I've had an offer to produce a Deeley tender as a 3D print by a cottage industry company that shall remain nameless for the moment (unless they want to name themselves, of course). I've been after a Deeley-pattern tender for some time to add to a couple of my Midland 4Fs. The only problem is that I don't have any drawings with all the measurements for a Deeley tender to supply to them.
Does anyone out there have a book that contains drawings for the Deeley tender, and would you be able to supply a scan or photograph so that I can pass it on, please? The reward could be the availability of a Deeley tender in regular production.
Didnt you get any where with Worsleys?
Russ
I think Worsleys went into hiding after that encounter! I certainly haven't heard anything since. But even if they do produce something, that'll be one tender from each supplier, and I need two, so it's still good.
Hi Pete,
I presume you have already found this site
http://www.midlandrailwaystudycentre.org.uk/catalogue.php (http://www.midlandrailwaystudycentre.org.uk/catalogue.php)
Alyson
Thanks Alyson. I hadn't come across that site before. It's a shame I don't live near Derby or I'd pop in.
They sound quite helpful on the website Pete, it might be worth a phone call to see if they will post you a photocopy with the dimensions you need, or maybe the search facility at the NRM if anyone is planning an Xmas outing
There doesn't seem to be anything else available online, and no one has come forward with printed drawings, so making contact with them is probably the only option anyway. I'll start with an email.
Other possibles HMRS
http://www.hmrs.org.uk/ (http://www.hmrs.org.uk/)
Or Skinley drawings - if they are still in business (if you Google you should find a phone number)
E-mail. skinleydrawings@rowe-avenue.freeserve.co.uk
Thanks Mike. The HMRS don't seem to have anything Deeley-based in their archive, although they do have a lot of drawings in there. Could be a great resource for many other projects.
Skinley doesn't seem to have a very good reputation, based on a quick search:
http://www.lner.info/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8550 (http://www.lner.info/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8550)
Re: Skinley drawings
Post » Wed Mar 27, 2013 11:46 pm
They tend to contain some howlers so would not value them, highly!
Re: Skinley drawings
Post » Sat Mar 30, 2013 2:57 pm
Skinley drawings are OK for the basic dimensions, but may not be reliable when it comes to rendering curvatures
or shapes. Do note that the front and rear views of the 4mm drawings are set to 16.5mm gauge. EM/P4 users
may find clearances distorted as a result.
Re: Skinley drawings
Post » Sat Mar 30, 2013 3:28 pm
Couldn't agree more... be very careful if you are considering basing something on a Skinley.
Cross refer against the RCTS green books or the info on the loco pages on this site.
Some good photo's will always be useful as well.
And if you get stuck as I found myself recently the amount of knowledge and assistance that is offered by
members of this site should correct any shortcomings.
Thanks again guys
I'm really surprised that there aren't any books lying around with Deeley tender drawings in them. There are certainly enough of Fowler tenders, and coaches and wagons.
I've not had any problems with them for SR locos that I have either scratch built or kit bashed, all I wanted was basic dimensions which is what most of them provide, I do cross check with the Bradley LSWR locos books where relevant.
http://www.steamindex.com/media/spinner.jpg (http://www.steamindex.com/media/spinner.jpg)
Is this one?
I'm going to the NRM on 10th January so happy to have a look in the search zone if that's useful. PM me with what information you want.
Alyson
Quote from: alypar11 on December 11, 2014, 09:05:46 PM
http://www.steamindex.com/media/spinner.jpg (http://www.steamindex.com/media/spinner.jpg)
Is this one?
It took a bit of research as I'm not too familiar with nineteenth century Midland locos, but that class was built by Johnson rather than Deeley.
Quote from: alypar11 on December 11, 2014, 09:05:46 PM
I'm going to the NRM on 10th January so happy to have a look in the search zone if that's useful. PM me with what information you want.
Alyson
That might be the best way of all of finding some detailed information, thanks Alyson. Deeley locos all dated between 1904-1909, so it wasn't a big window of opportunity.
His tenders seem to have stuck around through, especially on the Somerset & Dorset. These are all shots of Deeley tenders in model form, but it's much harder to find a real life one as they were replaced by Fowler tenders (even on the S&D once the LMS took over the loco stock). Actually, Johnson tenders look very much the same, so Deeley may just have tweaked them (I don't have any books that cover this so I have no real idea):
(http://www.mremag.com/sites/10/images/article_images_month/2013-09/bachy%204f.jpg) (http://www.mremag.com/sites/10/images/article_images_month/2013-09/bachy%204f.jpg)
(http://www.vectis.co.uk/AuctionImages/70/487_l.jpg) (http://www.vectis.co.uk/AuctionImages/70/487_l.jpg)
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/60/Walton_with_Leicester_-_Peterborough_East_train_geograph-2791492-by-Ben-Brooksbank.jpg) (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/60/Walton_with_Leicester_-_Peterborough_East_train_geograph-2791492-by-Ben-Brooksbank.jpg)
(https://hattonsimages.blob.core.windows.net/products/31-880_1046985_Qty1_2.jpg) (https://hattonsimages.blob.core.windows.net/products/31-880_1046985_Qty1_2.jpg)
Quote from: Dorsetmike on December 11, 2014, 05:21:48 PM
I've not had any problems with them for SR locos that I have either scratch built or kit bashed, all I wanted was basic dimensions which is what most of them provide, I do cross check with the Bradley LSWR locos books where relevant.
Those Bradley books seem to go for a small fortune these days! It's no wonder I haven't come across any that I could grab. I'll mention Skinley to the producers though, just in case.
QuoteThose Bradley books seem to go for a small fortune these days!
Always worth keeping an eye on ABE books
http://www.abebooks.co.uk/servlet/SearchResults?an=d+l+bradley&sts=t&tn=locomotives+of+the+LSWR (http://www.abebooks.co.uk/servlet/SearchResults?an=d+l+bradley&sts=t&tn=locomotives+of+the+LSWR)
Also do a search on Google for railway book sellers and then browse their lists, I used to do that weekly when I was building my collection.
I picked up a book on the Greyhounds by O S Nock at one of the stations on the West Somerset Railway for two pounds this year. That was a bit of a lucky find as the train was arriving at the time and I almost had to abandon either the book or the train. Luckily the WSR doesn't seal the train doors before the train moves off!
Hi Pete, I've got my eye in a bit now after a lot of internet searching. This is a nice photo of a deely loco and presume original tender. http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/mrsalt115.htm. (http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/mrsalt115.htm.) That website is well worth a browse. I've also trawled through the online NRM technical drawing archive http://www.nrm.org.uk/ResearchAndArchive/archiveandlibrarycollections/RailwayCoWorks.aspx (http://www.nrm.org.uk/ResearchAndArchive/archiveandlibrarycollections/RailwayCoWorks.aspx) and the photos of Derby works http://www.nrm.org.uk/ourcollection/photogallery?group=Derby&keywords=photos%2c+derby. (http://www.nrm.org.uk/ourcollection/photogallery?group=Derby&keywords=photos%2c+derby.) I've got a list of microfilm drawings to have a look at when I'm there. A digital copy is about £7 and a print about another fiver. I can contact you nearer the time to check exactly what you need. Here is a print they have already made of a tender so that you can see the detail availiable in an engineering diagram http://www.nrm.org.uk/ResearchAndArchive/drawing?group=Derby&objid=D27-10935. (http://www.nrm.org.uk/ResearchAndArchive/drawing?group=Derby&objid=D27-10935.)
Hope that is of interest (and an introduction to some of the online archive availiable to those with other queries).
Quote from: alypar11 on December 14, 2014, 01:07:45 PM
Hi Pete, I've got my eye in a bit now after a lot of internet searching. This is a nice photo of a deely loco and presume original tender. http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/mrsalt115.htm (http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/mrsalt115.htm). That website is well worth a browse.
Hi Alyson. I'm afraid that one's a replacement Fowler tender. The Fowlers are flat (or mostly so, while the Deeleys have that top edge that arcs outwards with the small coal rails on top of it. More like this one:
(http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/mr/saltley/shed/mrsalt111.jpg) (http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/mrsalt111.htm)
and probably this one too:
(http://www.nrm.org.uk/img/nrm/worksphotos/Derby/1997-7397_DY_11600.jpg) (http://www.nrm.org.uk/ourcollection/photo?group=Derby&objid=1997-7397_DY_11600)
Quote from: alypar11 on December 14, 2014, 01:07:45 PM
I've also trawled through the online NRM technical drawing archive http://www.nrm.org.uk/ResearchAndArchive/archiveandlibrarycollections/RailwayCoWorks.aspx (http://www.nrm.org.uk/ResearchAndArchive/archiveandlibrarycollections/RailwayCoWorks.aspx) and the photos of Derby works http://www.nrm.org.uk/ourcollection/photogallery?group=Derby&keywords=photos%2c+derby. (http://www.nrm.org.uk/ourcollection/photogallery?group=Derby&keywords=photos%2c+derby.) I've got a list of microfilm drawings to have a look at when I'm there. A digital copy is about £7 and a print about another fiver. I can contact you nearer the time to check exactly what you need.
That's very kind of you. The trouble is that I can't tell a Deeley tender from a Johnson tender (and possibly other, pre-Fowler tenders), so I can't really point to a specific photo and say 'that's Deeley'. At this stage I'm still familiarising myself with details like that, but it takes time. What I was hoping for was a railway book with a clearly marked Deeley tender, but no one seems to have anything like that or they would have mentioned it. I'm pretty sure that I won't be able to tell you which drawing at the NRM is right and which isn't.
Quote from: alypar11 on December 14, 2014, 01:07:45 PM
Here is a print they have already made of a tender so that you can see the detail available in an engineering diagram http://www.nrm.org.uk/ResearchAndArchive/drawing?group=Derby&objid=D27-10935. (http://www.nrm.org.uk/ResearchAndArchive/drawing?group=Derby&objid=D27-10935.)
Hope that is of interest (and an introduction to some of the online archive available to those with other queries).
That's certainly more detail than an N Gauge kit producer could ever need! :D
Ha! Yes Pete, I think an engineering drawing is more use to the 1:1 modellers.... I suspected that the lower tenders were probably the older type. I shall try to see if NRM have copies of books that might confirm the deeley tender type, or the original works photo's of the loco's in Grey from about the right period. Maybe that way we can confirm which of the microfilm drawings is correct. I can always just make a sketch of the relevant measurements and use the photos to confirm the profiles ready for 3D print CAD. Am enjoying this as Research/Investigation are my forte (and how I've earned my living).
have a good Christmas and will let you know what the new year outing to NRM brings.
Alyson
The Deeley/Johnson type precede the Fowlers and Staniers, yep. They lasted longer on smaller railways such as the S&D, which is why I need them. Fowler pretty much made them redundant on the Midland with his replacement version. Have a great Christmas and I look forward to seeing where this takes us next year.
This model has a good approximation of the characteristics of a Deeley tenderhttps://eastsidepilot.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/compound-4p-weatherd-002.jpg
some interesting reading
http://www.steamindex.com/locotype/midland.htm (http://www.steamindex.com/locotype/midland.htm)
http://www.sdjr.net/sd_locomotives.html (http://www.sdjr.net/sd_locomotives.html)