it looks like Model Power are in trouble , it will be sad to see them go , for those who dont know the name , in the past they have introduced many a new commer to model railways , especialy in the US ...
http://www.modelpower.com/ (http://www.modelpower.com/)
it also looks like Vollmer are heading the same way ...
http://vollmer-online.de/en/archive/anouncement_2014.html (http://vollmer-online.de/en/archive/anouncement_2014.html)
alan
No matter what you model it's always sad to see another shop/manufacturer go..
Shame about Vollmer - so I am even more glad that I bought my Vollmer boxed set from DM Toys when I did!
(http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m111/Corporal_Bang/Polish%20trains/P1020240_zps6609336d.jpg)
How long before we see the "rare/vintage" tag applied to any Ebay sales ?
Pretty hard to cop all these companies closing down, I notice the American Online rRetailer "Discount Trains Online" have also shut shop.
I wouldn't be surprised to see Hornby join the has beens in the not to distant future, Hornby ??? no way, well if a gigantic company like Kodak can bite the dust so can Hornby, they are in all sorts of trouble with Kader in China so is Atlas.
There have been closures and consolidations going on for sometime even in the so called good times.
Kind regards
Geoff
Re, all these closures. When I started railway modelling back in the 1950s, here in Birmingham there seemed to be a modelling shop in every district including Beaties, the big model railway store in the city centre. Many did a part-exchange system and you could change outline, period or country's railways at relative small cost. Sadly, the last modelling shop I dealt with for many years, Bobs Models in Sheldon, closed a few months ago. Now, I only know of one shop _Allens Books Shop _ in the city centre.
I think there must be fewer clubs too, because there doesn't seem to be as many of the smaller club exhibitions as there used to be. Saturdays especially were good days for exhibitions in church halls or scouts huts.
Re Longbridge's remarks about Hornby's problems. Didn't they have something simiiar in the '60s?
Ahh Nostalgia, Nostalgia! Have we had the best tmes? ???
Cheers, Mickey 26
Quote from: mickey26 on April 25, 2014, 12:56:45 PM
Re Longbridge's remarks about Hornby's problems. Didn't they have something simiiar in the '60s?
Different brand owner but yes - Horby Dublo went under for a variety of reasons including lack of standardisation and too much exposure when the market turned sharply downwards. The brand was then bought by the Lines Brothers (aka "Tri-ang" - three Lines brothers!) who flogged the Dublo tooling off to G&R Wrenn (allegedly as a backhander for dropping their rival to Scaletrix but all the relevant records are long gone so it remains an unproved story). Tri-ang used the name as Tri-ang Hornby for a while before becoming Hornby. Lines brothers also made Sten machine guns for a period!
The Hornby Dublo tooling went from Wrenn to Dapol to some collectors.
So in a way Dapol has as much claim to "Hornby" as "Hornby" 8)
Model railway company history gets very convoluted when you start following stuff around - some Hornby OO is ex Dapol eventually ex Airfix, Bachmann's UK range started out of "Mainline", and the Dapol OO plastic kits are from the original Airfix.
When the companies go under the tooling is generally sold on as do the names, but often not to the same people!
Quote from: mickey26 on April 25, 2014, 12:56:45 PM
Re, all these closures. When I started railway modelling back in the 1950s, here in Birmingham there seemed to be a modelling shop in every district including Beaties, the big model railway store in the city centre. Many did a part-exchange system and you could change outline, period or country's railways at relative small cost. Sadly, the last modelling shop I dealt with for many years, Bobs Models in Sheldon, closed a few months ago. Now, I only know of one shop _Allens Books Shop _ in the city centre.
I think there must be fewer clubs too, because there doesn't seem to be as many of the smaller club exhibitions as there used to be. Saturdays especially were good days for exhibitions in church halls or scouts huts.
Re Longbridge's remarks about Hornby's problems. Didn't they have something simiiar in the '60s?
Ahh Nostalgia, Nostalgia! Have we had the best tmes? ???
Cheers, Mickey 26
I also started in the 1950s Mickey and also in Birmingham my home town, you are right there used to be loads of hobby shops in Birmingham back then, I remember one just down the hill opposite the Bull Ring, the one we used a lot was just off Bristol Road in Northfield, ah those were the days.
With regard to Hornby today, the problem is that Kader in China own Bachmann, Bachmann of course make OO Gauge Branchline models which I believe is a better product than Hornby, Hornby have long delays in supply, this all came about when Sanda Kan the manufacturer of Hornby and many other brands sold out to Kader, Atlas America was made by Sanda Kan and also have a supply problem, they asked for Kader for their moulds so they could get their products made in a different factory and they were told "no way the moulds are ours we bought them from Sanda Kan, there are some real problems in the model railway industry at the moment, it will be interesting to see what happens in the future, maybe Hornby would have been better off keeping their production at Margate.
Quote from: longbridge on April 25, 2014, 01:03:05 AM
Pretty hard to cop all these companies closing down, I notice the American Online rRetailer "Discount Trains Online" have also shut shop.
I wouldn't be surprised to see Hornby join the has beens in the not to distant future, Hornby ??? no way, well if a gigantic company like Kodak can bite the dust so can Hornby, they are in all sorts of trouble with Kader in China so is Atlas.
Kodak died because they didn't see / react / believe in a step change in their industry.
Hornby may go because they didn't see / react / believe that a rapid change the in Chinese manufacturing.
you could add a million tech companies including apple in the early 1990's, all guilty of not seing or reacting to a change.
Hi
maybe in the climate we are living at present,with prices for food, utility bills,council tax,all going up people haven't got the disposible cash they used to have.
I have just got my state pension increase a whole £2.00 per week,my employers pension went up £4.25 a week,because of these increases my pension credit went down from £14.00 to £9.00,I'm now worse off than I was in 2013,so sadly I will no longer be buying any N gauge items this year.Saleries and Pensions aren't keeping up with prices.
The new prices of over £100.00 are now out of my price range,and I think a lot of people are haveing to think twice before buying,the manufacturers went to China to get things made cheaply and sell high,now they have come unstuck.
Mike
I think many of us are in the same boat, with the cost of living going up and being on a pension myself I buy second hand, I cant remember the last time I bought a brand new loco.
Back about 7 or 8 years ago I spent many thousands of $$$$ on model railways but due to the fact that I like to change gauge's and nationality of model railways all of my models were traded on whatever I was interested in at the time.
To be honest I am getting more out of the hobby now than I ever did, I find 90% of second hand locos I have bought run as good as new ones, I do far more scratch building now than I ever did before and spend far less cash on the hobby, frankly I can see why the hobby was so popular before all this Chinese built stuff hit the market.
I am sorry to hear that Volmer and Model Power are shutting down but it wont make one iota of difference to the way I go about this great hobby.
Quote from: Michael Hendle on April 26, 2014, 07:32:58 PM
The new prices of over £100.00 are now out of my price range,and I think a lot of people are haveing to think twice before buying,the manufacturers went to China to get things made cheaply and sell high,now they have come unstuck.
Mike
Bachmann are a Chinese company in the first place, and the manufacturers went to China to keep prices reasonable. On a UK build I imagine the prices would be way higher by now.
In real terms versus disposable income models are still pretty cheap but the prices are going to keep on rising so we might as well get used to it.
Alan
I just read a review of the railway related items in article about the Nuremburg toy fair in a French magazine and it seems that although some of the well-known names are going under there are plenty of new companies entering the market.
What struck me was that :
1) TT seems to be making a comeback in Europe
2) compared with plastic, laser cut wood or paperboard seems to be becoming more popular for structure/building kits
Best regards,
Joe
Sad to hear that a couple of well known manufacturers have gone to the wall...will more follow? Manufacturers may need to look again at their prices if they are to capture custom from people who are up against it financially. The British are renowned for their stiff upper lip. When people are financially stretched they are very often loathe to be open about it. I believe masses of people have nowhere near the disposable income these days after they have paid the large mandatory bills we are all faced with in today's society. It would only take a couple of interest rate rises to push large numbers over the edge. Relating this to model railways it's surely a case where once people would impulse buy, but many now think carefully about their purchases. This may account for so many items becoming available at a reduced price within months of their initial release. Could it be that the £100+ locos are released with their price tags to capture the market that can or will pay the price. Items are subsequently reduced to a level where they become more attractive as a reduction, also capturing customers who very nearly purchased at the release price...just a thought. I do remember reading that the Ixion Manor cost around £17 to build,although with nothing credible to back this up this is perhaps best treated as a rumour. If this was indeed the cost then when you factor in shipping from China, any taxes, U.K. distribution costs, advertising etc etc, it does appear on the surface that somewhere some healthy mark-ups are to be made. If a loco with e.g. a £140 rrp on it's release can appear 6 months later at say £89, then the respective people involved after manufacturing costs must still be getting a reasonable return? Purely a personal view, but I think the world recession is far from over, but being talked up by politicians. I think some manufacturers may have to review their release prices if they are to capture volume sales from the point of a models release. How many times have posters said on here that they will wait until a models price comes down? Whilst we wait for the price reductions manufacturers/stockists have their money tied up in models sat on shelves.Cash flow problems spring to mind... I may be widely off the mark here, but it's how I see the situation. I know this, I do not have the disposable income I did a few Years back, so really think before I buy. With an ageing population this will surely affect more people over time.
Quote from: trkilliman on April 27, 2014, 09:53:16 AM
purchased at the release price...just a thought. I do remember reading that the Ixion Manor cost around £17 to build,although with nothing credible to back this up
When Lindsay (Ixion) was explaining why they dropped out of UK N numbers were quoted publically. Summarising
Quote
Current cost is £90,000 to make 1000 locos, plus advertising/shipping/warehousing etc
At the time of the Manor it worked out as follows
1200 locos @£84 to Ixion
£42 of each goes to paying off tooling/production costs
£21 went to Dapol for design/distribution/service
£21 retained profit (to actually pay for all the actual work they did)
which wasn't sustainable even when they had no retail trade in the middle.
The numbers look better the higher volume you do but that's shifting bit by bit also - the percentage wise the cost of per unit assembly (the cost that doesn't go down much with volume) is going up and up.
Add into that the fact that as prices rise volumes fall and I think its a fair bet that we'll see much higher prices, far less new models, and more reliveries.
At some point 3D print will get good enough to really begin to change the rules as well.
In time I'm sure £200-250 will be the normal price for a loco, but on the bright side - as the prices begin to equalize it begins to make sense to build them back in Europe.
Alan
This 3D printing does look impressive. Would I be correct in thinking that eventually you will be able to print in colour as well? If so then you could produce a rolling stock item fully decorated at the touch of a button.
Paddy
Colour is doable already.. its the combination of good colour, surface quality and price we need.
Alan
Quote from: EtchedPixels on April 27, 2014, 04:10:12 PM
Quote from: trkilliman on April 27, 2014, 09:53:16 AM
purchased at the release price...just a thought. I do remember reading that the Ixion Manor cost around £17 to build,although with nothing credible to back this up
When Lindsay (Ixion) was explaining why they dropped out of UK N numbers were quoted publically. Summarising
Quote
Current cost is £90,000 to make 1000 locos, plus advertising/shipping/warehousing etc
At the time of the Manor it worked out as follows
1200 locos @£84 to Ixion
£42 of each goes to paying off tooling/production costs
£21 went to Dapol for design/distribution/service
£21 retained profit (to actually pay for all the actual work they did)
which wasn't sustainable even when they had no retail trade in the middle.
The numbers look better the higher volume you do but that's shifting bit by bit also - the percentage wise the cost of per unit assembly (the cost that doesn't go down much with volume) is going up and up.
Add into that the fact that as prices rise volumes fall and I think its a fair bet that we'll see much higher prices, far less new models, and more reliveries.
At some point 3D print will get good enough to really begin to change the rules as well.
In time I'm sure £200-250 will be the normal price for a loco, but on the bright side - as the prices begin to equalize it begins to make sense to build them back in Europe.
Alan
Alan
You have hit the nail on the head!
One of the other partners in Ixon who I know quite well gave me similar figures.
Basically, the only costs that decrease with volume are the development, financial and die costs as these are amortised over the number of units produced. Everything else, as you have said, remains pretty well the same.
Some of the savings we have been experiencing in the recent past, apart from cheaper Asian labour costs, has been due to changes in technology in the use of CAD and spark etched erosion to cut the dies.
Unfortunately, the model railway market is shrinking the hobby will not be able to take continued advantage of these savings. We will probably also see a consolidation in the number of manufacturers who will produce only models with a large enough volume to make it worthwhile.
Probably also most people would not be aware that the Chinese Yuan is appreciating against other currencies thereby increasing the cost to the consumer.
I am looking forward to the 3D revolution. Where's the barricade?
Kind regards
Geoff
3D print is only half the story - at least for locos - you can't 3D print motors 8)
The barriers I'm aware of when doing 3D kit stuff are
- you can currently have high surface quality (eg the Bachmann EPs they put on display now and then), or sort of affordable but not both yet.
- colour printing is very limited in terms of strength and quality. There isn't a material that can be accurately coloured and printed in fine detail. Nobody yet has built a hybrid 3D print/surface printing machine although in theory it might be possible
- Multi-material printing is not generally available so you still have some assembly work to do. That is currently amplified by the fact you need different materials for detail and for strength.
It's only part of the story however - very small "home CNC" is becoming more and more practical and also fill some of the gaps.
If we get to the point where you can 3D print a model to good standards in the right basic colours it begins to get somewhere. Before the advent of the modern pad printers it was usual to print a lot of models in the right colour plastic for each part and then fit them together. For many liveries (BR blue, maroon, etc) that's a actually a good basis and then needs fairly limited decal work, or pad printing that is on a flattish surface and easy to do.
From a technology perspective using 3D printing and a few other processes today you could 3D print the equivalent of the pre Blue-Ribband Farish Mark 1 coaches except for the wheels and coupling mounts to about the same standard, and in the UK you could print the sides although you might struggle to find someone who can get quite the fineness the late China production has.
Unfortunately the price at the moment would be a vastly too high.
It's slowly changing - 3D print has passed white metal for small roof details like ventilators, and it'll keep improving.
The plastic moulders are also doing things to cut costs - from going back to moulded on handrails to using more machinery for the job. If you look at the later Bachmann models it appears they are at least partly assembled now using some kind of pick and place machinery. They use lots of very small mouldings that must have been machine fitted to meet the pricing. Count the number of mouldings on the voyager for example remembering each internal seat is a separate part!
There are some other things going on as well in terms of producing cheaper moulds for plastic and combining 3D print mastering with other techniques.
My guess is that as with just about everything else no one technology will be the whole answer. Even today RTR "plastic" locos are a mix of multiple plastics, turned brass, etched metal, die cast parts etc.
Alan
Model Power MFG (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LEZB28IbR0#)
this should put you through to the Model Power factory China, making plane kits ....
there is also a vidd on train manufacture if you can find it ???
Quote from: EtchedPixels on April 28, 2014, 10:23:27 AM
3D print is only half the story - at least for locos - you can't 3D print motors 8)
...yet! Give it another 10-20 years.
Agree with your points though. I believe that for kits we are already pretty much at the point where 3D printing is displacing white metal and resin. It's also not too far from challenging etched metal for fine detail.
RTR is another game entirely though, as you say. Until there is a machine which can avoid expensive assembly and painting costs 3D printing won't offer much of a benefit over existing methods.