Having just obtained a second Era 5 TPO (374-901A) from TMC is started me looking at the formation of TPO trains again. I know from previous threads both here and elsewhere that the number and type of carriage used depended both on the route and to some extent availability.
What I was wondering about was the order in which these carriages were normally assembled.
Were the sorting vans at the front followed by BGs and maybe a BSK at the rear for staff on the longer journeys or were the sorting vans sandwiched between BGs with a BSO somewhere in the rake?
Would a rake of BG TPO TPO SO BG be anything like prototypical?
Also where do CCTs come in?
Unfortunately the excellent Ian Allen book "Travelling Post Office" by Peter Johnson doesn't give me the answers. Although the few photos of complete trains seem to have the TPO at the front I can't work out what the other carriages are due to my lack of knowledge.
Therefore any comments, suggestions and pointers to reference work most welcome.
Ray
Have a look at this thread where it has been discussed before http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=5788.msg139349#msg139349 (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=5788.msg139349#msg139349) :thumbsup:
Thanks Caz, I have read that thread and was vainly hoping that since then someone may have "stumbled" across more info.
Will keep digging and see if I can come up with anything worthwhile will post if I do.
Ray
http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/44975-tpo-and-parcel-trains/ (http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/44975-tpo-and-parcel-trains/)
d-a-n thanks for the link, it's a very interesting thread, but I am still searching.
Ray
I have copies of two articles that may be of help ...
One from Rail Express (March 2011) showing some sample TPO formations for dates from 1986 to 1996.
The second from Modern Railway Modelling (Spring 2005) showing some sample TPO formations for dates from 1993 to 2003.
Would they be of any use or do you have them already ?
From Xpress Publishing's Operation Cornwall, the 1957 22:10 TPO Paddington to Penzance was arranged as...
Siphon G,
Stowage Brake,
Stowage Van,
3xTPO,
BG
... with 4 more Siphon Gs at the tail dropped off one by one enroute.
One approach, if you're making up your own TPO working, is to think about the work flow on a TPO. Generally, and so far as I can recall (having had some responsibility for the operation of the Peterborough - Crewe and Peterborough - Ipswich TPOs in the 1980's), the TPO/sorting carriage needs to be close to a supply of unsorted first class mail, and have somewhere to stow the sorted mail. So although two sorting coaches might be placed next to each other, they'll need gangway access to stowage vehicles, and no-one wants to carry a full mail bag any further than necessary.
Other vehicles without gangway access, or non Post Office vehicles, might be attached to the ends of the train to convey second class mail (which won't be sorted on the move) and parcels (ditto), although by the 1980's Royal Mail parcels operated to a separate network using GUVs and BGs etc. Royal Mail Parcels moved off rail and onto road before Royal Mail Letters, of course.
By the 1980's, I'm fairly sure that the TPOs didn't convey passenger accommodation any more, although newspaper trains did, and vehicles conveying Royal Mail traffic did get attached to passenger trains. This was sometimes problematic as most parcels (NPCCS) vehicles were still vacuum braked whereas all passenger trains were air braked.
Edit: by not conveying passenger accommodation, I'm referring to public/fare paying passengers rather than conveying a BSK for staff use.
Quote from: koyli55002 on July 11, 2014, 06:00:48 AM
I have copies of two articles that may be of help ...
One from Rail Express (March 2011) showing some sample TPO formations for dates from 1986 to 1996.
The second from Modern Railway Modelling (Spring 2005) showing some sample TPO formations for dates from 1993 to 2003.
Would they be of any use or do you have them already ?
Thanks for the info, I don't have copies of those articles.
Will try and source back copies.
Ray
Quote from: GScaleBruce on July 11, 2014, 10:23:04 AM
One approach, if you're making up your own TPO working, is to think about the work flow on a TPO. Generally, and so far as I can recall (having had some responsibility for the operation of the Peterborough - Crewe and Peterborough - Ipswich TPOs in the 1980's), the TPO/sorting carriage needs to be close to a supply of unsorted first class mail, and have somewhere to stow the sorted mail. So although two sorting coaches might be placed next to each other, they'll need gangway access to stowage vehicles, and no-one wants to carry a full mail bag any further than necessary
I was wondering if there was some sort of workflow arrangment whereby the unsorted mail was in a BG one side often sorting van(s) and once sorted was moved onto a BG on the other side of them.
Ray
Quote from: REGP on July 11, 2014, 11:11:08 AM
I was wondering if there was some sort of workflow arrangment whereby the unsorted mail was in a BG one side often sorting van(s) and once sorted was moved onto a BG on the other side of them.
Ray
In principle yes, but TBH, that's more detail than I can remember! I have a copy of the 1988 Royal Mail TPO booklet, so I'll see what it says! The mail was loaded pre-sorted by the sorting office for which it was destined (fairly obviously you only load mail onto a train if the mail needs to head in that direction). To that extent, the process is the same whether the mail is going by road or rail. Second class mail wasn't sorted on the move and would be dealt with by the receiving sorting office during the day after arrival. First class mail sent on the TPOs would be sorted on the TPO from primary destination down to delivery office or even walk level. That second tier sort was done while the mail was in transit instead of on arrival at the sorting office (which is what happens now) and meant the first class mail could be delivered the following morning. You start with a lot of unsorted mail but you wouldn't need to store all of it after sorting for the whole journey because the sorted mail would get dropped off along the way. I recall travelling on the Peterborough - Crewe TPO one night and by the time we reached Crewe there was very little mail left on board as we'd dropped it off on the way.
Thanks for the extra info GScaleBruce
It all helps understand how things actually worked.
Ray
robbies rolling stock lists TPO transfers for full sides .
alan
Also, if you run 2 TPO's in the same rake, then one has to be the other way round, I.E. the old mail bag catcher doors on opposite sides, if that makes sense.
Cheers
Neal.
Quote from: Calnefoxile on July 11, 2014, 07:14:29 PM
Also, if you run 2 TPO's in the same rake, then one has to be the other way round, I.E. the old mail bag catcher doors on opposite sides, if that makes sense.
Cheers
Neal.
Interesting Neal but why?
Ray
Quote from: REGP on July 11, 2014, 07:27:53 PM
Quote from: Calnefoxile on July 11, 2014, 07:14:29 PM
Also, if you run 2 TPO's in the same rake, then one has to be the other way round, I.E. the old mail bag catcher doors on opposite sides, if that makes sense.
Cheers
Neal.
Interesting Neal but why?
Ray
AFAIK just in case they had to run wrong line into platforms, or so I'm led to believe.
Regards
Neal.
Thanks Neal, that does make sense.
Ray
REGP...if you have no luck getting back copies then drop me a line and I will scan the ones I have.
koyli
Thanks for the offer, if I don't have any luck I'll give you a PM.
Ray
If it's of any help, I have the train formation tables for scottish region east for 0964 to 03/65.
The Aberdeen to Carstairs postal is formed thus:
POS POS POT POT BG SK CK SK BSK CK BSK
At Perth, the POS POS POT POT BG portion detached and sped off at a rate of knots to join with the postal train from Glasgow at Carstairs. The remaining coaches then continued on to Glasgow under different motive power.
Coming back, at Carstairs to Aberdeen postal looked like this:
POS POS POT POT until, at Stirling, the following were attached BSK CK BG BG
The final BG was detached at Perth, the remainder continuing to Aberdeen.
Thanks Scotty, that's all useful info.
Sight of some of those formation tables would not only be most interesting but very useful, if they are intelligibly to a layman that is. If that,s possible can you give me a PM please,
I wonder if the passenger coaches with a BSK in the middle that headed to Glasgow split again somewhere else?
Regards
Ray
Quote from: REGP on July 13, 2014, 08:46:00 PM
Thanks Scotty, that's all useful info.
Sight of some of those formation tables would not only be most interesting but very useful, if they are intelligibly to a layman that is. If that,s possible can you give me a PM please,
I wonder if the passenger coaches with a BSK in the middle that headed to Glasgow split again somewhere else?
Regards
Ray
As far as I'm aware, not in this case, the whole passenger portion went on to Buchanan Street.
I was at my Dads and went through his books 'Mail by Rail' and 'The British Travelling Post Office' by Peter Johnson and an example of an early crest crimson and cream formation is as follows:
BG, BCK, FK, SO, SO, BG, TPO, TPO, TPO
Both are older books but well worth buying.
Quote from: koyli55002 on July 11, 2014, 06:00:48 AM
I have copies of two articles that may be of help ...
One from Rail Express (March 2011) showing some sample TPO formations for dates from 1986 to 1996.
The second from Modern Railway Modelling (Spring 2005) showing some sample TPO formations for dates from 1993 to 2003.
Would they be of any use or do you have them already ?
Hi
I have managed to get back copies if the Rail Express for March 2011 covering TPOs and March 2009 which covered Parcel Trains, that gives me the info I wanted for that period.
Even though the modelling content concentrats on "00" I found the real railway features very interesting & informative, and may well buy the Mag' occasionally in the future.
Thanks again.
Ray
Quote from: d-a-n on July 28, 2014, 09:11:48 AM
I was at my Dads and went through his books 'Mail by Rail' and 'The British Travelling Post Office' by Peter Johnson and .......
Thanks for the info D-A-N
I have the "TPO" Book but not the "Mail by Night" will have alook around for it.
Ray
Quote from: d-a-n on July 28, 2014, 09:11:48 AM
I was at my Dads and went through his books 'Mail by Rail' and 'The British Travelling Post Office' by Peter Johnson and an example of an early crest crimson and cream formation is as follows:
BG, BCK, FK, SO, SO, BG, TPO, TPO, TPO
Both are older books but well worth buying.
Thanks for the info d.a.n both ordered second hand from AbeBooks. :thumbsup:
Thanks again D-A-N.
Just managed to pick up a second hand copy of "Mail by Rail" from ebay.
Caz I am sure you'll find the TPO book fascinating, I know I did.
Ray