I placed an order with Osborns (and paid for) almost a month ago for numerous items for my layout but it has never turned up.
About 4-5 days ago I emailed them asking what had happened to my order - but no reply.
Sent a 2nd email a couple of days ago - and still no reply.
Tried ringing them today (during opening hours) but no-one answered the phone.
Is there a problem with Osborns at the moment does anyone else know?
I have had one previous order from them earlier in the year and that arrived within about 7 to 10 days, and all my orders with Hattons have always arrived within the expected timescale.
I paid by Credit Card so if I don't get an answer soon from Osborns will have to take it up with the Credit Card company to get my money back.
Hi
Have a read of this
http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=9167.msg179192#msg179192 (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=9167.msg179192#msg179192)
I cancelled my order and got the parts elsewhere as I was fed up with broken promises since last September. I will never attempt to order anything from them again.
Cheers
Paul
Quote from: PaulCheffus on June 09, 2014, 05:55:57 PM
Hi
Have a read of this
http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=9167.msg179192#msg179192 (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=9167.msg179192#msg179192)
I cancelled my order and got the parts elsewhere as I was fed up with broken promises since last September. I will never attempt to order anything from them again.
Cheers
Paul
Thanks for that - so it is not just me.
Will try ringing again tomorrow and if I don't get an acceptable answer will be in touch with the Credit Card company to get my money back.
I only ordered from them because Hattons didn't (then) have in stock some urgent track I wanted and a cutting tool etc.
Quote from: Tdm on June 09, 2014, 05:28:16 PM
Is there a problem with Osborns at the moment does anyone else know?
I bought from Osborns once and in that order most things arrived within the same box a couple days and the last item in that order arrive two months later! Yes, they had completely forgotten to process that part of the order.
On the plus side, they do commission some unique stuff (like the Dapol D1000 in desert sand) and their n-gauge selection is pretty good and keenly priced.
Anyway, Maurice Pearce at Osborns seems to be a keen member of the Yahoo "ngauge" group; I see him post there most weeks, often every day. If you have problems, posting there will surely get his attention.
Cheers, NeMo
I believe Maurice is a member on here, so hopefully he'll see this and be able to respond.
Quote from: Tdm on June 09, 2014, 05:28:16 PM
I placed an order with Osborns (and paid for) almost a month ago for numerous items for my layout but it has never turned up.
About 4-5 days ago I emailed them asking what had happened to my order - but no reply.
Sent a 2nd email a couple of days ago - and still no reply.
Tried ringing them today (during opening hours) but no-one answered the phone.
Is there a problem with Osborns at the moment does anyone else know?
I have had one previous order from them earlier in the year and that arrived within about 7 to 10 days, and all my orders with Hattons have always arrived within the expected timescale.
I paid by Credit Card so if I don't get an answer soon from Osborns will have to take it up with the Credit Card company to get my money back.
Osborns do not open Mondays so you would not expect them to pick up!
Just for balance, I have been a customer of Osborns for many years and never had any problems at all. That is many orders, always delivered, they have never once let me down.
Roy
Quote from: Tank on June 09, 2014, 06:39:57 PM
I believe Maurice is a member on here, so hopefully he'll see this and be able to respond.
I hope so as I am getting no joy emailing or ringing!
Quote from: Tdm on June 09, 2014, 06:46:11 PM
Quote from: Tank on June 09, 2014, 06:39:57 PM
I believe Maurice is a member on here, so hopefully he'll see this and be able to respond.
I hope so as I am getting no joy emailing or ringing!
No excuse for non-replies to e-mails but as I mentioned above, they do not open Mondays so I hardly think it fair to say you tried to phone them today "during opening hours" and got no reply. Their opening times are shown on their Website.
Quote from: Tdm on June 09, 2014, 06:46:11 PM
Quote from: Tank on June 09, 2014, 06:39:57 PM
I believe Maurice is a member on here, so hopefully he'll see this and be able to respond.
I hope so as I am getting no joy emailing or ringing!
Maurice is a member on here but hasn't been on for quite a while as he prefers the Yahoo group but his son Michael who now runs the business is a current member on here and has posted recently.
Quote from: Roy L S on June 09, 2014, 07:09:52 PM
No excuse for non-replies to e-mails
Actually - there is, not that I expect (m)any here to care ...
Email has never,
and will never, be a guaranteed service, so stop expecting that. Don't believe me ? Read up on the RFCs, protocols etc that define email service.
Only if the protocols are re-done may it become guaranteed. It's the same with the "my email account has been hacked !" baloney on Yahoo etc; email source addresses are easily spoofed. It
can be fixed - but apparently no-one is willing to rewrite the protocols to prevent it ...
But as you say - if they
ain't open on a Monday,
don't call them on a Monday !!!
Mike
PS - if you disagree with me, fine ... I have a
guaranteed method of how
you can
make money by
sitting at home playing games on your PC ! Just send me £20 via bank transfer to cover my costs, &
the details are yours free !!!
Quote from: MikeDunn on June 09, 2014, 07:29:24 PM
Quote from: Roy L S on June 09, 2014, 07:09:52 PM
PS - if you disagree with me, fine ... I have a guaranteed method of how you can make money by sitting at home playing games on your PC ! Just send me £20 via bank transfer to cover my costs, & the details are yours free !!!
Oh dear!
Quote from: MikeDunn on June 09, 2014, 07:29:24 PM
Email has never, and will never, be a guaranteed service, so stop expecting that. Don't believe me ? Read up on the RFCs, protocols etc that define email service. Only if the protocols are re-done may it become guaranteed. It's the same with the "my email account has been hacked !" baloney on Yahoo etc; email source addresses are easily spoofed. It can be fixed - but apparently no-one is willing to rewrite the protocols to prevent it ...
I'm not passing opinion on Osborn's as I have never used them but I think you are being a bit harsh on the chap Mike. Fair enough, calling on a day when they are not open is obviously not going to garner a reply and a bit of homework could have put that one to bed. However, any business I have worked in it's standard etiquette to reply within 1 business day, yes, 1 business day. Anything less, is, frankly speaking, unacceptable. It is an instant form of delivery and if you are running your business with an eye on incoming e-mails then you would be able to reply within 1 working day. The reply might just be a one-liner such as "We acknowledge your correspondence and will get back to you shortly", but a reply it is.
I'm not sure what RFC's and protocols you are referring to. It's simple really, if a business cannot reply in an adequate time frame, then they shouldn't advertise e-mail as a form of correspondence. There are simply too many places to take your cash and spend it these days to have to put up with sub-standard service.
As I eluded to at the top, I'm not having a pop at Osborn's as I don't know the facts. I'm also not having a go at you Mike, just trying to balance out what I think is a fair question by the OP chap.
Tin hat at the ready ... :-X
Dan
Dan,
Not having a pop back at you - but as you admit you don't understand my point. I agree that if the mail did get through, it's bad form not to reply ...
(This next bit is getting a touch technical)
All email systems, not just Osborns or yours or mine but all systems, are written to be in conformance to defined RFCs and protocols (eg RFC 821 for email, RFC 5322 for an email address). If they aren't conforming then they won't work; either in part or in whole. It's the same with the rest of the Internet, not just email ... it's all defined in international standards.
Now, you click 'send' on a mail on your PC and you assume that the message has gone into the other person's mailbox. Bad assumption ... What is supposed to happen is that if a mail is undelivered, you get a message back telling you this - but many ISPs filter email & such a message is dropped ...
This is absolutely nothing to do with the person or business you sent the email to. It's the way the internet email system works - or sometimes doesn't.
So - back to my original point - don't assume your email got through. Odds are it did - but there are no guarantees ...
Mike
PS - there are many books, articles, etc you can read up on if you so desire; Google the RFCs I list above; there are many more ...
Quote from: MikeDunn on June 09, 2014, 08:43:34 PM
(This next bit is getting a touch technical)
And not really germane to the issue.
Quote from: MikeDunn on June 09, 2014, 08:43:34 PM
All email systems, not just Osborns or yours or mine but all systems...
Technical issues aren't the reason* e-mails sent to some traders don't get replies; it's that the traders ignore them, or don't check that address much/at all, or don't know how their computer works. It's not just (sometimes) Osborns but a problem with a lot of the smaller vendors. You talk to them at shows and they'll say that their son (or whoever) used to do the website but he's at university (or wherever) now, so the website doesn't get updated and they don't have the time to check the e-mails.
It is really frustrating for those us who use e-mails and reply to them promptly, even when abroad or travelling, and find it inexplicable how anyone can be so diffident about this wonderful form of communication. It also loses those vendors trade if I want to buy some bits and bobs but can't. One reason for the growth of e-Bay and Amazon Marketplace I'm sure is that they're pretty much there 24/7. You don't have to phone during office hours and you don't have to faff around chasing late deliveries. On the whole both those companies handle problems very efficiently.
Cheers, NeMo
*I'm sure once in a while e-mails are genuinely lost in the aether. But that's rare, very rare, and for the retailers we're talking about here, not a valid explanation.
I agree that technically proof of sending is not proof of receipt and that occasionally e-mails do not reach their intended target. But the technological excuse is much overused, by the sender who typically got the e-mail address wrong, or the recipient who did not receive the e-mail, or did and then didn't read it or respond to it in a timely manor.
One just has to look at many, many suppliers, societies etc. in our hobby. They have little idea how to put a website together and little idea of how to converse with their customers unless a telephone or letter is involved.
It still mystifies me why manufacturers/suppliers/service providers think that in this day and age, they can charge for catalogues. Sales 101 surely indicates that this is a barrier to a sale which is easily overcome.
Not all good modellers are good website designers, and it seems that many shopkeepers don't/can't get on with e-mail.
Just my twopence worth :)
Cheers
Dave
Quote from: NeMo on June 09, 2014, 09:01:15 PM
And not really germane to the issue.
As an explanation of
why it may happen, I beg to differ.
Quote
Technical issues aren't the reason* e-mails sent to some traders don't get replies; it's that the traders ignore them, or don't check that address much/at all, or don't know how their computer works.
[...]
*I'm sure once in a while e-mails are genuinely lost in the aether. But that's rare, very rare, and for the retailers we're talking about here, not a valid explanation.
Quote
It happens more often than you think; as someone within the IT industry and who has knowledge of email systems, I am speaking from a firm foundation ...
I do not make the argument that this did happen (re-read my post), just give a possible explanation. But repeated emails that don't get replies ... yes, I agree something may be fishy - or they may just be (as you imply) incompetent. I have been on the receiving end myself from a small vendor (no-one on here :no:).
I blame the internet culture for the lack of patience we see in many areas these days ... (almost) everyone has an "I want it now" frame of mind :( 'Twas never like this in my youth ... Technology has done many wondrous things - but at a high price.
Mike
this is a perky thread :)
it's true, email isn't guaranteed delivery, i work in IS and see this from people external to my organization sometimes.
most of the time it is used as an excuse for not being arsed to reply.... not saying that is the case here.
To the OP, if you are posting with an email account that is more open to abuse (yahoo mail, gmail etc. yuor chance of being treated as junk by the receiver is higher than for a less open email domain. Try a second email account and see if you get through :)
to MikeDunn. check your junk email folder, you maybe missing something important :)
Didn't mean to stir up a hornets nest - just wanted to know other peoples experiences,
and I did check Osborns Website before I rang, noticed they were closed on Sundays, noted the office hours, but missed the fact that they also close on a Monday. I have tried ringing on another day, but some days you can't get through to the U.K. from Tenerife.
In my opinion Emails should be answered promptly - if Hattons can email me back within seconds of me placing an order with them (and I have used them on 15 occasions to-date), why can't others respond, at least within 48 hours.
Don't believe a word of the statement "email might not have been received by them". I have sent and received thousands & thousands of emails without any problems, and if the email address is invalid you get a notification of such virtually straight away.
I was an I.T. Manager for 30 years before I retired, and currently I am a Moderator on our complex's Website, and if someone new tries to register on the site, or posts something contentious, or asks me a question, I respond the same day depending on what time I log on.
As all my model railway purchases are made online, I need a supplier I can rely on and can trust to deliver to me what I want in a reasonable time. Being new to N gauge (since last September) I am still finding out who I can trust when making orders, and to-date have tried Hattons (excellent service), Gaugemaster, Peters Spares, BR Rail (helpful & immediate response to 1st enquiry), CR Signals, and Osborns.
Some sites don't even list/recognise the Canary Isles, assuming they are part of Spain, but the Canaries have their own Tax & Vat Rules and are NOT part of the EEC, even though Spain is. Deliveries to the Canaries from the U.K. are not subject to VAT, and I need a supplier who recognises that fact.
I will try ringing Osborns again tomorrow, and report back on the outcome. Everyone deserves a second chance, but if they don't come up trumps next time round, then that's it as far as I am concerned.
Thanks for all the replies, even if some of them were not particularly complimentary, not used to shops closing on a Monday, it's usually one of the busiest days in town here as I can never park my car anywhere near where I want to go on a Monday. Closing between 1pm and 3.30pm each day yes (for a Siesta), but then they open again till late at night.
:sleep: :sleep: :sleep: :sleep:
Hi TDM,
I have sent you a couple of personal messages, I have checked the inbox and spam folders and the last email we have from you was on the 15th. I will see if I can track this parcel down for you. We did have a customer phone up last week to say that they had an email bounce back that they had tried to send us, so if this has happened with yours, please accept my apologies.
Quote from: DCCDave on June 09, 2014, 09:17:54 PM
I agree that technically proof of sending is not proof of receipt and that occasionally e-mails do not reach their intended target. But the technological excuse is much overused,
I have rgular problems with emails being lost when dealing with customers, and in some cases pairs of sites that simply cannot mail one another without stuff being lost or put in the spam folder. I know I sent replies, the customer would have no reason to make it up that they emailed me.
Some is explainable (eg an Amazon voucher that happened to include V1AGR in the code!) but much of it is farcical. For example you cannot currently receive a National Express eticket on Gmail - they get filed in the spam - and have done for so long it's simply a "known issue"
If you don't get a response by email then it's quite likely it got lost. Modern spam filters are quite good at filtering spam but *useless* at not filtering content.
Some suppliers are also useless at reading their email but that's another story.
Alan
Oi Oi Zakalwe ... nothing wrong with a perky thread mate - it brings the punters through the door! :thumbsup:
I think we're all grown up enough on here to keep it civilised and it's the kind of discussion that I'm sure would split opinions if we were having it over a :beers: We're all friends really :claphappy: To be honest, I can see both sides of the divide; the technical camp who say e-mails can and do get lost (valid points guys) and the customer service camp who expect a reply.
TDM, it looks like you got a reply tonight from Osborns, which I guess solves this particular issue. Based on that, I would give them a second chance (it just "could" have been a spam issue - something I didn't actually think of before, but plausible, as others have pointed out). I'm also stranded on shores afar and face the same issues as you with regards to finding reliable retailers. Luckily the VAT issue is definitely non-contestable in my case 8)
As I said in a previous post, I haven't used Osborns yet, but I'll sure give them a try sometime.
Phew - only my second day as a NGF member! Perhaps I should be staying away from the school playground fights :P
Quote from: MKP on June 09, 2014, 10:05:55 PM
Hi TDM,
I have sent you a couple of personal messages, I have checked the inbox and spam folders and the last email we have from you was on the 15th. I will see if I can track this parcel down for you. We did have a customer phone up last week to say that they had an email bounce back that they had tried to send us, so if this has happened with yours, please accept my apologies.
Thanks for looking into the matter. The emails I sent on the 3rd & 6th of June to Osborns I have copied & pasted into my latest PM to you sent a few minutes ago.
Don't wish to drag the debate on – but I did say I would report on the outcome of any discusions with Osborns, and the current situation is that payment for my order shows on my latest Credit Card Statement, but items have still not arrived.
Maurice & Mike of Osborns (Father & Son) are now looking into the matter (thanks to this Forum), and the latest email received from Maurice is that my emails headed "Missing order" went into their Spam folder and have only just now been found.
I find this a little strange as I have sent in total 12 emails to Osborns, all with the same email address, and apart from one other, all the rest have been answered or dealt with.
EMAILS TO OSBORNS – FACTUAL RECORD:
Date: Time: Heading & Content Summary:
12/11/13 20.06 N Gauge model railway items
(asking about delivery to Tenerife)
16/02/14 16.28 VAT
(Canary Isles missing from Countries list)
16/02/14 17.54 Re VAT
(follow up info)
17/02/14 20.38 Order for delivery to Tenerife
(Unable to complete order because Canary Isles still missing)
18/02/14 01.10 RE Order for delivery to Tenerife
(Details of items wished to order put in email)
25/02/14 17.25 RE Tenerife order
(Acknowledgement of receipt of order in Tenerife)
13/05/14 13.26 Order for Tenerife
(Canaries still mising from Website)
14/05/14 20.30 FW Order for Tenerife
(Repeat as previous email not acknowledged)
15/04/14 10.47 RE Order for Tenerife
(Still not showing Canaries)
15/04/14 16.38 Re Order for Tenerife
(Acknowledge that Website now amended for Canaries)
03/06/14 17.19 Missing Order
(1st notification to Osborns that order never arrived)
06/06/14 17.50 FW Missing Order
(Repeat of previous email as was not acknowledged)
From the above you will see that when I finally managed to complete my 1st order it arrived 7 days later. The 2nd order I tried to make on the 13th of May, rang it through on the 15th of May, yet transaction date on Credit Card statement shows only 22nd of May, and still not received.
Hopefully I will get a successful resolution of the matter, and then it would be only fair if I reported on that fact if and when it occurs.
Hi Mr Makinson
I tried calling you this morning and left you an answer machine message. What is the best time to call and I can give you call back this afternoon.
Again sincere apologies for the delay on this parcel arriving with yourself and we are trying to track this down for you at the moment.
Quote from: MKP on June 10, 2014, 12:25:46 PM
Hi Mr Makinson
I tried calling you this morning and left you an answer machine message. What is the best time to call and I can give you call back this afternoon.
Again sincere apologies for the delay on this parcel arriving with yourself and we are trying to track this down for you at the moment.
Sorry - had just nipped out - have tried ringing you back but getting the engaged tone.
I am in at the moment.
Terry
Whilst I was in retail jewellery for close on 20 years we had a policy which was never to leave a customer in the shop if the phone rang unless one of us on rare occasions was doing nothing and then they would answer it .
OK so jewellery is high risk commodity as far as theft is concerned but think anyone who deserted a customer in any kind of shop to answer the phone would be being rude to whoever he/she was serving.
Smallish family retail business cant afford to employ someone just to sit around to answer the phone.
QuoteSmallish family retail business cant afford to employ someone just to sit around to answer the phone.
In which case there should be an extension phone in the shop, a quick "I'm serving a customer, can you hold or can I call you back" should do the trick. Alternatively an automated answer asking the caller to leave name and number.
Quote from: DesertHound on June 09, 2014, 10:32:21 PM
Oi Oi Zakalwe ... nothing wrong with a perky thread mate - it brings the punters through the door! :thumbsup:
i was hoping for more forum interwebs drama........ :)
after all the moans, they do a nice small fire station to print free :thumbsup:
alan
Quote from: Tdm on June 10, 2014, 11:23:47 AM
Don't wish to drag the debate on – but I did say I would report on the outcome of any discusions with Osborns, and the current situation is that payment for my order shows on my latest Credit Card Statement, but items have still not arrived.
Maurice & Mike of Osborns (Father & Son) are now looking into the matter (thanks to this Forum), and the latest email received from Maurice is that my emails headed "Missing order" went into their Spam folder and have only just now been found.
I find this a little strange as I have sent in total 12 emails to Osborns, all with the same email address, and apart from one other, all the rest have been answered or dealt with.
EMAILS TO OSBORNS – FACTUAL RECORD:
Date: Time: Heading & Content Summary:
12/11/13 20.06 N Gauge model railway items
(asking about delivery to Tenerife)
16/02/14 16.28 VAT
(Canary Isles missing from Countries list)
16/02/14 17.54 Re VAT
(follow up info)
17/02/14 20.38 Order for delivery to Tenerife
(Unable to complete order because Canary Isles still missing)
18/02/14 01.10 RE Order for delivery to Tenerife
(Details of items wished to order put in email)
25/02/14 17.25 RE Tenerife order
(Acknowledgement of receipt of order in Tenerife)
13/05/14 13.26 Order for Tenerife
(Canaries still mising from Website)
14/05/14 20.30 FW Order for Tenerife
(Repeat as previous email not acknowledged)
15/04/14 10.47 RE Order for Tenerife
(Still not showing Canaries)
15/04/14 16.38 Re Order for Tenerife
(Acknowledge that Website now amended for Canaries)
03/06/14 17.19 Missing Order
(1st notification to Osborns that order never arrived)
06/06/14 17.50 FW Missing Order
(Repeat of previous email as was not acknowledged)
From the above you will see that when I finally managed to complete my 1st order it arrived 7 days later. The 2nd order I tried to make on the 13th of May, rang it through on the 15th of May, yet transaction date on Credit Card statement shows only 22nd of May, and still not received.
Hopefully I will get a successful resolution of the matter, and then it would be only fair if I reported on that fact if and when it occurs.
TBH, this is a forum for a fun hobby not a court of law you have to win with weight of "factual " evidence and cunning persuasive logic.
A simple post in a few days to indicate happiness / withdrawal of your custom would be better ? You have made contact with the owners which is the best use of the forum?
Just out of curiosity where you a PRINCE 2 accredited IT manger? you sound like you were :)
Quote from: Zakalwe on June 10, 2014, 08:45:51 PM
Quote from: DesertHound on June 09, 2014, 10:32:21 PM
Oi Oi Zakalwe ... nothing wrong with a perky thread mate - it brings the punters through the door! :thumbsup:
i was hoping for more forum interwebs drama........ :)
This is THE friendly forum and slanging matches are not tolerated, helpful criticism or suggestions are always welcome though. :)
Another Toytown riot ! A posting about a delayed order ends up as
WW3. Close it down for gawds sake.
To be more positive, Osborns is one of the few outlets that really supports our gauge/scale. There are only a handful of retailers that stock such a wide range of items and even fewer that have a genuine interest in N. Such enterprises are to be encouraged in my opinion.
Quote from: jthjth on June 11, 2014, 08:46:39 AM
To be more positive, Osborns is one of the few outlets that really supports our gauge/scale. There are only a handful of retailers that stock such a wide range of items and even fewer that have a genuine interest in N. Such enterprises are to be encouraged in my opinion.
Couldn't agree more, they are one of the few that are really into N gauge and support it well. :thumbsup:
Quote from: whiteswan on June 11, 2014, 09:06:15 AM
Quote from: jthjth on June 11, 2014, 08:46:39 AM
To be more positive, Osborns is one of the few outlets that really supports our gauge/scale. There are only a handful of retailers that stock such a wide range of items and even fewer that have a genuine interest in N. Such enterprises are to be encouraged in my opinion.
Couldn't agree more, they are one of the few that are really into N gauge and support it well. :thumbsup:
Ditto :thumbsup:
I started this thread - so let me finish it.
I never intended it to be a battleground between Forum members.
Fair play to Osborns, they immediately investigated the matter once it was brought to their attention courtesy of this Forum (my unacknowledged emails apparently had gone in their Spam folder), and I have been told this morning that no trace can be found of the dispatched order, so they are preparing a duplicate.
Whether the package was lost by Royal Mail, or the Spanish Correos I don't know, but out of about 20 model railway deliveries to me here in Tenerife to-date, it is the 1st one that has gone missing.
I will make no more posts on this thread until such time as either the original, or duplicate package turns up, only to say thank you once again to Mike (and Maurice) at Osborns for your PMs and telephone calls and offer of sending me a replacement.
Just a quick post to say that the replacement order sent to me when the original one went missing arrived today - so thanks to Mike of Osborns for sorting things out for me, and to this Forum for putting me in touch with him.
Further update :
Tried to send an email to Mike at Osborns saying order arrived - but now I am getting an unable to deliver message saying email address is invalid - yet I am simply replying to an email he sent me. If you are looking at this Mike - have you changed your email address?
Just wanted to say that my original order to Osborns in early May that the post was about, turned up today (July 14th), a couple of weeks after their replacement order arrived.
The package seems to have been "bashed about" a bit, although the contents are intact, and it has Customs stamps all over it.
Looks like Customs have been sat on it, or lost it and found it again.
Have informed Mike at Osborns.