I felt prompted to begin this new thread after reading a letter in a recent BRM about the need for accuracy when it comes to signalling a layout. The writer was critisizing the fact some people don't paint all the parts of their signals correctly. I know we can all be rivet countish at times but generally I feel it takes away from the enjoyment of running our own imaginary railways. Railway modelling will always need a degree of imagination and so it should. I think magazines can do a lot to foster these opinions with reviewers becoming more and more pedantic. I still enjoy watching a train going around an oval on the carpet personally, even though I have a fully functioning layout. The sheer enjoyment James May was experiencing on one of his Toy Stories at his non-scenic train set can be a lesson to us all.
For me, I like to see people who dedicate their time to making a model as accurate as they can, and they can look superb. However, in 5 years time certain will look dated when a new item is manufactured, or new materials become available. For me personally I like everything to look in scale, and I'm not fussed about weathering and too much detail. I enjoy everyone's efforts on here, and the fact that people have a go at something is what should be commended.
I have nothing against rivet counters so long as they don't get stuck into those that are not that way inclined, by the same token I don't think people should get stuck into those that are perfectionists.
Obviously we all get a kick out of this great hobby or we wouldn't be involved in it, I agree with Chris its nice to see a scratch built loco or whatever that is as close to perfect as possible but I also enjoy watching a Thomas layout just as much.
@Tank- I agree with that. I think trying your best is always a good policy. In one of the current mags there is an amazing shed scene and the author of the article's top tip is to be happy with your own modelling. I think that is a great piece of advice as we all have differing abilities and differing standards. I just don't like the overly critical approach. The person who is an expert on signalling will have areas he is not such an expert on and may find other people feeling the same about his work.
@oldrailbug - it was the critical approach that annoyed me about the letter. I also like to see detailed models.
Quote from: Elvinley on September 15, 2011, 11:25:44 AM
I think trying your best is always a good policy.
Absolutely agree with that.
It is the small details that make a layout look bad for me. Lamp posts on platforms not upright, back scenes that don't join up very well, excessive speed when shunting, trains coming to a dead stop at stations and signals, the sort of things that are not realistic.
There is a place in our hobby for extreme prototype modellers, just don't sit them next to me please :evil:
There are a wide range of factors that decree how someone models, ability, budget, space, resources and research materials are probably the biggest.
Ultimately it is your model railway, it is up to you what you do with it and you should not be swayed by the blinkered views of anyone else irrespective of what camp they are in. And if you want good technical advice you can always join an excellent, informative and friendly forum to garner such advice :NGF:
I think it may have been oldrailbug who had scratchbuilt some wacky locos, it was so refreshing, he had created a whole new world, and sometimes you need things like that to keep your modelling juices flowing
There will always be the perfectionists who wish to recreate a perfect miniature masterpiece. That is their wish and we have to respect it. My stance is that I'm not too bothered about the intricate details, as long as it looks OK - it is OK. If I have a rake of 6 x MK1 maroon coaches I really am not fussed that the correct prototypical carriages are in that rake. I have a train of 19 x 21t hoppers but do I really care the running numbers are all the same? Not on your life! Am I too worried the head code showing on my Hymek is not correct - nah.
As long as it looks OK and pleases me, I'm happy 8)
In his biography of Dr Johnson, Boswell once observed that Irishmen suffer from 'a hurry of ideas'. With that caveat in mind, here goes!
All modelling involves a compromise - even a 5" gauge steam loco may require overscale cab fittings in order to be employable, and in the smaller scales we have to live with the fact that our locos are propelled by small electric motors - hardly prototypical!
There is a sliding scale of accuracy and modelling needs to be a broad church and hopefully we will all move up the scale as we spend more time in the hobby. But it's a matter of personal preference - and respect for each others' efforts. There will always be those who are better at detail and scenery, or whose bent is to model a particular branch as it was at 09:30 on 29th June 1935 - we can applaud their efforts and be inspired by them.
And, in their own way, isn't the kid blasting out 'Three Blind Mice' on a recorder a musician just as much as Julian Lloyd Webber? You might not want a CD of it, but good on them for trying.
I'd rather see someone modelling 'badly' than not at all, which is why I do it................ ;D
Now, where's my recorder?....................................................
Rivet counting is to me part of enjoying the hobby. I'm really pleased my LB&SCR ballast wagon is (or should be) rivet perfect and I had great fun doing that.
What there isn't a place IMHO for is the 'and that makes me superior' attitude you now and then find. Most of the rivet counters I know are not like that though. They are often the ones writing detailing articles or demonstrating techniques and suggesting books and sources to others.
Alan
I'm all for enjoying the hobby as if you don't enjoy a hobby, why do it?
That said, some people get their enjoyment from researching/modelling the minutest detail.
And good luck to them.
Personally I go for the overall look. But that is probably just the artist in me! :smiley-laughing:
Capturing the atmosphere and character of what I'm modelling is the most important part.
I keep everything in scale rather than to scale.
If it looks right to me it is right to me! :thumbsup:
Yes, I am a bit of a perfectionist but only in achieving the above.
Modelling the drivers mug of tea with two lumps of sugar beside it?
Am I bothered... :sleep:
Quote from: EtchedPixels on September 15, 2011, 01:23:17 PM
Most of the rivet counters I know are not like that though. They are often the ones writing detailing articles or demonstrating techniques and suggesting books and sources to others.
Alan
And all our modelling hobbies would be a poorer world without them :( Experience is always welcome whatever we're doing from those who have boldly gone before. Well said, sir.
Quote from: EtchedPixels on September 15, 2011, 01:23:17 PM
What there isn't a place IMHO for is the 'and that makes me superior' attitude you now and then find. Most of the rivet counters I know are not like that though. They are often the ones writing detailing articles or demonstrating techniques and suggesting books and sources to others.
If I may add my thoughts, I think EP has hit the nail on the head.
If I'm modelling a layout set in 1988, and someone says to me "that loco had the buffer beams repainted in nov 1987, you're wrong" it would get my back right up.
But if he said it as "I saw a photo of that loco in jan 1988 and the buffers had been repainted, would you me to e-mail you a copy" I would be chuffed to add to my info.
So basically what I suppose I'm saying is that it's HOW it is said, whether to demean or offer help.
I don't PERSONNALY worry if there are the right number of rivets on my ballast wagon, but I have nothing but respect for the person who can make that model an exact miniature, and in truth envy for their knowledge, eyesight and manual dexterity.
So I will continue to enjoy the products of others efforts, but if I cannot achieve the same quality then I can live with it, if all else fails my layout will be run under Rule 1.
Perhaps we use the wrong term, should "rivet counters" be replaced with "nit pickers" ?
Illegitimae non carborundum ..........................................don't let the b------s grind you down.
rant over, where's the kettle
class37025
Good comments from everyone. I think that the attitude is the crux of the matter. As long as the modeller is enjoying their hobby rather than knocking other people's attempts, that is fine. Nothing is perfect and no model can be a perfect representation. You could find fault in any model. I think as soon as things stop being enjoyable, but more obsessive, then it is time to step back a little.
Whilst completely understanding the logic/reasoning behind the OP, it is probably a misnomer to ask 'Rivet counting v actually enjoying your hobby', as it is clear you can do both rather than choose one or t'other. It is a great topic and I am enjoying seeing who does one or the other or both, but as Elvinley has said, it comes down to attitude and the way things are said.
I have absolutely no objection to anyone calling me a to**er, as long as they are prepared to tell me why I am a to**er and debate the fact. Then I can make my own mind up if I am one or not :smiley-laughing:
Quote from: Irish Padre on September 15, 2011, 12:29:50 PM
respect for each others' efforts
Absolutely spot on Padre
................................. now step away from the recorder mister :evil:
:smiley-laughing:
A river counter wouldn't know where to start on critiquing my (allegedly) German layout, which resembles no railway on earth, unless there's a hitherto undiscovered sundaela desert somewhere with a railway running across it. Barely a grain of ballast, childish signals and temporary platforms (mostly British) that have been in situ over a year already. :thumbsdown:
I know exactly which stock has the wrong number of rivets, but don't have the resources, confidence, skills or patience to correct them, I'm afraid. The fact they are wrong doesn't detract from my enjoyment, and I can barely see the faults once they're on the track anyway. 8)
One thing I am a stickler for is realistic track plans. I ::) at poorly situated facing points, :'( at unworkable sidings, and :o at dangerous or unnecessary duplicative trackage and pointwork. Sorry, just a hobby-horse of mine.
Memo to self - Tadpole under "actually enjoying his hobby" ;D
Good man :thumbsup:
A link to a rivet counters heaven. :-)
http://www.archertransfers.com/AR88066.html
Quote from: newportnobby on September 15, 2011, 03:13:58 PM
Whilst completely understanding the logic/reasoning behind the OP, it is probably a misnomer to ask 'Rivet counting v actually enjoying your hobby', as it is clear you can do both rather than choose one or t'other. It is a great topic and I am enjoying seeing who does one or the other or both, but as Elvinley has said, it comes down to attitude and the way things are said.
I have absolutely no objection to anyone calling me a to**er, as long as they are prepared to tell me why I am a to**er and debate the fact. Then I can make my own mind up if I am one or not :smiley-laughing:
Yes, I know it is pleasurable for some to get it right down to the last detail and I fully understand that. I always try my best to get things to look right, but am aware of my shortcomings. I would rather have fun than get things right 100 percent of the time and loose sleep over stupid little details.
I just feel that some people will feel intimidated by those who are as pedantic as the person writing in BRM. At first when I read the letter, I thought about my layout and the signals he had mentioned. Some people would probably feel pressurized to go and change their signals.
As I work on the real railways I see the real thing happen daily and I know that I go against real practise on my railway. I also know that so do 99 per cent of railway modellers. I have stopped worrying about that sort of thing and get on with having fun with my hobby.
Quote from: poliss on September 15, 2011, 07:24:21 PM
A link to a rivet counters heaven. :-)
http://www.archertransfers.com/AR88066.html
Now I know I've lost it - I'm seeing black dots before my eyes (falling debris or rivets) :smiley-laughing:
Just had to put in my twopenneth, I would like my layout to be realistic, but it has to be enjoyable and up and running as soon as possible given time and finance considerations. So I'll press on using code 80 rail (I had alot from my last layout atempt 30 years ago) and endeavour to get it looking right). I've posted a layout plan in "layout planing" and a pic of my start at track laying, as soon as I can think of a name I'll start posting in "Layout construction". I have started taking "Model Rail" and can only marvel at the quality of the layouts the photos are so lifelike something beyond my capabilities. With best wishes to all that to what ever degree of modeling enjoy it.
Code 80 can look fine if weathered nicely. I used it on my railway and I have seen others where it looks good like Batty Moor.
Quote from: tadpole on September 15, 2011, 05:54:56 PM
One thing I am a stickler for is realistic track plans. I ::) at poorly situated facing points, :'( at unworkable sidings, and :o at dangerous or unnecessary duplicative trackage and pointwork. Sorry, just a hobby-horse of mine.
I think this is a valid point - Everybody has their own particular 'field of interest' which they have good knowlage of and will soon spot other peoples mistakes in these fields. I HATE poor running with a vengence :evil: and if I see other peoples locos/stock running poorly I want to grab it and attack it with a screwdriver (ask elvinley ! :smiley-laughing:), on our own we can all be obsesive about something, but together on the forum we become a great database of which i'm proud to be part of ! :NGF:
Back to Elvinley's original point - some of the popular model mag writers do come over a bit too strong, must be quite intimidating to new modellers of any scale, i'm sure this is something the Model railway hobby could do without, or maybe a new mag to cater for the more demanding modeller ?
Quite simply, it's your layout so do what pleases you.
If , like me, you model a Cornish branchline scenario who cares if you run a loco (eg a Teddy Bear 0-6-0) which was alien to that particular part of the country.
It should be about fun and enjoyment. If you want absolute accuracy then fine , if you also want a fantasy layout then that's fine too.
Quote from: 4x2ybecauseican on September 15, 2011, 08:28:11 PM
Quote from: tadpole on September 15, 2011, 05:54:56 PM
One thing I am a stickler for is realistic track plans. I ::) at poorly situated facing points, :'( at unworkable sidings, and :o at dangerous or unnecessary duplicative trackage and pointwork. Sorry, just a hobby-horse of mine.
I think this is a valid point - Everybody has their own particular 'field of interest' which they have good knowlage of and will soon spot other peoples mistakes in these fields. I HATE poor running with a vengence :evil: and if I see other peoples locos/stock running poorly I want to grab it and attack it with a screwdriver (ask elvinley ! :smiley-laughing:), on our own we can all be obsesive about something, but together on the forum we become a great database of which i'm proud to be part of ! :NGF:
Back to Elvinley's original point - some of the popular model mag writers do come over a bit too strong, must be quite intimidating to new modellers of any scale, i'm sure this is something the Model railway hobby could do without, or maybe a new mag to cater for the more demanding modeller ?
Model Railway Journal?
Quote from: Elvinley on September 15, 2011, 09:14:05 PM
Quote from: 4x2ybecauseican on September 15, 2011, 08:28:11 PM
Quote from: tadpole on September 15, 2011, 05:54:56 PM
One thing I am a stickler for is realistic track plans. I ::) at poorly situated facing points, :'( at unworkable sidings, and :o at dangerous or unnecessary duplicative trackage and pointwork. Sorry, just a hobby-horse of mine.
I think this is a valid point - Everybody has their own particular 'field of interest' which they have good knowlage of and will soon spot other peoples mistakes in these fields. I HATE poor running with a vengence :evil: and if I see other peoples locos/stock running poorly I want to grab it and attack it with a screwdriver (ask elvinley ! :smiley-laughing:), on our own we can all be obsesive about something, but together on the forum we become a great database of which i'm proud to be part of ! :NGF:
Back to Elvinley's original point - some of the popular model mag writers do come over a bit too strong, must be quite intimidating to new modellers of any scale, i'm sure this is something the Model railway hobby could do without, or maybe a new mag to cater for the more demanding modeller ?
Model Railway Journal?
Ah... Forgot about them...! :-[
I think its all pretty funny, so long as people enjoy what they are doing thats what really counts, as a modeller I find every day life stressful enough so I am damn sure I am not going to stress if the springs on my GP7s are to short ;D ;D ;D
Quote from: oldrailbug on September 15, 2011, 10:16:26 PM
I think its all pretty funny, so long as people enjoy what they are doing thats what really counts, as a modeller I find every day life stressful enough so I am damn sure I am not going to stress if the springs on my GP7s are to short ;D ;D ;D
I've got a GP7, what springs.....??? (only joking ! :smiley-laughing: :smiley-laughing: :smiley-laughing:)
Quote from: 4x2ybecauseican on September 15, 2011, 10:18:54 PM
Quote from: oldrailbug on September 15, 2011, 10:16:26 PM
I think its all pretty funny, so long as people enjoy what they are doing thats what really counts, as a modeller I find every day life stressful enough so I am damn sure I am not going to stress if the springs on my GP7s are to short ;D ;D ;D
I've got a GP7, what springs.....??? (only joking ! :smiley-laughing: :smiley-laughing: :smiley-laughing:)
Thats why I think its all funny because I wouldn't have a clue if they are to short or to long :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Just to add to the point,I was part of an exhibition team from our local model railway club that exhibited 2 layouts at a small event in Sheffield earlier this year which catered for mainly bus enthusiasts.
Our club had a n gauge shunting layout which,obviously,I would prefer to operate,but as its a club,I mainly operated the oo scale LMS steam layout with two others.Now this isn't my chosen era so I know next to nowt about LMS but I wasn't all that bothered so I carried on anyway.
As the day went on and the room temperature rose,the layout started doing things that hindered the running of the layout and as someone who likes to see good smooth running,I was a bit frustrated by this but I persevered with it all.If anyone thinks there are too many rivet counters in model railways should look at bus enthusiasts.They are a breed apart I can tell you,and,furthermore,they know lots of stuff thats inconsequential to a great many of us but like to air their views without any thought to anyone else.Even after being told that this was only my second exhibition as an operator,not knowing the layout intimately,not knowing LMS practices and the layout playing up due to no ventilation it still didn't deter them.
I think if people don't want to just enjoy the endeavours of other peoples time and labour then why bother coming to see us make a hash of things.
Habe a go yourselves and put your money where your mouth is.
My guess is they won't cos someone may be critical of their own masterpieces if they indeed have one,that is.
Mine is purely fictional and at some point may go to an event that may be hosted by our MRC in the future,who knows so as long as it runs well that'll be fine by me.
Also,is it just me or can you tell the rivet counters that operate layouts but have no stock movement for ages,meaning people just move on to the next layout and see lots of train movement which may not he prototypical,but thats what people want to see.
I've got nothing against rivet counters,they are people like you and me,but keep it to yourselves,tell your mates in the pub thay I'm rubbish at playing trains or some details not right,just don't air your views to us like you would if you'd just ordered a prime fillet steak and got a burger instead.
Rant over,sorry if I may have upset someone,goodnight. :Dapol: :GraFar: :NGAUGE: ;)
I feel your pain ! I work in the bus industry, and have had many arguments with 'bus enthusiasts'. One guy told me we had new buses coming 4 weeks before they were delivered - you can't pass wind with these guys finding out !!! I'm planning to exibit my layout when it's finished, i think i'll need some training in the 'biteing my tounge' department ! ;D
Quote from: Zunnan on September 16, 2011, 12:24:21 AM
Someone heavily involved with the mags basically said if its not good enough it gets photoshopped to look good enough.
Another illusion shattered! Bit like a woman without makeup then!
Whoops, didn't get the lady wifes permission to say that
Quote from: MinZaPint on September 16, 2011, 03:40:05 PM
Another illusion shattered! Bit like a woman without makeup then!
Whoops, didn't get the lady wifes permission to say that
:smiley-laughing:Another NGF member in the dogbox - we're getting quite a collection ;D