Apologies if this is in the wrong place ( i did look but couldnt really see a rolling stock bit) but i was wonder if people could furnish me with some train lengths to aid planning.
I'm primarily after
2+8 Hst
36 Wagon MGR plus loco eg 56
37/47 etc plus 5 coach
37/47 etc plus 8 coach
158 2 car length
loco plus 10TEA bogie tanks
As i havent got any stock it does make planning a little difficult to do so any help would be appreciated.
Thanks
Rather than list the lengths per train type use this :
Locomotive (Class 37 / 47) = 14cm
Locomotive (Class 56 / 60 / 66) = 15cm
HST Power Car = 13cm
Mark 1 / 2 coach = 15cm
Mark 3 coach = 17cm
HAA wagon = 6cm
HTA wagon = 12cm
TEA wagon = 12cm
Thanks, that was the other way i was thinking of doing it. ;D
Richard
I can give you the exact length of a 2+8 HST ;)
(http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/sprintexnet/Images/res%20090521%20HST%20length.JPG)
Paul
Thanks, thats perfect. And in the right colour scheme too!
Richard
Of course it's the right colour scheme, is there any other??? ;D
EDIT: OK, BR blue 'n' yellow or NatEx silver/white at a push ;o)
Paul
Quote from: Sprintex on September 17, 2011, 10:31:03 PM
Of course it's the right colour scheme, is there any other???
I currently have three HSTs, INTERCITY, GNER, and Virgin Trains
However they are all different lengths, even the two 2+8
Probably coupling length. Amazing how a few mm can add up. No i maintain swallow is the only livery hsts should be seen in!
Richard
I am a bit puzzled by "train lengths".
A few months ago i brought the "farish colliery set", class 14 loco + 3 10ft steel-sided mineral wagons.
I was then given a whole load of "peco wagon kits" by a club member; 2 (10ft) bolster wagons, 2 (10ft) steel-sided mineral wagons, 3 (10ft) plank-sided mineral wagons & 1 (15ft) low-sided plank wagon.
Since then i have been trying various combinations of wagons but the loco only looks right with the following combinations.
Loco + 3 wagons (from the set) or loco + 5 wagons (peco 10ft) or loco + 1 (15ft) low-sided plank wagon & 2 (10ft) bolster wagons.
Is it just me or could there be a reason why only these combinations look right?
Reuben.
Hi Reuben,
I am sure this is just a perspective thing in that the Class 14 is a relatively small loco so to see it pulling a long train seems to stretch the imagination a bit. Maybe someone will know a prototypically correct length train for that class.
Hi Reuben, for only 3 to 5 wagons this loco seems a bit large. There are pictures around showing class 14 with more wagons.
http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/gallery/image/2282-woodhorn-class-14-empties-lynemouth-to-ashington-19th-oct-85jpg/ (http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/gallery/image/2282-woodhorn-class-14-empties-lynemouth-to-ashington-19th-oct-85jpg/)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/12a_kingmoor_klickr/5758251665/# (http://www.flickr.com/photos/12a_kingmoor_klickr/5758251665/#)
Should the train length be related to the tractive effort of the locomotive? I assume that there is some sort of compliation around rolling resistance, gradients etc. but the load that a train can pull must be less than its tractive effort isn't it?
So if you google the load + Tare weight of you wagon(s). You also google the total tractive effort of the locomotive. If you divide Tractive Effort by Wagon weight it should tell you how many wagons you can pull...
All you experts out there is this basically right?
Quote from: newportnobby on June 10, 2012, 08:56:42 PM
Hi Reuben,
I am sure this is just a perspective thing in that the Class 14 is a relatively small loco so to see it pulling a long train seems to stretch the imagination a bit. Maybe someone will know a prototypically correct length train for that class.
On Britsh rail it's hard to tell. They were essentially ordered to replace the army of pannier tanks just at the time that
- all the small mines closed killed by mechanisation and scaling
- all the big mines went (or were dragged) into MGR operation not little rakes of wagons
- the unions and BR managed to get as far as 'ok the guard can go in the back cab if there are two'
- everyone realised that freight should be moving at higher speeds
So they pretty much arrived and went in the bargain bin where the NCB and British Steel had lots of them, because they were slow (40mph max) and under powered for anything useful on BR. They were only 650hp and quite light. How big a train anything can haul is of course as much down to weight, and braking as anything else - plus the gradient on the line.
On the Gwili they seemed to have no trouble shifting 4 mark1s and an 03 hanging on the tail. On the Dean Forest they work similar loads and that's pretty steep. Not sure what the translates to in wagons, you'd have to look at the tonnage and if they were full/empty.
I've not seen any useful images of them on the NCB to count wagons but that would probably give a better idea since the NCB don't appear to have believed in underloading 8)
The other major low power diesel class was the class 20s but instead they were pretty much tied permanently as pairs and used as a 2000hp 2 cab loco, and proved to be incredibly reliable (and still are).
I think i understand what you guys are talking about and thank you for your replies.
I tend to use the following as a rough guide for train length.
I have 2 pieces of "peco double straight track" mounted on a small length of wood,
each track section will hold "1 coach" or "5 - 6 wagons", depending on wagon length.
So i tend to use 3 wagons with a shunter (class 03/04/08), 5 wagons with a small loco
(class 14 - 33), 10 wagons with big loco's (class 37 onwards). Then for coaches i tend to
use 5 in a rake.
Perhaps its a visual thing but these lengths seem about right to me.
Reuben.
It was said of the 14s during their time working the docks branch in Hull, that it only took one of them to move any train you wanted however it would need at least three of them to stop it!
Quote from: Reuben on June 11, 2012, 06:11:37 AM
So i tend to use 3 wagons with a shunter (class 03/04/08), 5 wagons with a small loco
(class 14 - 33), 10 wagons with big loco's (class 37 onwards). Then for coaches i tend to
use 5 in a rake.
Some of it depends on space on the layout what looks right. As scenically its oten quite compressed shorter trains often look right IMHO.
In reality a reasonably level site a small shunter can happily shift 10 coach trains although it's not going anywhere in a hurry.
Class 08 08644 + 50034 shunting Penzance Station 4th May 1984 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymkZ2KrN7XA#)
7-8 coaches was a typical limit for the smaller diesels again depending upon the grades. Somewhat less for the class 31/4's which were known as "Pedalo"'s for good reason and couldn't really handle more than 4 or 5 on their own.
Quote from: Greybeema on June 10, 2012, 09:53:57 PM
Should the train length be related to the tractive effort of the locomotive? I assume that there is some sort of compliation around rolling resistance, gradients etc. but the load that a train can pull must be less than its tractive effort isn't it?
So if you google the load + Tare weight of you wagon(s). You also google the total tractive effort of the locomotive. If you divide Tractive Effort by Wagon weight it should tell you how many wagons you can pull...
All you experts out there is this basically right?
Sorry no. That would tell you how much load the train could lift straight up in the air!
The tractive effort is the force the locomotive can exert, as would be measured by a spring balance connected to the rear coupling. On level track the tractive effort must overcome the rolling resistance of the train, which depends on weight but also speed and is difficult to work out. On an ascending gradient it must also provide extra force which depends on the total weight of the train but also the steepness of the gradient.
Particularly for trains without continuous brakes brake force is also important, as suggested by a previous poster. One of the reasons Class 40s lasted so long, despite their huge weight and limited power, was that they were good for stopping long unfitted trains.
Basically the maximum load has to be worked out for each loco type on each route, and this information is available to freight train operators but not to the general public.
Quote from: B757-236GT on September 17, 2011, 10:34:19 AM
Apologies if this is in the wrong place ( i did look but couldnt really see a rolling stock bit) but i was wonder if people could furnish me with some train lengths to aid planning.
I'm primarily after
2+8 Hst
36 Wagon MGR plus loco eg 56
37/47 etc plus 5 coach
37/47 etc plus 8 coach
158 2 car length
loco plus 10TEA bogie tanks
As i havent got any stock it does make planning a little difficult to do so any help would be appreciated.
Thanks
Rich,
If you remember when we were planning the replacement fiddle yards for Mandlebury, now Slutters Gussett, we worked out the following:
HST 2 + 8 = Approx 60" - depending on coupling length
56 + 36 x HAA's = 96" - depending on coupling length
47 + 10 MK2's = Approx 60""
And so most of fiddle yard raods were approximately 60" in length with 2 of them being 96" in length to accomodate the MGR's.
Thats if my memory serves me well, which it probably doesn't ;) ;) But I'll have a look when I get home tonight as I'm sure I've got the Fiddle Yard details at home.
Cheers
Neal.
Edwin,
Thats great - I know for sure now, just count the wagons in the photo...
Quote from: edwin_m on June 11, 2012, 12:08:21 PM
Basically the maximum load has to be worked out for each loco type on each route, and this information is available to freight train operators but not to the general public.
Actually its available to anyone bored enough to send Network Rail a freedom of information request 8)
Hello Guys,
My final observations on this subject and then i will leave it alone.
I also want to apologise for raising and old subject.
I have just extended the track to run all the way around my 4ft x 6ft "L shape" layout,
think i now have about 24ft of running length.
My class 14 now looks perfectly fine circling the track with all of the wagons (7 x 10ft & 1 x 15ft).
Reuben.
That might be down to the "rule of thirds", which I don't think anyone's mentioned yet, but I've seen in a few articles elsewhere. In short, if the train takes up more than a third of the scenic section it's in, it tends to look "too big". Obviously what your eye brackets as a "section" can vary, and stations *ought* to be more crowded than countryside, etc., but I can see the sense as a starting point.
Just been reading through this thread and have to say that on the measurement front,I have two hst's in blue/grey that are in a 2+8 configuration.My storage yards were lengthened to accomodate these two trains.
In each direction,I have two outer storage roads of equal length to accomodate these and a long freight train.These being a MGR train and a tta tank train,both are 22 wagon rakes and are a tad longer than the hst's but fit the storage road comfortably.I am going to add a TEA tank rake at a later date with the potential for on wagon to accomodate a sound decoder if I cannot stuff it into the loco at the front,but thats a different subject for another thread.
And,Slutters Gussett.
What a fantastic name for a layout.I would love to see the cameo's on that one.
And the layout. :evil:
Pete
:Class37: :NGaugersRule: