N Gauge Forum

With new methods of commissioning models, such as Kickstarter and new manufacturers entering the scene, I wonder if it is time to look at the Electrostar EMU. This has regularly topped a lot of wish-list polls and represents a major gap in the modern-image market.

There are several main variants currently in operation:

Class 357 - Used on LT+S routes from Fenchurch Street - full-width Turbostar type cab, 4-cars, AC only
Class 375 - Used on SouthEastern routes - 3 or 4 cars -  mixture of AC/DC and DC Only
Class 377 - Used on Southern routes -  - 3 or 4 cars -  mixture of AC/DC and DC Only
Class 377/5 - Used on Thameslink services in former First Capital Connect dark blue - 4 car, AC/DC

Class 377/6 and 377/7 - revised body type with individual windows - 4 or 5 cars AC/DC

Class 377/6 SouthEastern Metro units - full-width cab, sliding doors and hopper windows
Class 378 London Overground units - currently being lengthened to 5 cars -  - full-width cab, sliding doors and hopper window
Class 379 - AC only unit with gangwayed ends used on Liverpool Street - Cambridge and Stansted duties - has revised bodyshells with individual windows.

I would recommend the 375 and 377 as the best place to start - there would only be three bodyshell variants (Driving car, centre car and centre car with pantograph recess) and clever tooling could cover the underframe modules and bogie variants. The heavily tinted ribbon glazing (like the 170) means that interiors could be omitted to cut costs.

It would be interesting to see how many people would seriously want an Electrostar (or two) and what they would be prepared to pay for, say a 4 -car powered set.

Thoughts?

Definitely a couple for me -  "Southern" types to mix it with the 350s on the WCML.

I would pay.......well, obviously as much as the 350s which seem to go for around £100.  A bit more if it were a "Kickstarter" type of thing....say £150..?

Cheers  Jon  :)

Quote from: captainelectra on November 10, 2014, 08:17:30 PM
It would be interesting to see how many people would seriously want an Electrostar (or two) and what they would be prepared to pay for, say a 4 -car powered set.

I'd certainly be up for a Southern, pantograph-equipped 377. Don't need one, but would complement my Farish 350 nicely. Would be prepared to pay the same sort of price, too.

Cheers, NeMo

How about setting up a poll?

Yes, I'd be interested but there would need to be period of time between the ending of the Pendolino Kickstarter campaign to save up funds.

Best regards
Michael

Poll now live.

377 for me!  ;D

..as a continental european...I can't make anything else that clap to the iniziative about EMU's.......electric Pendolinos included..
:NGaugersRule:

A couple of 4 car 375's in SouthEastern livery would be great.

Ian.

North Kent 5 Car 376...  Southeastern livery of course..

Well, I've been making a lot of noise about them recently, so I'd better say where I stand.

I would expect to pay something like £100-£150 for a 4-car powered set, and I would also expect 4-car non-powered sets to be available, so that a 12-car train can be made up from 2 powered sets and 1 non-powered at a cost of something in the region of £300-£400. As I have said before, I'd like at least half-a-dozen 12-car trains (i.e. 18 x 4-car trains), which is a lot of cash and has to be saved up for out of my pension. I'd like 4 x class 375 and 2 x class 377 if possible, but I'll take whatever's going as long as they're classes 375 and/or 377.

Don't forget that there may be yet another new livery coming out shortly, when Southern's new franchise (or whatever they're called next year) gets started.

Of course, if any of the 5-car variants gets made, I'll have a couple of those as well.

From my point of view; yes, I certainly would be interested in the class 377...ideally a couple. How much would be a reasonable amount to pay? Depends on which is included, but £120.00 - £150.00 would be a decent ball-park figure.

If you are already talking about 3 different tools for bodies you are talking a lot of cash! Ideally what you want is to make things as modular as possible.

Depending on the nature of the variations between bogies they can be prohibitively flimsy or difficult to assemble.

I agree with Mike Shillabeer - let's see what happens with the Pendolino first. You need to put in a fair amount of work to even get to the point where a Kickstarter is worth trying and I think you would want to know that a reasonable number of people (absolute minimum 100, realistically more like 250-300) were interested.

Cheers, Mike

Maybe Graham Farish or Dapol will see sense and bring one out.

Quote from: BudgieJane on November 11, 2014, 07:54:14 AM
Maybe Graham Farish or Dapol will see sense and bring one out.

Sadly I would not count on seeing any more RTR EMUs from these two for a while at least. Farish were reportedly disappointed by sales of the 4-CEP and Desiro. Dapol put the Pendolino "on the back burner" for so long that Ben and Mike had to go down the Kickstarter route to get the project moving.

If these were offered as a kit of parts would that make it any easier/ cheaper to produce the different classes? 

Chassis would be standard, alternate body parts/roof parts could be supplied as a kit. 

I realise that I am not going to get a 376 (I'm the only one who mentioned it and the body sides are different from the rest of the class) but as we are all modellers it could be an alternative.

Quote from: Karhedron on November 11, 2014, 08:48:20 AM

Quote from: BudgieJane on November 11, 2014, 07:54:14 AM
Maybe Graham Farish or Dapol will see sense and bring one out.

Sadly I would not count on seeing any more RTR EMUs from these two for a while at least. Farish were reportedly disappointed by sales of the 4-CEP and Desiro. Dapol put the Pendolino "on the back burner" for so long that Ben and Mike had to go down the Kickstarter route to get the project moving.

They were a strange choices in my eyes.....but that's another debate!  :)

At this stage, this is nothing more than an information gathering exercise and no firm plans are in place. I would like to raise the profile of the Electrostar, so perhaps one of the major manufacturers takes a look.

A lot hinges on the Pendolino kickstarter, which I urge everyone to get behind. I'm sure you could make a quick buck on eBay, if a 390 isn't your top choice of model.

The kit option is more of a possibility medium term. The modular nature of the Electrostar family would make most variants possible with clever tooling and design.

Please keep on voting!  :thankyousign:

oh yes a 377 for me in both thameslink and southern liveries  2 or 3 sets of each
dummy sets would also be good to have

Being a Man of Kent, I like a good EMU so would be interested in these. I echo the comments that dummy sets would also be nice.

And whilst we are talking wishes, NSE/Jaffa Cake is more my era so would love something from those days.

Hello all,

I know there is an "I would say this wouldn't I" element here, but I genuinely think the fastest way to an Electrostar is to support the N Gauge Pendolino project on Kickstarter.

Without going in to figures and numbers (which I can if forum members want) it's pretty clear that for the manufacturers the financial case for EMUs doesn't stack up.  They've tried - with the 4-CEP and Desiro - and had their fingers burnt. 

They've tried different area, different era, so arguments that they "picked the wrong EMU" or "if they'd done XXX I'd have bought bucketloads" just won't wash. 

To put it bluntly: as a customer base we had our chance, and we blew it.

On top of which, customers are notoriously compromise resistant.  To most people, the 375/7 and 379 look the same.  It's only when someone tells you the windows are different that you spot it.  Yet if a model of a 375 was produced, then released in white and numbered as a 379, I suspect a lot of those who wanted a 379 would still decide not to buy it.

So where we are is that only a more altruistic, non-profit approach is likely to succeed, and that means Kickstarter, or something like it.   

However, as Mike and I are finding out with the Pendolino Kickstarter takes a lot of work and effort to generate publicity, get a website going, generate content for the page, find a manufacturing partner, and so on. 

But the hardest thing will be convincing people to actually sign up for it; to get to even the relatively small number of 800 units.  But if we can, or can come close, the news of a first successful Kickstarter will spread and engender faith in the idea and enthusiasm for more: and that is where an Electrostar project, or something else, could come in.

If you pledge and we fail it costs you nothing (but might make people take the concept seriously if we come close) while if we succeed you get a 9-car Pendolino for the very reasonable price of £255.  And Rapido can't then produce any more until at least 2018...

cheers

Ben A.

Quote from: Karhedron on November 11, 2014, 08:48:20 AM

Quote from: BudgieJane on November 11, 2014, 07:54:14 AM
Maybe Graham Farish or Dapol will see sense and bring one out.

Sadly I would not count on seeing any more RTR EMUs from these two for a while at least. Farish were reportedly disappointed by sales of the 4-CEP and Desiro. Dapol put the Pendolino "on the back burner" for so long that Ben and Mike had to go down the Kickstarter route to get the project moving.

If they'd bothered to release even a second issue of each livery a lot of people could be running 8 car sets with different numbers on each rather than two Blue Grey CEP's both numbered 7113 for example.

As for having a 350 released in a number of livery variations but NOT doing a 450.....utter madness.

Hi Ben,

That's the point I'm making:  if there are people who "would" buy another 350 to run an 8-car set, but are holding off because the numbers are the same, then I believe they are being too picky and giving succour to the manufacturers' claims that EMUs don't sell and mdoern OHLE modellers are too fickle.

The 450 would have come along I am sure if the 350 had sold better.  Model Rail are commissioning one in OO; maybe if they have all the livery research done then the option in N becomes more attractive, though I honestly think at this stage Farish would only do one if a retailer or similar commissions it.  Then again, if the Pendolino is a success maybe they will decide they want some of the action after all....

cheers

Ben A.

Quote from: Ben A on November 12, 2014, 09:28:22 PM
Without going in to figures and numbers (which I can if forum members want) it's pretty clear that for the manufacturers the financial case for EMUs doesn't stack up.  They've tried - with the 4-CEP and Desiro - and had their fingers burnt. 

They've tried different area, different era, so arguments that they "picked the wrong EMU" or "if they'd done XXX I'd have bought bucketloads" just won't wash. 

To put it bluntly: as a customer base we had our chance, and we blew it.

Hi Ben,

I don't agree with this argument but must argue from my arm chair position of far less knowledge. I think that the dataset available of two EMUs is too small to be declaring "we had our chance and blew it". I really don't see how you can blame people for not purchasing units they don't want in the chance that the unit they do want gets built at some undetermined point in the future. It's the same problem with OHLE electrics in general, until you get that critical mass of people modelling it, no manufacturer is going to take the plunge and start producing all the variants. What Farish really need to do now is to innovate and (from an EMU modeller's perspective) to finish what they have started by producing variants of what they already have (revised 4-CEP, other members of the desiro family) or maybe even the most prevalent unit on the railways (the Electrostar if I remember the quote correctly)...or they could just produce another Class 66 in a different colour.

Cheers,

Brooksy

I still feel that the lack of success for the current Farish EMUs is down to a very poor choice of units and may not be truly representing the so-called "lack of demand" '

This is something that has been discussed before and not totally relevant here.  When all is said and done, it's up to Bachmann how they wish toOn a personal note, I am delighted that Farish have not yet released a 450 yet!  ;D

Wonder how well the Hornby Brighton Belle is doing...?

Totally agree with Ben about the Pendolino kickstarter - everyone needs to get behind this if they can. Even if it's not your cup of tea, the resale potential is high and you should at least make your money back.I shall be watching this with great interest.

I note that Rapido seem able to do quite small batches of differently numbered units. This would be very useful for something like the Electrostar, where some variants may be hard-pressed to reach, say, 250 units.

Hi Brooksy,

Perhaps I didn't express myself clearly - you're right that from a neutral position the dataset is too small, but from the point of view of a manufacturer who invested anything from £300k up on two models that have not sold well, it is the only data that counts.

And from their point of view, we *did* have our chance.  I remember being told by someone from Bachmann at TINGS in maybe 2009 that they were taking what they felt was a huge gamble with the 350, and that there were lots of naysayers within the company who said it was a bad idea.  The problem is, poor sales have borne out the negativity.

And while no one blames people for not buying models they don't want, from a manufacturers point of view can we blame them for choosing not to invest thousands in more models that we still *might* not want?

cheers

Ben A.

Getting back to the main topic of the thread, Electrostar's are a real gap in the market at present. Living on the Sussex coast they are my bread and butter on the 4'8.5" so would want a Southern liveried 377 over just about anything else (apart from a ready to run 4-CIG).

I've followed a member of Worthing MRC's blog where he's built 377's in 'OO' - for Worthing MRC's 'Loftus Road' layout using moulded cabs he mastered himself and moulded sides modified from Bachmann 170's.

The cabs at least are available on ebay:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Resin-Electrostar-Cabs-Class-375-377-172-379-EMU-4mm-scale-OO-gauge-/191398299725?pt=UK_Trains_Railway_Models&hash=item2c903a484d (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Resin-Electrostar-Cabs-Class-375-377-172-379-EMU-4mm-scale-OO-gauge-/191398299725?pt=UK_Trains_Railway_Models&hash=item2c903a484d)

I've also looked recently at some of Etched Pixels more recent carriage releases - I think the GCR Barnums are an example - where there is a 3D shell of roof ends and floor - with etched sides rather than a complete coach shell/

I was wondering, if you borrowed a bit of inspiration from both if you'd be able to do a good 3D Cab,a basic shell of roof, floor and ends (could you get away with two shells one with Panto recess and one without? cutting one end off for a cab if building a DMB) and a series of sides? Might be easier to accommodate 379's, 377/6's and 377/7's that way.

Quote from: Ben A on November 12, 2014, 10:19:26 PM

That's the point I'm making:  if there are people who "would" buy another 350 to run an 8-car set, but are holding off because the numbers are the same, then I believe they are being too picky and giving succour to the manufacturers' claims that EMUs don't sell and mdoern OHLE modellers are too fickle.

Hi Ben,

Although I can see where you're coming from I don't agree 100%. dapol and farish seem to release different numbers for the same basic livery on a regular basis on Steam and diesel locomotives. The recently released Westerns are available in a number of identities in Rail Blue already and this must encourage more sales.
If a couple of years down the line they were still peddling say 'Western Harrier' as the only example in rail blue I think a lot of people would be complaining on here and hopefully to dapol as well.

I think the other thing when it comes to EMU's especially is that they do need to realise their potential a bit better.
Personally one of the appeals of N gauge is the chance of running full length trains, A powered CEP set and an un-powered CEP (or even BEP) as an add on would give scale length a chance without having to fork out the full price of a motorised set to buy a second or even third unit.

I'd be interested to see sales figures for some of the Dapol dummy diesels, I can't see the commercial sense in a dummy Hymek for example but could in a dummy EMU - or indeed any of the DMU's currently available.

 

Hi Ben,

What you're saying is making my point for me - the reason you're seeing the different liveries of diesels is that the first releases sell and so new ones get done!

If the 350s had sold, we'd be seeing new versions of those too!

Also, I suspect Farish are wary of releasing dummy 350s and 4-CEPs because they're powered by a single power bogie. Perfectly adequate for a 4-car train, but might struggle with 8 especially up an incline. The 6-car Blue Pullman was released with two power cars, I believe.

But again, your post is telling Farish you won't buy what's out there, but want them to tool up something very similar instead.  I accept your right to do that, but don't be surprised if the manufacturer, who has overheads and salaries to pay and a profit to make, isn't exaclty jumping at the idea!

Cheers

Ben A. 

Quote from: Ben A on November 12, 2014, 11:59:27 PM
But again, your post is telling Farish you won't buy what's out there, but want them to tool up something very similar instead.  I accept your right to do that, but don't be surprised if the manufacturer, who has overheads and salaries to pay and a profit to make, isn't exaclty jumping at the idea!

Really? So the manufacturer says that they know nothing about the prototypes of the models they're making.

If I'm building a model of a South West Trains station, do they really expect me to run a 350-class overhead EMU instead of a 450-class 3rd rail EMU? That just ain't going to happen. Although I might buy some of Captain Electra's vinyls to convert from one to the other.

As for those living on the Kent and Sussex coasts, those like me who live in south and south-east London, and those who live in between, and who want to build models based on our local stations and lines as they are today, and who have the room to run full-length trains, we need those Electrostars (and Networkers, but not so many of those), and the sooner the better. 

Hi

Going by some of the comments on here I should be saying I want some class 76s as that is what I require for my Woodhead based layout.

I feel it very unlikely that either of the manufacturers will produce these therefore I've done what I always do when I want something that is not available and built them myself.

If Electrostars are a must have for your layout then you could always have a go yourself instead of waiting for the manufacturers to produce it.

Cheers

Paul

Quote from: Ben A on November 12, 2014, 10:49:11 PM
And from their point of view, we *did* have our chance.  I remember being told by someone from Bachmann at TINGS in maybe 2009 that they were taking what they felt was a huge gamble with the 350, and that there were lots of naysayers within the company who said it was a bad idea.  The problem is, poor sales have borne out the negativity.

Indeed. I agree with this. The Farish 350 is a lovely model and I've glad I've got one. But the only reason I bought one is I ride on such units every day, so there's a personal connection. But I wouldn't buy EMUs otherwise. Much as I like the look of the Farish 4-CEP, I've no connection with these units, and no need for one because I'm not modelling an electrified line. Compared to DMUs, EMUs are much more difficult to shoe-horn into layouts unless they have third rail or overhead wires.

Quote from: Ben Line 457 on November 12, 2014, 11:37:55 PM
Although I can see where you're coming from I don't agree 100%. dapol and farish seem to release different numbers for the same basic livery on a regular basis on Steam and diesel locomotives. The recently released Westerns are available in a number of identities in Rail Blue already and this must encourage more sales.

Possibly, but 'Westerns' are extremely (the most?) popular diesels. They're the Manchester United of locomotives some might say, with a huge following of people who've never seen them on the mainline! Basically, half-decent 'Western' models sell themselves, and always have done (and the Dapol 'Western' is better than half-decent, and pretty close to a must-have model, I'd wager).

EMUs just aren't as popular. To sell they need to be pushed, and even then the appetite might not be there. As I say, the Farish 350 is lovely. Barely anything to complain about, and priced quite keenly given what you get. But EMUs are frequently tied to specific lines (especially true in the BR era) and tend to work the unsexy commuter trains rather than charismatic expresses. So you have to really want one to buy one. Rule 1 easily accommodates a 'Western' on any BR-era railway, working an interregional freight perhaps, or a diverted express. But you've really got to squint your eyes and wish away the rivet counters if you're going to run a Farish 350 anywhere other than the contemporary WCML!

Cheers, NeMo

PS. I'd happily buy some RTR Class 76s. More than one. They're gloriously ugly and full of character. Given the popularity of the Woodhead Route it's not beyond the realms someone will make such a model. But how well did the OO gauge ones sell?

If any 3D design maestros are able to do an Electrostar shell, I can certainly produce vinyl sides or individual livery elements. The artwork is all done for the SouthEastern and Southern sets and has been sitting on my hard-drive for yonks.

There is a new Electrostar class just  starting to run, the Class 387 - similar to the 379 but dual-voltage (and 110mph-capable), these are going to run on Thameslink short-term before probably going to the newly electrified Great Western when the Class 700s arrive.

A further batch has been ordered for Gatwick Express duties to replace the Wessex sets. That will probably be the last of the Electrostars, as new crashworthiness regulations will kick in for future stock.

I understand what is being said about EMU's and recognise that they are "niche" but it shouldn't mean that they get ignored. 

I made a  class 465 Networker from a couple of 3D printed cabs, four MkII coaches a GF Class 150 DMU and a set of vinyls. 

I hope that a kit will be available for a 465 quite soon.  I am happy with a kit and vinyls but I would just like the kit to be complete ie including a chassis and motor chassis.

So would a small kit production run be a better option that a RTR run?

As far as I was aware, finding a suitable chassis for a potential Electrostar kit would be the biggest problem?

I've used a Tomix TM-18 on the N-Train Class 313, which has a similar wheelbase. It's smooth and also quite cheap. Not 100% perfect but close enough.

The Farish 150, Desiro or Dapol 121 would be closer.

Quote from: captainelectra on November 13, 2014, 09:02:00 PM
The Farish 150,....

I'd love to know how many 150's we've all used to make other classes!  I think I've used 7 so far. :angel:

The Electrostar would appeal to me, despite being too new for me.  However, my era is slowly coming nearer the present.....  :worried: ;D

The profile is sorted, but not started on the cab yet, as I am trying to finish other projects first. Including a powered chassis............

There are several variations of bogie design going through my head at the moment and I will be doing some tests as soon as I can get sample gears.

Could you use a 170 as a starting point - the cab looks pretty similar to the 357?

Cheers  Jon  :)

At one time, Adam had a cutting guide worked out to shorten a 170...............................

Quote from: BudgieJane on November 13, 2014, 06:03:29 PM

Quote from: Ben A on November 12, 2014, 11:59:27 PM
If I'm building a model of a South West Trains station, do they really expect me to run a 350-class overhead EMU instead of a 450-class 3rd rail EMU? That just ain't going to happen. Although I might buy some of Captain Electra's vinyls to convert from one to the other.

Hi Jane,

Well, if you're doing Clapham junction you could run LM Desiros perfectly authentically!

Seriously though, I do agree that there is a strong case for a SWT Desiro - presumably no new tooling is required?  Just same model with no pantograph?  I know Farish have tooled the bogie with the 3rd rail pick ups.

But in the meantime, why not try a vinyl conversion?  You support both a major and a cottage manufacturer, get the SWT uniit you want, and if later an RTR version comes a,one you can feel pleased that you did something to make that happen.


Cheers

Ben A.

Actually, I'm not doing Crapham Junkyard, but something that started out as a cross between Beckenham Junction and Orpington, and which has the tentative title Beckington.

Quote from: Jameswgm on November 13, 2014, 08:54:19 PM
As far as I was aware, finding a suitable chassis for a potential Electrostar kit would be the biggest problem?

A Farish 150 motor bogie should be fine.

Cheers, Mike

Hi Jane

Your layout sounds interesting.  I had a look on flickr at Beckenham Junction and Orpington and I can see the appeal.  Do you have a thread on here about it?

I think you're a little harsh about Clapham Junction.  It is sprawling and slightly disjointed but I suspect this is down to its growth over the years.  It was my local station for a few years in the 90s, and passing through recently I noticed some attempts to modernise - a new footbridge over the southernmost  platforms.

cheers

Ben A.

I haven't bought a Desiro for 2 years as I expected that GF will release a South West Trains version and I did want to buy 3-4 from those. But nothing happened, so in this year on TINGS I bought a London Midland version and some vinyl from Captain to convert it to SWT livery. (I try to model SWT on T-trak modules.)

Although Class 375 or 377 is not really my area, I traveled on both set, so I would definitely support a Kickstarter campaign with one motorized and 1 or 2 dummy sets. But only after the Pendolino project, so please be a little patient to start this project. I think I am not the only one who have to save a lot of money to have 1 set from that...