N Gauge Forum

General Category => N Gauge Discussion => Topic started by: geoffc on July 03, 2014, 04:02:51 PM

Title: Base board tops
Post by: geoffc on July 03, 2014, 04:02:51 PM
I am starting to build a new layout, it will be 3 boards 4' x 31" joined to give a length of 12'
I have decided due to my limited carpentry skills to make the frames from 4" x 3/4" softwood cross braced every 16". The bracing pieces every 16" will have lightening holes drilled in them to save weight and make it easier for wiring.

The layout will be in the lounge.

I am after some suggestions regarding the top.
Should I use Sundeala either 6, 9 or 12 mm thick, MDF or ply?
Would a sheet of 6mm ply or MDF with with 6mm Sundeala glued to it give a quieter layout?
Has anybody used ply or MDF with a thin 3mm thick foam board on top to quieten the layout?

Geoff
Title: Re: Base board tops
Post by: Malc on July 03, 2014, 04:51:30 PM
Speaking from personal experience, decide on your track plan before fixing the cross bracing in place, otherwise it may foul the point motors. You may have to move one a cm or two.  I used 6 ml  MDF for the top and as the base is fairly rigid, you don't get too much noise, especially if you stand it on rubber feet.
Title: Re: Base board tops
Post by: geoffc on July 03, 2014, 04:59:40 PM
Thanks for that Malc, I had planned to fit the baseboard to the outside frame and longitudinal brace, and then mark where the points motors etc fit before fitting the transverse bracing. Did you get your MDF from a diy store or a proper timber merchant?

Geoff














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Title: Re: Base board tops
Post by: Malc on July 03, 2014, 05:03:00 PM
My layout is 6 x 4 so I just bought 3 of. 2ft x. 4ft pieces from B & Q. I needed to build it in panels to get it into the railway room loft
Title: Re: Base board tops
Post by: Newportnobby on July 03, 2014, 07:47:30 PM
This one uses 9mm Sundeala as it is easily cut and readily accepts track pins without drilling. Beware - before use it does need conditioning as per the instructions if the layout is likely to be subjected to extremes of temperature. If the layout will be permanently in the lounge you shouldn't suffer that problem but if cut, for example, in a relatively cold garage I'd suggest the pieces are stored in the lounge afterwards for 48 hours.
Whatever surface you use, cross bracing will, in effect, create a 'drum' so you may wish to consider some sort of underlay for the track. In my case I used 1.5mm commercial grade rubber (and suffered for my art with many ribald comments!). Hope this helps.
Title: Re: Base board tops
Post by: kirky on July 03, 2014, 10:49:43 PM
Personally I've tried Sundeala, MDF and ply. Without a doubt the most successful for me is ply. 6mm ply to be exact. And in fact 6 mil ply usually measures about 5.4 mil!
Sundeala just warps too easily, it's too soft and not a good material for model railways. MDF on the other hand is stable, but too hard. It's difficult to drill and then it doesn't hold screws, pins etc well either. Ply is light ish, it's strong, it's stable and accepts pins screws etc well. All of course IMHO.
For an underlay, on top of the ply, under the ballast, you would do worse than to consider plastazote. It's discussed in the Northallerton thread, link in my sig.
Title: Re: Base board tops
Post by: Bealman on July 04, 2014, 05:16:21 AM
I have always used ply. It doesn't like track pins and is noisey, but to be honest, noise from running trains has never bothered me!

It's strong and with suitable framing, will not warp.
Title: Re: Base board tops
Post by: Sprintex on July 04, 2014, 06:02:47 AM
I used 6mm MDF this time, but have gone to great lengths to prevent it warping. However, the general concensus last time we had a poll on this was that 6mm or 9mm ply was the most popular choice for reasons already stated by others and therefore I will probably go with that for the next one :thumbsup:

If you're worried about noise then you'd be better going with ply and using either cork or rubber under the track, preferably gluing the track down with something like Copydex as pinning the track will only transmit noise to the board. If you're planning to ballast your track then again, the usual PVA/water mix used will set rock hard and transmit noise, so you may need to extend the cork/rubber beyond the track boundary? Some people even go as far as covering the complete board in cork or similar to achieve a quiet layout. Personally I think trains should be noisy as they are in real life ;)


Paul
Title: Re: Base board tops
Post by: weave on July 04, 2014, 07:41:09 AM
Quote from: geoffc on July 03, 2014, 04:59:40 PM
Thanks for that Malc, I had planned to fit the baseboard to the outside frame and longitudinal brace, and then mark where the points motors etc fit before fitting the transverse bracing. Did you get your MDF from a diy store or a proper timber merchant?

Geoff

Hi Geoff,

I'm using 6mm MDF at the moment as doing a small layout and find it easier to cut neatly than ply.

For your original board I would recommend a proper timber merchant. DIY stores are expensive and Builders Merchants who sell 8' x 4' sheets tend not to cut it for you.

Ring round as I found a place that will cut the big board to whatever you like. Think £1 a cut but well worth the no hassle neat finish.

I use homebase cork tiles on the board but only really to raise the track as do continental and we have low platforms. Whether it stops noise...who cares!

Cheers weave
Title: Re: Base board tops
Post by: Newportnobby on July 04, 2014, 09:13:46 AM
Quote from: kirky on July 03, 2014, 10:49:43 PM

Sundeala just warps too easily, it's too soft and not a good material for model railways. .

On my 4th layout now with Sundeala and no warping issues experienced, although all the layouts have been 'house bound'. Yes it's soft, but that allows easy cutting/shaping and track pins can be just pushed in with a pair of small nosed pliers. Providing it's braced well I just can't fault it, although beware inhaling dust when cutting with a saw (wear a suitable mask). As has been said, the 'normal' ballasting method will create noise anyway.
Title: Re: Base board tops
Post by: jonclox on July 04, 2014, 09:35:05 AM
I used Sundeala on my 1st layout and wasn't impressed with the results even though it was well supported it still managed to sag in time.
This time Im using a much lighter and stronger sub frame with a 9mm sheet of ply top with 1.5mm cork under the track. It seems to be ok and the noise isnt great.
Title: Re: Base board tops
Post by: Bealman on July 04, 2014, 09:58:20 AM
Yep, that's exactly my method. Of course, the ballasting negates the cork, but like Paul, the sound doesn't bother me.
Title: Re: Base board tops
Post by: macwales on July 04, 2014, 11:36:27 AM
Hi

I am on my 5th layout (4x because of house moves). I have had 2 x spare bedroom layouts, 1 x garden shed (unheated), 1x garage layout (unheated) and a shed in a garage (present and heated).

In all, I have used scrap chipboard or mdf sheets on a minimum softwood frame with softwood legs for support or an old chest of drawers, table etc. On top I have always used Sundeala. Some of the original Sundeala from the 1980's is still in use (after years of storage at times in the loft). I have generally cut the Sundeala to the shape I want for the track and sometimes placed it on similarly shaped (with a jigsaw) chipboard / mdf pieces as an easy way to  construct a lower level embankment. To keep costs down only the trackbed and stations / sidings areas are Sundeala covered. This requires a lot of cutting so an electric  table saw and jigsaw help a lot.

I would recommend using plenty of strut supports for the chipboard rather than mainly tables, chests, etc if a lot of building  lighting is to be installed so access underneath is maintained. However channels can easily be made in the surface of Sundeala to allow for a 'ring main' of wires. The channels can then be hidden with card or other scenic coverings.

All my layouts have had an upper level constructed from the same shaped  cut chipboard with Sudeala on top or just Sundeala - all well supported on 2x1 inch cut softwood battens every 10 cm or so glued to the lower level with PVA and screwed or nailed to the upper chipboard with the Sundeala covering the nail / screwheads. When only Sudeala was used I fix it to the batten supports with flat head long tacks.

The supports allow for tunnels on the lower and wiring for the upper level to be accommodated and allows access to the tunnels in case of derailments.

I have even built slopes (some curved as Sundeala will bend a little) like this but it did involve complex filing of the chipboard and Sundeala to get slope starts and tops rounded so as to allow the track to start from level onto the slope properly.

I have never had much running noise but I do use foam underlay ballast.

It has always proved non sagging and robust but all layouts have been permanent - not portable. However when dismantled I have kept most of the cut pieces (chipboard and Sundeala separated) and reused them in the next layout. All the layouts have been different designs.

Cheers

Mac  :beers:
Title: Re: Base board tops
Post by: kirky on July 04, 2014, 11:42:25 AM
Quote from: newportnobby on July 04, 2014, 09:13:46 AM
Quote from: kirky on July 03, 2014, 10:49:43 PM

Sundeala just warps too easily, it's too soft and not a good material for model railways. .

On my 4th layout now with Sundeala and no warping issues experienced, although all the layouts have been 'house bound'. Yes it's soft, but that allows easy cutting/shaping and track pins can be just pushed in with a pair of small nosed pliers. Providing it's braced well I just can't fault it, although beware inhaling dust when cutting with a saw (wear a suitable mask). As has been said, the 'normal' ballasting method will create noise anyway.

Yes, it amazes me that some people have this experience, but they most certainly do. They fully support Nobby's experiences. Its just not my experience.
Ive got a feeling that Sundeala, like most sheet materials come in different grades. Perhaps I managed to get hold of some poor grade Sundeala and its ruined my impression of it?

Actually Im wondering whether or not you (Nobby) used it as a sheet or whether used openframe construction and cut it as a track bed?

Cheers
kirky
Title: Re: Base board tops
Post by: Bealman on July 04, 2014, 11:48:44 AM
Hi kirky

I'm going off topic, but...

Living where you do, are you going to Hartlepool show? If so, please take piccies - I'm a way always at moment!

Back to topic...  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Base board tops
Post by: kirky on July 04, 2014, 12:05:34 PM
Hi Bealman
Indeed I am. Well as long as Mrs Kirky hasnt changed her mind.
I will certainly take photos of the N gauge layouts. I have suffered many of the OO layouts in the past, but if something takes my fancy I'll watch it for a bit and take some photos for you. No problem. Im not going till sunday tho.
Are you a Boro Lad?

Kirky
Title: Re: Base board tops
Post by: geoffc on July 04, 2014, 12:06:58 PM
Many thanks for all the replies.

Regarding Sundeala, there are two types one of which is no longer made,

I emailed this to Sundeala:
Some thirty years ago I bought some Sundeala that was tan in colour, smooth on one side and dimpled underneath and was thicker that the thinner softer grey I purchased later. What choices are there in Sundeala board please?

This was their reply:
"That sounds like what was our 'A' board. We no longer make that I'm afraid.
We do still offer the light grey softer board as you describe, and we do do it in 3 thicknesses. 6,9 and 12mm."

So it would be interesting to know what those who advocate Sundeala are using, the new or the obsolete. I found the A board was far superior to the grey board and much harder.

Geoff
Title: Re: Base board tops
Post by: Newportnobby on July 04, 2014, 12:10:50 PM
Quote from: kirky on July 04, 2014, 11:42:25 AM

Actually Im wondering whether or not you (Nobby) used it as a sheet or whether used openframe construction and cut it as a track bed?

Cheers
kirky

Hi Kirky,

I have used the Sundeala in both sheet and open frame construction. Like MacWales, when a layout ceases to exist all timber/Sundeala is re-used. In fact, some of the Sundeala I'm using on my latest effort (Bletchford) is now coming up for 30 years old :o :D

Geoff - just seen your post and have to admit to not having ever seen the animal you describe from 30 years ago so I've been using the 'standard' grey matter ;)
Title: Re: Base board tops
Post by: Bealman on July 04, 2014, 12:11:26 PM
Ha ha, no. Sunderland man. But we ARE off topic here. I look forward to pics. I believe Global moderator scotsoft is going. Hope you meet!

Back to Sundeala...  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Base board tops
Post by: kirky on July 04, 2014, 12:34:10 PM
Quote from: newportnobby on July 04, 2014, 12:10:50 PM
Quote from: kirky on July 04, 2014, 11:42:25 AM

Actually Im wondering whether or not you (Nobby) used it as a sheet or whether used openframe construction and cut it as a track bed?

Cheers
kirky

Hi Kirky,

I have used the Sundeala in both sheet and open frame construction.

You might have already mentioned this, but are these stay at home layouts? And if they are, do they have board joints? That's where I got problems, water ingress into the Sundeala at the edge of a board can easily make the track move a a couple of mil.
Cheers
Kirky
Title: Re: Base board tops
Post by: Bealman on July 04, 2014, 12:43:55 PM
I am only referring to my home layout. I now bow to expertise from the forum!  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Base board tops
Post by: Newportnobby on July 04, 2014, 01:23:27 PM
Quote from: kirky on July 04, 2014, 12:34:10 PM

You might have already mentioned this, but are these stay at home layouts? And if they are, do they have board joints? That's where I got problems, water ingress into the Sundeala at the edge of a board can easily make the track move a a couple of mil.
Cheers
Kirky

I did mention before my layouts are all 'house bound' but the latest is a feeble attempt at a show layout. I'm not sure how you got water onto the layout, but another reason for me using rubber track underlay is I'm trying to avoid the Sundeala getting wet when it comes to the ballasting :uneasy:
Yup - all my layouts have been/are composed of at least 3 boards so there are always joints, but the almost 30 year old stuff has been in a damp garage for at least 3 years (no heating, insulation etc :no:)
I guess time will tell :hmmm:
Title: Re: Base board tops
Post by: macwales on July 04, 2014, 01:45:03 PM
Hi

I have bought Sundeala 3 times. All seem to be approx 9mm thick. Late 1970's  was a 4x8 sheet and is grey / tan in colour and quite smooth on one side, reasonably dense and mottled on the other side. This, in my opinion is the best.

The second, again 8x4 was bought in around 1983/4 and is tan in colour, smooth on one side and more rough on the other, again quite dense.

The latest (bought 3 years ago) is the metric equivalent and less dense and and slightly lower quality.

With my method of construction the are many joins, and some bits are tiny.

Each time I was not aware (found out on here today!) that it comes in different grades!!

Cheers

Mac  :beers:
Title: Re: Base board tops
Post by: PLD on July 04, 2014, 05:51:21 PM
Ply for me every time, 4 or 6mm - you don't need any more for lightweight n-gauge provided it is suitably braced. But do look for decent quality ply (so not B&Q!) It's stronger and lighter than chipboard, sundela or MDF.

Personally, I don't bother with a layer of cork or anything else except to give a built up ballast shoulder. The supposed noise suppressing qualities are questionable at best, and in a crowded exhibition the running noise will almost certainly be drowned out by the 00 DCC diesel depot at the other end of the hall and the monotone pronouncements of the neighbourhood rivet counter... ;)
Title: Re: Base board tops
Post by: kirky on July 04, 2014, 06:42:36 PM
Quote from: newportnobby on July 04, 2014, 01:23:27 PM
Quote from: kirky on July 04, 2014, 12:34:10 PM

You might have already mentioned this, but are these stay at home layouts? And if they are, do they have board joints? That's where I got problems, water ingress into the Sundeala at the edge of a board can easily make the track move a a couple of mil.
Cheers
Kirky

I did mention before my layouts are all 'house bound' but the latest is a feeble attempt at a show layout. I'm not sure how you got water onto the layout, but another reason for me using rubber track underlay is I'm trying to avoid the Sundeala getting wet when it comes to the ballasting :uneasy:
Yup - all my layouts have been/are composed of at least 3 boards so there are always joints, but the almost 30 year old stuff has been in a damp garage for at least 3 years (no heating, insulation etc :no:)
I guess time will tell :hmmm:

Indeed you did mention it, and if I hadn't been in such a rush at dinner time, I would have checked.
Water ingress, is essentially from leaving the boards somewhere where there are fluctuation in humidity. Like leaving them in a damp garage.

Oh bummer, one of the twins is falling asleep too early......it's bath time! Back shortly

Kirky
Title: Re: Base board tops
Post by: kirky on July 04, 2014, 07:35:34 PM
As I was saying before I so interrupted by nappy changing, bath time and 'In the Night Garden' it's leaving Sundeala in damp places for me that seems to be an issue. Actually if it gets very damp, MDF can suffer like his, but can be treated, or just painted at the ends.
Can Sundeala be treated similarly I'm wondering?

Further; having established that Sundeala comes in different grades I'm wondering if there are different manufacturers producing similar but not the same stuff? I always thought Sundeala was just notice boards, but I might well be wrong?
Cheers

Kirky
Title: Re: Base board tops
Post by: PLD on July 04, 2014, 07:50:06 PM
Quote from: kirky on July 04, 2014, 07:35:34 PM
Further; having established that Sundeala comes in different grades I'm wondering if there are different manufacturers producing similar but not the same stuff? I always thought Sundeala was just notice boards, but I might well be wrong?

"Sundela" is infact a brand name for one manufacturers recycled fibre-board. Many other manufacturers make very similar materials, but no other can call it 'Sundela'...
Title: Re: Base board tops
Post by: Newportnobby on July 04, 2014, 08:25:45 PM
I've always purchased the 'Hobby Board'.
If you check out the FAQs on this site you'll find the 'conditioning' details which helps prevent moisture wicking once treated.

http://www.sundeala.co.uk/ (http://www.sundeala.co.uk/)
Title: Re: Base board tops
Post by: Bealman on July 05, 2014, 03:46:15 AM
Quote from: PLD on July 04, 2014, 05:51:21 PM
Personally, I don't bother with a layer of cork or anything else except to give a built up ballast shoulder. The supposed noise suppressing qualities are questionable at best, and in a crowded exhibition the running noise will almost certainly be drowned out by the 00 DCC diesel depot at the other end of the hall and the monotone pronouncements of the neighbourhood rivet counter... ;)
:laughabovepost: :laughabovepost:

Yes, total agreement. But the cork does provide a nice shoulder to the ballast, although it has been pointed out to me (on another thread, by the way - so please let's not enter into discussion about it here  ;)) that British Railways don't have much of a pronounced shoulder compared with, say US practice.

But I do like the effect the cork gives. The noise does not bother me at all.
Title: Re: Base board tops
Post by: Caz on July 05, 2014, 08:48:08 AM
My baseboard is 10mm ply covered with 4mm cork (you can buy 5m x 20cm rolls for 15 euro here) and despite using PVA for the ballast I don't have a noise problem, maybe it is because I've used the thicker cork?
Title: Re: Base board tops
Post by: Bealman on July 05, 2014, 10:41:53 AM
Caz I should imagine that with your sound equipped locos and DDC control the noise of the trains might cause probs?

Just innocently asking  :confused2:

George
Title: Re: Base board tops
Post by: kirky on July 05, 2014, 07:36:32 PM
Quote from: Caz on July 05, 2014, 08:48:08 AM
My baseboard is 10mm ply covered with 4mm cork (you can buy 5m x 20cm rolls for 15 euro here) and despite using PVA for the ballast I don't have a noise problem, maybe it is because I've used the thicker cork?
That's interesting (to sad men like me)....10mm ply is not a size available in the UK usually. 9 or 12 mil is readily available but not 10. So did you source that in Spain?
As I've mentioned before the sizes in the UK are only nominal anyway, so 9 mil is something like 8.6. It's annoying.

Cheers
Kirky
Title: Re: Base board tops
Post by: Caz on July 05, 2014, 07:40:50 PM
Yes Kirky, all sourced locally here in Spain, from Leroy Merlin's large DIY store in Malaga.   :)
Title: Re: Base board tops
Post by: kirky on July 05, 2014, 07:56:22 PM
Quote from: Caz on July 05, 2014, 07:40:50 PM
Yes Kirky, all sourced locally here in Spain, from Leroy Merlin's large DIY store in Malaga.   :)
So now I'm wondering if this is good quality European ply? Do you by any chance know where it is manufactured? And also can I be cheeky and ask what you would pay for a sheet of 2440 x 1220?
Cheers
Kirky
Title: Re: Base board tops
Post by: Caz on July 05, 2014, 08:18:47 PM
I'll check next time I'm in there, I bought it in pre cut quarter sheets as it was easier to manage, think is was about 8 euros a piece but will check.
Title: Re: Base board tops
Post by: Bealman on July 06, 2014, 12:36:20 AM
Quote from: Bealman on July 05, 2014, 10:41:53 AM
Caz I should imagine that with your sound equipped locos and DDC control the noise of the trains might cause probs?

Just innocently asking  :confused2:

George

I guess the answer is it doesn't, then.  ;)
Title: Re: Base board tops
Post by: Caz on July 06, 2014, 01:51:18 PM
Sorry George, was a bit busy yesterday and didn't get time to reply.  When I was constructing the layout I was a bit worried that the sound of the trains running on board would negate the on-board loco sounds so tried to make it as quiet as possible and that's why I used the thicker cork.  It seems to have worked as the on-board sound is fine although I must admit when I have 8 to 10 running it gets a little loud especially if 3 or 4 are coaling at the same time.   :)
Title: Re: Base board tops
Post by: Bealman on July 06, 2014, 02:12:27 PM
Show off  :P ;)
Title: Re: Base board tops
Post by: Caz on July 06, 2014, 02:14:57 PM
Quote from: Bealman on July 06, 2014, 02:12:27 PM
Show off  :P ;)

Thought you were going to bed.   :P