Hi I have been looking into buying S/H Railway Items on that well know internet site. And I really don't understand why the prices are so high, I tried to but kato turnouts and they are fetching silly money £12 to £13 including postage. When you can buy the same new for around £15 to £16 thats only saving around £2 so why do they pay so much for a used Item. :o :goggleeyes: Rolling stock seems to be the same, coaches, wagons,all close to the new buying price. :no: Well I am sure there maybe some bargains out there, but not when I am bidding :censored:
You can find bargains you just need to be patient,I have got some as new loco's at around 1/2 price. :thumbsup:
If s/h goods are near new prices don 't bid, better to buy from a well known dealer.
With Kato stuff buy from a reputable dealer like Traintrax or Osborns. For a small
increase in price you're guaranteed better service , with someone you can talk to
if a problem arises.
Quote from: Agrippa on August 20, 2014, 12:19:16 AM
If s/h goods are near new prices don 't bid, better to buy from a well known dealer.
With Kato stuff buy from a reputable dealer like Traintrax or Osborns. For a small
increase in price you're guaranteed better service , with someone you can talk to
if a problem arises.
Sorry did not make myself clear the starting bids are started quite low, I placed what I thought is a fair price factoring in postage costs as well. But still the items go way too high as far as I am concerned. Maybe with Locomotives its different if say they are hard to find. I am not that experienced yet :-[ :-[ :D
Some sellers seem to be getting greedy, I have even seen discontinued 2nd hand items in model railway shops at higher prices than the original purchase price.
When items are auctioned I believe some sellers use artificial bids to try and get the price higher.
You just have to be careful and know when to say no.
Dodger
I have noticed this as well in RC modelling items. I suspect it is due to people getting into a bidding frenzy. And that wonderful competitive spirit which is so popular at the moment
I am a bit wary about buying locos, I've heard people saying 'It doesn't run very well so I think I'll flog it on eBay'
I know you can get refunds and send things back but it's a bit of a nuisance. Having said that, most of my eBay purchases have turned out well.
Yeah that is a common theme of offloading troublesome locos onto someone else. There are also enough posts about brand new loco with issues, without buying secondhand with no redress on the manufacturer.
I too watched the bidding sites and was amazed at the prices people supposedly pay, unless they never turn up to pay in the end.
It makes me smile when I 'watch' some items, especially ones with ridiculous postage charges. The bidding ends up with 'as new' prices and then they get hammered for postage as well.
Maybe we need to let Darwin have a bit more free reign with his theory :wave:
My personal theory is that many folks have the attitude "if it's on EBay it has to be a bargain" and this is almost certainly true if it's 'the other half' buying something for their nearest and dearest without a clue as to the current retail price/knowledge of the item concerned. I can count my purchases from Fleabay on the fingers of one hand giving a Churchillian gesture.
As others have said, check all the well known on line model shops for price, factor in the seller's postage charges and if it comes within 25% of the shop price! forget it. It's not worth the risk.
At an auction, the 'value' of any item is slightly more than the second richest (or silliest) person is willing to pay...
It sounds like you have done your research; you know what the items are worth to you. Clearly others bidders haven't...
Just put in a bid of what it's worth to you. If you win it, great. If not, so be it... Let it go and move on in the knowledge you haven't overpaid. You havent really 'lost' anything...
Quote from: Malc on August 20, 2014, 10:43:43 AM
As others have said, check all the well known on line model shops for price, factor in the seller's postage charges and if it comes within 25% of the shop price! forget it. It's not worth the risk.
Exactly what I do, I have just bought a Late GF class 31 (Sister Dora), DCC fitted for £65. I want a 31 in triple grey construction livery so require:
Base model
Chip
Digi gubbins
Paint/Transfers/details
The base model I have been offered by a friend for £45 so factored in a chip and digi gubbins, another £20 plus postage for the relevant items, makes it roughly £70, I bid a few pence over £65 and let the auction run. I still need to buy the paint/transfers etc but that would have been the case anyway...
Bargain in my eyes as it saves me an hour or so of my limited modelling time fitting a chip...
I agree the prices some stuff fetches is ludicrous.
I was watching some HHA hoppers a few months back and the seller had left the price labels on the boxes, clearly a few years old, but still. They started going for more than he'd paid for them (something like £18 each if I recall), I backed out on principle. Ok you can't get them for that now, but it was annoying that I knew he was profiting!
It's a stark contrast to cycling, my other main hobby, where you're lucky to recoup half your cost even if you've not used the product!
Kato points do usually demand a high price but if you are patient you can find bargains on eBay. If you do a search for what you are after, eBay gives you the opportunity to save that search and will send you an email when any appear for sale. This way it saves you a lot of time and any that do pop up you can add to your watch list to keep a check on what they are going for. I always check what price they are new from Train Trax and if they get close to the new price I let those ones pass. Getting bargains from eBay does require patience ;)
cheers John.
Quote from: PLD on August 20, 2014, 10:59:26 AM
At an auction, the 'value' of any item is slightly more than the second richest (or silliest) person is willing to pay...
It sounds like you have done your research; you know what the items are worth to you. Clearly others bidders haven't...
Just put in a bid of what it's worth to you. If you win it, great. If not, so be it... Let it go and move on in the knowledge you haven't overpaid. You havent really 'lost' anything...
That's very sound advice. I agree with every thing you say :)
Quote from: Malc on August 20, 2014, 10:43:43 AM
As others have said, check all the well known on line model shops for price, factor in the seller's postage charges and if it comes within 25% of the shop price! forget it. It's not worth the risk.
But what do you do if you cannot find out the new price. Because either the model is out of stock or discontinued from well known on line model shops. Then it comes down to your experience and knowledge on the subject. Something I don't have at the moment. :confused1: :doh: :D
An example I am looking for this model Dapol A1X Terrier Southern 2662 ND-100C in Green. I found one on ebay with 3 SR Suburban Coaches at £75 buy it now but as I do not have the experience, and could not find the cost of one new I did not go for it. Not sure if it was a bargain or not.
Now I know one of you will come back and say there are new ones available and here the link. ::) or somthing along those lines. :worried: :D
I think a terrier is about £55 new, so even with the 3 SR coaches at £75 (plus post? ) I don't think
it would be a bargain unless the loco was in very good condition and a good runner.
I think it would be better to buy the loco new and get coaches off Ebay, the only thing with coaches
are the buffers, couplings and bogies being intact, and the general appearance. Even coaches are often
going for the same price as new so unless it was a discontinued item you're as well buying from a shop
in many cases.
Quote from: njee20 on August 20, 2014, 11:08:23 AM
I was watching some HHA hoppers a few months back and the seller had left the price labels on the boxes, clearly a few years old, but still. They started going for more than he'd paid for them (something like £18 each if I recall), I backed out on principle. Ok you can't get them for that now, but it was annoying that I knew he was profiting!
He wasn't profiteering in a bad way. That implies demanding an unfairly high price for an essential item. In this case it's simple capitalism, which let us not forget has brought more good to the world than any other form of economics (which isn't to say it doesn't have flaws, it does, but far less harmful ones than all the alternatives so far devised by Man).
If someone has some wagons no longer produced, and this person wants to sell his, then the free market decides if his price is fair. No-one holds a gun to your head and says he'll pull the trigger if you don't run a full rake of HHA hoppers behind that diesel train of yours! But if you want to run such a train, to the degree you'll pay a premium for the ability to do so, then that's a fair trade. The price of something isn't what it was sold for 5 years ago, but what the market is willing to pay for it now.
For what it's worth, I love shopping for secondhand train stuff. But probably like you, I'm very price conscious. Most of the secondhand traders at the model shows I've been to stock very old stuff at far above the price I'm willing to pay. But presumably others think these traders are worth patronising and feel they're getting bargains.
On the other hand Hattons come in for a lot of stick as secondhand traders. But Hattons gets quite a lot of trade from me because they're selling nearly new stuff, albeit at 75-80% of the price when new. But if I can get a rake of Dogfish wagons for £8 a pop from Hattons, I think that's fair. To me they're sufficiently rare and attractive models that I'm willing to pay what others see as over-the-top prices. Each to their own!
Cheers, NeMo
Yeah, no one forces you to bid on Ebay, and the idea of sellers being greedy doesn't
fit in with an auction. Even if shill bidding is taking place you're not compelled to
bid ever higher amounts for something.
A few years ago when Ebay was in its infancy there were stories of amazing
bargains, but I think that time has passed.
Speaking of bargains last month I got a little Fleischmann 0-4-0 tank from a foreign seller
for about £20 + post, described as a bit erratic when running, but this was caused by
on of the tiny con rods being misaligned, easy fixed and runs perfectly now.
First time I had bought from abroad, but I took a chance due to the low bidding.
QuoteHe wasn't profiteering in a bad way.
No no, wasn't insinuating he was, they'd started at a very reasonable price, after that it's purely the buying public inflating the price! Unless there's shill bidding, but that's a different argument! It was just a mental thing for me that the second hand value had exceeded that of the new price, which was time for me to back out!
Put your pitchforks away, I didn't call him greedy or saying he was trying to rip anyone off or anything! :-\
It was a comment that in a comparatively short space of time the second hand value of an item had surpassed its previous new cost, and quite frankly, got within a hair's breadth of the current new cost.
I usually watch items I'm interested in until such time that they go above the price I'm prepared to pay, I then delete from watching, if they are still below "my price" at the end of the auction then I prepare a bid for what I want to pay, but don't hit the buy button until 30 seconds before the end, sometimes I win sometimes a higher bid has already been posted (at least that the seller gets a better price than if I had not bid).
Maybe if I used Ebay more often I sometimes wonder if I would consider sniping software but I suspect that takes away some of the fun of bidding.
Yes whilst it's frustrating to lose to sniping software I'd not want to use it, it's all part of the fun!
Quote from: Only Me on August 20, 2014, 02:47:03 PM
Bidding at five seconds before the end usually outwits most sniping software..
Maybe, but you need a good fast connection, and sometimes the wait for the "Confirm" window to come up can streeeeeeeeeeeeeeeetch.
If you put goods for sale on Ebay you obviously want the bids to go as high as possible up to closure
so it's not profiteering, its just market forces. If someone wants to pay over the odds for used stuff
which costs the same as new that's up to them. The point is that if someone pays a high price the seller
isn't being greedy or a rip off merchant, he's just doing a good deal. If goods are offered at preposterous
prices they won't sell, although there is always the exception.
Quote from: Only Me on August 20, 2014, 02:47:03 PM
Bidding at five seconds before the end usually outwits most sniping software..
Except most sniping software is set to bid in the last few seconds...
When I started out with N Gauge about 5 years ago, items were selling at reasonable prices but in the last two years I have bought virtually nothing as prices are so high.
Someone mentioned being patient, quite a few years ago I waited 9 months to get a Minitrix Sir Nigel Gresley for a reasonable price. It was like being pregnant worth it in the end. :D
There was a thread on eBay tips a while back, there are defiantly more bargains to be had on items finishing mid week during the day. I agree that some prices are getting silly though, I've fancied getting a Rivarossi Big Boy but they all end north of £200 even when in questionable condition.
Quote from: Only Me on August 20, 2014, 04:14:10 PM
Quote from: njee20 on August 20, 2014, 03:38:34 PM
Quote from: Only Me on August 20, 2014, 02:47:03 PM
Bidding at five seconds before the end usually outwits most sniping software..
Except most sniping software is set to bid in the last few seconds...
Exactly!! Hence my post... If you click confirm bid with 5 seconds to go by the time ebay registers the click there is probably less than two seconds to go, not giving sniping software a chance to update and rebid before EOA.... I have never been sniped using this method......
Then you're just putting a higher bid than any of the snipers have.
Quote from: njee20 on August 20, 2014, 04:35:29 PM
Quote from: Only Me on August 20, 2014, 04:14:10 PM
Quote from: njee20 on August 20, 2014, 03:38:34 PM
Quote from: Only Me on August 20, 2014, 02:47:03 PM
Bidding at five seconds before the end usually outwits most sniping software..
Except most sniping software is set to bid in the last few seconds...
Exactly!! Hence my post... If you click confirm bid with 5 seconds to go by the time ebay registers the click there is probably less than two seconds to go, not giving sniping software a chance to update and rebid before EOA.... I have never been sniped using this method......
Then you're just putting a higher bid than any of the snipers have.
Isn't this sort of missing the point? Auctions work in the seller's favour if you aim to win. Auctions work in the buyer's favour if you choose a maximum price you'll pay for a given item. If you think that Dapol Mk 3 coach is worth £15 and not a penny more, then that's the bid you enter. eBay automatically makes incremental bids on your behalf. If someone else thinks its worth £15.50, then they'll win if that's their maximum bid. In which case, you haven't lost, you simply don't think the item is worth that much.
I know there are all kinds of theories about bidding odd numbers (like £15.32) instead of nice round ones, but at the end of the day, you should still discipline yourself to bid no higher than you think the item is worth. People aiming to win at all costs are the ones eBay makes the most from!
Cheers, NeMo
Absolutely, but my point was that you can't 'beat' a sniper by going in the last few seconds. If a sniped bid has already gone in (because it bid at 30 seconds say), either you'll get instantly outbid, or you'll win if your bid was higher than the sniped bid.
The advantage to bidding with 5 seconds to go (or sniping) is that people don't get a chance to see what you've bid and choose to up their maximum bid, so as long as you put in exactly what you're prepared to spend then you're sorted. Bidding with 30 seconds to go potentially gives you a chance to have a second bite if you're so inclined, but as said, that's when it can get a bit daft.
You won't beat the computers, as they can place bids in nanoseconds.
I don't understand why people worry about sellers on auctions 'profiteering'. Why should it matter to you?
For example imagine a seller auctions three locos that would cost you £100 each to buy new. You bid £200 for the set of three and win, thereby saving yourself £100. Why would it matter if the seller only paid £3.50 for them? You bid what you were wiling to pay, saved yourself a wedge of money, and the seller made a huge profit. Who lost out there? As far as I can see everybody won, yet there are till peple unhappy with sellers making profits.
I buy and sell lots of stuff on eBay. I rarely make a loss on them, because I pay less than I think they are worth and sell for as much as I can get away with. If the buyer is at ll unhappy they get a refund, and I sell it again. The profits go on things I've bought which I'd like to keep.
50% of my rolling stock came from eBay.
Just my two penneth
Cheers
Dave
I totally agree. I have no issue with the sellers that put things up for big money, if someone is prepared to pay that price then that is the deal.
What I do like to do is watch what items when I know full well that the exact same item can be bought from a local retailer where you can check it over before you pay for it.
Maybe it's me but I do wonder at the psychology of it all. What goes through peoples minds especially when Google tracks your searches and pops you adverts of the things you are looking for and they still pay over the odds.
some people feel they have to win. it's amazing how logic departs in the last few seconds.
as said previously patience is your friend, for example i needed a GBRF spine wagon to complete a rake of 7, these can go up to £30 with or without the coupling bars that go missing, watched a few go for silly money but i always bid up to the point i think is reasonably valued. Eventually one came up with a poorly entered description, finishing at midday on a Wednesday and it was mine for a reasonable sum.
the ebay search engines that look for typo's,incorrect attributes applied (ie scale) are worth investigating, i used to win a lot back in the day by doing this manually but no it can be automated and although easier more are doing it
Whoooooo :claphappy: Certainly opened a can of worms when I started this thread :D :D :D I only wanted to find out what would be a fair bid in % of a new priced Item. Would it be 1/2 price 2/3rds or what.
You bid the lowest amount you can , say £1 , and wait for other bidders to join in
and you will see if you have been outbid. There's no point in bidding a high
amount to start off because if you are the only bidder you'll pay over the odds
when the auction ends.
Quote from: Agrippa on August 21, 2014, 01:13:34 AM
There's no point in bidding a high
amount to start off because if you are the only bidder you'll pay over the odds
when the auction ends.
No you won't :no:
If the starting price is 99p it doesn't matter if you bid £1 or £10,000, if you're the only bidder when it ends you'll still only pay 99p ;)
Paul
Quote from: UPINSMOKE on August 20, 2014, 10:51:13 PM
Whoooooo :claphappy: Certainly opened a can of worms when I started this thread :D :D :D I only wanted to find out what would be a fair bid in % of a new priced Item. Would it be 1/2 price 2/3rds or what.
Yeah this subject always brings a lot of emotion. I am sure if I searched I could find similar thread that goes on for pages :no:
So what are going to choose to fire up next ? :bounce:
Any criticism of the Blue Pullman would do it with me >:D ;)
Quote from: Agrippa on August 21, 2014, 01:13:34 AM
You bid the lowest amount you can , say £1 , and wait for other bidders to join in
and you will see if you have been outbid. There's no point in bidding a high
amount to start off because if you are the only bidder you'll pay over the odds
when the auction ends.
Absolutely not. At least on eBay bids go up in specific increments (http://pages.ebay.co.uk/help/buy/bid-increments.html) up to your maximum bid. So for example, between £5.00 - £14.99 and the bid increments are 50p.
That's why I said earlier the rational thing to do is simply decide the maximum you're willing to pay for that item.
There's no need for gamesmanship like sniping unless your aim is to win rather than to get the item for the price you deem appropriate.
So if you think a Farish brake van is worth at most £5, then you bid that maximum amount, and eBay will automatically make bids (in this case, 5p up to £0.99 and 20p bids up to £4.99) until your maximum bid is reached.
Now, eBay might encourage you (http://www.ebay.co.uk/gds/FOR-BUYERS-BID-IN-ODD-NUMBERS-/10000000001866936/g.html) to bid an odd amount in this case, like £5.25, rather than exactly £5 because people tend to enter "round number" maximum bids, so if someone else thinks £5 is a fair price and uses that as a maximum bid, then your £5.25 maximum will win. But you can immediately see the catch here: eBay sellers benefit by this approach because you've actually increased your maximum bid above what you actually deemed a fair price. You've actually made a less rational move in return for a better chance of winning -- in other words, the auction is now a competition rather than a way to obtain an item at a fair price.
Cheers, NeMo
Quote from: NeMo on August 21, 2014, 07:50:13 AM
Quote from: Agrippa on August 21, 2014, 01:13:34 AM
You bid the lowest amount you can , say £1 , and wait for other bidders to join in
and you will see if you have been outbid. There's no point in bidding a high
amount to start off because if you are the only bidder you'll pay over the odds
when the auction ends.
Absolutely not. At least on eBay bids go up in specific increments (http://pages.ebay.co.uk/help/buy/bid-increments.html) up to your maximum bid. So for example, between £5.00 - £14.99 and the bid increments are 50p.
That's why I said earlier the rational thing to do is simply decide the maximum you're willing to pay for that item. There's no need for gamesmanship like sniping unless your aim is to win rather than to get the item for the price you deem appropriate.
So if you think a Farish brake van is worth at most £5, then you bid that maximum amount, and eBay will automatically make bids (in this case, 5p up to £0.99 and 20p bids up to £4.99) until your maximum bid is reached.
Now, eBay might encourage you (http://www.ebay.co.uk/gds/FOR-BUYERS-BID-IN-ODD-NUMBERS-/10000000001866936/g.html) to bid an odd amount in this case, like £5.25, rather than exactly £5 because people tend to enter "round number" maximum bids, so if someone else thinks £5 is a fair price and uses that as a maximum bid, then your £5.25 maximum will win. But you can immediately see the catch here: eBay sellers benefit by this approach because you've actually increased your maximum bid above what you actually deemed a fair price. You've actually made a less rational move in return for a better chance of winning -- in other words, the auction is now a competition rather than a way to obtain an item at a fair price.
Cheers, NeMo
you are right and wrong.
in your example if you bid max of £5 and someone else later says a maximum of £5 then you will win as your bid was in first when an equivalent auction value is reached. If they have valued it higher and put in £5.25 then they value it more than you and win.
where you are right is around the round numbers then it is a slight advantage to bid an increment over the round number if as you say the goal is to win not to pay your best price
I tend to decide what something is worth TO ME, deduct p&p and then make that my max bid.
then wait for it to finish.
don't get involved in bidding wars, seen things go for more than you can get them new from Liverpool :)
just my view
Quote from: class37025 on August 21, 2014, 08:19:15 PM
don't get involved in bidding wars, seen things go for more than you can get them new from Liverpool :)
That's absolutely the key, do a bit of research and don't pay more than you can get it for elsewhere.
I sold a whole batch of Seep PM2 point motors at £1.50 each more than you could buy them new. Nuts!!
Cheers
Dave
I've found a rule regarding eBay auctions-
If I'm buying the item will nearly always go for more than I think it is worth.
If I'm selling the item will nearly always make a lot LESS than I think it is worth..........
Fallacy somewhere, I fancy.
All the very best
Les
Quote from: Les1952 on August 24, 2014, 09:53:16 AM
I've found a rule regarding eBay auctions-
If I'm buying the item will nearly always go for more than I think it is worth.
If I'm selling the item will nearly always make a lot LESS than I think it is worth..........
All the very best
Les
I think we should call that
Les' eBay Paradox.
Cheers, NeMo
I think that over the top prices can stem from having sold an item yourself for much more than you ever anticipated. This can make you feel artificially cash rich in your paypal account so you may subsequently bid over the top. If you are joined by 1 or 2 more in the same position this can add to the bidding frenzy.
I reckon that many are clearing out oddments these days compared to a couple of years back. As prices of new rise as we have seen with Bachfar some will be inclined to hang on to what they have. I have re-evaluated what I have as I do not have an endless supply of cash to play trains. If I can make do or modify then this will happen. On a supply and demand basis this could mean that prices for secondhand on ebay rise. Ebay is a constant source of entertainment when I see OTT prices being paid compared to what certain items can be bought for brand new. It is an auction site which I have both bought and sold on a lot. It must surely have affected attendances at swop-meets?
Second hand prices on ebay are rising because of the epidemic of fixed price listings which now are the majority of listings. The prices are rarely cheap....in many cases more for an old tool secondhand model than we were paying for a new tool equivalent only a few years ago.
Cheers,
Alan
Dr Al, You are right about the prices.
I have some Langley County bodies to make up that have sat in a drawer for a long while. They utilise the old farish Hall chassis which seem to be going for quite a bit compared to the cost of newer and much more detailed/refined stuff. Are people actively collecting the old Farish stuff or is it a case of people putting a high buy it now price on things?
You can upgrade the County body by using items from N brass, but the cost of these plus what seems to me the somewhat inflated cost of a Hall chassis pushes up the cost of completing a white metal County. There was some postings recently about the future of white metal kits. I'm also conscious of the situation where once you start a project such as this somebody often announces a RTR version.
Having produced a RTR Manor a County could seem a viable model in RTR. What to do?!
Personally (and I don't mind sharing this as I don't bid on N ::)), unless the item is put in at an extremely attractive BIN or is something I really really want (not so much these days), I tend to flag it to my Watch List & keep an eye on it. If the price is still within my limit in the last 15 mins, I'll place my maximum in there and get the first stage of the bid in - but hold on "Confirm" until the last 10 seconds or so.
OK, sniping software may come in & go above me; oh well. Ditto a real person trying the same. But it has to be something exceptional for me to break my limit ...
As to the debate on sniping (not the morals, thank God ! Yet, anyway >:D), those saying "computers always win" need to remember that while automated systems are indeed fast - there are more factors in play. How often do they "spam" eBay for updates ? How long is the time from eBay responding to that request to it being received ? How long to process the price & determine whether a new bid is to be made ? How long to send that new bid and then confirm it ? All you need is a few seconds delay in there somewhere (and it does happen - to automated systems as well as to us) and the snipe may well fail if the person defining it was too strict on the time (eg last 3 seconds).
Getting back to topic ( :sorrysign:) ... one item I use on trains (as opposed to infrastructure) is Ramsay's Guide. No it's not perfect, but it does give a good indication.
Mike