What are some of the things I need to think about in buying a second hand layout?
Due to a long term health issue (which I don't want to go into here), I'm contemplating the thought of trying to buy a good, possible ex- exhibition, second hand layout. I've got space for a layout that fits in the space of, roughly, two doors end to end.
I'm quite happy to clean and refresh scenic materials. I've pondered the thought of point motors etc., needing replacing. My understanding is that a DC layout can, generally, be quickly converted to DCC just by throwing all circuit switches open (all my current locos are DCC).
Apart from eBay is there anywhere else I can keep an eye on for a possible candidate?
I've tried to ponder the pros and cons of buying second hand but this is new territory for me hence I need some advice from those who have greater wisdom on such matters than myself.
Many thanks in advance....
I bought a second hand layout, just a small one to keep me amused while I build my larger one!
First I'd suggest that you see the layout before you buy it. If it's very simple then photographs may do, but if it's more complex I suggest you see it in action before you commit to buy. Ask what problems need fixing or currently cause grief. All ex-exhibition layouts tend to suffer some running problems which the club members know how to work around and have never quite got around to fixing.
Source
I got mine from eBay. I've seen them for sale on RMWeb. I've seen private individuals approach clubs directly. I've seen a fair few standing at exhibitions with 'For sale' notices on them.
Dimensions
Ensure the boards can be erectedin your chosen location with room to move around the layout. Check that the boards break down small enough to get into that location. I had a fight to get mine upstairs. Think about how you will transport it - most sellers will require you to collect. I had to hire a small van.
Electrics
The just switch all switches on is fine for DCC providing all of the points have been isolated correctly. For DCC, points must have rail breaks on both V rails to avoid shorts.
Understand if and how the points are electrically operated. Is the control panel included, and a CDU if necessary? If you want to operate your points using DCC are decoders already in place, and if not how easy will it be to add them.
Cheers
Dave
The main tip is to make sure that the baseboard is straight and in good to excellent condition, the last thing you need is a warped baseboard !
Ask the seller where it was kept, best answer is 'inside the house' - any other answer could spell trouble...
I recenetly bought 'Black Sheep Lane' off of a fellow NGF member - it's a brilliant layout, but it's left me with very little to do it except run trains... My point is that if you buy a finished layout you may tire of it very quickly, i'd recommend buy a half finished layout with say the electrics and trackwork done so you can add your own flair to the scenery.
But i've started loads of layouts and finished none ( ::)) so i'm the least qualified to say really....!
All above is good advice. I'll add:
Be absolutely clear at an early stage of negotiations what is or isn't included (transformers, controllers, trestles/supports, lighting etc) and what if anything you will need to source to be up and running.
At least view and if possible try before handing over cash.
Ask for as much documentation as possible of the wiring. Some modelers have their own unique ways of doing things!
If it is an ex-exhibition layout, it will (hopefully) be designed for portability, but ask for a demostration of how to assemble it when you get home!
Sorry to hear about your health issue Jack.
I wish you well in your search for a model railway.
Martin
Quote from: DCCDave on August 29, 2014, 04:31:12 PM
For DCC, points must have rail breaks on both V rails to avoid shorts.
I don't believe this is necessary for Peco N gauge points, as the switch rail gap is so overscale that any wheel that will short across it is so out of spec that it's probably going to derail first. It may be necessary with other makes of point or with other gauges that we don't talk about on here!
However it would be a good idea to check if the point frogs are separately wired and polarity switched as the electrical contact of the point blades isn't always so good. Also check the points work reliably back and forth whether motorised or hand-operated, as these can sometimes get sticky.
Also check the clearances on any platforms against your widest item of rolling stock. Some steam locos and the Farish 08 are a lot wider than their prototypes at platform level, and if the previous owner hasn't got any of these he may not have left enough clearance. Easing the clearances should be possible but could be messy, depending how much you like the scenery round the station!
Quote from: edwin_m on August 30, 2014, 12:50:33 AM
I don't believe this is necessary for Peco N gauge points, as the switch rail gap is so overscale that any wheel that will short across it is so out of spec that it's probably going to derail first. It may be necessary with other makes of point or with other gauges that we don't talk about on here!
I agree, but was referring to having IRJs or gaps at the ends of the V rails to ensure shorts are avoided.
I could have been clearer!
Cheers
Dave
You need those IRJs at the 'V rails' in DC as well, if you're wiring up to the instructions included with the point...
You need them to avoid short circuits on both DC and DCC, with some exceptions such as if the point leads to a dead end siding. However, if the points are used to switch power to sidings as often happens on DC layouts, then on DCC any lights or sound on locos parked in those sidings will be lost when the point is set against them.
Also check that the wiring to the track feeds doesn't use stupidly thin wire, or even check its resistance which should be less than about one ohm from the controller to the furthest bit of track and back again. Particularly on a larger layout, long feeds in thin wire may mean that DCC power won't cut out if there is a short circuit.
Hi Jack
Good luck in your search for the suitable layout. I cannot really add to what others have said, since it's all good advice.
I'll shamelessly let you know that I have a ten foot long ex-exhibition layout currently sitting doing nothing. Bought it a few years ago with the intention to ship it overseas but that never happened. Had a shelf layout shipped out instead.
It's called Haffaton - it's a mainline on a viaduct with a lower level modern day cement works and a preservation line.
PM me if you would like any pics. It's a masterpiece and the niggles which need repairing are minor (a few points). No pressure to buy of course - just when you mentioned "two door lengths" I thought it could be up your street.
Not looking to make a profit on it.
Dan
One thing I'd add Jack is not only try to see the layouts you might consider buying, but try to see them running.
Probably goes without saying. I took a huge gamble with Haffaton as I bought it without seeing it. I wasn't disappointed but I think I was lucky. What reassured me is that it was built by an MRC, but that's no guarantee.
We wouldn't buy a secondhand car without looking at it / test driving it first (well, most of us) so why not apply the same rules to a model railway.
Be as careful and picky to the point that your patience will allow. Decide what's important for you operationally, perhaps era, what you can and cannot fix (or are willing to fix) etc etc.
Remember, if there's something niggling and you decide a particular layout just doesn't meet your criteria then don't buy it, better to wait until something else comes along. No point buying something and being stuck with it.
Sorry if that's all obvious and common sense.
Cheers
Dan
Many thanks for all your responses.
From correctly isolated dead end track (DC) to thin wires and even platform clearance for a Gronk, you've added items to the "Check List" of items for any potential second hand layout.
:beers: all round.
A further question if I may.
At what point or age of a second hand exhibition layout would I need to consider a complete rewire?
I've noticed on one or two layouts that I've looked at they have used a good deal of multicore single strand communication wire, the type BT might use. My understanding is that this type of wiring isn't suitable for DCC, and maybe suspect for point motors, am I right in my understanding? If not can someone re educate me please.
Check out Brian Lambert's website, much detail on wires.
IIRC , BT and doorbell type wires not suitable for wiring
layouts.
Quote from: Agrippa on August 31, 2014, 02:13:18 PM
Check out Brian Lambert's website, much detail on wires.
IIRC , BT and doorbell type wires not suitable for wiring
layouts.
I've now established that the minimum wiring should be 7/0.2 (1.4 amps) but ideally 16/0.2 (at least 3 amp) and maybe larger depending on the layout size. Point motor wiring ideally needs to be 16/0.2 according to Brian Lambert.
Is there an age factor with the wiring when it may need to be replaced on a second hand exhibition layout?
Quote from: Jack on August 31, 2014, 01:55:49 PM
I've noticed on one or two layouts that I've looked at they have used a good deal of multicore single strand communication wire, the type BT might use. My understanding is that this type of wiring isn't suitable for DCC, and maybe suspect for point motors, am I right in my understanding? If not can someone re educate me please.
It's not that telephone wire is unsuitable for DCC (or DC for that matter) in a purely electrical sense, it's more to do with the fact it breaks easily with little movement, causing much fault-finding when something suddenly doesn't work ;)
Paul
Quote from: Jack on August 31, 2014, 01:55:49 PM
At what point or age of a second hand exhibition layout would I need to consider a complete rewire?
If it was wired properly, with suitable materials and components in the first place then never...
Quote from: Sprintex on August 31, 2014, 07:09:19 PM
It's not that telephone wire is unsuitable for DCC (or DC for that matter) in a purely electrical sense, it's more to do with the fact it breaks easily with little movement, causing much fault-finding when something suddenly doesn't work ;)
Telephone wire is a prime candidate for causing the resistance and voltage drop problems I mentioned in my previous post. And all single-strand wires are only really for use in static installations - be cautious if any are being used as trailing cables or otherwise not firmly fixed down. There's a reason "flex" is always composed of many small strands.
Quote from: Jack on August 31, 2014, 07:04:28 PM
Is there an age factor with the wiring when it may need to be replaced on a second hand exhibition layout?
I think, speaking personally, that should read "Is there an age factor with the layout when the owner may need replacing?" :-[
I agree >:D
Paul
Quote from: newportnobby on August 31, 2014, 09:37:45 PM
Quote from: Jack on August 31, 2014, 07:04:28 PM
Is there an age factor with the wiring when it may need to be replaced on a second hand exhibition layout?
I think, speaking personally, that should read "Is there an age factor with the layout when the owner may need replacing?" :-[
My good lady sometimes wishes I could be replaced! :-[