N Gauge Forum

General Category => N Gauge Discussion => Topic started by: Dr Al on March 13, 2014, 11:21:20 AM

Title: Peco NR-6B Insulfish van, white - realistic, or generic?
Post by: Dr Al on March 13, 2014, 11:21:20 AM
Hi,

Does anyone know if the Peco NR-6B Insulfish van, white is actually accurately based on a real prototype in this livery, or is it a generic box van painted in this livery?

Thanks,
Alan
Title: Re: Peco NR-6B Insulfish van, white - realistic, or generic?
Post by: NeilMac on March 13, 2014, 12:14:55 PM
It looks very much like the LNER fish van shown on page 49 of British Railway Goods Wagons by Robert Henry, and at a scale 15 ft., is on the correct wheelbase.

However, it uses the same chassis as Peco's Ferry Tube Wagon, which is certainly not accurate, so I would take it with a pinch of salt...
Title: Re: Peco NR-6B Insulfish van, white - realistic, or generic?
Post by: Wingman mothergoose on March 13, 2014, 01:47:00 PM
Depends whether you want to compromise or not. The Peco insulfish is cheaper than the Dapol one, but the Dapol van is more likely to behave when propelled through setrack points(or any points for that matter). I used to have a couple of the Peco ferry tube wagons and some of their Ford vans too, and none of them liked being pushed through pointwork.....

Chris
Title: Re: Peco NR-6B Insulfish van, white - realistic, or generic?
Post by: CarriageShed on March 13, 2014, 01:49:38 PM
Although your Insulfish van isn't covered (yet), a lot more RTR wagons are covered in this thread:
http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=19401.msg198287#msg198287 (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=19401.msg198287#msg198287)

I was trying to work out a list of accurate RTR wagons for my own needs, but please feel free to add further examples to flesh out the details there (and maybe even fill in some of the gaps).

Peter
Title: Re: Peco NR-6B Insulfish van, white - realistic, or generic?
Post by: NeilMac on March 13, 2014, 02:01:32 PM
Looking again at photos of the Peco Fish Van, it could be that the chassis was originally made for this model, as the Ferry Tube Wagon and Ford Van are very much compromises, probably made to fit this chassis.

Apart from the standard of casting/finish, there doesn't seem to be much difference between the Peco and Dapol models.
Title: Re: Peco NR-6B Insulfish van, white - realistic, or generic?
Post by: Dr Al on March 13, 2014, 02:06:24 PM
Quote from: NeilMac on March 13, 2014, 02:01:32 PM
Apart from the standard of casting/finish, there doesn't seem to be much difference between the Peco and Dapol models.

The Peco one appears stretched as compared the Dapol one, which is why I wondered if it's actually realistic - I think it actually probably isn't.

Cheers,
Alan
Title: Re: Peco NR-6B Insulfish van, white - realistic, or generic?
Post by: Wingman mothergoose on March 13, 2014, 02:22:33 PM
I'm after a fair few of these to recreate a typical fish train on the GC, and I was going to compromise with the Peco insulfish vans as they're cheaper. But looking at the Dapol vans, they're not that much more expensive, and the finish and detail is a lot better than the Peco.
I've also seen in some film footage that Birdseye AF containers on Conflat wagons ran in the fish trains too, good job then as I've got a couple of these already! ;-)

Chris
Title: Re: Peco NR-6B Insulfish van, white - realistic, or generic?
Post by: NeilMac on March 13, 2014, 02:24:45 PM
I think you're right, Alan; there appears to be too much overhang at each end of the Peco bodywork - the Dapol model looks correct when viewed against the aforementioned photo of the real thing.

Which makes me wonder: what model was the Peco chassis originally intended for?

Cheers,
Neil
Title: Re: Peco NR-6B Insulfish van, white - realistic, or generic?
Post by: Dr Al on March 13, 2014, 02:29:10 PM
Quote from: NeilMac on March 13, 2014, 02:24:45 PM
Which makes me wonder: what model was the Peco chassis originally intended for?

Same chassis is under several different open wagons as well I think.

I don't think the Peco van looks bad I have to say, though it does look odd next to the Dapol ones. Dapol ones are much harder to get hold of though...

Cheers,
Alan
Title: Re: Peco NR-6B Insulfish van, white - realistic, or generic?
Post by: johnlambert on March 13, 2014, 02:42:40 PM
I have a Peco insulated van and several Peco Box vans.  The insulated van isn't just a white box van, they have differnet strappings and doors (IIRC, I don't have them in front of me at the moment) although I can believe that the chassis is the same for both.   

I also have Dapol and Farish fish vans.  The dapol offering is quite impressive with its long wheelbase and NEM pockets mounted on close coupling mechanisms.  I've not had any problems with any of these wagons going through settrack points even when using short couplings on the Dapol vans.

My philosophy is 'if it looks right, it is right' so I'm not that bothered if my goods wagons aren't an exact match for any particular prototype.  Given a decent bit of painting and weathering the Peco wagons are a great way to fill out your trains without breaking the bank.  Since most of the fish trains I've seen in photos used a variety of vehicles I don't think it would look wrong to have a train made up with three types of fish van.
Title: Re: Peco NR-6B Insulfish van, white - realistic, or generic?
Post by: Zunnan on March 13, 2014, 03:40:45 PM
The bracing and panel lines on the upper ends of the Peco model suggests they're based on lot 30125 built at Darlington in 1954, and (for the body at least) in terms of the basic detail they have the right bits in the right places but not necessarily to the right dimensions. The chassis it sits on is a work of fiction for these vans, it is certainly not the LNER derived clasp braked example that the real thing rode on, it is also nowhere near the later roller bearing fitted 'Blue Spot' vans of lot 30384 (Darlington 1959), neither in chassis or body. Without one of the Peco vans to hand I can't confirm that they're the right length, but even when I hide the incorrect chassis the van body looks somewhat stretched. If it isn't over long it looks to be under height, and is possibly a combination of the two.

If the Peco and Dapol models were of each batch then the obviously different bracing of the two builds would maybe excuse the difference in dimensions of the models, but as they're apparently of the same prototype, I'd avoid running them together. The Dapol van fairly accurately depicts the 1954 build as it rides on the LNER chassis and has the earlier body with much less visible bracing on show. Did they ever do the later roller bearing build?
Title: Re: Peco NR-6B Insulfish van, white - realistic, or generic?
Post by: Dr Al on March 13, 2014, 04:56:06 PM
Quote from: Zunnan on March 13, 2014, 03:40:45 PM
Did they ever do the later roller bearing build?

I'm sure I read somewhere (Paul Bartlett's wagon site?) that the wagons with the blue spots were roller bearing fitted, those without the blue spot weren't. Don't know if that's true however.

Cheers,
Alan
Title: Re: Peco NR-6B Insulfish van, white - realistic, or generic?
Post by: bridgiesimon on March 13, 2014, 05:08:29 PM
The peco van is a mismatch hotchpotch to fit the chassis they use under numerous vehicles and is not to scale dimensions where as the Dapol one is. The best way to see this is if you look at the distance from tghe wheelsets to the end of hte van, the dapol one is much better.

Best wishes
Simon
Title: Re: Peco NR-6B Insulfish van, white - realistic, or generic?
Post by: E Pinniger on March 13, 2014, 05:30:55 PM
The Peco Insulfish van is on my list of RTR wagons, I described it as based on Diagram 1/801 but with an overlong body - reading this thread, it sounds like that's not the only accuracy problem it has! I'd definitely go for the Dapol one if buying new but the Peco one (which can be found cheap second-hand with a bit of luck) still looks OK with a decent weathering job.
Peco also produced this van in its later role as a SPV parcels van (not sure if the real vans had any modifications, but the model is certainly identical to the Insulfish version)

Quote from: johnlambert on March 13, 2014, 02:42:40 PM
I have a Peco insulated van and several Peco Box vans.  The insulated van isn't just a white box van, they have differnet strappings and doors (IIRC, I don't have them in front of me at the moment) although I can believe that the chassis is the same for both.   
If the chassis is the same as the standard box van, your model is probably the one based on a SR banana van - the Insulfish is on a long wheelbase (15') chassis.
Title: Re: Peco NR-6B Insulfish van, white - realistic, or generic?
Post by: Zunnan on March 13, 2014, 06:53:41 PM
Quote from: Dr Al on March 13, 2014, 04:56:06 PM
Quote from: Zunnan on March 13, 2014, 03:40:45 PM
Did they ever do the later roller bearing build?

I'm sure I read somewhere (Paul Bartlett's wagon site?) that the wagons with the blue spots were roller bearing fitted, those without the blue spot weren't. Don't know if that's true however.

Cheers,
Alan

Only those fitted with roller bearings carried the Blue Spot, both 800 and 801 were fitted with them but not all of the 800s were so fitted, I believe the earliest built 800s had grease bearings while later batches had roller bearings...no idea where the change occurs though. Plus you have to be careful to distinguish between the 800/801 and the LNER designed BR built diagram 214 vans of 1949 which are near identical to the 800s except for the traditional grease axle boxes and steam heat piping. The differences go deeper than merely roller bearings, the bracing is considerably different between the 214/800 and the later 801, to the point that to model them you'd need to flat the sides back and start again if you want an 801.

The diagonals start at the door corners on Blue Spots (diagram 801), not below at solebar level as per the older build (diagram 800). Blue Spots have a prominent vertical brace midway along each ply panel on either side of the doors which extends down to the bottom of the solebar, the originals have a panel join midway along the ply side panels with a small 'L' bracket below; both vans sport a line of rivets a third of the way outwards from either side of the door. Moving to the vehicle ends the 801 has prominent diagonal bracing on either side of the vertical braces and a single piece ply panel, the older 800 has only the two vertical braces, a panel seam in the aluminium skin running vertically in the middle of each end and horizontal metalwork up near the eaves with quite obvious rivets. There are other subtle differences such as the buffers too, 800 had chunky self contained buffers while the 801s had slender, longer Oleos.

Basically, if the Dapol model carries an 800 number (E87000-E87499) and blue spot livery then it is probably right unless it has a very early number. As modelled with roller bearings it can't carry an 801 number (E87500-E88056 (I think)) because they're so obviously different, nor a 214 number (E75000-E75599). But, adding the grease axle boxes and LNER pipework to the model is a relatively easy job, just remember to remove the blue spot and number it properly if you do this though.



edit ~ The Peco model bears the running number E87000, so if that is to be believed it should be a diagram 800 van, and if my research hasn't completely escaped me should be one of the few 800s which had grease bearings (as does an early 87000 numbered Hornby model)
Title: Re: Peco NR-6B Insulfish van, white - realistic, or generic?
Post by: Bealman on March 14, 2014, 10:08:25 PM
Yeah... as noted by several members above, the Peco fish van is mounted on a generic chassis which is used on several of the firm's models - the Ford pallet van and bolster wagon being two examples.

Before the lengthy hiatus on my B&CE layout, I actually began amassing quite a number of the Peco fish vans with the intention of simulating the night time fish trains of the 50s and 60s, which were sometimes hauled by A4 Pacifics! Strung together as a train the Peco wagons don't look too bad.... almost impressive.

But, as it says in the review of the Peco wagon on page 51 of Britain's Model Trains 2014,

"Dapol fish van is better"
Title: Re: Peco NR-6B Insulfish van, white - realistic, or generic?
Post by: Wingman mothergoose on April 07, 2014, 09:40:40 AM
Dapol fish vans it is then! ;-)

Chris
Title: Re: Peco NR-6B Insulfish van, white - realistic, or generic?
Post by: Dr Al on April 07, 2014, 09:49:54 AM
Quote from: Wingman mothergoose on April 07, 2014, 09:40:40 AM
Dapol fish vans it is then! ;-)

Chris

You'll need to hunt for them - I exhausted Model Rail Direct and some of Hattons supplies in getting my train together! Rails of Sheffield had none either, or they'd have got some custom too! Seem to be out of stock at a lot of suppliers I looked in.

Cheers,
Alan
Title: Re: Peco NR-6B Insulfish van, white - realistic, or generic?
Post by: davieb on April 07, 2014, 09:55:39 AM
You could try contacting Trident Trains

http://www.tridenttrains.co.uk/ (http://www.tridenttrains.co.uk/)

He had a few in stock when I was last there a couple of weeks ago  :hmmm:

dave  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Peco NR-6B Insulfish van, white - realistic, or generic?
Post by: Wingman mothergoose on April 07, 2014, 10:06:32 AM
I'm in no rush! I've got a shed load of other stuff to do before I'm allowed to think about buying more wagons, some major trackwork and wiring alterations, sorting out my two newest locos, finishing my loco shed etc etc etc!
Title: Re: Peco NR-6B Insulfish van, white - realistic, or generic?
Post by: tutenkhamunsleeping on April 09, 2014, 08:07:53 AM
The Dapol vans frequently come back into stock at Hattons, so just keep your eyes open.

Here's one from yesterday:
http://www.ehattons.com/59067/Dapol_2F_019_002_Blue_spot_fish_van_87706/StockDetail.aspx (http://www.ehattons.com/59067/Dapol_2F_019_002_Blue_spot_fish_van_87706/StockDetail.aspx)
Title: Re: Peco NR-6B Insulfish van, white - realistic, or generic?
Post by: Agrippa on April 09, 2014, 11:29:51 AM
Osborns show them on their website, but no indication if in stock . Dapol also show them, however
they are at full price  (£9.40) and again no indication of stock level.
Title: Re: Peco NR-6B Insulfish van, white - realistic, or generic?
Post by: 1936ace on May 16, 2014, 01:54:40 PM
So how many fish vans usually ran together to make up a train load
Bart