I'm just wondering if i'm alone on this but, why do i feel like the only one who thinks DCC is being pushed way too hard. I don't doubt that having the ability to turn lights on and off is great and your shiney new HST with valenta sounds is awesome, but i think the manufacturers are keen to push this technology, not for the good of the hobby, but to make money (i know this sounds obvious). Take sound decoders, at most the basic components cost £5-£10, yet can double the price of a loco. I've seen just plain decoders sell for £50... why ? To be honest i really don't see the point in DCC...
After 30 mins the sounds start to drive me crazy....
Yes, you can control many loco's at the same time - I'm rubbish at multitasking, so disaster is only round the corner !
Most users say their loco and coach lights are great - but have no other lights on their entire layout !
But most of all - The Cost. By the time i've bought the system, decoders, point decoders, boosters it's getting close to at least £200 (depending on number of loco's and size of layout). Now this may surprise you... I like DCC, But i see it as a luxury item to add to that wish list that needs lottery funding :smiley-laughing: I prefer to use DC as it is cheap, simple, reliable - I just wish that people would not push DCC like it's some sort of new must have games console, all i want is to watch my trains go round and round without feeling that i've been left out...
Rant over ! ;D
DCC has been around for 20 years now so it's not exactly new. Some of the benefits. Better slow speed control. More realistic control, you can set your loco up to behave exactly like the real thing if you want to. Isn't that what we're trying to do? Make a miniature representaion of the real thing?
Why are sound decoders so expensive? It's not just about the components. Someone has to record the sounds of the real thing to put on the decoders in the first place.
Moving locos from one oval to another is simpler. Layout wiring is simpler, although I do believe some people like all that spaghetti knitting.
As for cost. I don't think my DCC equipment has cast more than a DC setup because I bought all of it on Ebay.
My layout design means i dont need to drive different locos on the same line. So i went for DC. However i dont think the saving on chips for my 50 locos has saved me all that much because i've bought a laptop and CTI controllers. The slow speed running is great amd everything from point and signals to the loco speed and inertia can be automated or done manually on the laptop. I dont regret not choosing DCC.
But you are DCC, it's just that you have your Digital Command and Control system on the other side of the rails instead of having decoders in the locos.
please o knowledgeable ones,
but what is CTI ?
I think I can just about get my head around DCC, but how do you have the same effect without chips, or do you still have to have them ?
:-[
What is CTI ? - An overview of the CTI system.
http://www.cti-electronics.com/whatscti.htm
poliss,
many thanks for the link, reading now
:computersmile:
My layout is all 12V DC. The 12V supply is controlled by small control boards that are supplied by CTI Electronics. Their 'Smartcab' controls inertia by measuring "back EMF" (i think) which tells the control board how fast the loco is going or how much load the motor is under. It's clever and complicated but for the operator it's dead simple as all the electronics does it for you.
So while there are complex electronics involved there is no AC current and no direct command signal. All locos on the same line get the same voltage delivered. That doesn't actually mean they necessarily run at the same speed though, but genarally i can run a double header without thinking about it (if i dont have a dummy to hand).
All in all, my plan is to have a completely automated layout that runs itself (station stops and signals etc) unless i feel like playing along.
Another section needed for computer control?
Quote from: poliss on September 14, 2011, 02:38:12 AM
Another section needed for computer control?
and don't forget the dummies guide ;)
will have another look at the link at home, as our IT police limit what we can do / download, but it really does look a fantastic system.
but so does DCC, so it gets even more of a choice ...... my head hurts !
thanks again
alan
class37025
I am old fashioned I guess so DC will do me just fine, it has been said before but I like to control my locos not programme them, having said that its to each his own and whatever people choose to do I hope they are happy and getting the most out of this great hobby.
some years ago, when I was modelling [excuse the language] HO US outline, I did look at DCC, it was so impressive what was being done over there, and each month seemed to bring even more when MR arrived.
but in the end I stayed with DC, as my only real reason for the advantages of DCC was to be able to add and detach helpers to coal trains, and after much thought and trial and error I achieved the same effect with carefully placed track sections and a seperate controller.
certainly more spaghetti, but at least I could see what did what, and I could troubleshoot it when [definitely not if] it went wrong.
while cost has to come into all our decisions, I think it comes down to what you are used to, and more importantly, comfortable with.
I will most likely be operating my layout either on my own, or with either my son in law or an mate from my service days, and I suspect that we'll just want to drive the trains, and I think we'll end up using the handheld controllers on my Morley vesta, and following the trains round the shed, throwing point and section switches as we do, and most importantly ----enjoying ourselves .
perhaps I'm just getting too old for all this electricery, now where did I put that 1,000 page dummies guide to programing the DVD recorder??? :-[
Wow... :o
That's a lot of responces over night ! Glad to see i've got a bit of support, I'm not deniying that DCC is better - of course it is ! I understand that it's now well established and popular with newcomers and that can only be a good thing, however I prefer DC, and my point was that I would like to continue with DC without the feeling of being left behind - After all we're here to enjoy the hobby aren't we ?
I totally agree with everything said but at the end of the day - each to their own. As a DC old f**t, I do however feel I am paying over the odds for a loco that, to be honest, I'm going to take all the non essential gubbins out of and add some weight to get the thing to run ::)
Having said that, I would like to see how to computerise things and would welcome a separate board and some tutorials.
I must get myself into this century somehow :(
DCC has its plus points and its minuses. It's definitely better for controlling modern image models for light control. Sound is a rich mans plaything in my opinion - way too expensive at the moment for most. (600 quid for an HST anyone?!?!) Also I think it actually sounds audibly poor - with crummy small speakers held within the locos you don't get the effect of a real loco IMHO - it just sounds like a toy to me.
I don't understand some people's seemingly blinkered desire to have DCC though - some seem to think immediately "Digital = better" even when they are constructing a simple oval layout that won't benefit much from multi-loco control and can easily be wired in DC.
In short, DCC seems best suited to large complex layouts where you can make best use of all its advantages.
For me it's simply too costly to convert my fleet to DCC - I'd rather spend my time scratchbuilding than DCC converting/fault finding, and I'm not a fan of locos fitted with DCC where you can see the decoders 'hiding' in the cabs or suchlike - some of my kitbuilt models simply do not have space for a decoder anywhere. A lot can be done in DC with cab control and suchlike, if I really wanted sound I'd consider doing something more complicated with much beefier higher quality speakers mounted under the layout or suchlike. And whilst DCC can help make things run better, you still need to start out with a loco that runs well on DC - DCC won't cure fundamental assembly, design or QC issues with a model.
One aspect of DCC I do like and am keen to explore is DCC turnout control (but retaining DC power for the track) - this seems a great way of cutting down the huge amount of wiring otherwise required to motorised a large number of turnouts - instead you can just run a bus line around the layout of a few wires. This seems highly desirable for robustness and minimising connections at baseboard joins.
Cheers
Alan
I think DC vs DCC debate can be likened to a standard model car with few extras as compared to a deluxe version of the same thing, basically they both do the same thing but one has a few goodies chucked in so the driver has more buttons to push.
After working in the HiFi trade and also a Pawnbroking shop for quite a few years I know people love to twiddle knobs and push buttons, no good for me though as my old Valve Amp only has a volume switch and mode selector.
Quote from: poliss on September 14, 2011, 02:38:12 AM
Another section needed for computer control?
I would be happy to post some 'tutorial' threads under computer control. It might be interrsting just to people to see how it's done and maybe even consider it.
To me it depends on the layout - a little one train running branch gains nothing unless you want sound/lights. I run DC on most microlayout stuff but there are cases like depot layouts where DCC is helpful.
One of the best descriptions I ever saw was that DC is control from the signal box, DCC is driving the trains. Both have their place and neither IMHO is wrong/right. For the main layout I'm a DCC fan - I like sound, I like computer control, I like lighting and I like tech toys 8)
The advantage with DCC on small layouts is being able to set CV65, kickstart. This enables you to start your loco at a crawl. http://www.loystoys.com/info/kick-start.html
Quote from: poliss on September 14, 2011, 02:22:32 AM
What is CTI ? - An overview of the CTI system.
http://www.cti-electronics.com/whatscti.htm
Thanks for posting this, Poliss. It looks superb but I'd love to see a practical demonstration on a DC layout as I'm also a computer numpty who trusts the damned things as far as I can throw the Blackpool Tower. Although I'm not exactly set in the clockwork age, I happen to like DC but CTI would add another dimension :-\
If i get time this weekend i will post some pics of my CTI sey up and show you how easy it is. If i get video to work i might even be able to show you the inertia function in action.
Quote from: Mustermark on September 14, 2011, 06:15:13 PM
If i get time this weekend i will post some pics of my CTI sey up and show you how easy it is. If i get video to work i might even be able to show you the inertia function in action.
Cheers, Mark. I hope you manage it as I will be really interested to see it in action. Even if you can just show a (numpty's) guide to how it's connected up will probably be a help :thumbsup: Is it available in the UK or just mail order from the good ole US of A please?
This thread has made me think a bit about whether DCC is really worth it for me. (Thanks for your comments btw) The thing that's bugging me is that you need two controllers in Dapol's 156. (I'm thinking about some sort of cable link with a tiny plug socket arrangement, so that you can just have one decoder (something like a micro USB, but I haven't been able to find a male - female pair))
I really like DCC and DCC control of the european models I have had in the past were great. I really liked lights on my locos. Even when they were stopped. I could flash the lights on a particular loco number, just to be sure that I had got the correct engine before I start driving it. I could set up accelleration and breaking. And I can add locos together on the same track. When my nephews visited and wanted to drive the trains, the max speed was already set up on the chip so they couldn't derail the train at the first corner. The only thing I'm not keen on is the sound. I was at the nthusists show a couple of weeks ago and there was a small DCC layout in a room with other small layouts but it was really noisy (like a noisy TV). If these models are 1:148, then the sound should be 1:148 too, so you would probably not hear it unless you were a mouse.
But now, with two unconverted british locos, I'm thinking whether to do this for the new layout. On the other hand, after reading the other posts, I think that the other ideas for DC control (cab control) could also do everything but the lights, sound, multiheading, and pre programmed acceleration. Wiring and control panels would be more complicated. ???
I like EP's quote about where you are driving the trains from. And I like the CTI information too. Somthing to think about ???
I'm a DC er. I've nowt against DCC and if I were starting out today I'd go down that route.
But after 25+ years of N gauging I doubt I ever will.
Most of my loco's are 20 years old at least and the last thing I want to do is start hacking them about!
The way I've always looked at DCC, regardless of scale or prototype modelled, is that the need for it increases with the number of trains/loco's that will be running on your layout at any one time.
So if you are modelling a country branchline, there's not really much you're going to get out of it.
If its a busy city terminus on the other hand, you will benefit from DCC.
Two extremes I know but its how I get round it in my head!
And as others have said, DCC is not new.
Zero One was DCC and thats been around since the 1970's!
Quote from: Miek on September 14, 2011, 10:10:12 PM
This thread has made me think a bit about whether DCC is really worth it for me. (Thanks for your comments btw) The thing that's bugging me is that you need two controllers in Dapol's 156. (I'm thinking about some sort of cable link with a tiny plug socket arrangement, so that you can just have one decoder (something like a micro USB, but I haven't been able to find a male - female pair))
If you can live with the stuff being wired together it is worth doing and wiring both the power and lights across the two cars, which also really improves power pick up of course. Most connectors are too rigid or too big so I've always put the connector join inside one vehicle so I can split them for maintenance but not usually. If you go this way use very fine black wire for the link and keep it low down. For the visual reason it looks like authentic train 'plumbing' and the practical reason that high up it is much more likely to cause problems on S bends and crossovers by pushing the stock sideways and toppling it.
Quote
layout in a room with other small layouts but it was really noisy (like a noisy TV). If these models are 1:148, then the sound should be 1:148 too, so you would probably not hear it unless you were a mouse.
Each to his/her own - they have a volume control CV !
As a new modeller, I plan to run DCC from the start, despite only starting with an oval. I plan on building (at some point!) an automated Terminus station, and DCC will make things alot easier when it comes to that! To me, it seems like DCC and do the more complicated stuff more easily.
I'm with DCC: my layout will eventually have around 50 points as it's a faithful copy of a real station, complete with scissors crossovers, single slips, two double junctions and diamonds. I would not have had a hope in hell of wiring that up for DC. Even if I could have done so the complexities involved in running more than one train at a time would have been well beyond my ability.
So for me it's DCC: yes it's more expensive but I accept that as something I can afford to bear (and no, I'm not affluent!). I do notice an improvement in the running with DCC over DC too.
Even if I'd been starting with a small layout I think I would still choose DCC, for the simpler wiring and better running. The sound aspect doesn't come into it with me: it would be nice to have in a quiet room but forget it at an exhibition - it's lost in the general background noise. As for DCC point operation, well I'm not into automatic route setting, etc., so I'll stick with stud and probe which works well (amazingly, given my lack of electrical expertise).
Fair play, sir. If I was starting from scratch I would maybe venture into DCC but I didn't so I can't. I dunno how much it costs to have a loco chipped but I have 43 so someone can do the math. ???
To me it seems that most people miss the point entirely. Whether you are arguing DC or DCC, steam or diesel, UK or continental, Southern or LNER N or OO Etc etc .
Surely the point is that additions to the hobby like DCC should be welcomed because they make the hobby richer. I really enjoy fiddling with computers but I'm not great on train recognition. This doesn't mean I'm any less an enthusiast. I enjoy my hobby for what I can get out of it. It is the multi-faceted approach of the hobby that makes it so interesting to so many. Our hobby has so many branches that it can seem we enjoy different hobbies, but surely these branches are all part of the same tree?
All of course in my very humble opinion.
Cheers
Kirky
Hi Kirky, I don't think people are necessarily missing the point as there are just too many factors to take into account. Certainly our hobby has to progress, and progress should be welcomed. However, someone like me who has spent over 20 years collecting locos, stock etc just cannot afford to make the change from DC to DCC. Apart from that I'm a complete pillock who thinks chips come in newspaper with saveloys ::) I do, however, want to move with the times so am really hoping to see more of the CTI that I can use with my DC stuff to give my set up more life. I would also like to see N gauge steamers with smoke but how much would I have to pay for all the conversions of current locos? I guess it's like a lot of electrical things - you buy something and within 6 months the next generation model comes out with all the bells and whistles you wish you had on the one you bought. To some extent I wish I was many years younger and was just starting out in our hobby as the ability to have the benefits of DCC such as coach/loco lighting at standstill is extremely desirable, but I have no wish to sell off what I have collected over many years. Sorry, I've just read all this through and I'm rambling (too much beer) so nuff said :thumbsup:
If, like mine, your locos are 'DCC ready' then the extra cost for 'chipping' is just that for the decoder - I use Bachmann 6-pin decoders, around £15.
A local model shop will 'hard-wire' a decoder into my latest acquisition, a Bachmann class 03 shunter. This will cost £15 plus the cost of the decoder. I suppose I could have tried myself but don't have the nerve to get that close to the chassis with a soldering iron!
As always with this hobby, there is no definite way ahead: it's entirely up to the individual as to what they want out of their layout: I want smooth running and as close as possible to 100% reliability, without having to go to 2mm finescale (too late for this layout!).
I looked at DC but the advantages of DCC outweighed it & now i'm glad i did, starting with a procab & two locos both of which i successfully fitted decoders to on returning home the precise control & lighting features on locos cannot be achieved in DC especially with my U.S. where ditch/mars lighting etc comes into play.
Along with the procab i went on to purchase the Powercab which has an extra panel if needed.
The only DC i would consider is a line /lines isolated from the DCC with a shuttle unit for eg: a siding serving a small industry.