Following on from the recent threads about quality control, as the proud new owner of a small fleet of Dapol and Grafar locos I'm interested to know why they need oiling and running in - and/or why my Japanese-origin stock does not (even though some of it is built in the same country, aka China). I actually double-checked the instructions on my Japanese locomotives to see if I was overlooking some essential pre-operations maintenance, but there's nothing definitely needed (and if there was it would be very clearly indicated) - RTR is literally RTR.
Now, if the British stuff was being produced by the nationalised British Model Railway Corporation in a grimy factory by a bunch of fat-fingered blokes working to rule during the few minutes not on a tea break, I'd understand that a certain amount of TLC would be necessary before serious running commences, but it's 2014 so what are Japanese manufacturers doing which is different to the "British" ones?
Quote from: railsquid on October 17, 2014, 04:59:43 PM
Now, if the British stuff was being produced by the nationalised British Model Railway Corporation in a grimy factory by a bunch of fat-fingered blokes working to rule during the few minutes not on a tea break, I'd understand that a certain amount of TLC would be necessary before serious running commences, but it's 2014 so what are Japanese manufacturers doing which is different to the "British" ones?
Japanese models often use low friction mechanisms with self lubricating plastics, that don't need external lubrication.
To be honest, I think the requirement that Dapol place on lubrication is overkill (I don't believe Farish have any requirement in this way, though both manufacturers locos come with factory grease lubricant already applied). Farish models shouldn't need anything straight out of the box; Dapol say to lubricate (though I doubt it makes significant difference for their low friction mechanisms).
In time, both manufacturers models benefit from very light oiling of the geartrain. The motors used now generally have self lubricating Phosphor bearings so nothing is required. Something to watch is that recent Farish and Dapol steam and diesel have such bearings on the wheelsets and these are the pickups - they should*not* be oiled as this can seriously affect conductivity and running (see the Dapol 57xx thread).
HTH,
Alan
Quote from: Dr Al on October 17, 2014, 06:12:04 PM
To be honest, I think the requirement that Dapol place on lubrication is overkill (I don't believe Farish have any requirement in this way, though both manufacturers locos come with factory grease lubricant already applied). Farish models shouldn't need anything straight out of the box; Dapol say to lubricate (though I doubt it makes significant difference for their low friction mechanisms).
HTH,
Alan
Before last year's N Gauge Show I was asked by a friend to speak to Graham Farish about what servicing the 5MT needed. The answer was pretty much what you've said and they get more returned locos with problems due to over oiling than under oiling (I think that's what he said).
Quote from: johnlambert on October 17, 2014, 08:05:10 PM
Quote from: Dr Al on October 17, 2014, 06:12:04 PM
To be honest, I think the requirement that Dapol place on lubrication is overkill (I don't believe Farish have any requirement in this way, though both manufacturers locos come with factory grease lubricant already applied). Farish models shouldn't need anything straight out of the box; Dapol say to lubricate (though I doubt it makes significant difference for their low friction mechanisms).
HTH,
Alan
Before last year's N Gauge Show I was asked by a friend to speak to Graham Farish about what servicing the 5MT needed. The answer was pretty much what you've said and they get more returned locos with problems due to over oiling than under oiling (I think that's what he said).
Coincidentally one of my acquisitions this weekend was a Graham Farish 5MT, and the instructions say it does need running in but doesn't say anything about requiring oiling before running.
Quote from: Dr Al on October 17, 2014, 06:12:04 PM
Quote from: railsquid on October 17, 2014, 04:59:43 PM
Now, if the British stuff was being produced by the nationalised British Model Railway Corporation in a grimy factory by a bunch of fat-fingered blokes working to rule during the few minutes not on a tea break, I'd understand that a certain amount of TLC would be necessary before serious running commences, but it's 2014 so what are Japanese manufacturers doing which is different to the "British" ones?
Japanese models often use low friction mechanisms with self lubricating plastics, that don't need external lubrication.
To be honest, I think the requirement that Dapol place on lubrication is overkill (I don't believe Farish have any requirement in this way, though both manufacturers locos come with factory grease lubricant already applied). Farish models shouldn't need anything straight out of the box; Dapol say to lubricate (though I doubt it makes significant difference for their low friction mechanisms).
In time, both manufacturers models benefit from very light oiling of the geartrain. The motors used now generally have self lubricating Phosphor bearings so nothing is required. Something to watch is that recent Farish and Dapol steam and diesel have such bearings on the wheelsets and these are the pickups - they should*not* be oiled as this can seriously affect conductivity and running (see the Dapol 57xx thread).
HTH,
Alan
Yup, most enlightening, many thanks! I hadn't heard of "self lubricating plastics" before. But why is running-in required?
Quote from: railsquid on October 17, 2014, 08:17:00 PM
Coincidentally one of my acquisitions this weekend was a Graham Farish 5MT, and the instructions say it does need running in but doesn't say anything about requiring oiling before running.
Irrespective of further replies, following a tip by a friend I always give the motion of steam locos a
light oiling before running them which does appear to help, especially on Farish tender driven locos.
Quote from: railsquid on October 17, 2014, 08:38:36 PM
Yup, most enlightening, many thanks! I hadn't heard of "self lubricating plastics" before. But why is running-in required?
After a little running most mechanisms always perform better - this initial running (running-in) allows all the parts to settle and any rough surfaces or corners to be lightly worn off and smooth running surfaces, bearings, motor brushes etc.
Of course, some say there is no such thing as 'running in', it's all 'wearing out' ;)
Cheers,
Alan
Most of the Farish over-oiling I have seen is straight from the factory with models sitting in pools of oil and it sometimes even soaking into and staining the foam :thumbsdown:
Self lubricating plastics contain substances that as they wear leave the surface lubricated. Similar things can be done with some metals, and some woods do it naturally - a fact clock makers have exploited for a very long time.
The models are also often shipped with a transit grease applied. That is designed to protect the mechanism against the continuous vibration while being shipped and to break down when you add a little bit of oil. If you get a newish loco that runs better as it warms up it often indicates there is undissolved transit grease present.
Alan
Just for the record, I purchased a new Fleischmann locomotive in Germany, and the guy in the shop suggested to run it in for 30 minutes in each direction, even though this wasn't mentioned in the instructions.
Thanks for kicking this thread off... I have never understood the term 'running in' even with cars. Surely if you buy a car, jump in it and drive it, it's running', innit?
Same with model locos.... get 'em out box, put on layout, run 'em.
If that's not running in, then I don't know the real meaning of the term. I don't own a rolling road, and all my new stock from 2010 onwards is still in boxes awaiting complete layout restoration. However, when I do get a unit out of the box every now and again, it runs fine - including my beloved BP!!
I really think that this running in business is a crock of.
As noted in previous posts, I think that over-lubrication is more of a problem.
To quote the generic Bachmann product maintenance instructions: "(Running in) will allow the gears in the mechanism to bed in and provide smooth operation."
Presumably Japanese manufacturers provide pre-bedded-in gears.
Meanwhile, while running in the previously mentioned Fleischmann, it came to a sudden stop after a few laps and there's clearly something wrong - the lights still work but it causes a short circuit once a certain amount of power has been applied. :(
I think it's run out :-[ ;)
Quote from: Bealman on November 03, 2014, 06:48:51 AM
I think it's run out :-[ ;)
Maybe it needs re-filling with diesel Railsquid ;D
Hmm, maybe the keys fell out of the ignition or something.
In a nutshell the Japanese owned N scale manufacturers make a far superior model than Dapol or GF, I had many Japanese made locos between 2005 & 2007 and never had a single problem, that includes trams.
MicroAce, Kato, Tomix and Modemo trains and trams give years of trouble free service, even so I still love our British steam locos and have resided to the fact that I can expect trouble from time to time.
Quote from: longbridge on November 03, 2014, 11:33:24 AM
In a nutshell the Japanese owned N scale manufacturers make a far superior model than Dapol or GF, I had many Japanese made locos between 2005 & 2007 and never had a single problem, that includes trams.
I guess the manufacturers model their respective countries' prototype reliability faithfully...
Quote from: longbridge on November 03, 2014, 11:33:24 AMMicroAce, Kato, Tomix and Modemo trains and trams give years of trouble free service, even so I still love our British steam locos and have resided to the fact that I can expect trouble from time to time.
OT, but I must admit the Farish 5MT I just acquired has awakened slumbering "want!" reflexes for prettily coloured kettles. (Japanese steamers just don't do it for me; if I want a black tube with a silly number of driving wheels and square smoke deflectors I'd buy German, regardless of any technical advantage).
Now let me pop off to see if my Dapol HST (which looks to be a nice runner so far) has finished its post-oiling running-in...
Quote from: railsquid on November 03, 2014, 12:26:40 PM
Now let me pop off to see if my Dapol HST (which looks to be a nice runner so far) has finished its post-oiling running-in...
Well, it's OK as long as it's on the flat, but it really doesn't like my gradient even with a good run-up at full speed. OK, it isn't the kindest of gradients (and temporary, pending modification), but is perfectly manageable for any half-decent loco and three decently running coaches. I get much better results by replacing the Dapol HST power car with my SquidMobile single DMU car (the one in my avatar) from (IIRC) MicroAce, which is 2nd hand of uncertain origin and which sounds like it could do with a bit of preventative maintenance. (It doesn't help that the Dapol power car has no traction tyres, and the dummy power car runs very stiffly - it has the same bogies as the power car complete with gears on the axles - presumably for the pickup for the lights).