from a mechanical point of view, and also has directional lighting and a DCC socket. Unfortunately I don't recall any N-gauge price details from back then apart from a vague memory of them being 50% ~ 100% more than the OO equivalent.
Raisquid
Re: '...A vague memory of them being 50% ~ 100% more than the OO equivalent'.
Summed up in the well-known phrase 'The smaller it is, the greater it costs', with 'Z' being a classic example of this dictum in application.
BTW: If the statement is correct (and casual observation indicates that it is), then that would seem to explain why 'T'-scale is so horrifically expensive. 'Nice to look at, costly to own....'
Quote from: newportnobby on January 04, 2015, 10:55:37 AM
The exact year I started in N gauge is lost in the mists of time but I've just checked some of my old stock:-
No it's not ... you just don't want to tell us how old you are Mick :P
Quote from: DesertHound on January 05, 2015, 12:50:23 PM
Quote from: newportnobby on January 04, 2015, 10:55:37 AM
The exact year I started in N gauge is lost in the mists of time but I've just checked some of my old stock:-
No it's not ... you just don't want to tell us how old you are Mick :P
That's because I can't remember how old I am..............or even who I am :confused1:
Quote from: newportnobby on January 05, 2015, 01:39:26 PM
Quote from: DesertHound on January 05, 2015, 12:50:23 PM
Quote from: newportnobby on January 04, 2015, 10:55:37 AM
The exact year I started in N gauge is lost in the mists of time but I've just checked some of my old stock:-
No it's not ... you just don't want to tell us how old you are Mick :P
That's because I can't remember how old I am..............or even who I am :confused1:
Who? ... What? ... Where? ... When? ... Why? Oh yeah, I'm on the train forum ... Ok, here we go, 1978 vs 1999!
[smg id=20140 type=preview align=center caption="image"][smg id=20141 type=preview align=center caption="image"]
Quote from: newportnobby on January 05, 2015, 01:39:26 PM
That's because I can't remember how old I am confused1:
It amuses me that when going for the annual flu jab* they always ask my age, having already sent letter inviting me !
It takes them aback when I ask " Why, is it that you are checking that I am still compos mentis ? "
Now where did I put that coffee mug , , ,
* I dont like it, and would save the NHS the cost if I did not, but I am a wimp and dare not _not_ have it, cos if I then went down bad with the flu they'd all be able to say "nenenana we told you so ! " :)
Quote from: Rabbitaway on January 02, 2015, 10:22:20 PM
Hi All
I have been sorting through all my stock boxes tonight and I notice that I was paying about £11 for a MK1 coach 18 years ago!
Locos were around £70 for a steamer
That was a lot of money nearly 20 years ago
Prices may be going up but still a lot better value than the distant past!
:hmmm:
Rail Enthusiast Magazines circa 1988 show CJM repaints from £50.00
Mark
Quote from: MalcolmAL on January 05, 2015, 03:04:51 PM
Quote from: newportnobby on January 05, 2015, 01:39:26 PM
That's because I can't remember how old I am confused1:
It amuses me that when going for the annual flu jab* they always ask my age, having already sent letter inviting me !
It takes them aback when I ask " Why, is it that you are checking that I am still compos mentis ? "
Now where did I put that coffee mug , , ,
* I dont like it, and would save the NHS the cost if I did not, but I am a wimp and dare not _not_ have it, cos if I then went down bad with the flu they'd all be able to say "nenenana we told you so ! " :)
I had to pay 3,000 yen for my own flu jab... worth it to shut SWMBO up, but to get back on topic I could have made a useful investment in rolling stock or infrastructure with that money. As it is, she bought me some buffet staff for a buffet car I don't have, so I bought a buffet car and fitted it out with staff and some sitting customers I happened to have acquired earlier, and then I realised the buffet car is fitted with a Kato coupler incompatible with the Arnold couplers attached to the existing stock, so that's another 400 yen I'm going to have to spend to fix their couplers.
Erm, not quite sure where I'm going with this, but I invited SWMBO into the SquidLair to inspect the completed buffet car (complete with lighting) and she totally failed to notice the totally other stock which wasn't there before, so I guess I'm still ahead of the game.
Quote from: railsquid on January 05, 2015, 03:25:55 PM
Erm, not quite sure where I'm going with this, but I invited SWMBO into the SquidLair to inspect the completed buffet car (complete with lighting) and she totally failed to notice the totally other stock which wasn't there before, so I guess I'm still ahead of the game.
In other words you didn't remove the blindfold 8)
Now now Mick ... Stop putting ideas into Squiddy's mind!
Back on topic, Poole a Farish is now cheaper than it was new towards the end of the Poole days by half!
Dan
Quote from: railsquid on January 05, 2015, 03:25:55 PM
I had to pay 3,000 yen for my own flu jab... worth it to shut SWMBO up,
Umm, context please, how many bags of potatoes (or rice!) is that. That is one advantage of growing old here, more things become free :)
Quoteso I bought a buffet car ...
so that's another 400 yen I'm going to have to spend to fix their couplers.
Yes I saw that, excellent work, better eyes than I gunga din !, I should have said so in that thread, I wonder if I can find it again , , ,
QuoteErm, not quite sure where I'm going with this,
Well, errr, not sure we do either, but it sounds good fun, can we come too ? ;)
Quotebut I invited SWMBO into the SquidLair to inspect the completed buffet car
Is that what you young turks call it these days ? It was 'come see my etchings' in my youth :laugh:
Quote from: MalcolmAL on January 05, 2015, 11:58:11 PMQuoteErm, not quite sure where I'm going with this,
Well, errr, not sure we do either, but it sounds good fun, can we come too ? ;)
Step this way (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=25546.msg274739#msg274739) :D
Quote from: Bob Tidbury on January 03, 2015, 09:53:54 AM
I Personaly wouldn't mind paying the higher prices if the reliability was as Good as it used to be.......
My experience and opinion of N in the past is not one of reliability especially Farish.
Poor motor design, self grinding brass gears, splitting plastic gears, poor gear trains with massive friction, poor bogie pickups, limited number of pickups and then when they did employ tender pickup you had to spend a while getting the pickup pressure just right for the tender wheels to turn and then they dropped tender pickups.
Then there was the noise, lumpy detail, scale compromises, poor low speed, no allowance for DCC and QC issues.
Example: A just-out-of-the-box HST ran about 400 mm and stopped. Wire from the armature had been fed through the gear train and chopped into little pieces. Farish replaced the powered bogie.
Was so annoyed with the quality of British locos I ran mostly US outline (Kato, Atlas, LifeLike) for 15 years to get enjoyable operation. Also British stuff was much more expensive than equivalents from other manufacturers. Now at least British stuff is at a point that US stuff was at 30 years ago.
No rose-coloured glasses here.
CFJ
PS Really didn't like the condescending looks and comments from my fellow N modellers about how crap my BR models were when I ran them; especially in that I agreed with them. But I like the look of GWR and LMS stock too much to have abandoned completely.
Yeah, I used to cop that distain from fellow enthusiasts in the 1990s, and it annoyed me, too. The unfortunate aspect is that most of it was from BRMA members - the reason I dropped out of the organisation.
Dating back 20 years I bought a Farish 25/3 (can't believe this inaccurate model is still being sold in 2015, but seemed to be okay by 1994 standards!), at the late lamented Hadley Hobbies near Liverpool Street. Price £42.75 - still have the old box. Think that was quite a big discount should have been £50+
Result - ran nicely for a while. Expired year or two later. Trip to local model shop (John Dutfield). New bogie ordered due to split gears - another 20 quid. Result - ran for a few weeks, and expired again.... I watering really, considering my poor wages on the railway :censored:
N gauge 20 years ago was pants compared with today's offerings to be honest. 80 quid or so for a pretty good 25/1 is no comparison with what I spent years ago. The 47s were appalling too, until re-done a few years back, although ran a bit better than said 25/3.
Loco's now have working lights as standard etc, and DCC ready - a huge leap forward for N kind.
Hopefully models like the Class 40 and 45 will be updated soon with lights/DCC etc.
I have got to admit N gauge was very expensive for those how dared model it 20 years ago, and its not cheap now compared with HO - I mean 4mm on HO track - but in my honest opinion represents a lot better value for money than it used to.
Cheers,
Paul