Apologies for idiot newbie questions !
Dunno which beginner section to put this in !
But as I have a specific question about 2 N models, then howzabout here >
? Mods please move if etc !
Looking at the newly arrived Farish "Seaside Excursion" train set
what is a BR MK1 BCK coach maroon
and a BR MK1 SO coach maroon ?
Waffle :-
In my youf I didnt pay much attention to the dirty red-brown things we rode in, most were compartmented, some had a corridor !
We were in East Carlisle * so some were enroute Glasgow-Crew and I even got to London at one stage! but most were on holiday excursions various points off the Carlisle - Newcastle line.
* near where the Settle-Carlisle came to and ran parallel with the Newcastle-Carlisle lines, on entering Carlisle proper.
(I did not know then how famous it would all become ;) )
Quote from: MalcolmAL on December 17, 2014, 09:51:18 PM
Looking at the newly arrived Farish "Seaside Excursion" train set
what is a BR MK1 BCK coach maroon
and a BR MK1 SO coach maroon ?
BCK is a brake end coach, SO is a second class open coach.
HTH,
Alan
Quote from: MalcolmAL on December 17, 2014, 09:51:18 PM
Apologies for idiot newbie questions !
Dunno which beginner section to put this in !
But as I have a specific question about 2 N models, then howzabout here >
? Mods please move if etc !
Looking at the newly arrived Farish "Seaside Excursion" train set
what is a BR MK1 BCK coach maroon
and a BR MK1 SO coach maroon ?
Waffle :-
In my youf I didnt pay much attention to the dirty red-brown things we rode in, most were compartmented, some had a corridor !
We were in East Carlisle * so some were enroute Glasgow-Crew and I even got to London at one stage! but most were on holiday excursions various points off the Carlisle - Newcastle line.
* near where the Settle-Carlisle came to and ran parallel with the Newcastle-Carlisle lines, on entering Carlisle proper.
(I did not know then how famous it would all become ;) )
British Rail (i.e. not Big four or pre grouping company stock) Design Mark 1 Brake Composite (1st & 2nd Class) with a corridor (K)
British Rail Design Mark 1 2nd class open (i.e. no corridor, an laid out rather similar to modern day coach interiors).
Maroon being the standard BR coach colour of the times.
Mk1 coaches were the first standardised coaches built by British Rail after nationalisation in the early 1950s. They lasted in service until the early 1990s making them the most numerous, longest lived and most widespread type of coach in Britain.
Maroon was the colour scheme that was applied from roughly 1957-1964 (although a few examples remained in this colour for many years after that date.
Yes, the abbreviations are a pain in the t*t, with the same letter standing for different things. Luckily there's a list of the 1954 and 1960 ones on
http://www.semgonline.com/coach/codes.html (http://www.semgonline.com/coach/codes.html)
Although it's a Southern website, the codes cover all regions.
Hth,
Thanks guys, very interesting,
so a train could be a mix of corridor and open ? ( I dont think I ever rode an open )
Mk1 would it seems fit my period ( end of the -dont mention- the war to about 60ish - further education, cars and girls took over and when I looked again it was all gone ! Ha!! But I cant blame DrB. ;) )
But if Maroon was 57 - 64 then perhaps the colour I am remembering under the grime was not that ? Certainly I dont remember any posh yellow lines as in the illustrations of this Farish set, so it looks like it is set a bit later than my youf! ( not that I am concerned, just curious/learning exersize and all within rule 1 ;) )
The 'K' part of the coach code, if at the end, means side corridor with compartments, 'O' for open means open saloons - seats either side of the through walkway. Both types would have gangways or corridor connections between coaches. The yellow first class stripes first appeared on the Southern Region in 191, other regions from 1962, following UIC (Union International de Chemin de Fer) recommendations.
Thanks Bernard.
Well this is all very interesting googling,,,
it seems that the 4F was a Midland loco and that my little depot within walking/bike distance was Durran Hill on or not far from the Settle-Carlisle line ?, ex midland railway, near Petrill Bridge.
Nothing much ever seemed to be happening there ( in fact I thought all those years ago it was a military depot ? !), all the action seemed to be at my other nearby shed Upperby and, further afield, Kingmoor.
Dont remember seeing carriages at Durran Hill, but that may be my brain cell at fault, in those days it was all about seeing City of Carlisle or Duchess of ?? etc !
Quote from: BernardTPM on December 17, 2014, 11:35:03 PM
The 'K' part of the coach code, if at the end, means side corridor with compartments, '
Sorry, I am being a bit thick, , and if it is not at the end ?
Quote from: Karhedron on December 17, 2014, 09:57:28 PM
Mk1 coaches were the first standardised coaches built by British Rail after nationalisation in the early 1950s.
Maroon was the colour scheme that was applied from roughly 1957-1964
Thanks, so far so good,
but between then, the standardised coaches of the early 50's that you describe,
and the Maroon of the 57-64 period
what would the colour scheme have been ?
Sorry, dont mean to nit pick, just trying to get my ducks in line-abrest !:) just by way of conversation !
Only curious and shamed that I did not pay more attention 60+ years ago,
I was taking pics back then as were my dad and grandad, mostly B&W tho !!! dunno where they are now, think of the terrabytes of archives if I/we had then had the camera(s) I now have !
Quote from: MalcolmAL on December 18, 2014, 01:00:00 AM
Quote from: Karhedron on December 17, 2014, 09:57:28 PM
Mk1 coaches were the first standardised coaches built by British Rail after nationalisation in the early 1950s.
Maroon was the colour scheme that was applied from roughly 1957-1964
Thanks, so far so good,
but between then, the standardised coaches of the early 50's that you describe,
and the Maroon of the 57-64 period
what would the colour scheme have been ?
Someone more knowledgeable than myself will hopefully correct my understanding if I'm getting things mixed up, but IIRC crimson/cream ("Blood and Custard") was the first standard BR livery, followed by a period when some of the regions returned to their roots (Western applying chocolate/cream, Southern painting stuff green) before maroon was standardized on (London-Midland colour?).
Quote from: MalcolmAL on December 18, 2014, 12:34:52 AM
Quote from: BernardTPM on December 17, 2014, 11:35:03 PM
The 'K' part of the coach code, if at the end, means side corridor with compartments, '
Sorry, I am being a bit thick, , and if it is not at the end ?
Actually I should have qualified that further: if the K is used in combination with R, it would refer to Kitchen (proper cooking facilities) as R means Restaurant, i.e. catering stock. Examples:
RKB Restaurant Kitchen Buffet - a kitchen coach with a buffet counter and standing area at one end
RK Restaurant Kitchen - a Kitchen coach, full length, used with separate dining coaches
Neither of those two are available R-T-R, though there are Kitchen coaches in the Mk.1 Pullman range - PFK (Parlour First Kitchen) and PSK (Parlour Second Kitchen) though Farish slightly confuse things by missing the P off!
Thanks Bernard, it is all making a lot more sense now in the cold light of day and with the help of the link that Keith gave me last night :) !
There are many web sites that I have booked marked to help me with n gauging, this one guides me through coach designations.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_coach_designations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_coach_designations)
Quote from: railsquid on December 18, 2014, 02:08:02 AM
Quote from: MalcolmAL on December 18, 2014, 01:00:00 AM
Quote from: Karhedron on December 17, 2014, 09:57:28 PM
Mk1 coaches were the first standardised coaches built by British Rail after nationalisation in the early 1950s.
Maroon was the colour scheme that was applied from roughly 1957-1964
Thanks, so far so good,
but between then, the standardised coaches of the early 50's that you describe,
and the Maroon of the 57-64 period
what would the colour scheme have been ?
Someone more knowledgeable than myself will hopefully correct my understanding if I'm getting things mixed up, but IIRC crimson/cream ("Blood and Custard") was the first standard BR livery, followed by a period when some of the regions returned to their roots (Western applying chocolate/cream, Southern painting stuff green) before maroon was standardized on (London-Midland colour?).
BR liveries:
1949-1956 - Crimson/Cream (aka "Blood and Custard")
1956-1965 - Maroon, but regional liveries permitted - eg BR(S) Green, BR(W) Chocolate/Cream for their major named trains. At some point BR(W) decided that Chocolate/Cream had the same issues as Crimson/Cream (keeping it clean) and reverted to Maroon (
circa 1962). BR(S) did not use Maroon at any time (any Maroon stock on BR(S) were other regions' stock).
1965 onwards - Blue/Grey
Quote from: MalcolmAL on December 18, 2014, 01:00:00 AM
but between then, the standardised coaches of the early 50's that you describe,
and the Maroon of the 57-64 period
what would the colour scheme have been ?
As pointed out above, Crimson/Cream would be the earlier coaching stock livery for 1948-56.
I would also expand on that a little, as excursion stock would quite uncommonly have been the nice shiny new coaching stock of the day right up into the '60s. This makes the choice of Mk1 coaches in the set a bit of a weird one as they didn't really start to be cascaded down until the Mk2 coaches started displacing them, by which time this version of the 4F (original Midland Railway build) was becoming extinct. Thats not to say it didn't happen, but it would have been the exception rather than the norm. More often than not excursion stock and football specials were made up of whatever was spare and serviceable in the coach sidings, usually ending up being the stuff that they didn't want to put out in the normal service trains. With the loco carrying late crest, I'd have thought that a factory weathered Crimson/Cream pair of Staniers (an open second and a brake second) would be more appropriate to cover up into the early '60s as these were increasingly being retired from frontline service at the time. Better yet, one Maroon and one Crimson/Cream. From the research I've been doing into formations for my clubs exhibition layout I've noted that a heck of a lot of non corridor (suburban, non gangway) stock found their way into excursion trains too.
Might be worth mentioning that (particularly in the 60s) trains often ran with a mixture of carriage liveries so it wasn't unusual to see (on Midland lines) a real mix of blood/custard and maroon carriages in the same train. Same on Western Region where trains could have been maroon, blood & custard and chocolate & cream (all mixed up). Maybe even throw in an SR green example or two !
And yes corridor and open carriages could appear in the same trains.
Quote from: port perran on December 19, 2014, 08:55:05 PM
Same on Western Region where trains could have been maroon, blood & custard and chocolate & cream (all mixed up).
I've even seen a photo of a Western Region train with all three coach liveries present, albeit only one Crimson/Cream coach. If I'd seen that on someone's layout I would have assumed it was "Rule 1" in action.