well, here we go with a rant...
when the Dapol A4 first came out, i got mallard, which after less than a day of testing, went back to the shop with a faulty motor and replaced, only to fail on me 2 days later. this then went to DCC supplies for repair, where a replacement was sent out as it was a write off...
so already 2 write offs...
next on the list was a Dapol A3 Flying Scotsman, which again failed after 2 days. This went to DCC supplies as, you guessed it, a write off!
6 months went by before i could get another as they were discontinued.
next on the list was Modelbahns Mallard in BR Blue. this lasted a week before going to DCC supplies for motor fault. it has since been back 4 times with self exploding valve gear, motor faults and yet more broken valve gear.
Silver link was a breathe of fresh air, no faults at all!
Bittern so far has also yet to be a problem, but i see this as a matter of time.
Now flying Scotsman comes into it again, after a traction tyre came off, i thought i would try replace it, so i removed the nut that holds the con rod to get access, and found it near impossible to get the tyre over the top due to no clearance at the top. so my next alternative was to remove the chassis and running plate and get in that way, no longer than i had removed a screw the valve gear that connects to the running plate snapped off, before quickly being followed by the other side.
This now of course is a write off....
i have just about had it up to here with Dapols very poor A3s and A4s. iv spoken to fiona at DCC supplies, who when looking at my list of repairs mostly consists of fault A3s and A4s. and she tells me A3s and A4s are the main locomotives that come into the workshop for repairs.
iv had enough so much, that tomorrow im getting in touch with Joel, making an official complaint about this model which now sits in god knows how many bits on my desk, as i know for a fact if i send it back, i will probably not recieve a flying scotsman. it can be easily repaired with a new chassis, but i dont see why i should be paying out for a chassis where you have to remove most of it just to fit a bleeding traction tyre!
every other dapol loco as been fine, just these 2 classes of locomotives. and when you add this onto all the other stuff going on in my life, im losing the will to live.
im half tempted to even jack in the hobby as everything just keeps going wrong at the moment, i seem to spend more time repairing locos than i do enjoying them, and most of the time i havent even done anything to them for them to go wrong!
i sometimes wonder what i did in the past life to deserve the life i have now its unbearable at the moment...
I understand your frustration - I went through a similar experience with a stereo system - but don't be so despondent - toy trains is not a matter of life and death, it's LESS important than that.
Blacklist Dapol and buy stuff from Farish/Union Mills in future.
Regards,
Joe Cassidy
Hi
Join my rants on thread 'How Bad, really, are Dapol and Farish'
When I buy any loco I expect it to work, without any adjustment, fettling or other interference - right out of the box. Doesn't always happen - as obviously you and I have found out.
As you say - sometimes you lose the will to live. However it seems amazing to me the number of people that make excuses for the sometimes poor quality of N gauge locos.
Bob Austin
I don't expect every one to be perfect, so reports of a few failures are not unexpected. What I don't understand is why the duds all seem to end up in the same hands. why do some like yourselves have such a bad run (5 out of 7 failures is one of the worst reports I've heard) but others have no issues at all. I could name a couple of people with double figure numbers of A3/4s with no failures at all.
It can't just be random distribution can it?? (I don't believe the manufacturers/dealers deliberately target individuals to dump the duds on) so what is it??
Is it the way the purchasers treat the locos - the way they handle them (I've seen a number with squashed valve gear), store them (on their side in the box is NOT good for the valve gear nor wiper pickups) or run them (e.g. unsuitable controller used, not following running in instructions, overloading etc)
By your own admission, at least one of your failures I'd classify as 'self inflicted'...
Or is it the Dealers? there does tend to be a greater rate of failures reported of models bought mail order from box shifters than those who paid a little bit more to buy from their local model shop, saw it test-run before buying and didn't leave its transport to the vagaries of the Royal Mail (or worst certain couriers especially the one favoured by a certain Scouse emporium!)
I'm not saying it is all your fault (even I have the odd one - think I'm the only person I know to have a Union Mills loco NOT run stright out of the box! (the loco-tender wire had become detached in transit), but there are things you can do to improve your odds.
Looks like I am joining the club, with my Silver Link valve gear woes--it has just gone back to DCC.
So far, my Mallard and Flying Scotsman have behaved well, with Mallard pulling 14 carriages quite happily and 4472 not being not quite so happy with the same set. These locos are barely run in, so there is still plenty of opportunity for them to fail!
I for one, would be happy to trade some Dapol detail for some Union Mills heft and reliability--my D16 4-4-0 was perfectly content hauling 15 carriages in my recent trial.
Quote from: PLD on October 16, 2014, 07:54:05 PM
I don't expect every one to be perfect, so reports of a few failures are not unexpected.
I don't understand.
Why don't you expect every one to be perfect. You are paying your hard earned cash for something that is supposed to work properly. The manufacturer is selling a product to a specification. If it doesn't work to that specification then the product is not fit for purpose. A clear breach of contract. Ok you can return it for a replacement or repair or you can live with a loco that doesn't do what it says on the tin. That's up to you but that means the onus is on you to get the problem sorted although its the manufacturer that's screwed up.
As I've said elsewhere on this forum. Few people would accept some of the problems that occur with N gauge locos for other consumer products we buy.
Its about time we got real and started to complain about poor quality.
I admit that I have never complained to a manufacturer about poor quality but I intend to start right now. I hope others join me.
Bob Austin
So far I have not had any problems with my purchases but if/when I have a problem action will be taken to make those who I feel are at fault very aware of my problem.
Quote from: austinbob on October 16, 2014, 08:15:29 PM
Quote from: PLD on October 16, 2014, 07:54:05 PM
I don't expect every one to be perfect, so reports of a few failures are not unexpected.
I don't understand.
Why don't you expect every one to be perfect. You are paying your hard earned cash for something that is supposed to work properly. The manufacturer is selling a product to a specification. If it doesn't work to that specification then the product is not fit for purpose. A clear breach of contract. Ok you can return it for a replacement or repair or you can live with a loco that doesn't do what it says on the tin. That's up to you but that means the onus is on you to get the problem sorted although its the manufacturer that's screwed up.
Bob Austin
In manufacturing there is going to be a failure rate Dapol used to work on between 3 and 7%. Based on that, if 1000 models are produced, they would expect between 30 and 70 to have an issue. It just seems that unhappy people shout loudest, you won't have heard a peep from the other 900 odd models that have been sold and work well.
This is the same for EVERY manufacturer. No matter if it is TVs, irons, cars or model locos, this is why there is a warranty.
As for not buying Dapol then you really are chopping off your nose to spite your face. How will you get a 9f, a Grange, a 67 or a HST if you refuse to buy Dapol.
If it doesn't work return it and get another. Don't stop buying them because you've had a bad one.
Alistair
Quote from: PLD on October 16, 2014, 07:54:05 PM
Is it the way the purchasers treat the locos - the way they handle them (I've seen a number with squashed valve gear), store them (on their side in the box is NOT good for the valve gear nor wiper pickups) or run them (e.g. unsuitable controller used, not following running in instructions, overloading etc)
That's a good point actually. Not saying it applies to the OP whom I would guess knows how to treat these things with care, but when I used to attend the local N Gauge group the way some of the locos were handled used to make me cringe! :worried: Small steamers with delicate con-rods being 'dumped' onto the track quite roughly three or four times using big sausage-fingers in an attempt to rail the loco properly :goggleeyes:
In these days of finer detail and delicate mechanisms you just can't handle locos like you could 20 years ago - if you DO have fat sausage-fingers then at least use one of the proprietary railer-ramps to line the loco up on the track :thumbsup:
Suffice to say that if DCC Supplies have confirmed that a LOT of A3/A4s are returned then there is clearly a bigger problem ;)
Paul
When Dapol announced that they were making correct A4's and A3's I thought that I would finally be able to replace my elderly and (apparently) unauthentic Farish A3 and Minitrix A4... :hmmm:
...from what I am hearing I am going to keep using these two locos that have never let me down, and will wait until I hear that the Dapol offerings work properly! :-\
Alistair
I don't know where you get your acceptable failure rate of 3 to 7%. but if that were true then most manufacturers would be bankrupt.
The cost of product failure in manufacturing is far higher than the cost of producing the product correctly in the first place.
Every failure means that the costs to the manufacturer include:
Cost of processing complaints and returns
Cost of replacement or repair - sometimes several times over if the design is dodgy
Cost of administration
Cost of loss of customer confidence - through poor reputation of product faults and reliability
etc. etc.
I have been involved in Quality Management systems and Quality Insurance for many years and I can assure you that Poor Quality costs more to the manufacturer than getting things right first time.
Warranties are there, for good manufacturers, to ensure that the customer has some redress for the OCCASIONAL instances where a bad product slips through the net or there is an unexpected failure within the normal life of the product. A warranty is not a license to ship rubbish!
I am sorry for the rant but I really believe that some of us are making excuses for poor quality in our favourite N gauge products that we would not accept for other consumer products.
Bob Austin
Quote from: austinbob on October 16, 2014, 08:15:29 PM
Quote from: PLD on October 16, 2014, 07:54:05 PM
I don't expect every one to be perfect, so reports of a few failures are not unexpected.
I don't understand.
Why don't you expect every one to be perfect.
::)
Beause:
1 I'm a realist not an Idealist.
2 No manufacturer of anything has ever achieved 100 perfection!
(do you in your employment? You have either made mistakes or have made nothing!!)
3 With tighter Quality Control the failure rate could be reduced, but QC costs big bucks and modelers are in general a tight fisted bunch (with N gauge seemingly worse than most) and those who complain about the failures would also be the first to complain if prices were increased 20-30%!!
The manufacturers have simply found the balancing point between cost and quality where they get the best overall financial return...
thats where your wrong, im not complaining cos of 1 or 2 bad models, im now on my 2nd flying scotsman model, and 8th A4, with each one having some sort of repair except silver link.
what i dont understand is, not one person iv heard of having a silver link has developed a problem, yet the other A4s have.
what did they do with silver link to not encounter any problems yet i know of one of each named A4 encountering a problem. some more than others, mainly the first batch of A4s (mallard etc) being the biggest problems yet, and same goes with the A3s
You're right everybody makes mistakes
There are always gonna be some failures.
The level of failure is dependent on the quality of design and production.
My beef is that we seem to ready to accept more failures for locos in our wonderful hobby than is reasonable and acceptable compared to any other consumer product. Why is that?
Bob Austin
I must say that in the past few years I've had a Q1 a Voyager and then three St Ives Bay 153s all failures Kernow were absolutely brilliant with thier service the final St Ives 153 must have been sent as replacement before they received the faulty one, all these were Dapol BUT I did buy a Farish Warship that only had three axle drive caused by a missing washer this was replaced by Farish the same week . I am very careful with all my stock in fact a lot stays on the layout all the time the newest I keep in the original boxes.
The Dapol faults were the little circuit boards one of the 153s actualy melted the insulation tape and the Voyager the same I now run the motor in that direct from the pickups with no problems.
Bob
Quote from: Bob Tidbury on October 16, 2014, 09:57:47 PM
I must say that in the past few years I've had a Q1 a Voyager and then three St Ives Bay 153s all failures Kernow were absolutely brilliant with thier service the final St Ives 153 must have been sent as replacement before they received the faulty one, all these were Dapol BUT I did buy a Farish Warship that only had three axle drive caused by a missing washer this was replaced by Farish the same week . I am very careful with all my stock in fact a lot stays on the layout all the time the newest I keep in the original boxes.
The Dapol faults were the little circuit boards one of the 153s actualy melted the insulation tape and the Voyager the same I now run the motor in that direct from the pickups with no problems.
Bob
I'm pleased you got your problems resolved to your satisfaction. BUT!! the problems shouldn't have happened. Should they?
I'm sure that there are many customers who are more than happy with their purchases but there just seem to be so many bad experiences, including my own
Bob Austin
Quote from: portland-docks on October 16, 2014, 09:49:03 PM
thats where your wrong, im not complaining cos of 1 or 2 bad models, im now on my 2nd flying scotsman model, and 8th A4, with each one having some sort of repair except silver link.
I don't doubt that you have had that failure rate and understand your frustration.
My chalenge is why you should have 7/8 A4s fail and others have 7/8 perfect? If it was entirely the manufacturers fault, surely we would expect both to each have 4 good ones and 4 bad? What factors skew the distribution of the failures among purchasers? If we understood that we could identify potential causes after the factory gate to the benefit of those aflicted by higher failure rates...
Quote from: portland-docks on October 16, 2014, 09:49:03 PM
what i dont understand is, not one person iv heard of having a silver link has developed a problem, yet the other A4s have.
I suspect the aparent lower failure rate for Silver Link is because a good proportion of them live in a cupboard and have never even been taken out of the box so we don't know if they run or not!!
I will tell you all about my own experience with a Dapol A3 (4472) first batch, realeased a while ago now.
The model was purchased off the shelf from The Signal Box in Anstey Leicestershire. I paid £101 for the model. I watched it being test run before handing over my cash. It looked and seemed ok to me........
Due to this excellent forum I had read reviews on both A3 + A4. I was aware of issues prior to deciding to buy one.
On purchasing the loco, I didn't take it home with me that day. I left it with the shop to 'run in, oil, service' and check for any issues that I had read about on the forum based on other peoples experience.
When I got home half an hour later the phone rang. The model shop had started the service on the loco and had found numerous small faults. Some were poor alignment of wheel sets to piston positions. Others were gaps in various areas that made the loco wonky. Others were poor cable connections/pick up connections.
Overall he said that these were repairable but down to poor assembly only.
I got my loco fixed and she has run perfect since.
On the basis of what the shop found they checked their remaining stocks of A3/A4 models and found similar problems in some but not all models. A high percentage were returned to Dapol I was told.
Excellent shop at Anstey and they sorted my loco.
Regarding the A3/A4 saga, there was obviously a massive QC issue on models especially first batch released and Dapol have been put over hot coals ever since.
This doesn't excuse the issues and the frustrations this has caused many customers expecting to get goods fit for purpose for a the top prices paid for these.
I hope Dapol have learnt from this. On the flip side of the coin I have found their diesels such as the class 58 and class 67 to be excellent.
Quote from: portland-docks on October 16, 2014, 06:15:13 PM
so my next alternative was to remove the chassis and running plate and get in that way, no longer than i had removed a screw the valve gear that connects to the running plate snapped off, before quickly being followed by the other side.
This now of course is a write off....
It's not. This is fairly easily repairable - I've repaired 4 of these in this way. It is a weak aspect of the model as it's a glued joint, which sometimes seems to be weak.
What you did need (and Dapol would do well to supply) is an exploded diagram of what you need to take off to switch out tyres. Sadly, your approach wouldn't have worked as there's an internal screw holding the main chassis to the running plate. This can only be accessed by removing the boiler.
Cheers,
Alan
Quote from: Sprintex on October 16, 2014, 09:07:12 PM
Suffice to say that if DCC Supplies have confirmed that a LOT of A3/A4s are returned then there is clearly a bigger problem ;)
There are a number of common issues:
- this one with valve gear
- Dapol motor syndrome (as I call it)
- failing capacitor networks that can make it appear like the motor has gone
- poor pickup
However, all of these are fixable, and fixable fairly easily. Moreover, if my fleet of 6 A3s and 2 A4s is anything to go by the resulting runners are really pretty good.
Cheers,
Alan
Quote from: PLD on October 16, 2014, 07:54:05 PM
Is it the way the purchasers treat the locos - the way they handle them (I've seen a number with squashed valve gear), store them (on their side in the box is NOT good for the valve gear nor wiper pickups) or run them (e.g. unsuitable controller used, not following running in instructions, overloading etc)
This is precisely it PLD - nail on head.
Modern locos are more delicate, both detail and mechanically this is just a fact - nowadays they really aren't toys and can't be treated nearly as roughly as old school Farish or Minitrix. I've watched at exhibitions aghast at the way some folks treat their models, and those are the ones exhibiting! Dragging models along the track dead, dumping them down, roughly pulling them through dead track sections, holding them back with the wheels spinning to hook up that van they forgot....etc.etc....and then they wonder why they fail so readily? It surprises me folk are so rough with their investment - I look at a loco and tend to remember it cost a hundred quid, and then treat it very carefully!
That's not even going near the issue of the quality of the track they are expected to run on in some cases.
So be gentle folks! They will then serve you well!
Going back to the OP - the locos in question (Flying Scotsman at any rate) are unlikely to be write offs. Whilst frustrating, it's not as bad as that - they almost certainly can be put right. Complaining is fair enough, but Dapol don't seem likely to change the design, nor does this really help you at present, unless they offer an out of warranty repair for you (which would be generous). I would also look seriously at why you're having tyres shedding in the first place - that's the root problem rather than the loco - likely through handling or the track.
If you don't get them repaired by Dapol, or DCC supplies say they are write offs, let me know - they can be fixed.
Cheers,
Alan
Quote from: portland-docks on October 16, 2014, 06:15:13 PM
it can be easily repaired with a new chassis
Actually, because of the design of the A3 and A4, it can't.
Because in both cases the motion bracket for the eccentric rods is connected to the footplate, when you swapped the body you'd swap over the valve gear fault onto the new chassis. This is likely why DCC are saying these are write offs. I just re-bond the motion bracket onto the footplate, and have had no trouble to date with the models I have that were fixed like this.
Don't know why DCC are writing off models only with motor faults though - unless their supply of replacement motors has dried up.
Cheers,
Alan
Quote from: austinbob on October 16, 2014, 09:22:12 PM
Alistair
I don't know where you get your acceptable failure rate of 3 to 7%. but if that were true then most manufacturers would be bankrupt.
Warranties are there, for good manufacturers, to ensure that the customer has some redress for the OCCASIONAL instances where a bad product slips through the net or there is an unexpected failure within the normal life of the product. A warranty is not a license to ship rubbish!
Bob Austin
This was the figure given in a discussion on RMWEB by Dave Jones when he was running the side. This is a figure that is factored in to the costings of the model so we re already paying for the fact that there will be failures, these failed models can go on to be donor models for the parts that are good to be canabalised to make the other failures run.
You have sort of lost your own argument there in the second statement I have quoted. By putting "occasional instances where a bad product slips though the net".
Is it not possible that in a modern manufacturing process that has replaced people who care about doing the job, with robots and people in Chinese factories that a dud product can slip through the net.
Have you ever not put enough glue on a model or created a dry solder joint whilst doing electrics? I have it's unfortunate but these things happen and are not noticed until you turn it over and it either falls off again or has no power going to it.
If you want to see how badly it can go look at one of the biggest car producers in the world, Toyota. 23 million cars recalled in the past 5 years because of faulty parts!
If you didn't like this fact then feel free to ignore it. But just remember that if it wasn't for Dapol pushing, we would probably still be waiting for the Farish 60, ivatt and 101 that were promised 5+ years before they got it to the shops.
Yes it is unfortunate that people get models that aren't as perfect as they should be, but you can return it, swap it and try again. Ask the shop to test the loco for you, usually in the first coup,e of laps you can see an issue, if it has one try another. If that shop won't do it go to another who will take this time to give you good service.
As Someone has said these models are getting some very fine detail now in a good picture it can be hard to tell if it is N or 00. This has to be realised and adjustments made in how we handle these new high detail models we are getting.
Just think if it wasn't for Dapol where would you get a grange, schools, 153, 156, 14xx, 67, 58, terrier etc etc. They must be doing something right!
Alistair
Modern locomotives do have very delicate detailing. Most damage on mine has been inflicted just getting them out of the box... and that includes my beloved Blue Pullman!
I don't have a Dapol A3 or A4 because I couldn't afford them when they were launched, so I decided to stick with my Minitrix locos, also I was put off by the amount of negative comments posted about them on the forum.
I read reviews in the magazines but also take note of posts on this forum. With any new loco there are bound to be a few duds but there did seem to but rather a lot more complaints about the A3 and A4.
:NGaugersRule:
Quote from: alibuchan on October 17, 2014, 05:19:55 AM
Quote from: austinbob on October 16, 2014, 09:22:12 PM
Alistair
I don't know where you get your acceptable failure rate of 3 to 7%. but if that were true then most manufacturers would be bankrupt.
Warranties are there, for good manufacturers, to ensure that the customer has some redress for the OCCASIONAL instances where a bad product slips through the net or there is an unexpected failure within the normal life of the product. A warranty is not a license to ship rubbish!
Bob Austin
This was the figure given in a discussion on RMWEB by Dave Jones when he was running the side. This is a figure that is factored in to the costings of the model so we re already paying for the fact that there will be failures, these failed models can go on to be donor models for the parts that are good to be canabalised to make the other failures run.
You have sort of lost your own argument there in the second statement I have quoted. By putting "occasional instances where a bad product slips though the net".
Is it not possible that in a modern manufacturing process that has replaced people who care about doing the job, with robots and people in Chinese factories that a dud product can slip through the net.
Have you ever not put enough glue on a model or created a dry solder joint whilst doing electrics? I have it's unfortunate but these things happen and are not noticed until you turn it over and it either falls off again or has no power going to it.
If you want to see how badly it can go look at one of the biggest car producers in the world, Toyota. 23 million cars recalled in the past 5 years because of faulty parts!
If you didn't like this fact then feel free to ignore it. But just remember that if it wasn't for Dapol pushing, we would probably still be waiting for the Farish 60, ivatt and 101 that were promised 5+ years before they got it to the shops.
Yes it is unfortunate that people get models that aren't as perfect as they should be, but you can return it, swap it and try again. Ask the shop to test the loco for you, usually in the first coup,e of laps you can see an issue, if it has one try another. If that shop won't do it go to another who will take this time to give you good service.
As Someone has said these models are getting some very fine detail now in a good picture it can be hard to tell if it is N or 00. This has to be realised and adjustments made in how we handle these new high detail models we are getting.
Just think if it wasn't for Dapol where would you get a grange, schools, 153, 156, 14xx, 67, 58, terrier etc etc. They must be doing something right!
Alistair
Alistair
I have no comment other than to say that if we continue to accept and make excuses for bad products then things will not improve. Loco manufacturers will rub their hands with satisfaction knowing that the poor customer will not complain and either accept poor product or go through the hassle of customer returns and repairs.
Bob Austin
Quote from: alibuchan on October 17, 2014, 05:19:55 AM
Quote from: austinbob on October 16, 2014, 09:22:12 PM
I don't know where you get your acceptable failure rate of 3 to 7%. but if that were true then most manufacturers would be bankrupt.
This was the figure given in a discussion on RMWEB by Dave Jones when he was running the side. This is a figure that is factored in to the costings of the model so we re already paying for the fact that there will be failures, these failed models can go on to be donor models for the parts that are good to be canabalised to make the other failures run.
I can independently verify that the failure rate figures quoted are about right. A couple of years ago I contacted one of the major box shifters to enquire about their return rate for faulty locos. Both Darish and Dapol had a return rate of about 5% which is right in the middle of the range Alistair quotes.
As a large retailer, I think they probably have a much more representative picture of average values than an individual who may be lucky or unclucky. What this value shows is that Dapol and Farish both charge similar prices for their products and both have a similar failure rate. Clearly british manufacturers have decided that this is the price point the market will stand. I am not saying that they are right or wrog but the fact that they both seem to have independently reached the same figure means they may know their customers better than we give them credit for.
I have a decent sized loco collection from each of main manufacturers. Out of my fleet I have had 1 faulty loco each from Dapol, Farish and Peco. In each case the faulty loco has been repaired or replaced.
Yes it is disappointing if a loco does not work out of the box but let's keep a sense of perspective. As long as the manufacturers have systems in place to make good any faults (repair or replace), it is not a big deal.
Quote from: austinbob on October 17, 2014, 08:18:35 AM
Loco manufacturers will rub their hands with satisfaction knowing that the poor customer will not complain and either accept poor product or go through the hassle of customer returns and repairs.
Given then they clearly are getting lots of returns, and that they have been comprehensively criticised on this forum, RMWeb (which they monitor) and no doubt others, I doubt they are thinking this way.
There is evidently far less acceptance in this day and age than in the past - they first load of A3s had to have their tender paintwork redone for instance due to an error pointed out on RMweb, and apparently the new Farish Duchesses have gone back to rectify nameplate problems.
There are problems still, but it's an imperfect world, and things still continue to improve IMHO.
Cheers,
Alan
Quote from: Dr Al on October 17, 2014, 09:15:26 AM
There are problems still, but it's an imperfect world, and things still continue to improve IMHO.
Agreed, while we are not there yet, manufacturers are continuing to improve. Farish have ditched their tender drive in steam locos after persistent reports of locking valve gear and have replaced it with coreless loco drive. Dapol repsonded to the quartering issues in their early steam locos by introducing squared axels.
Dapol seem to have slowed their R&D slightly since the departure of Dave Jones. I guess it is taking longer than expected for Richard to get up to speed. The Grange appears to be taking shape nicely though so hopefully we can look forward to seeing how they progress.
Then of course we have Dave Jones' own line of locos to look forward to. He clearly feels that the quality bar can be raised and is offering to individually test each loco before dispatch which should greatly improve the QC in his line. I am looking forward to the GWR Mogul.
Quote from: Karhedron on October 17, 2014, 09:11:01 AM
I can independently verify that the failure rate figures quoted are about right. A couple of years ago I contacted one of the major box shifters to enquire about their return rate for faulty locos. Both Darish and Dapol had a return rate of about 5% which is right in the middle of the range Alistair quotes.
Whilst this is undoubtedly true, and one fo the best sources of statistics on this, the failure rate will be a lot higher - it doen't consider those locos that are never run, or those that are not repaired, or those that are repaired independently by their owners.
I wonder what the fail rate for similarly made products on other lines is (not cars, or consumer electronics as those are made by machines in huge volumes; model railways are not).
Cheers,
Alan
I noticed in one of the posts someone said the valve gear gets broken because the owner puts the loco in the box on its side ..ALL the Locos come in a box from the manufacturer on their sides and are displayed on trade stands on their sides so I don't think that's the answer, but they are sometimes very difficult to remove from the box when new perhaps that's when they get damaged,even diesels are very tight and you have to resist the temptation to pull them out by the buffers or risk a broken one . I always take the foam out of the box to get my Locos out.
Bob
Steady, folks said that about pickups, not valve gear I think.
I'm not sure if it's true for pickups either.
Cheers,
Alan
Actually Al, I did say it about valve gear, but I wasn't thinking about the original boxes which are designed to protect the loco as much as possible. I was thinking more of some of the home made storage/transport solutions employed which don't offer that protection...
One former club member complained regularly about "the valve gear on the right hand sides of locos getting damaged" On examining his locos they all had green coloured fluff in the RH valve gear... We then noticed he brought his stick to the club in trays lined with green baize type material.. and he always packed them neatly laid on their sides, all facing to the left... :doh: :hmmm:
Quote from: Dr Al on October 17, 2014, 09:36:40 AM
Quote from: Karhedron on October 17, 2014, 09:11:01 AM
I can independently verify that the failure rate figures quoted are about right. A couple of years ago I contacted one of the major box shifters to enquire about their return rate for faulty locos. Both Darish and Dapol had a return rate of about 5% which is right in the middle of the range Alistair quotes.
Whilst this is undoubtedly true, and one fo the best sources of statistics on this, the failure rate will be a lot higher - it doen't consider those locos that are never run, or those that are not repaired, or those that are repaired independently by their owners.
I wonder what the fail rate for similarly made products on other lines is (not cars, or consumer electronics as those are made by machines in huge volumes; model railways are not).
Cheers,
Alan
Very true. One of the factors I mentioned to the Dapol rep at TINGS was that because their locos tend to have small production runs, that sell out quickly, a lot of us are hesitant to do the proper procedure of sending a dud loco back to the retailer for a replacement because we know there's a good chance there aren't any replacements available. Add in a few more percent for those of us who have no faith in the next one being any better and the failure rate goes up quite a bit.
Not that a 5% failure rate is any good in itself.
Quote from: Zwilnik on October 17, 2014, 02:01:42 PM
Not that a 5% failure rate is any good in itself.
True, by most industry standards that would be pretty dismal. However the recent spate of car recalls by Toyota show that even big players in a massive industry do not always get it right. At least a faulty miniature loco is not going to risk anyone's life.
However the real key is not the failure rate but whether customers can get a decent runner. This comes back to running in a loco thoroughly when first purchased and returning any duds for repair or replacement.
I respect anyone with the technical skills to get these locos working again but I think the rest of us need make it standard practice to test our purchases as soon as possible and return them early if we are not satisfied. I have a loop of Peco set track that I put on the table for this purpose.
Quote from: Karhedron on October 17, 2014, 02:18:11 PM
I respect anyone with the technical skills to get these locos working again but I think the rest of us need make it standard practice to test our purchases as soon as possible and return them early if we are not satisfied. I have a loop of Peco set track that I put on the table for this purpose.
I think this is a fair comment. I personally am happy to attack most problems myself, and it's an area of the hobby I enjoy a lot; though even then then there have been a couple that haven't been fixable, which required replacement.
Cheers,
Alan
An interesting read - thanks for that.
Apologies for going off topic a bit but there has been several mentions of poor storage methods causing problems.
Currently, all my locos (kettles & diesels) and rolling stock bar a few kits, are packed in their original inserts and boxes. Hopefully they'll be OK until they get to their new location but I'm a little worried that not all locos are stored upright which is suggested as the best method.
Perhaps there should be a new topic of best storage and handling practice for those new to the hobby?
I certainly wouldn't mind some advice on bringing my kit out of long-term (12 month +) storage.
Dave G
Quote from: daveg on October 17, 2014, 02:52:36 PM
I'm a little worried that not all locos are stored upright which is suggested as the best method.
All my locos that are boxed are stored in their original boxes and inserts lying flat, and have been in some cases for a decade (ok, they are in and out for a run at times too :-) :-) but spend more time stored than running). Unboxed stuff is stored upright in trays.
Neither has given me problems.
Cheers,
Alan
Quote from: daveg on October 17, 2014, 02:52:36 PM
I certainly wouldn't mind some advice on bringing my kit out of long-term (12 month +) storage.
Inspect them for any damage, fluff etc before running them, and then run them in as if they were new. If need be add a *tiny* amount of oil.
If it's Farish listen for clicks, and also check it isn't showing any tendency to jam changing directioin that might indicate split gears.
I wouldn't overdo it beyond basically running them in carefully and attended. You are more likely to do harm doing excess servicing IMHO.
Well for those hwho dont know, i spoke to joel and explained the situation, he told me to return the a3 to him and he will sort it out as he didnt sound too happy at how complicated swapping a traction tyre is.
So im about to try put her back together, dig her box out and pack her in.
Shame but hopefully it will get sorted and repaired without any cost apart from postage.
Paul
Good that they are willing to sort this all out for you...fingers crossed you get a reliable runner back!
Cheers Alan