Let's play a little game - identify the RTR wagon (mainly because although I've matched up a few Farish and Peco wagons to their historical counterparts, I'm struggling with others). I'd like to renumber incorrect wagons and also multiple wagons that bear the same number. I'd also like to make sure that what I'm using is correct for my chosen period, so I've been carrying out some research and filling in at least a few gaps.
For instance:
Graham Farish LMS 12T 5 Plank Open Wagon, No 345699, diagram unknown, built between 1928-1959. One alternative number is 304719:
(http://i1284.photobucket.com/albums/a565/NGauge33/Rolling%20Stock/DSCN8566_zpseb65a1e5.jpg) (http://s1284.photobucket.com/user/NGauge33/media/Rolling%20Stock/DSCN8566_zpseb65a1e5.jpg.html)
Peco SR 10T 5 Plank Wagon No 5095 Diagram 1380, built unknown (on the right of the photo). One alternative number is 9509 (really?):
(http://i1284.photobucket.com/albums/a565/NGauge33/Rolling%20Stock/DSCN7625_zpse6a83954.jpg) (http://s1284.photobucket.com/user/NGauge33/media/Rolling%20Stock/DSCN7625_zpse6a83954.jpg.html)
But this one has me stumped. Every single example of an LMS wagon I've seen online has a different panel arrangement and different doors.
Graham Farish 12T Twin-Vent Van No 7126, diagram unknown, built unknown, alternative numbers unknown:
(http://i1284.photobucket.com/albums/a565/NGauge33/Rolling%20Stock/DSCN8039_zps84249f99.jpg) (http://s1284.photobucket.com/user/NGauge33/media/Rolling%20Stock/DSCN8039_zps84249f99.jpg.html)
Any ideas, chaps and chapesses?
Quote from: Pete33 on February 10, 2014, 09:48:04 PM
But this one has me stumped. Every single example of an LMS wagon I've seen online has a different panel arrangement and different doors.
Graham Farish 12T Twin-Vent Van No 7126, diagram unknown, built unknown, alternative numbers unknown:
(http://i1284.photobucket.com/albums/a565/NGauge33/Rolling%20Stock/DSCN8039_zps84249f99.jpg) (http://s1284.photobucket.com/user/NGauge33/media/Rolling%20Stock/DSCN8039_zps84249f99.jpg.html)
Any ideas, chaps and chapesses?
I've got one of those, which came with BR, Western region numbering:-
(http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w227/neilmc_photos/18a79cad80ad29cae0d60ef171f1748f_zpsace8c7c1.jpg)
As well as the diagonals, another unusual feature is the differing widths of the planking. When I researched this model at the time I bought it, I couldn't make up my mind whether it was based on GWR or SR design, so I left the Western numbering, but changed the roof (not very successfully) to try to replicate the 'domed' appearance of the examples I had seen.
In any case, I don't think it was an LMS design, but I could be wrong...
Cheers,
Neil
Hi Neil
That's a good point about the uneven planking. I know that the SR were very hot on that (I can't say about the others), so maybe we should be checking SR diagrams for its origin. It might also explain why I can't find any LMS information on it.
I even have an example of the same model in SR livery, which also matches your BR version:
(http://i1284.photobucket.com/albums/a565/NGauge33/Rolling%20Stock/DSCN8565_zps31730590.jpg) (http://s1284.photobucket.com/user/NGauge33/media/Rolling%20Stock/DSCN8565_zps31730590.jpg.html)
Pete
It's also interesting to compare this model with more recent offerings.
Here it is flanked by a BachFar meat van and a Peco Banana van:-
(http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w227/neilmc_photos/221fb90a2541418b172874f90717f024_zpsc6c5ebe4.jpg)
Note the height difference, which I remember being quite correct when I did my original research.
Neil
!ts a Southern design...actually earlier, I can find this design dating back to at least 1919 (diagram 1426) so LBSC or LSWR or one of the other pre grouping railways which became the Southern. The roof is hopelessly wrong mind you, but the 2+2 planking and brace isn't too bad a representation.
Thing is though, they were also built for the other railways during WWII and certainly carried GWR and LMS liveries, probably NE branded too for the LNER and later carried their subsequent regional prefixes rather than being returned to the Southern region. I believe the LMS had them designated as diagram 2078, and most were built in 1944. I'm not sure where the numbering begins for them, 523340 is the lowest that I know of and they stretched into the 523400+ range.
Quote from: Zunnan on February 11, 2014, 06:36:41 PM
!ts a Southern design...actually earlier, I can find this design dating back to at least 1919 (diagram 1426) so LBSC or LSWR or one of the other pre grouping railways which became the Southern. The roof is hopelessly wrong mind you, but the 2+2 planking and brace isn't too bad a representation.
Thing is though, they were also built for the other railways during WWII and certainly carried GWR and LMS liveries, probably NE branded too for the LNER and later carried their subsequent regional prefixes rather than being returned to the Southern region. I believe the LMS had them designated as diagram 2078, and most were built in 1944. I'm not sure where the numbering begins for them, 523340 is the lowest that I know of and they stretched into the 523400+ range.
You're right, it
is a Southern design. Apart from the roof, this is essentially the van:
http://www.bluebellrailway.co.uk/bluebell/pic2/wagons/44611.html (http://www.bluebellrailway.co.uk/bluebell/pic2/wagons/44611.html)
This one was built in 1931, to Diagram 1429, so perhaps the Farish flat roof version is a later diagram. I knew it wasn't an ex-LSWR design (the Illustrated History of Southern Wagons: LSWR & S&DJR is the only volume I do have), although some of the chassis parts were LSWR, added by the SR. It was based on an earlier SECR diagram, and you can see slight differences between the SR version and the SECR version:
http://www.bluebellrailway.co.uk/bluebell/pics/15750.html (http://www.bluebellrailway.co.uk/bluebell/pics/15750.html)
If the design was 'inherited' by the LMS and others after the war then it's too late for me (I'm modelling 1930). I'm going to have to replace my LMS twin-vent vans with something else - probably kit-based to an earlier, more readily identifiable LMS diagram.
Diagram 2078 for the LMS version seems correct. It's mentioned on another forum too.
Those wagons belong to a past era when manufacturers could churn out a generic wagon in many liveries and we were grateful because there wasn't anything better...
The closed van in the OP as stated does most closely match the SR design built for all the big 4 in the early part of WW2 but the roof is the wrong shape and the chassis is the generic one-size-fits-all type. the open is an approximation of a 1910s/20s RCH type more appropriate for Private Owner liveries than the Big 4 colours it was also produced in.
The Peco van (pictured above in BR Banana van guise) is a passable GWR mink, but the cattle wagon is nowhere near any known type. Probably the closest is the Midland design but it is two feet short for that!
Quote from: Pete33 on February 10, 2014, 09:48:04 PM
For instance:
Graham Farish LMS 12T 5 Plank Open Wagon, No 345699, diagram unknown, built between 1928-1959. One alternative number is 304719:
(http://i1284.photobucket.com/albums/a565/NGauge33/Rolling%20Stock/DSCN8566_zpseb65a1e5.jpg) (http://s1284.photobucket.com/user/NGauge33/media/Rolling%20Stock/DSCN8566_zpseb65a1e5.jpg.html)
That is actually a Peco 5 plank - the Poole Farish 5 plank had angled end corners and was based on an SR design. http://www.pwdnet.co.uk/ebay2/images/318x225_EB2_GrahamFarish2002_Wagon_SKU4012-72.jpg (http://www.pwdnet.co.uk/ebay2/images/318x225_EB2_GrahamFarish2002_Wagon_SKU4012-72.jpg) The door is very wide on the Farish model, but from it's pattern it may actually be based on an SR Shock open. If you take 2mm out of the door width it looks better. The SR Shock opens were very slightly taller than the BR Shock Opens, so this can make an interesting slightly different wagon - too late for 1930 period though.
The Peco 5 plank is fairly typical of the earlier patterns of 17' 6" 5 planks where the angled strapping on the sides doesn't go below the floor level. The nearest LMS diagram would be D1667, but the wheelbase should be 9 foot (but longer over headstocks than the Peco 9 ft wb chassis). Also the door catch/pins should be mounted one plank higher. There was a similar one on a wood chassis D1666. These were built from 1923-30, so the right period and currently the nearest you're likely to get.
Quote from: PLD on February 11, 2014, 09:54:31 PM
Those wagons belong to a past era when manufacturers could churn out a generic wagon in many liveries and we were grateful because there wasn't anything better...
The closed van in the OP as stated does most closely match the SR design built for all the big 4 in the early part of WW2 but the roof is the wrong shape and the chassis is the generic one-size-fits-all type. the open is an approximation of a 1910s/20s RCH type more appropriate for Private Owner liveries than the Big 4 colours it was also produced in.
The Peco van (pictured above in BR Banana van guise) is a passable GWR mink, but the cattle wagon is nowhere near any known type. Probably the closest is the Midland design but it is two feet short for that!
I can see me replacing all the Farish twin-vent vans with kits, assuming they're available. The inaccuracy of the roof profile is especially noticeable.
The cattle wagon I'm not so sure of. It resembles (without matching) several LSWR diagrams, so I might just live with it. I haven't researched SR cattle wagon diagrams yet, so I'm not sure which of them might match it the best.
Quote from: BernardTPM on February 11, 2014, 10:15:48 PM
That is actually a Peco 5 plank - the Poole Farish 5 plank had angled end corners and was based on an SR design. http://www.pwdnet.co.uk/ebay2/images/318x225_EB2_GrahamFarish2002_Wagon_SKU4012-72.jpg (http://www.pwdnet.co.uk/ebay2/images/318x225_EB2_GrahamFarish2002_Wagon_SKU4012-72.jpg) The door is very wide on the Farish model, but from it's pattern it may actually be based on an SR Shock open. If you take 2mm out of the door width it looks better. The SR Shock opens were very slightly taller than the BR Shock Opens, so this can make an interesting slightly different wagon - too late for 1930 period though.
The Peco 5 plank is fairly typical of the earlier patterns of 17' 6" 5 planks where the angled strapping on the sides doesn't go below the floor level. The nearest LMS diagram would be D1667, but the wheelbase should be 9 foot (but longer over headstocks than the Peco 9 ft wb chassis). Also the door catch/pins should be mounted one plank higher. There was a similar one on a wood chassis D1666. These were built from 1923-30, so the right period and currently the nearest you're likely to get.
Thanks for the information, Bernard. Of course you're right. It's a Peco wagon. I misread my own datasheet. :smackedface:
Cambrian Models seems to match it up pretty closely to its own steel-framed 5-plank here:
http://www.cambrianmodels.co.uk/lmswagons.html (http://www.cambrianmodels.co.uk/lmswagons.html)
using Diagram 1667 as you said, so I think I'd be happy to take that and use these wagons without changing them. I'm nowhere near the stage at which I can chop-and-shop wagons. Considering the fact that replacing the covered vans is going to be higher on the list of priorities, I'll be happy to run these for a few years before thinking about kit replacements.
The Peco banana van appears to match SR Insulated Van Diagram 1477:
http://www.westernthunder.co.uk/index.php?threads/parkside-sr-dia-1477-insulated-van.1832/ (http://www.westernthunder.co.uk/index.php?threads/parkside-sr-dia-1477-insulated-van.1832/)
The SR milk tanker here is Diagram 3157, but I've seen drawings of the Diagram 3155 milk tanker of 1932 that seem to match up to the Dapol 6-wheel milk van:
http://www.bluebellrailway.co.uk/bluebell/pics/4430.html (http://www.bluebellrailway.co.uk/bluebell/pics/4430.html)
Finally for tonight, the Dapol gunpowder van matches ex-LSWR Diagram 1701 of 1912, when a small batch were built. The three roof struts helps to give it away. The lettering is all wrong for its claimed SR period, though.
The Peco Banana/insulated van almost matches vans used by the LNER, LMS & SR. Here's the LMS Banana van http://www.bluebellrailway.co.uk/bluebell/pics/570027.HTML (http://www.bluebellrailway.co.uk/bluebell/pics/570027.HTML) - earlier examples to D1660 didn't have the diagonal strapping when built, though there is an extra grille/vent on the end and heavy bumpers for the doors. The Refrigerated (later Insulated) vans to D1672 had the same body (without the end vents) but with roof hatches for ice and a ladder at one end. Both the SR and LMS vans featured the small angled supports at each end however in both cases the planking was vertical, like the sides (the SR had a Banana version too D1478). The LNER had very similar Refrigerated and Banana vans and with the horizontally planked ends, however they had two grille/vents each end and wooden or later angle iron supports that went right to the roof. The Peco van is a kind of amalgam of all these vans but not entirely any one of them.
Bit of an oddball one for you: http://i.ebayimg.com/t/N-GAUGE-GRAHAM-FARISH-N-E-FISH-VAN-/00/s/MTAzMVgxNjAw/z/Hc0AAOxy5jxSa-t0/$T2eC16V,!w0FIZ0germHBS,-t0EMMQ~~60_35.JPG (http://i.ebayimg.com/t/N-GAUGE-GRAHAM-FARISH-N-E-FISH-VAN-/00/s/MTAzMVgxNjAw/z/Hc0AAOxy5jxSa-t0/$T2eC16V,!w0FIZ0germHBS,-t0EMMQ~~60_35.JPG) The Farish fish van is a GNR design. there's an illustration of one in the old Tatlow LNER Wagons book with the alternative number 414124.
What a brilliant thread!!
Thanks for kicking it off, Pete! :thumbsup:
George
Quote from: BernardTPM on February 12, 2014, 10:56:02 PM
Bit of an oddball one for you: http://i.ebayimg.com/t/N-GAUGE-GRAHAM-FARISH-N-E-FISH-VAN-/00/s/MTAzMVgxNjAw/z/Hc0AAOxy5jxSa-t0/$T2eC16V,!w0FIZ0germHBS,-t0EMMQ~~60_35.JPG (http://i.ebayimg.com/t/N-GAUGE-GRAHAM-FARISH-N-E-FISH-VAN-/00/s/MTAzMVgxNjAw/z/Hc0AAOxy5jxSa-t0/$T2eC16V,!w0FIZ0germHBS,-t0EMMQ~~60_35.JPG) The Farish fish van is a GNR design. there's an illustration of one in the old Tatlow LNER Wagons book with the alternative number 414124.
That's one I haven't come across before, possibly because the GNR is far outside the region that I'm modelling. Is it another vague design that could match rolling stock for Grouping companies?
Quote from: Bealman on February 13, 2014, 06:23:36 AM
What a brilliant thread!!
Thanks for kicking it off, Pete! :thumbsup:
George
Happy to help, George :D
Although I don't need to make sure my rolling stock matches the original in every tiny detail, I do need to know that it's generally accurate. I think pinning down RTR stock to specific diagrams is also the best way of helping anyone else to get what they want rather than collecting rolling stock only to find out later that it's not right for their period.
Don't let region stop you from running wagons from other railways! ;)
The LMS may have had the largest freight fleet in the land, so more of their own wagons will have featured in their trains, but even so there would still be the odd interloper. Further north you'd want more LNER, from around Blackpool heading south you start mixing in more GWR and when you cross the Mersey I'd expect there to be as much as a third of a larger LMS train to consist of LNER and GWR vehicles, not to mention a good proportion of private owner wagons appropriate to the area conveying coal. Actually, pre WWII, much of the train should really be pre-grouping designs from the likes of the LNWR, MR, Furness, South Staffs, GWR, NE, GCR and so many more. A train of purely LMS stock would be the exception rather than the norm, even if it does look nice. Even the liveries carried will vary, freight stock was pretty much at the bottom of the priority list when it came to repainting, the closer to a changeover the greater the variety will become, and its the variety that will set the period. A 1930 LMS layout will still have a good amount of pre 1923 liveries evident, stretch that to 1939 and you'll have a mix of early and late Big Four liveries and new and early wagon designs, with a few of the oldest still bearing their old livery. Likewise, a 1948 BR layout will have next to no BR liveried stock, no BR standard locomotives, coaches or wagons, while even a 1955 BR layout will still have traces of the Big Four liveries and a majority of the stock will still be of older pre-BR design.
Take a look at a block train of vans from the period, if its a good clear photo I'd wager that you will be able to see (not necessarily accurately identify) at least a dozen different types of van in an LMS, LNER, GWR or SR freight from the '30s. The little stopping local will have some variety too, I've seen photos where not one vehicle after the locomotive was from home turf! (My favourite shows a MR 2F with NE pipe wagons and a SR Pillbox brake van on a GWR branch) Even something like cattle and Fish trains will have a mix of stock. This mix stretches well into the BR period too, even into the 70s you could see fitted van trains that had grouping stock mingling with the by then more common BR designs. Then take a 'windcutter' of what appears to all be 16t minerals, even this will have different heritage vehicles with LMS and LNER designs plus some exotics like the repatriated ex-SNCF/SNCB wagons with larger side doors, look closer and there are even planked ex-private owner vehicles to be seen into the '60s. The mix of vehicles in the train will actually say more about the region you model than if you were to use say all BR design stock on a '60s layout.
Embrace the 'chaos' that is mismatching liveries! :D
I haven't really looked at GWR and LNER in my search for LMS, SR and S&DJR, but you're quite right. It seems a bit unfair that steam modellers can't have their version of the modern single-wagon type good trains that goes on for ages, but shorter and far messier goods trains were much more the norm in the Grouping days.
The trick is in embracing the chaos when you're a very ordered person. The chaos has to be achieved in a properly ordered fashion!
Quote from: Pete33 on February 13, 2014, 01:20:29 PM
That's (GNR Fish van) one I haven't come across before, possibly because the GNR is far outside the region that I'm modelling. Is it another vague design that could match rolling stock for Grouping companies?
No, that's a very distinctly GNR and Fish vans would have been used in dedicated East coast trains, so not one you're likely to need.
There's one Farish van that does have a more general use if you're prepared to do a little work:http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/gansg/10-avmod/gfbvan.jpg (http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/gansg/10-avmod/gfbvan.jpg) Though discontinued some time ago the Farish NER bogie van body can be cut in half to produce two NER covered vans. You will have to scratchbuild two new matching ends of course, but you end up with something that would suit your 1930 period well. With their drop lower door and roof access they are quite a bit different to the run-of-the-mill van too. Here's a preserved one: https://chasewaterstuff.wordpress.com/2009/09/03/north-eastern-railway-box-van/ (https://chasewaterstuff.wordpress.com/2009/09/03/north-eastern-railway-box-van/) The diagonal strapping is a later addition and wouldn't have been on the van when new.
Interesting - I haven't posted here or checked the forums for a while, but I was going to make a similar post on identifying RTR wagons (I'm working on repainting some tatty old second-hand wagons and was looking through my reference books to ID them, which got me curious as to what exactly all these old RTR models were based on). My post was more along the lines of compiling a list of types which could then be added to the N gauge wiki.
Shall I make a new thread or would it be better to post it in this one?
A couple of types I've identified myself which I didn't spot in this thread: the Farish 7-plank open mineral appears to be a LMS ex-North Staffordshire Railway 15t loco coal wagon (the model is a fairly close matc to the drawings in F.J.Roche's book). And Lima's 7-plank open, despite the awful chassis, is actually a quite accurate + nicely detailed representation of a LMS 12t mineral wagon (much closer to this type than the Peco one)
Quote from: BernardTPM on February 13, 2014, 04:37:26 PM
There's one Farish van that does have a more general use if you're prepared to do a little work:http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/gansg/10-avmod/gfbvan.jpg (http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/gansg/10-avmod/gfbvan.jpg) Though discontinued some time ago the Farish NER bogie van body can be cut in half to produce two NER covered vans. You will have to scratchbuild two new matching ends of course, but you end up with something that would suit your 1930 period well. With their drop lower door and roof access they are quite a bit different to the run-of-the-mill van too. Here's a preserved one: https://chasewaterstuff.wordpress.com/2009/09/03/north-eastern-railway-box-van/ (https://chasewaterstuff.wordpress.com/2009/09/03/north-eastern-railway-box-van/) The diagonal strapping is a later addition and wouldn't have been on the van when new.
I haven't quite got the experience or materials to scratchbuild new van ends yet, but I'm certainly building up to it. I'll keep an eye out for the B Van (I guess that's what it was?) on the second-hand market and save it until I'm capable of doing a good job on it. Many thanks for the tip.
Quote from: E Pinniger on February 13, 2014, 07:15:18 PM
Interesting - I haven't posted here or checked the forums for a while, but I was going to make a similar post on identifying RTR wagons (I'm working on repainting some tatty old second-hand wagons and was looking through my reference books to ID them, which got me curious as to what exactly all these old RTR models were based on). My post was more along the lines of compiling a list of types which could then be added to the N gauge wiki.
Shall I make a new thread or would it be better to post it in this one?
A couple of types I've identified myself which I didn't spot in this thread: the Farish 7-plank open mineral appears to be a LMS ex-North Staffordshire Railway 15t loco coal wagon (the model is a fairly close matc to the drawings in F.J.Roche's book). And Lima's 7-plank open, despite the awful chassis, is actually a quite accurate + nicely detailed representation of a LMS 12t mineral wagon (much closer to this type than the Peco one)
I'm slowly going through my wagons to weather them and renumber where I have duplicates, so before I really start I also wanted to know exactly what I had and how accurate it was. Although I'm only researching Grouping-era wagons myself, the thread's title is all-inclusive, so feel free to post here and keep all the information in one thread. I was also thinking of adding the info to the wiki once a decent supply of it had built up.
Do you have diagram numbers for the LMS 7-plank open and the Lima wagon, and construction dates... and perhaps even running numbers? Each company had several variations of each wagon type, so I feel it might help to try and narrow them down - especially when it comes to attempting renumbering.
I should also mention (if I haven't already) that the only wagons book I have is the Southern Wagons Vol 1: LSWR & S&DJR, so if anyone needs look-ups I'm happy to help.
Quote from: Pete33 on February 13, 2014, 10:45:44 PM
Do you have diagram numbers for the LMS 7-plank open and the Lima wagon, and construction dates... and perhaps even running numbers? Each company had several variations of each wagon type, so I feel it might help to try and narrow them down - especially when it comes to attempting renumbering.
Having had another look through my reference books I think I was wrong about the Lima wagon, it is actually a RCH 7-plank mineral wagon, not the LMS design (they're very similar-looking) which would make it more suited to P.O. wagons.
My layout is set in the early 1960s so the exact ID of the wagon types isn't so critical (they will all be grey or bauxite, heavily weathered and in some cases with replacement planks and/or unpainted woodwork) though I wanted to get the regions right for the running number decals. I probably won't attempt to get the correct running numbers for the wagon type, though.
I'll post my list of RTR wagon IDs once I've made a bit more progress with it, in the meantime I'd be happy to contribute to this thread!
One type I'm particularly curious about is the Peco "Butterley" steel open wagon. I've heard that this is based on a one-off prototype built in the 1940s, rather than a production design - am I correct? I know there were numerous very similar types produced before the BR standard 16t designs were introduced.
The list so far. This is what we've worked out, although some items are still open to a degree of debate. Red text is for questions still remaining:
Dapol Cat No NB-009, SR 7T Gunpowder Van No 61204, Diagram 1701, Built LSWR 1912. Accurate, but needs SR lettering added to either side of the doors. Remove the 's' and 7T and number, add 'Load 7 Tons' to bottom right corner and add running number in larger digits above that. Rest of lettering is okay.
Alternative running numbers: 61201-61212
Dapol Cat No NB-027, United Dairies 6-Wheel Milk Tank, Diagram 3155 Type 3, Built 1932. Accurate but unnumbered.
Alternative running numbers: 4419-4424
Graham Farish Cat No ?, LMS 7 Plank Open Wagon No ?, Diagram ?, Built ?. Appears to be an ex-NSR 15T mineral wagon.
Alternative running numbers: ?
Graham Farish Cat No 2401, LMS 12T Twin-Vent Van No 7126, Diagram 2078, Built c.1940-1947. Has incorrect shallow-sloping roof and is an SR design that spread to the other companies during WWII. Should be in post-1937 LMS bauxite with small company lettering.
Alternative running numbers: ?
Graham Farish Cat No 2301, LMS 12T Single Vent Refrigerator Van No 7704, Diagram ?, Built ?. Generally accurate to an LNER design but should be fitted with vacuum pipes. The LMS used a flatter roof profile than the LNER and, as built, their sliding doors didn't have the central horizontal. Another LNER-only feature are the two pressings above the end vent. There's now a new super-detailed version of the LNER fitted underframe, though the old body could still be used to represent the unfitted van. Alternatively, use the earlier body only in NGS kit NGK018.
Alternative running numbers: 91548, 117870
Graham Farish Cat No 2403, SR 10T Twin-Vent Van No 52783, Diagram 1426/29, Built 1919/1931. Has incorrect shallow-sloping roof but is otherwise fairly accurate.
Alternative running numbers: ?
Peco Cat No NR-40M, LMS 12T 5 Plank Open Wagon, No 345699, Diagram 1667, Built 1928-1959. Not an exact match - too long in the body - but passable.
Alternative running numbers: 304719
Peco Cat No NR-40S, SR 10T 5 Plank Wagon No 5095, Diagram 1380, Built ?.
Alternative running numbers: 9509 (?)
Peco Cat No ?, 'Butterley' 14T Steel Open Mineral Wagon, Built 1935. Based on a one-off prototype built by Butterley.
Peco Cat No NR-42S, SR 10T Banana Van No 50680, Diagram 1477, Built 1931. If the Parkside 7mm kit is anything to go by, this is a fairly close match to the SR insulated van, so re-lettering and renumbering is called for. Should also be fitted with vacuum pipes, at least for its pre-war days.
Alternative running numbers: Insulated Vans 50568, 50559; Banana Vans 50480; Meat Vans 50289
Peco Cat No NR-50A, BR 8T Banana Van with Fyffes Logo, No ?, Diagram ?, Built ?. A passable GWR Mink. Also useful as a base for customisation into vans for the other Big 4, but not entirely accurate for any of them.
Alternative running numbers: ?
Peco Cat No NR-P167, United Dairies 4-Wheel Milk Tank, Diagram 3152 Type 1, Built 1931. Accurate but unnumbered.
Alternative running numbers: 4404-4409
Quote from: E Pinniger on February 14, 2014, 07:14:40 PM
One type I'm particularly curious about is the Peco "Butterley" steel open wagon. I've heard that this is based on a one-off prototype built in the 1940s, rather than a production design - am I correct? I know there were numerous very similar types produced before the BR standard 16t designs were introduced.
I've added Butterley to the list because it's not one I'm familiar with either. (You wouldn't believe the amount of formatting that went into that list!)
The single vent van is actually the LNER version rather than LMS, though the two had very similar designs. The LMS used a flatter roof profile than the LNER and, as built, their sliding doors didn't have the central horizontal. Another LNER only feature are the two pressings above the end vent. There's now a new super-detailed version on the LNER fitted underframe, though the old body could still be used to represent the unfitted van.
For LMS vans you're better off using the NGS kit NGK018, however only the earlier body is really correct for your period - perhaps you could find someone (BR 1960s modeller?) who wants more of the later type.
The Midland van (NGK003) would still be common well into the 1930s.
... and the list by Pete in reply no.23 above is why the vans on my layout are almost exclusively kits - the RTR ones are so inaccurate...
Quote from: Pete33 on February 14, 2014, 09:26:03 PM
The list so far. This is what we've worked out
I'd summarise that anything designed in the last 10 years (Dapol, Farish items newly introduced since the Bachman takeover) are reasonably acurate models of specific types. Anything before then (Peco, Poole-Farish Lima) are generic / Imressionistic and to be brutally honest it is futile trying to match them to specific types...
Quote from: PLD on February 14, 2014, 11:57:05 PMI'd summarise that anything designed in the last 10 years (Dapol, Farish items newly introduced since the Bachman takeover) are reasonably acurate models of specific types. Anything before then (Peco, Poole-Farish Lima) are generic / Imressionistic and to be brutally honest it is futile trying to match them to specific types...
I'm sorry, but that itself is just a generalisation and in many cases untrue. While the new models are better, several of the older ones can be improved, often by mounting on a better and/or more appropriate chassis. Where there is an equivalent new model it's probably not worthwhile, but there are still many where there is no replacement is available yet.
Quote from: BernardTPM on February 14, 2014, 09:38:25 PM
The single vent van is actually the LNER version rather than LMS, though the two had very similar designs. The LMS used a flatter roof profile than the LNER and, as built, their sliding doors didn't have the central horizontal. Another LNER only feature are the two pressings above the end vent. There's now a new super-detailed version on the LNER fitted underframe, though the old body could still be used to represent the unfitted van.
For LMS vans you're better off using the NGS kit NGK018, however only the earlier body is really correct for your period - perhaps you could find someone (BR 1960s modeller?) who wants more of the later type.
The Midland van (NGK003) would still be common well into the 1930s.
Thanks for pointing out the NGS kits that would be more than suitable replacements. It's much harder to estimate whether these would be suitable when you've never seen them in detail, so that's really helpful advice. I've noted those two kits in my stocklist and will certainly give them a try. I'm sure I'll be able to find an early BR modeller to take the later type off my hands. People modelling the BR steam period seem to be in the majority.
Do you know any diagram and running numbers for NGK018 and NGK003? I'll probably end up with half a dozen of them eventually as they will replace the RTR versions, so advance info would be very useful.
Quote from: PLD on February 14, 2014, 11:57:05 PM
I'd summarise that anything designed in the last 10 years (Dapol, Farish items newly introduced since the Bachman takeover) are reasonably acurate models of specific types. Anything before then (Peco, Poole-Farish Lima) are generic / Imressionistic and to be brutally honest it is futile trying to match them to specific types...
Only resistance is futile. :) I feel that, at the very least, the old wagons are a good staring point for those returning to the hobby (like me), so that you can get something to hook onto your locomotives. They also serve to draw you in and find out more about what you're running (which is what I'm doing here). That way you can learn which are the truly unrealistic or period-inaccurate models, which can be replaced by kits or with modifications, and which wagons are pretty acceptable. It's all an exercise in familiarisation and expanding one's knowledge, so I'm finding it pretty useful.
If I recall, NGK18 builds diagram 1664/1676 (planked end, vent or non vent...I think) of 1924-28 vintage, and fairly closely based on the Midland diagram 633 10T vans that preceded them if you make a few modifications. The other van in the kit builds a diagram 1814 van of around 1928-32, notable by the horizontal planking, but remove the vertical braces these were internally braced. If you add diagonal bracing to the horizontal planked van at either end you'll have a diagram 1897, of the mid '30s. Also, if you combine the vert planked sides with the pressed steel ends of the two vans, and add in the required wrap around onto the ends you can also build diagram 1832 also of around the 1930 period. Or horizontal plank sides, steel ends and vert planked door for a diagram 1891. These kits really can be kitbashed around!
NGK003 builds a Midland railway diagram 360-2 10T van as far as I can tell.
I'd also disagree with a general statement that old RTR wagons aren't worth bothering with compared to kits; certainly there are some (like the Farish pseudo-SR van) which don't accurately resemble any real prototype, and others (such as the Farish ex-NSR open and GNR fish van, and possibly Peco's Butterley steel open) which are rare/obscure prototypes that weren't often seen in service, there are plenty which are at least passable representations of common prototypes, especially after repainting + weathering, and unlike kits can often be picked up cheaply second-hand. This is the main reason I thought a list of RTR wagon IDs would be handy.
Two other Peco wagons I haven't identified yet are:
- 15' tube/pipe wagon. I can't find a match for this in any of my photos or drawings of BR designs (the double side doors are the main difference).
- 15' open wagon with tarpaulin frame. Again I don't have any photos or plans matching this, the angled brackets and door style are rather reminiscent of SR designs (and SR livery seems to be the commonest for this model).
I'm mainly interested in IDing older RTR models from the 1980s and earlier, not current Bachmann Farish + Dapol products, most of which are more or less accurate models of specific prototypes (even if they sometimes appear in non-historic liveries)
Reference books I've been using (along with the Internet) are British Railways Wagons (D. Rowland), Historic Wagon Drawings (F.J. Roche), Rolling Stock Worth Modelling vol. 1 and 2, and The 4mm Wagon vol. 1 and 2.
Quote from: E Pinniger on February 15, 2014, 04:13:19 PM
Two other Peco wagons I haven't identified yet are:
- 15' tube/pipe wagon. I can't find a match for this in any of my photos or drawings of BR designs (the double side doors are the main difference).
- 15' open wagon with tarpaulin frame. Again I don't have any photos or plans matching this, the angled brackets and door style are rather reminiscent of SR designs (and SR livery seems to be the commonest for this model).
These are both BR Ferry wagons. Unfortunately the Ferry Tube (dia. 1/449 1959) is much shorter than it should be, so much so that it's probably not worth bothering with. It might be feasible to rebuild a Chivers BR Tube wagon using the detail strapping sliced off the Peco body to replace/rework the three centre panels. Hard though that might be its probably easier than trying to splice two Peco bodies together!
The high open is a Southern Region Ferry Open diagram 1/055 built 1957. This is much closer to the prototype, just a few mm
over length. I can't see Farish or Dapol rushing to make a better one though! In the 1980s the GWS ran a couple of these in GW livery on Speedlink services to supply their Didcot centre with coal, something for the 'Prototype for Everything' album. Being ferry wagons they were dual braked. Some did get the Railfreight red/grey livery with the TOPS code OJX - Peco do make it in red/grey but with an OBA TOPS code. Paul Bartlett has a good selection of photos of them here: http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brferryopen (http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brferryopen)
Quote from: BernardTPM on February 15, 2014, 04:36:42 PM
These are both BR Ferry wagons. Unfortunately the Ferry Tube (dia. 1/449 1959) is much shorter than it should be, so much so that it's probably not worth bothering with. It might be feasible to rebuild a Chivers BR Tube wagon using the detail strapping sliced off the Peco body to replace the three centre panels. Hard though that might be its probably easier than trying to splice two Peco bodies together!
The high open is a Southern Region Ferry Open diagram 1/055 built 1957. This is much closer to the prototype, just a few mm over length. I can't see Farish or Dapol rushing to make a better one though! In the 1980s the GWS ran a couple of these in GW livery on Speedlink services to supply their Didcot centre with coal, something for the 'Prototype for Everything' album. Being ferry wagons they were dual braked. Some did get the Railfreight red/grey livery with the TOPS code OJX - Peco do make it in red/grey but with an OBA TOPS code. Paul Bartlett has a good selection of photos of them here: http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brferryopen (http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brferryopen)
Thanks very much for the info! I'll add this to my list (which I'll get round to posting in a day or two once I've edited the info to a more readable format).
Does the tarpaulin/high open wagon have any basis in a pre-nationalisation SR design, or is this just another case of RTR manufacturers being creative with their choice of livery? And were they ever fitted with tarpaulin frames as on the Peco model? (shouldn't be hard to remove if not, given that the wagons will need repainting in BR livery in any case)
(edit) Regarding the Peco Butterley wagon, according to this document - http://www.jthjth.plus.com/freight/16t%20steel%20mineral%20wagons.pdf (http://www.jthjth.plus.com/freight/16t%20steel%20mineral%20wagons.pdf) - it is a one-off prototype 14t mineral wagon built by Butterley in 1940. Not sure why Peco picked this for their model rather than a production design :confused2: but IMO it looks similar enough to many of the numerous pre-BR steel open wagon designs that I wouldn't have any problem with running multiple examples on my layout!
The Ferry Open does have Southern features, notably the side hinged top flaps. When originally released (late '60s) the model did have a tarpaulin bar and was in BR(SR) ferry livery.
I haven't had a chance to do much for the last couple of days, but the kit version of this thread can be found here: http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=19581.0 (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=19581.0)
My question about the tarpaulin bars on the "SR" ferry wagon was referring to the prototype rather than the model (the one example I have, in SR livery, does have the bar)
Yet another wagon I haven't managed to ID is the Farish mineral/ore hopper as seen at the top of this page:
http://www.stepo.net/pages/wagons/hopper_short.html (http://www.stepo.net/pages/wagons/hopper_short.html) (don't have any of this wagon type myself). I think it might be a pre-nationalisation PO type but I'm not sure of the exact prototype.
The other Farish hopper (mostly in cement liveries) appears to be the BR diagram 1/273 20T hopper wagon.
I'm afraid that's not a real wagon, but simply a Presflo without a roof, the load does the job of the roof holding it together. One to sell to the collectors!
Quote from: E Pinniger on February 17, 2014, 07:10:42 PM
My question about the tarpaulin bars on the "SR" ferry wagon was referring to the prototype rather than the model (the one example I have, in SR livery, does have the bar)
I have a few of the SR ferry wagons too. I haven't researched them yet, but I had a feeling that they were based on a mid-1930s original. Of course I could be wrong!
Later than that, I'm afraid. As I mentioned a few posts up, they were built in 1957 and did have tarpaulin bars when new.
Quote from: BernardTPM on February 17, 2014, 08:45:09 PM
Later than that, I'm afraid. As I mentioned a few posts up, they were built in 1957 and did have tarpaulin bars when new.
Yes, it seems that Peco were a little too flexible with historical accuracy on this one. The SR ferry wagon shouldn't even be SR at all. If you don't have the reference books, this site backs up the information:
http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/gansg/4-rstock/04arstock9.htm (http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/gansg/4-rstock/04arstock9.htm)
I've already weathered two of mine and made loads for three, so I'll have to keep those for 1947 operations and just hope that no rivet counters spot it. The other three can be sold.
This page adds even more info and some useful photos for BR modellers:
http://www.railalbum.co.uk/railway-wagons/ferry/britain-br-ferry-open-1.htm (http://www.railalbum.co.uk/railway-wagons/ferry/britain-br-ferry-open-1.htm)
Quote from: BernardTPM on February 17, 2014, 08:31:15 PM
I'm afraid that's not a real wagon, but simply a Presflo without a roof, the load does the job of the roof holding it together. One to sell to the collectors!
Thanks for the info - I probably should have noticed that but the big board/placard on the side made it less obvious, at least in the photos! Certainly one to avoid, unless you have some spare Presflo roofs lying around...
It's looking as though the Peco SR cattle wagon is another piece of fantasy. I might be wrong, but it seems to be based on BR Diagram 1/353, built between 1949-1954 and based on a final GWR design. So not SR (or LMS - Peco have it available for them too) at all.
With both the Farish and Peco 1970s ranges there it was normal to offer all the types of wagon in all the company liveries even if only one was technically correct. The only real exception was brake vans - a GWR toad can't really be anything else, though Peco did manage to make BR, LNER and MR vans out of their basic body by having a ducket-less side tool for the body (and did a very dodgy SR kit version too). In a way we were lucky that between them they did three different 'normal' vans so we (almost) had correct GWR, SR & LNER types.
Incidentally, the Farish Cattle wagon is based on early LMS practice, D1661 1922-31, (wrong length though, as is the Peco) but the top of the sides was altered twice during its life so later versions are too tall with a horrible thick plank just below the roof. If you can live with the approx. 3mm length deficiency hunt out the earlier ones.
Quote from: BernardTPM on February 18, 2014, 10:37:00 PM
With both the Farish and Peco 1970s ranges there it was normal to offer all the types of wagon in all the company liveries even if only one was technically correct. The only real exception was brake vans - a GWR toad can't really be anything else, though Peco did manage to make BR, LNER and MR vans out of their basic body by having a ducket-less side tool for the body (and did a very dodgy SR kit version too). In a way we were lucky that between them they did three different 'normal' vans so we (almost) had correct GWR, SR & LNER types.
Incidentally, the Farish Cattle wagon is based on early LMS practice, D1661 1922-31, (wrong length though, as is the Peco) but the top of the sides was altered twice during its life so later versions are too tall with a horrible thick plank just below the roof. If you can live with the approx. 3mm length deficiency hunt out the earlier ones.
I'm definitely not buying any more old wagons. I've far too many to sell already and replace with kits. The LMS cattle wagon I think I can live with, under the circumstances. I have two in LMS colours and one in SR brown, which was already scheduled to be repainted in grey. I had these down as Diagram 1840, the LMS version of the MR wagon, but D1661 works even better for me, thanks.
Well, here's my list of RTR wagons (all older products which IMO are the ones most in need of this sort of info). The list of accuracy issues isn't exhaustive by any means, it's just the ones I know about! Possibly after some improvement + correction this list will be worth adding to the N gauge wiki.
Thanks to Pete33 and other forum members for help with IDing some of the wagon types. The Farish horse box (not the new Mk1 one) is a type I'm still not sure about. There are a lot of types from the pre-grouping era with a very similar appearance and door/window layout.
Peco:
5-plank open - LMS 10t open wagon
7-plank open - LMS 12t mineral wagon
Butterley steel open - Prototype (only one built) 14t open wagon built by Butterley in 1940
Plate wagon - BR 22t plate wagon, Diagram 1/430
Bolster wagons - BR 26t bolster wagon set, Diag 1/410
Twin bolster wagon - BR 21t double bolster wagon, Diag 1/415
Tarpaulin wagon - BR ferry open wagon, Diag 1/055
Tube wagon - BR ferry tube wagon, Diag 1/449 (body too short)
Standard box van - GWR 12t ventilated van
Refrigerated/banana van - SR 10t banana van
Cattle truck - BR standard 8t cattle wagon, Diag 1/353
Pallet van - BR 22t pallet van, Diag 1/235
Parcels van - BR 12t Insulfish/SPV parcels van, Diag 1/801 (body too long)
Conflat - BR 13t container flat wagon, Diag 1/069
Peak roof wagon - RCH 10t peak roof wagon
10' tank wagon - RCH 1927 tank wagon
15' tank wagon - BR 45t tank wagon
LMS brake van - LMS 20t 10' brake van
LNER brake van - LNER 20t 10' brake van
SR brake van - SR 25t 16' brake van (body significantly too long)
BR brake van - BR standard 20t brake van, Diag 1/506; also produced in LNER livery
Graham Farish:
5-plank open - SR 12t open wagon
7-plank open - LMS ex-NSR 15t loco coal wagon
Steel open - LMS 16t steel mineral wagon
Box van 1 - LNER 12t van
Box van 2 - SR 12t van with irregular planked sides (inaccurate roof shape)
Cattle truck - LMS large cattle van
Fish van - LNER ex-GNR fish van
Open hopper - Non-prototypical design based on the Presflo mould
Covered hopper - BR 20t "Presflo" hopper wagon, Diag 1/273
Tar tank wagon - Charles Roberts 8-12t rectangular tank wagon
Horse box - not sure
SR brake van - SR 20t ex-LBSCR brake van; also produced in LMS and LNER livery
GWR brake van - GWR 20t brake van "Toad"
Minitrix:
8-plank open - RCH 1923 8-plank 10/12t P.O. wagon
Steel open - BR 16t mineral wagon, Diag 1/108 (overscale body)
Box van/Shocvan - BR standard 12t goods van, Diag 1/208
Tank wagon - RCH 1927 tank wagon (some detail differences to Peco model)
BR brake van - BR standard 20t brake van, Diag 1/506
Lima:
7-plank open: RCH 1923 7-plank mineral wagon
Steel open - BR 16t mineral wagon, Diag 1/108
Box van - BR standard 12t goods van, Diag 1/208
Horse box - GWR horse box "Paco", Diag N16
Siphon bogie van - GWR Siphon G, Diag O33
BR brake van - BR standard 20t brake van
GWR brake van - GWR 20t brake van "Toad", some detail differences to Farish model (earlier prototype)
The Farish SR brake van is a late LBSCR design (same as Hornby did: http://www.kmgmodeltrains.co.uk/images/022.JPG (http://www.kmgmodeltrains.co.uk/images/022.JPG) ) and reasonably accurate. More prototype detail in Terry Gough's article in RM May 1971 which I can't at easily find at the moment!
The Lima Siphon G is dia. O.33, built in many lots from 1930. There were several different types of bogies used, the earliest batch using the 7' plate bogies (Dapol spare NBOG1 http://www.modelrailwaysdirect.co.uk/Dapol-NBOG1-Pair-of-Short-Coupling-Bogies-for-B-Sets/ (http://www.modelrailwaysdirect.co.uk/Dapol-NBOG1-Pair-of-Short-Coupling-Bogies-for-B-Sets/)). The horsebox is dia. N16 of 1937.
I always thought the body of the Lima GWR brake van was rather better than the (admittedly earlier) Farish version, though the chassis suffered from the usual Lima fault of excess ride height. Technically the Lima version is an earlier version as the upright angles on the body are the type that tuck under the lower edge of the body whereas the old Farish one has them continuing straight down over the solebar (the new Farish model seems to be the same as the Lima type). Prototype examples:
Lima & new Farish: http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/gwrbrakevan/h21be9cf9#h21be9cf9 (http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/gwrbrakevan/h21be9cf9#h21be9cf9)
Old Farish: http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/gwrbrakevan/h29ce7d03#h29ce7d03 (http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/gwrbrakevan/h29ce7d03#h29ce7d03)
Note, however, that the underside of the verandah end on the old Farish model is wrong in being taken across flat - that needs altering (carefully!)
Quote from: BernardTPM on February 19, 2014, 06:47:33 PM
The Farish SR brake van is a late LBSCR design (same as Hornby did: http://www.kmgmodeltrains.co.uk/images/022.JPG (http://www.kmgmodeltrains.co.uk/images/022.JPG) ) and reasonably accurate. More prototype detail in Terry Gough's article in RM May 1971 which I can't at easily find at the moment!
Back in the seventies I probably had that very issue, along with a stack of back issues from the sixties. It's a shame I don't have them now because I can't find a single thing on the Farish model online. There are plenty of photos showing a two-side-window version, but nothing at all with a single side-window that matches the Farish version.
Quote from: BernardTPM on February 19, 2014, 09:44:05 PM
The Lima Siphon G is dia. O.33, built in many lots from 1930. There were several different types of bogies used, the earliest batch using the 7' plate bogies (Dapol spare)
The Dapol Siphon chassis is also a pretty much perfect fit for the Lima body and as well as coupling and running way better its sometimes cheaper than a pair of spare bogies
Quote from: EtchedPixels on February 21, 2014, 10:36:50 PM
The Dapol Siphon chassis is also a pretty much perfect fit for the Lima body and as well as coupling and running way better its sometimes cheaper than a pair of spare bogies
Trouble is, the underframe detailing is wrong for the later Siphons which had battery boxes rather than gas cylinders. A few did have the 9ft plates (some even used some 8' 6" w.b. bogies which I assume were recovered from the experimental articulated stock when it was rebuilt to conventional form) but the most common type under inside framed Siphon Gs are the Pressed Steel type. In fact the bogies for the new N Gauge Society K41 would be perfect, though as the K41 couplings are going to be body mounted (on a close-coupling mech) it wouldn't be an easy option.
Has anyone managed to work out how accurate the Dapol wagon is and which diagram it matches?
Dapol Cat No 2F-071-005, SR 10T 7 Plank Wagon Diagram ? No 37423 Built ?
Alternative running numbers: ?
After a very long search, I think I might have pinned down the SR conflats being offered by Robbie's Rolling Stock. The Conflat B and Conflat S seem to be Diagrams 1382 and 1383, although 1382a and 1399 might also be viable. The trouble is that there seem to be no photos online that can be matched up to the model form.
http://www.robbiesrollingstock.co.uk/images/Containers/SR_ZZ_Type2.jpg (http://www.robbiesrollingstock.co.uk/images/Containers/SR_ZZ_Type2.jpg)
All I found, on another forum, was this:
Diagrams 1383 1382* 1382A 1399 were built as 'conflats'. Although only 1382 1382A and 1399 could reasonably be classed as conflats as they were built post 1932 (after it was found 'necessary to build special wagons for the conveyance of containers).
There is a brand new Diagram 1382 'Conflat B' on page 47 of 'An Illustrated History of Southern Wagons'.
However on page 53 there is a photo of a '1399' labelled 'Carfit S'.
So they probably went from one to the other over their life.
I didn't necessarily mean to suggest that the function of container carrier predated use as carriage trucks, just that at least some (most???) of these flats were originally built for container traffic.
*some 1382 wagons were built with in 1931 (at the same time as the 1383 wagons - I know a that doesn't make sense but that's diagram books for you)
That's about as accurate as I can hope to be without having the reference book itself. So we're left like this:
Robbie's Rolling Stock Cat No C25, SR 12T Conflat B Diagram 1382? No 39796 Built 1930-31? Carrying a Southampton Docks container.
Alternative running numbers: ?
Robbie's Rolling Stock Cat No C26, SR 12T Conflat S Diagram 1383? No 39372 Built 1930-31? Carrying a Type T2 Zigzag SR furniture container.
Alternative running numbers: ?
Robbie's Rolling Stock Cat No C27, SR 12T Conflat S Diagram 1383? No 39940 Built 1930-31? Carrying an 'insulated for perishables' container.
Alternative running numbers: ?
Robbie's Rolling Stock Cat No C29, SR 12T Conflat B Diagram 1382? No 240728 Built 1930-31? Carrying a Type B door-to-door container.
Alternative running numbers: ?
Robbie's Rolling Stock Cat No C30, SR 12T Conflat B Diagram 1382? No 39705 Built 1930-31? Carrying a Type M ventilated road-rail container.
Alternative running numbers: ?
Robbie's Rolling Stock Cat No C31, SR 12T Conflat B Diagram 1382? No 39777 Built 1930-31? Carrying a Pickfords Removals container.
Alternative running numbers: ?
This one took a bit of work, but I'm pretty sure it's correct:
Dapol (all models), SR 14T Covcar/CCT Van Diagram 3101 No 23xx Built 1938. 2+2 plank arrangement but doors are even planked, matching this to a single batch built at Ashford and Eastleigh in Nov-Dec 1938. Dapol numbering and lettering is post-Nationalisation and needs to be removed and reapplied in different locations for SR.
Alternative running numbers: 1731-80