So we've had :
- a complete diesel-hauled train from Farish (Blue Pullman)
- a complete electric-hauled train from Hornby/Arnold (Brighton Belle).
It must now be time for a complete steam-hauled train to be launched.
I suggest the 'Coronation Scot', hauled by a streamlined Coronation Scot in blue livery with matching coaches.
I'd shell out £250 for that !
Best regards,
Joe
How about an 8 coach Pullman with a nice southern Pacific.
How about a pendolino for us modern image modellers out there!
Go and have a pledge if you can help us.
Alistair
Does a 14 xx and autocoach not count? :smiley-laughing:
C. :)
Quote from: ChrisWV10 on December 07, 2014, 06:57:34 PM
Does a 14 xx and autocoach not count? :smiley-laughing:
C. :)
Chris
It certainly does count and we can already get that from Dapol.
Quote from: joe cassidy on December 07, 2014, 06:39:32 PM
So we've had :
- a complete diesel-hauled train from Farish (Blue Pullman)
- a complete electric-hauled train from Hornby/Arnold (Brighton Belle).
It must now be time for a complete steam-hauled train to be launched.
I suggest the 'Coronation Scot', hauled by a streamlined Coronation Scot in blue livery with matching coaches.
I'd shell out £250 for that !
Best regards,
Joe
Hi Joe
The idea of "book sets" or "Train packs" is already with us. Farish are due to release a "Cumbrian Mountain Express" at a very competitive price plus a few others, and Dapol released the B17 with "Blood & Custard" Gresleys (I have one) a few years back (just one Dapol example).
I very much doubt there is a large enough Market for a streamlined Coronation and rake of matching coaches, the timescale during which it operated is too restrictive, and I very much doubt enough "Rule 1" buyers to cover the shortfall. Even were there demand, judging by the price of the most recently announced "Birdcage" coaches I suspect the total price of such a set would be way north of £250.
Regards
Roy
OK - hats off to Dapol for being ahead of the game with the 14xx and autotrailer.
I still think there's an opportunity for a more ambitious complete steam train.
The Coronation Scot must have the biggest chance of success because :
1) the streamlined Stanier pacific is more aesthetically pleasing than the Gresley A4 and the "Spam Can"
2) the coaches and the loco are in the same livery (like the Blue Pullman/Brighton Belle)
Best regards,
Joe
Don't forget the GF DMUs.
This is getting like what did the Romans ever do for us.............
Quote from: joe cassidy on December 07, 2014, 07:16:44 PM
OK - hats off to Dapol for being ahead of the game with the 14xx and autotrailer.
I still think there's an opportunity for a more ambitious complete steam train.
The Coronation Scot must have the biggest chance of success because :
1) the streamlined Stanier pacific is more aesthetically pleasing than the Gresley A4 and the "Spam Can"
2) the coaches and the loco are in the same livery (like the Blue Pullman/Brighton Belle)
Best regards,
Joe
I wouldn't agree that the Stanier streamlined pacific is more aesthetically pleasing than an A4 but I do agree that the Coronation Scot would be the best bet for a complete 1930's express train. The new LMS pacific chassis may lend itself to a new streamlined body (then again it may not) and the Farish period three Stanier coaches could lend themselves to a representation of the train in Blue with go faster stripes.
Alas, the same couldn't be said of Dapol's Gresleys and the Flying Scotsman rake - nothing to do with Dapol's design but the FS set was very specialised with some rather unique vehicles in it... Same goes for the Silver Jubilee, (LNER) Coronation and West Riding sets (several completely new toolings with limited appeal would be required)...
Quote from: Roy L S on December 07, 2014, 07:16:11 PM
I very much doubt there is a large enough Market for a streamlined Coronation and rake of matching coaches, the timescale during which it operated is too restrictive, and I very much doubt enough "Rule 1" buyers to cover the shortfall.
They said that about the Blue Pullman !
Best regards,
Joe
Quote from: joe cassidy on December 07, 2014, 07:24:36 PMThey said that about the Blue Pullman !
The Blue Pullman managed 13 years in service though. The Coronation Scot was active between 1937 and 1939, the (LNER) Coronation was about the same with the Silver Jubilee set being in service between 1935(ish) and 1939. The war stopped all of these expresses and in the LNER's case these formations were never reused (although stock was cascaded down into regular service formations). The same thing happened with the LNER's tourist stock so I would assume (although don't quote me on this) that the set thing happened with the LMS set... A two to three year service period may well be too short a time scale for N gauge manufactures, although this does seem to be changing in OO so you never know...
Quote from: joe cassidy on December 07, 2014, 07:16:44 PM
OK - hats off to Dapol for being ahead of the game with the 14xx and autotrailer.
I still think there's an opportunity for a more ambitious complete steam train.
The Coronation Scot must have the biggest chance of success because :
1) the streamlined Stanier pacific is more aesthetically pleasing than the Gresley A4 and the "Spam Can"
2) the coaches and the loco are in the same livery (like the Blue Pullman/Brighton Belle)
Best regards,
Joe
Hi Joe
A personal thing but I think the Bugatti inspired A4 styling is far more attractive than the "Coronation" and I don't think even Stanier was too keen on the idea of streamlining those magnificent locos. I think they looked a bit like an inverted bathtub when streamlined whereas in their de-streamlined form the Coronations looked (and still do) truly awesome.
Regards
Roy
Quote from: joe cassidy on December 07, 2014, 06:39:32 PM
I suggest the 'Coronation Scot', hauled by a streamlined Coronation Scot in blue livery with matching coaches.
I'd shell out £250 for that !
I think you are being wildly optimistic... If anyone can produce a full Coronation Scot set for that price it will be a miracle.
You are talking about a loco which on its own would be at least half of your £250, plus either 9 coaches of 6 different types out of which 4 are unique to the train (the 1937 trains) or 11 coaches including 5 articulated pairs all of which are unique to the train (the 1939 set). I think you would be very lucky to get the full train for less than £450...
For a steam era complete train, how about an N2 and quad set? In service from 1921 to 1966, the quads even ended up behind locos such as 'male chicken' (changed by forum) 'o the North and Baby Deltics!
Even without Rule 1, I suspect a truly iconic train would fit in most layouts that are reasonably within the time frame of the prototype. It's not like you're worrying that you can run the train for 2 scale years before it has to go out of service :)
I'd love to see train packs like the Coronation or Jubilee streamliners. As with the Brighton Belle, even though they don't necessarily fit my current layout, it's the trains I'm interested in, not how accurate they fit my particular scene. I'd like to think there's a lot of model railway enthusiasts who think the same. Now, a City of Truro and suitable stock and I could even be mostly accurate within my scene too :)
Potentially, there's a really good selection of iconic British trains. Start with the Rocket + carriages and work upwards..
Quote from: Atso on December 07, 2014, 07:44:30 PM
For a steam era complete train, how about an N2 and quad set? In service from 1921 to 1966, the quads even ended up behind locos such as 'male chicken' (changed by forum) 'o the North and Baby Deltics!
Great choice Steve, and what is more a surviving N2 plus a"Quad Art" on the NNR too.
N2 in a choice of LNER Green fully lined, LNER black and BR Lined Black early/late Crests, in fact odd the N2 has missed the attention of the RTR manufacturer in N. The coaches too - varnished teak and BR crimson liveries (did any make it into blue?)
And didn't the Quad-Arts even get behind the odd 24 and 31 too?
Roy
i would say if you were going to do a bookset, or complete steam set, this is what you would need to look at...
1-What has been released already?
Released already as booksets or train sets in the steam category was Flying Scotsman in BR green with 3 coaches, B17 in BR green with 3 crimson/cream gresleys, B17 in LNER with 3 teaks.
2-What is planned?
As seen above dapol have released 3 what could be classed as complete sets already (complete in the fact you got a loco and coaches), farish are now coming into it with their own packs. in 2015 we have the Cumbrian Mountain Express (duchess of hamilton with 3 blue/grey mk1s), The Longmoor Military Railway (Blue WD with 3 coaches), Landship train (4F with 3 wagons), Seaside Excursion (4F and 2 mk1s).
3-What has not been done?
as can be seen, Dapol have focused on LNER, there are western sets which were released with kato track also, but as limited edition with Osbornes models, and Farish have focused on the LMS with the 4F, coronation and WD (not strictly LMS but still). So what hasnt been targeted yet?
As i said earlier GWR hasnt essentially been released apart from limited edition with Osbornes, so theres the option of a western themed set, but their is also the southern that hasnt been touched at all!
With new spam cans/ schools/ bullieds etc all due for release in the next year, the option is there for farish to release a Golden arrow set, using a spam can and mk1 pullmans. Dapol to release the schools with their new maunsell coaches.
i would personally say, if your going to do a new steam set, release a western set and a southern set, then you have something from each of the big 4 companies!
just my opinion of course
Quote from: Roy L S on December 07, 2014, 07:54:29 PMAnd didn't the Quad-Arts even get behind the odd 24 and 31 too?
I think it may be a case of what didn't the quads end up behind. Also many people seem surprised about how far out of London they managed to get during the holiday seasons - just about any type of coach could find itself put into a excursion set (I think I've seen a picture of a quad set in Skeggy behind a J39!).
Hi all. What about a trans pennine dmu. In blue/gray. ???
It has to be an Electrostar! :D
Quote from: PLD on December 07, 2014, 07:43:17 PM
I think you are being wildly optimistic... If anyone can produce a full Coronation Scot set for that price it will be a miracle.
You are talking about a loco which on its own would be at least half of your £250, plus either 9 coaches of 6 different types out of which 4 are unique to the train (the 1937 trains) or 11 coaches including 5 articulated pairs all of which are unique to the train (the 1939 set). I think you would be very lucky to get the full train for less than £450...
I think I am being "reasonably optimistic". I agree the loco would cost about £120. I would envisage only 5 coaches, from the existing Stanier range, i.e. no catering vehicles.
I believe that Hornby have already done a Coronation Scot train pack in OO.
Remember :
- they* said it was impossible to produce a class 09 shunter with inside frames
- they* said the N Gauge Society would never do coach kits
Best regards,
Joe
* N Gauge Yahoo group
If 'limited appeal' is allowed, how about a full Underground train?
Not that I want this or any of the above :P
Quote from: joe cassidy on December 07, 2014, 08:22:29 PM
Quote from: PLD on December 07, 2014, 07:43:17 PM
I think you are being wildly optimistic... If anyone can produce a full Coronation Scot set for that price it will be a miracle.
You are talking about a loco which on its own would be at least half of your £250, plus either 9 coaches of 6 different types out of which 4 are unique to the train (the 1937 trains) or 11 coaches including 5 articulated pairs all of which are unique to the train (the 1939 set). I think you would be very lucky to get the full train for less than £450...
I think I am being "reasonably optimistic". I agree the loco would cost about £120. I would envisage only 5 coaches, from the existing Stanier range, i.e. no catering vehicles.
So you are in fact arguing for an INCOMPLETE IMPRESSION of a train. i.e. not the full formation and using whatever coaches are available not necessarily the correct types...
What you are proposing is the equivalent of Farish producing only the power cars for the Blue Pulman, sticking 2 mk1 coaches from their existing range in the box and still calling it a complete BP set...
A Farish Maunsell N 2-6-0 and three coach Birdcage set could be offered, in SECR, Southern Railway or BR guises.
Other possibilities could consist of an accurately numbered Southern Region Maunsell, Bulleid or Mk1 set with a matching loco.
Slightly of topic but we did mention existing book sets Dapol did the Voyager and the Wrexham & Shropshire set true this had a two coach add on pack and Farish also done the voyager .
I too think that the quad arts would be a nice set I remember my good friend
Charlie Griffith scratch built one years ago I was promised the set but don't know what happened to it when he passed away.
Bob
Quote from: PLD on December 07, 2014, 08:50:22 PM
So you are in fact arguing for an INCOMPLETE IMPRESSION of a train. i.e. not the full formation and using whatever coaches are available not necessarily the correct types...
What you are proposing is the equivalent of Farish producing only the power cars for the Blue Pulman, sticking 2 mk1 coaches from their existing range in the box and still calling it a complete BP set...
Yes, I am proposing an incomplete impression of a train. I think many people would be happy with this. Currently the only "big 4" catering vehicle available RTR is the Gresley buffet car so I assume that there plenty pf people out there running "incomplete" express trains of Farish LMS Stanier or GWR Collet coaches without catering vehicles.
Best regards,
Joe
Quote from: joe cassidy on December 07, 2014, 08:22:29 PM
Quote from: PLD on December 07, 2014, 07:43:17 PM
I think you are being wildly optimistic... If anyone can produce a full Coronation Scot set for that price it will be a miracle.
You are talking about a loco which on its own would be at least half of your £250, plus either 9 coaches of 6 different types out of which 4 are unique to the train (the 1937 trains) or 11 coaches including 5 articulated pairs all of which are unique to the train (the 1939 set). I think you would be very lucky to get the full train for less than £450...
I think I am being "reasonably optimistic". I agree the loco would cost about £120. I would envisage only 5 coaches, from the existing Stanier range, i.e. no catering vehicles.
I believe that Hornby have already done a Coronation Scot train pack in OO.
Remember :
- they* said it was impossible to produce a class 09 shunter with inside frames
- they* said the N Gauge Society would never do coach kits
Best regards,
Joe
* N Gauge Yahoo group
Hi Joe
The unstreamlined Duchess will retail at just shy of £150 with max discount it will be about £127.
I think the Coronation coaches were unique to the train so Staniers from the current range will not work.
It was an 08 Shunter and it now has
outside frames.
NGS have not done coach kits yet, the Gresley BG is closest but that is a Non Passenger vehicle.
Regards
Roy
Thanks Roy.
Sorry for my imprecisions about the shunter and the Gresley full brake but my point is that what was once deemed a no-goer can become reality.
I understand that some of coaches in the 1937 Coronation Scot formation were more or less standard and others were special. I think one of the differences was the roofs, which had continuous external ducting for ventilation.
I make no apology for suggesting that an approximation of the Coronation Scot would be acceptable to me.
Let's face it, only those with huge layouts are able to run express trains with a prototypical formation of 10 or more coaches including catering vehicles. Most of us have to compromise and make do with 5 or 6.
Best regards,
Joe
Why does it have to be a passenger train? Unit freight trains would only need the loco and a single wagon tooling, much cheaper to produce and the wagons alone often come high on wish list polls. ;)
What about something like the Consett ore trains with a Westinghouse equipped O1 or 9F or the ICI hoppers and a retooled 8F?
Re the Coronation Staniers, 4 of the current range would only need a new tooling for the roof to represent the pressure ventilation duct and a couple of those would maybe want a new interior to provide the 2+1 seating for the open thirds and 2 a side in the firsts. The real things were converted from the same coach diagrams that Farish already produce. A set could quite happily consist of a Brake First, Corridor First, Open Third, Brake Corridor Third. And if you wanted to push the boat out the 50ft chassis of the inspection saloon/BG can be used as a platform for the kitchen car which would need just the body and roof tooling.
It will be interesting to see Hornby's strategy going forward. The Brighton Belle was of limited use for most people but it is an iconic train. A lot of people have bought one and will run it anyway and it is very collectable for those who are into that.
Following the same idea, something like a City of Truro with a handful of coaches would probably be a candidate. Probably useless for most people's layouts but very iconic and collectable. I can't really think of anything on the diesel side apart from something like a rake of freightliners with a blue or two tone green with full yellow ends 47. However, they'd be daft as a brush (meh) to duplicate something already out there.
Quote from: SD35 on December 07, 2014, 10:09:17 PM
Following the same idea, something like a City of Truro with a handful of coaches would probably be a candidate.
Now you're talking! :thumbsup:
It baffles me that Bachmann still have not shrunk CoT to N gauge, especially as they have a corless motor mechanism small enough to power the Ivatt 2MT, the City should not pose any problems.
Some Toplight coaches to go with it would be perfect. If that is being too optimistic then maybe a set of coaches to suit its operation when it returned to service in the 1950s? It often ran railtours with just 6 or 7 coaches. Failing that, it used to handle 3-4 coach trains in regular service on the Didcot, Newbury and Southampton line.
Quote from: Atso on December 07, 2014, 07:36:07 PM
Quote from: joe cassidy on December 07, 2014, 07:24:36 PMThey said that about the Blue Pullman !
The Blue Pullman managed 13 years in service though. The Coronation Scot was active between 1937 and 1939, the (LNER) Coronation was about the same with the Silver Jubilee set being in service between 1935(ish) and 1939. The war stopped all of these expresses and in the LNER's case these formations were never reused (although stock was cascaded down into regular service formations). The same thing happened with the LNER's tourist stock so I would assume (although don't quote me on this) that the set thing happened with the LMS set... A two to three year service period may well be too short a time scale for N gauge manufactures, although this does seem to be changing in OO so you never know...
Yet that is exactly what Hornby/Arnold have done with the Umber/Cream 'Brighton Belle', unit number 2051; only ran in this form between 29th June 1934 and January 1937, just 2.5 years, and the Blue/Grey version, unit 3053; only ran in this form between May 1969 and 30th April 1972, just under 3 years...
An iconic steam era complete train in a box? Easy:
L&MR 0-4-0 Lion, well wagon with coach body load and a toad brake van.
Or perhaps a Terrier, well wagon loaded with a bull nose Morris Oxford and a brake van?
Happy modelling.
Steven B.
I would like BR (M) push pull coaches to go with the Ivatt 2-6-2T push pull loco produced by Dapol.
A loco and 2 coaches would make a neat reasonably priced set.
Chris
I would definitely opt for a Night Ferry set ! :laugh3: :heart2:
For steam lovers, an SR 4-4-0 class L1 ; for electric fans, a class 71.
Then a bunch of CIWL type F sleeping cars.
And an SR guard's van + an SNCF fourgon type Nord.
It would be wonderful, marvellous...
Quote from: Kesdrive on December 08, 2014, 10:05:22 PM
I would like BR (M) push pull coaches to go with the Ivatt 2-6-2T push pull loco produced by Dapol.
A loco and 2 coaches would make a neat reasonably priced set.
Chris
I agree we need some LMS/BR style push pull coaches to go with the Dapol produced Ivatt 2-6-2T push pull loco.
Quote from: Dylan Cole on December 15, 2014, 07:41:11 PM
Quote from: Kesdrive on December 08, 2014, 10:05:22 PM
I would like BR (M) push pull coaches to go with the Ivatt 2-6-2T push pull loco produced by Dapol.
A loco and 2 coaches would make a neat reasonably priced set.
Chris
I agree we need some LMS/BR style push pull coaches to go with the Dapol produced Ivatt 2-6-2T push pull loco.
Agreed, these would be a very good choice as a boxed set and there would potentially be other locos the coaches could be used with too.
Roy
Going back to the original post, I'm sorry but an Ivatt tank with 2 coaches has zero "Wow" factor and is not going to get the Rule 1 punters opening their wallets like they did for the Blue Pullman and the Brighton Belle.
I still contend that a streamlined LMS Coronation with matching coaches would have similar "sex appeal".
I have just been re-reading the article about the annual model making competition in the 4th issue of the 2010 N Gauge Journal. Mr. Graham Lowe won awards for no less than 4 streamlined Coronations. This must be the most popular loco kit Langley ever did.
Take a look at the photo of Alistair Knox's kit-built Coronation Scot train on page 453 of the June 2014 issue of 'Railway Modeller'.
This train is a must for any self-respecting LMS mainline roundy-roundy layout.
Best regards,
Joe
Quote
Let's face it, only those with huge layouts are able to run express trains with a prototypical formation of 10 or more coaches including catering vehicles. Most of us have to compromise and make do with 5 or 6.
In some cases it doesn't need to be a compromise, choose a scenario where an express from London splits to more than one destination and model somewhere on the route after the split, I'm only familiar with the Southern, but for example a 12 coach train from Waterloo would split at Bournemouth Central, typically 6 coaches including the catering vehicle would proceed to Bournemouth West, the remaining 6 coaches might split again at Wareham, 2 for Swanage and 4 for Weymouth or with no Wareham split all 6 to Weymouth, the Atlantic coast express would split into even more portions.
You don't have to pick a prototypical location, just employ the split scenario under rule 1, you can make it fit the size of your layout.
Quote from: Dorsetmike on December 15, 2014, 09:10:24 PM
Quote
Let's face it, only those with huge layouts are able to run express trains with a prototypical formation of 10 or more coaches including catering vehicles. Most of us have to compromise and make do with 5 or 6.
In some cases it doesn't need to be a compromise, choose a scenario where an express from London splits to more than one destination and model somewhere on the route after the split, I'm only familiar with the Southern, but for example a 12 coach train from Waterloo would split at Bournemouth Central, typically 6 coaches including the catering vehicle would proceed to Bournemouth West, the remaining 6 coaches might split again at Wareham, 2 for Swanage and 4 for Weymouth or with no Wareham split all 6 to Weymouth, the Atlantic coast express would split into even more portions.
You don't have to pick a prototypical location, just employ the split scenario under rule 1, you can make it fit the size of your layout.
Another example is be the Pullman out of King's Cross to Harrogate & Bradford. The train split at Leeds, and 4 or 5 coaches went to each of the two final destinations.(50s and 60s)
Quote from: joe cassidy on December 15, 2014, 09:07:59 PM
I still contend that a streamlined LMS Coronation with matching coaches would have similar "sex appeal".
That's only because the loco looks more like something you'd find in an Ann Summers shop that needs batteries :D
Paul
Quote from: Sprintex on December 16, 2014, 05:10:24 AM
That's only because the loco looks more like something you'd find in an Ann Summers shop that needs batteries :D
I would have thought the valve gears and couplings would be prone to catching on things. :ouch:
:P
:goggleeyes:
Quote from: Dorsetmike on December 15, 2014, 09:10:24 PM
Quote
Let's face it, only those with huge layouts are able to run express trains with a prototypical formation of 10 or more coaches including catering vehicles. Most of us have to compromise and make do with 5 or 6.
In some cases it doesn't need to be a compromise, choose a scenario where an express from London splits to more than one destination and model somewhere on the route after the split, I'm only familiar with the Southern, but for example a 12 coach train from Waterloo would split at Bournemouth Central, typically 6 coaches including the catering vehicle would proceed to Bournemouth West, the remaining 6 coaches might split again at Wareham, 2 for Swanage and 4 for Weymouth or with no Wareham split all 6 to Weymouth, the Atlantic coast express would split into even more portions.
You don't have to pick a prototypical location, just employ the split scenario under rule 1, you can make it fit the size of your layout.
That's a very good point Mike. There was a good article about this practice in the December 2013 issue of 'Railway Modeller', pp. 965 - 967.
Best regards,
Joe
Seeing as there is a push from many people (lets hope enough!) for Electric traction such as the Pendolino, I wonder if there would be an uptake of a book set of a proper current generation tooling Class 91, MK IVs and DVT?
Could either do a full set or book sets like the Dapol HST (with ALL coaches available separately at time of launch!) with smaller trains to start with?
Just thinking out loud, no idea at all if market is there.
Skyline2uk
Just for fun I've estimated what it would cost me to buy the materials to make my own Coronation Scot train :
1 x Farish Duchess chassis - free (I've got 3 in stock)
1 x Langley body kit - £35.30
6 x Farish 57' Stanier coaches - £123.15
1 x Etched Pixels 50' Stanier kitchen car kit - £17.50
transfers from Fox - £27.70
TOTAL - £203.65
The above does not include paint, glue, bits and pieces.
In my opinion an RTR Coronation Scot at £250 would be a bargain.
Best regards,
Joe
Quote from: joe cassidy on December 15, 2014, 09:07:59 PM
Going back to the original post, I'm sorry but an Ivatt tank with 2 coaches has zero "Wow" factor and is not going to get the Rule 1 punters opening their wallets like they did for the Blue Pullman and the Brighton Belle.
I still contend that a streamlined LMS Coronation with matching coaches would have similar "sex appeal".
I have just been re-reading the article about the annual model making competition in the 4th issue of the 2010 N Gauge Journal. Mr. Graham Lowe won awards for no less than 4 streamlined Coronations. This must be the most popular loco kit Langley ever did.
Take a look at the photo of Alistair Knox's kit-built Coronation Scot train on page 453 of the June 2014 issue of 'Railway Modeller'.
This train is a must for any self-respecting LMS mainline roundy-roundy layout.
Best regards,
Joe
Hi Joe
The difference is that the Ivatt and Push-Pull could probably retail at £100-£120 which is more affordable. Different livery variants would be possible, and people would conceivably be much more likely to make multiple purchases at that kind of price-point. True not very "sexy" but commercially more viable.
Only Langley will know for sure but I would speculate just by the sheer number of them you see, the length of time it has been available and the comparatively recent advent of the RTR versions that the most popular Langley kit is much more likely to be their B1.
Regards
Roy
Quote from: Dorsetmike on December 15, 2014, 09:10:24 PM
In some cases it doesn't need to be a compromise, choose a scenario where an express from London splits to more than one destination and model somewhere on the route after the split, I'm only familiar with the Southern, but for example a 12 coach train from Waterloo would split at Bournemouth Central, typically 6 coaches including the catering vehicle would proceed to Bournemouth West, the remaining 6 coaches might split again at Wareham, 2 for Swanage and 4 for Weymouth or with no Wareham split all 6 to Weymouth, the Atlantic coast express would split into even more portions.
You don't have to pick a prototypical location, just employ the split scenario under rule 1, you can make it fit the size of your layout.
While the other three of the big four companies did provide through coaches, they didn't employ splitting and joining to anything like the extent the Southern did. In addition those through coaches were mainly conveyed by the second grade trains rather than the most prestigious expresses.
Taking the LMS as an example (as Joe is proposing a Coronation Scot), the Top expresses such as the Royal Scot and Coronation Scot were fixed formations from start to end and did not split/join en route. In addition where through coaches were provided they were most commonly attached to a local train for the last part of their journey, typically hauled by smaller locos. You did not routinely have Coronations pottering down a branchline with 3 or 4 coaches as did happen with Bulleid Pacifics on some lines...
Quote from: ScottyStitch on December 15, 2014, 09:26:05 PM
Another example is be the Pullman out of King's Cross to Harrogate & Bradford. The train split at Leeds, and 4 or 5 coaches went to each of the two final destinations.(50s and 60s)
Presumably you are referring to the "Yorkshire Pulman", which also had a 4 coach section for Hull (detached at Doncaster) as well as the Bradford and Harrogate portions...
Again the big atractive mainline loco (in this case, usually a A4 in that period) came off at Leeds and each portion was taken on to its final destination either attached to a local train or by a smaller loco - in the case of the Hull portion typically a V3 2-6-2T. You didn't get the scenario of the big engine with the short train - the A4 would not normally be seen with less than 7 or 8 coaches
Quote from: joe cassidy on December 16, 2014, 06:50:14 PM
Just for fun I've estimated what it would cost me to buy the materials to make my own Coronation Scot train :
1 x Farish Duchess chassis - free (I've got 3 in stock)
1 x Langley body kit - £35.30
6 x Farish 57' Stanier coaches - £123.15
1 x Etched Pixels 50' Stanier kitchen car kit - £17.50
transfers from Fox - £27.70
TOTAL - £203.65
The above does not include paint, glue, bits and pieces.
In my opinion an RTR Coronation Scot at £250 would be a bargain.
Best regards,
Joe
Joe, if you are happy with that as a
representation of the Coronation Scot, then great - go for it! but I and I'm sure many others would not be satisfied...
However,
- to use that as a benchmark for pricing an R-T-R set is highly misleading - not everyone will have a chassis in stock and that is presumably the old Poole spec and not up to the standards of current expectations.
- £250 for any large loco plus 6 or 7 coaches would indeed be a 'bargain' but with a dose of reality it no longer a realistic proposition.
- you could not honestly sell that as an authentic Coronation Scot set. Tell us - would you have accepted 2 power cars + 2 ordinary Mk1 coaches as an 'accurate' 6 car Blue Pulman?? That is the equivalent of what you are proposing in a shortened set with generic vehicles instead of the bespoke prototypes...
Quote from: PLD on December 16, 2014, 08:09:28 PM
Joe, if you are happy with that as a representation of the Coronation Scot, then great - go for it! but I and I'm sure many others would not be satisfied...
you could not honestly sell that as an authentic Coronation Scot set. Tell us - would you have accepted 2 power cars + 2 ordinary Mk1 coaches as an 'accurate' 6 car Blue Pulman?? That is the equivalent of what you are proposing in a shortened set with generic vehicles instead of the bespoke prototypes...[/li]
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The Blue Pullman was a good choice because the prototypical train formation was only 6 vehicles. However, Kato have been getting away with selling truncated TGVs and Eurostars for years without any fuss.
If "short" trains with "missing" coaches are OK for modern image why should things be different for steam ?
Best regards,
Joe
Quote from: joe cassidy on December 16, 2014, 08:19:19 PM
However, Kato have been getting away with selling truncated TGVs and Eurostars for years without any fuss.
If "short" trains with "missing" coaches are OK for modern image why should things be different for steam ?
True...
BUT unlike your proposals;
- The coaches offered are accurate for the train represented, not generic types reliveried.
- They offer add-on packs to make then up to the correct full-length formations, which you have not mentioned
I feel we're starting to converge here. As mentioned in a earlier post, the existing Farish Staniers could be made more accurate for the Coronation Scot by making new roof mouldings (or a seperate moulding for the ventilation ducting that could be glued to the existing roof mouldings).
Your idea of add-on packs for those who want a 9 coach train is a great one. I would go along with that if I was a manufacturer. Assuming that Farish brought out a kitchen car the original set could be brake first/corridor first/open composite/kitchen car/third open/brake third.
The add-on set could be 2 third opens and a kitchen car, so in the 9 coach train the only discrepancy would be the composite open instead of the first restaurant.
Going back to the acceptablity of a 6 coach train, there is an article in the February 2002 issue of 'Railway Modeller', pp.78-79 that describes the construction of a 6 coach train based on heavily modified Lima coaches. If 6 coaches is OK for such an accomplished modeller as the author of this article then it's certainly enough for the likes of me !
Best regards,
Joe
Quote from: ScottyStitch on December 15, 2014, 09:26:05 PM
Another example is be the Pullman out of King's Cross to Harrogate & Bradford. The train split at Leeds, and 4 or 5 coaches went to each of the two final destinations.(50s and 60s)
Presumably you are referring to the "Yorkshire Pulman", which also had a 4 coach section for Hull (detached at Doncaster) as well as the Bradford and Harrogate portions...
Again the big atractive mainline loco (in this case, usually a A4 in that period) came off at Leeds and each portion was taken on to its final destination either attached to a local train or by a smaller loco - in the case of the Hull portion typically a V3 2-6-2T. You didn't get the scenario of the big engine with the short train - the A4 would not normally be seen with less than 7 or 8 coaches
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Yes that's what I was referring to, the Yorkshire Pullmand and the White Rose Pullman. I only have a (limited) knowledge of workings in the mid sixties, but the split portions were hauled from Leeds by type 4 diesels of the day by '65.
But with that in mind, perhaps for a complete train in the vein of the Blue Pullman, how about the Master Cutler with "Falcon" at the head? Or DP2 at the head of an ex-Kings Cross Pullman?