Have taken the chips out of my locos and sold the dcc system why some will ask well the conversion,the trouble of identifying locos when you two or three ie dmu's that look the same and numbers to small to see keeping track and locos pick up,s clean keeping a roster list .So back to beaning able to take the loco out of the box and just running it .I gave dcc a good go of over four years but much happier now :claphappy:
Kevin 141
Interesting :hmmm:
You won't get away without track and pick up cleaning though :no: :D
I can sympathise with the "reading small numbers"- I have a ten road fiddle yard on Hawthorn Dene with two trains to the row. I've worked out a system for identifying the trains.
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/albums/pics_from_Les1952/Dir_1/medium_9843.jpg) (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=9843)
On the back of the backscene is stuck a magnetic strip (99p for four from the Book Cellar- others are available). Shorter pieces of the same strip have card glued to them with a description and the number and address of each loco/DMU. Examples-
WD 90014 The bold is the DCC identifier for the loco.
2-car DMU 101
The loco descriptors are placed on the strips so each strip has the two locos on that road of the fiddle yard- 5 strips only at each end, by the yard exit.
Works well on a steam loco-based layout- limitations are that two locos of the same class shouldn't be on the same road if possible, and operators need to be able to tell a WD from an A4 or a 3MT tank from a Type 2 diesel for instance.
Operators are finding this much easier to work than the analogue system on Furtwangen Ost.
Hope someone finds this helpful.
Les
Quote from: newportnobby on January 25, 2014, 08:55:12 PM
Interesting :hmmm:
You won't get away without track and pick up cleaning though :no: :D
I know but it is much easier on dc plus being a old tv and video repair man there is still some good switch cleaner products out there so much easier to keep loco and track running
kevin
I started out at a time when I didn't know what DCC was. After I bought so much stuff and had my layout so far along...I felt the die had been cast. So, I'm a DC man. Even if I do other layouts in the future, I also like the idea of being able to just quickly get things up and running and not having to hassle with DCC boards and taking the locos apart. I'm not too handy with that kind of thing, anyhow.
Your not alone here. I have done the same. In saying goodbye to dcc. Partly as you mention and partly because I built myself a dc/pulse control for my em stock and found it worked justaas well on n gauge.
Jon
I must admit I'm going back to DC as well though I might go back to DCC sometime in the future. I broke my class101 trying to open it also trying to make my small layout live I realised I'm worse at wiring then I first thought.
So I've orded some Kato unitrack much easier for the wiring. With dccc not only do you need a decoder in each loco but also for switches as well.
I'm still not sure to sell my controller though.
Ian
Each to his own, I guess, but DCC holds so much more for me. Just so easy to run multiple trains…but whatever works for you is the right way to go
There's no right or wrong way to enjoy the hobby at the end of the day.
I would also like to add that the only good controllers seem to be the really expensive ones otherwise it's all cv45=56 cv42=23 malarki. I must admit was a bit dissapointed also the only good decoders are the expensive ones.
All this 2 wires to track and easy to use is just a myth. But then again I would need to open my DMU for maintenance anyway. I also managed to do double heading 2 trains moving in different direction on the track. So not all bad.
Ian
Interesting. I have been 'definitely going over to DCC' for some time but put it on ice because of the cost of chipping my trains. As time goes by, I become less and less enthused to convert :(
Well this is an interesting topic, if you want to buy a cheap train off ebay then chances are they are not chipped and it would be an advantage to have a DC setup, I have toiled over the idea of going back to DC but I am going to in the future do a layout for DC only, just a straight forward shunting yard with a hidden transverser, I can see where Kevin is coming from, and it must be a pain when you have the same type loco and not know the address, but at least with DCC you can run as many locos on the same track if you wish, plus I feel the decoders do look after the motor on the loco.
Such a big choice to make after splashing out a lot for the decoders and the DCC system.
I also feel there is a frustration with DCC and like Ian has stated I feel you need an expensive system to get it right, all I have is a Sprog and a Dynamis and sometimes I would like to throw it out of the window, I have my eye on a couple of systems but I need to be sure, I am looking at all avenues and Trix is supposed to be coming out with a new controller I only hope they are going to learn off other mistakes by other makers, another option I am looking at is Merg and That could be to much for me to take in, I do like there ATC for a DC system though.
Oh well back to the drawing board for me and good luck with the DC route.
I gave up DCC in favour of battery powered radio control. I was always too lazy to keep my wheels and track clean enough - now I don't have to - they just work.
I haven't tested it myself but someone else said that locos get better adhesion on dirty track, which sounds reasonable.
...R
Quote from: kevin141 on January 25, 2014, 09:09:54 PM
Quote from: newportnobby on January 25, 2014, 08:55:12 PM
Interesting :hmmm:
You won't get away without track and pick up cleaning though :no: :D
I know but it is much easier on dc plus being a old tv and video repair man there is still some good switch cleaner products out there so much easier to keep loco and track running
kevin
Kevin apart from what the majority of us know about, to which products are you referring?
Regards, Peter.
An interesting trend (going from DCC to DC) if there are more than just a handful of people doing it. In the photography world there are just a handful of people bucking the trend and going from digital to film but they really are rarities.
Cost seems to me to be the real issue but that could change as it did for digital cameras. The added advantages of DCC seem impossible to deny - but the cost of getting above the merest basics turns a very very cheap hobby into one as expensive as many others.
Quote from: Agrafarfan on January 25, 2014, 10:06:13 PM
I would also like to add that the only good controllers seem to be the really expensive ones otherwise it's all cv45=56 cv42=23 malarki. I must admit was a bit dissapointed also the only good decoders are the expensive ones.
All this 2 wires to track and easy to use is just a myth. But then again I would need to open my DMU for maintenance anyway. I also managed to do double heading 2 trains moving in different direction on the track. So not all bad.
Ian
I don't know which controllers you are looking at and I can only speak from my experience but here it is for what its worth…
I decided to build my current layout, all new after house move, to be totally DCC. I did a bit of research and bought an NCE Powercab at a very reasonable £135 from digitrains - its easy to set up both the locos and accessory decoders for points etc. You can program locos on a test track, which I do, and also on the layout itself, for fine tuning. When I say program its really more like just setting them up, I work in IT so I know what programming is, and this, it definitely is not ;)
The layout has a double track main continuous loop, and a branch that climbs and negotiates itself around three walls of the room, there are two significant shunting industrial areas, the layout has over 40 points all DCC - I know the decoders are not cheap but it was comparable in cost to all the passing contact switches and stuff you need to control DC points.
The wiring is not simple "two wires to the track" but a main bus with drop feeds to track and accessory decoders and I will say its much simpler than the rats nest I ended up with on the last layout which was nowhere near as extensive as this one. Also, its much easier to troubleshoot any defects and glitches as a result.
Loco decoders - you get what you pay for but around £20 gets a very reasonable Digitrax or CTElektronic chip which give superb slow and high speed control.
I went NCE as it looked easy to expand if necessary, I considered getting a 5 amp booster but Jeremy at Digitrains advised against it as the was unlikely even with two operators we'd blow the 2 amp limit on the Powercab. Yesterday we had 4 locos running on the continuous loop plus another two trains on the branch and never got anywhere near one amp on the monitor. I have an additional NCE Cab for the second operator, and if theres only me I use both handsets depending on which part of the layout I'm using.
Yes it costs an extra £20 'ish per loco, plus accessory decoders (£400 'ish), and hand sets (£250..) but I couldn't revert to DC after using this setup… :)
Oh, I also use the Powercab for mucking about with my sound fitted Ixion O gauge Hudswell Clarke. 8)
Quote from: Pengi on January 26, 2014, 08:12:35 AM
Interesting. I have been 'definitely going over to DCC' for some time but put it on ice because of the cost of chipping my trains. As time goes by, I become less and less enthused to convert :(
Doesn't float my boat either. The main advantage to me of DCC is that lights stay on when the train stops, but that seems a low return for the extra effort in chipping the locos, and the operational hassle of having to select a loco before you can drive it.
Also, I like the satisfaction of designing and wiring the cab control and sections and getting it all to work! I guess I am more a signalman than a train driver (and actually have another hobby of operating a preserved signal box). And from the advice that seems to be given, DCC seems more hassle to wire with all those droppers, busses and modified points.
I guess one day I will be forced to go DCC when all locos come ready-chipped and DC controllers are no longer produced, but until then, I am very happy in a DC world!
Cheers Jon :)
I did consider going DCC for increased shunting play value but I like the Kato transformer with it's ultra convenient clip-on point switches, I'd have to give all that up if I went DCC (or there would be some expensive solution to keep them. DC ain't difficult!
Quote from: ParkeNd on January 26, 2014, 09:17:45 AM
An interesting trend (going from DCC to DC) if there are more than just a handful of people doing it. In the photography world there are just a handful of people bucking the trend and going from digital to film but they really are rarities.
There's more than a few! The rise of the 'Lomography' brand has made trendy cheap plastic cameras inspired by the soviet era ones people didn't want in the 60s/70s/80s to give them the unusual effects only plastic lenses/cheap film/light leaks gives. I myself shoot a Canon F1 for fun over my full frame Canon 6D work cameras as I want very high image quality out of the convenient 135 format, as well as using something which focuses nicely (better than my £1000+ L series lenses) and is well built.
Case study of why film can make more sense than digital:
A friend who shoots his 10mp £200 crop sensor digital SLR is disappointed with how wide he can go for his once every 2 month landscape shoots. A 18-55mm lens is equivalent to 29mm-88mm is too narrow/normal so the next port of call is the 10-22 (16mm- 35mm equivalent) but this is about £420 secondhand. I suggested a £100 film SLR setup with a 17, 19 or 24mm lens, loaded with Fujifilm Velvia which, when properly scanned, will yield an image equivalent to a 40 or 50mp camera. So in effect, a 50mp full frame digital camera for £100!!
Just to chuck in my half penny's worth, I use both systems. My layout is wired for DCC, with point control on a mimic panel with a probe. The layout has a 5 pin DIN socket on the edge and my 2 controllers have plugs on them. I have about 15 Chipped and about 10 unchipped locos. I convert the DC locos when I can afford to, or am able to.
Personally I do not think DC is going anywhere, as we all know when you open your shiny new expensive, intelligent DCC loco the first thing the instructions say is to "Run it in using DC" so really you need to purchase a DC controller anyway to look after your loco.
As relative newbie to this hobby I have gone the DCC route, but the more I get into it the more I think I have gone the wrong route. I feel DCC locos are not as wide spread to purchase off the shelf, and any locos I have an interest in are either none existent or I will have to buy DC and get them converted.
Just recently I was looking for a class 170 in London Midland, I could get DC no problems, DCC not a sniff. I settled for a class 350 4 car unit in the same livery as a compromise, but this requires 3 decoders which will nearly cost as much as the train itself!
Now I am lucky that I have good disposable income and SWMBO doesn't really care what I do, but even I will draw the line at spending above £75 to get a couple of LED's to go from white to red. So at the moment the jury is still out on this loco as to whether I keep it or chuck it on ebay. Actually I do not know whether to chuck the whole lot on there and go DC or even go to the dark side.
I feel sometimes with this DCC hobby we are being held to ransom over the cost of these micro chips, we all know micro chips are "cheap as chips" you can go to Tesco's and buy a tablet computer for around £80-£100 bristling with micro chips that will do a bit more than make a train go backwards and forwards and turn the lights white to red.
Nuff said.
Ian.
Quote from: petercharlesfagg on January 26, 2014, 09:01:17 AM
Quote from: kevin141 on January 25, 2014, 09:09:54 PM
Quote from: newportnobby on January 25, 2014, 08:55:12 PM
Interesting :hmmm:
You won't get away without track and pick up cleaning though :no: :D
I know but it is much easier on dc plus being a old tv and video repair man there is still some good switch cleaner products out there so much easier to keep loco and track running
kevin
Kevin apart from what the majority of us know about, to which products are you referring?
Regards, Peter.
I had full dynamis system pro box as well it worked fine for me i got it because i liked the wireless idea tv remote idea if you like but it was all the other messing about that got to me in the end the attraction of being able to take the loco out of the box and running is the main reason for going back to dc so you can often pick up older locos and know you can just run them after a service so for me that is what i do .
kevin141
I actually have two layouts on the go at the moment, one analogue and one DCC.
Furtwangen Ost is analogue and will remain so- trams and small Continental locos- the locos could be chipped but the trams are a sight more difficult. Added to that the layout is complete and on the exhibition circuit, so why change it?
Hawthorn Dene was a different matter- I had got all the droppers in and the track soak tested with everything going down to three pairs of wires. To finish the job as analogue would have involved making and wiring three panels with a total of well over 50 sections to unlink and wire to separate switches, buying three new controllers and two new transformers. I also had the advantage of being able to sell a number of locos and stock I was supplying to a different pair of exhibition layouts- because their owner had sold the layouts on. This money has covered the cost of chipping locos for Hawthorn Dene.
HD's points are all "digital"- in the fiddle yard worked by the operator's digits (fingers) and in the colliery by wire-in-tube (and fingers- digits- to work the levers... With Powercabs the three pairs of wires were joined to make a single pair to the controllers- advantage is that either cab can control any loco on any of the three physically separate (but electrically linked) circuits on the layout.
HD is my second excursion into DCC- the first ended when I changed from US to UK outline quite a few years back. As far as I'm concerned it is "horses for courses"- no two people have the same experience or circumstances.
All the very best
Les
Quote from: shandy on January 26, 2014, 09:50:17 AM
... I did a bit of research and bought an NCE Powercab at a very reasonable £135 from digitrains ...
Yes it costs an extra £20 'ish per loco, plus accessory decoders (£400 'ish), and hand sets (£250..) but I couldn't revert to DC after using this setup… :)
Does the £250 for handsets include the £135 for the Powercab?
In any case, £650 + £20 per loco is a pretty large amount of dosh... think how many additional locos and coaches could be bought with that money...
My layout is DC and I'm not of the inclination to change to DCC - particularly because of the old stuff I've got, and has anyone managed to get a chip in a 'Terrier' yet?
I think it's horses for courses, if you're happy with DC then go for it - and the same if you're happy with DCC...
Quote from: d-a-n on January 26, 2014, 10:23:17 AM
I did consider going DCC for increased shunting play value but I like the Kato transformer with it's ultra convenient clip-on point switches, I'd have to give all that up if I went DCC (or there would be some expensive solution to keep them. DC ain't difficult!
Quote from: ParkeNd on January 26, 2014, 09:17:45 AM
An interesting trend (going from DCC to DC) if there are more than just a handful of people doing it. In the photography world there are just a handful of people bucking the trend and going from digital to film but they really are rarities.
There's more than a few! The rise of the 'Lomography' brand has made trendy cheap plastic cameras inspired by the soviet era ones people didn't want in the 60s/70s/80s to give them the unusual effects only plastic lenses/cheap film/light leaks gives. I myself shoot a Canon F1 for fun over my full frame Canon 6D work cameras as I want very high image quality out of the convenient 135 format, as well as using something which focuses nicely (better than my £1000+ L series lenses) and is well built.
Case study of why film can make more sense than digital:
A friend who shoots his 10mp £200 crop sensor digital SLR is disappointed with how wide he can go for his once every 2 month landscape shoots. A 18-55mm lens is equivalent to 29mm-88mm is too narrow/normal so the next port of call is the 10-22 (16mm- 35mm equivalent) but this is about £420 secondhand. I suggested a £100 film SLR setup with a 17, 19 or 24mm lens, loaded with Fujifilm Velvia which, when properly scanned, will yield an image equivalent to a 40 or 50mp camera. So in effect, a 50mp full frame digital camera for £100!!
Out of context I know - but I use a Nikon D700 full frame with 24-70 f/2.8, and 18-35 lenses. And a Nikon F2 Photomic with the same lenses. But I agree that crop sensor digital is inferior to both.
However, back in context, I would think that the advances made with cheap high megapixel plastic bodied digital cameras in terms of price/performance ratio could be mirrored in DCC. I'm a DC user because of the cost of DCC but I would suggest that price/performance ratio could also improve there too. If that happens it could halt the swing - if it exists to any great extent.
Quote from: talisman56 on January 26, 2014, 04:46:54 PM
Quote from: shandy on January 26, 2014, 09:50:17 AM
... I did a bit of research and bought an NCE Powercab at a very reasonable £135 from digitrains ...
Yes it costs an extra £20 'ish per loco, plus accessory decoders (£400 'ish), and hand sets (£250..) but I couldn't revert to DC after using this setup… :)
Does the £250 for handsets include the £135 for the Powercab?
In any case, £650 + £20 per loco is a pretty large amount of dosh... think how many additional locos and coaches could be bought with that money...
My layout is DC and I'm not of the inclination to change to DCC - particularly because of the old stuff I've got, and has anyone managed to get a chip in a 'Terrier' yet?
I think it's horses for courses, if you're happy with DC then go for it - and the same if you're happy with DCC...
The £250 was for a PowerCab (£135) plus a later purchase of the additional PowerPro (£110) and an extra jack-point (£10) to hook up the second handset at the other side of the layout. The additional £400 covers the accessory decoders for signals and points, for 40+ points you'd spend quite a bit on equivalent DC control stuff. It wasn't all forked out at once either - the layout was built in sections at a time so I could spread the cost.
I've got two Terriers, both chipped with Lenz silver mini's, which admittedly were more than £20 a punt.
I probably wouldn't have ever converted my old DC layout but when a house move forced a new layout upon me I decided to go DCC and haven't regretted it at all. Maybe I'm better at laying track and so on now but I definitely get better running than I ever did before.
Must admit to a bit of an obsession with prating about with electronics though, spent a summer a few years ago fitting Scalextric cars with working brake lights and flash-able headlights for my nephew (honest) ;)
I also think DC -v- DCC may have a little to do (but not always) with what kind of operations you do. I'm a continuous operations guy. I like to get the train rolling and just listen and watch while it makes its paces around the layout, while others like to do switching work and actually "play" more with their layouts. As a continuous operations guy I don't think I need DCC as much to achieve what I want.
Quote from: scottmitchell74 on January 26, 2014, 05:31:57 PM
I also think DC -v- DCC may have a little to do (but not always) with what kind of operations you do. I'm a continuous operations guy. I like to get the train rolling and just listen and watch while it makes its paces around the layout, while others like to do switching work and actually "play" more with their layouts. As a continuous operations guy I don't think I need DCC as much to achieve what I want.
With two trains on each road of the fiddle yard on a roundy-roundy with a main line that is pointless at the front, I find it useful to put both locos on the line I'm running into the cab's memory before starting the first one off, then advance the second one as soon as the first is moving- can be done with analogue but far easier to control both locos working DCC.
All the very best
Les
Shame!
I can't help but think that the OP's original issues could have been solved easily using a PC and freely available software like Jmri? I can honestly say that this software works! I use a an NCE powercab, again, an extremely nicely designed bit of kit, c £120 for the controller + PSU. I had to buy the USB interface, but it wasn't a hill of beans.
Once installed, each loco is entered into the roster, complete with a photo for easy reference! It's then simplicity itself to open up a throttle, or throttles for all your loco's, and arrange them on your screen. For those of you who have an ipad/iphone/ipod you can download the wii throttle app which basically turns your device into a throttle for the control of up to 4 trains. Once your roster is set up, you'll find it very easy to program the more intricate stuff, as it's all in a graphic interface, not a micro LCD screen! I do still use my powercab itself of course, but usually assign it to one of my more used loco's, so I can just pick it up even if the PC (Mac actually!) is off/standby.
Wiring for DCC is pretty simple, and I simply can't imagine not being able to run more than one train on each length of track, a no brainer for me. I actually think it's pretty cool to see the loco lights change from white to red once change of direction, plus they can be dimmed when in the sidings :)
I don't know if there is a way to simulate and change train momentum, or braking with DC?
Point motors can also be connected to the track bus if required (tortoise/Cobalt etc), and with an interface like the NCE Switch 8, addresses can be programed in to Jmri for route control, which is bacically a form of semi automation.
As I've said before, what's not to like?
P.S With Wii Throttle, it's really a doddle to allow a 'guest' to control one of your trains (if you could bring yourself to that is!). All they do, is download the free version to their iphone, open it up, connect to your Wii server (easy peasy as it scans for Wii servers in the vicinity!) Then just enter the loco code and away they go. I even manage to get my 16 year old daughter to partake, which she loved, highly out of character. :confused1:
Hi Ngauger,
A really interesting post - thanks! :thankyousign:
I could counter some of your points about limits of DC, but actually, what I think it comes down to is - what's not to like......all that computer/digital malarkey! I have enough of all that thrust upon me by work and social expectations!
People have talked above about an analogy with photography - I would draw one with electric guitars. It is possible to get guitar amplifiers that are fully digital with superb recreations of every sound you might want, programmable from your PC via USB or MIDI (Musical Instrument Digital Interface) etc.
What do I use? A valve amplifier tracing its roots back more than 100 years. No transistors, let alone ICs or microprocessors. Heavy, fragile, unreliable, temperamental and even dangerous, highly limited in functionality. Lovely!
By the way, I am completely happy for others to use DCC and have no intention to persuade them otherwise. It sounds from your post that you have a lot of fun with DCC, and that is great!
Cheers Jon :)
All of my locos are second-hand, and some are kits, so the thought of chipping them all for DCC puts me off straight away. I'll definitely be building a DC-only layout in the near future.
DCC has both pros and cons, largely reflecting the history and evolution of the concept. It was essentially developed in its current form in conjunction with the traditional big American-style layout, where a driver (sorry, engineer) takes control of a train then drives it right around the layout, shunting as he goes. It is less effective when you have to keep selecting and de-selecting locos, and even worse if you have to hand them off to the next operator on a signal box to signal box type of layout ("what was that loco number again?" he shouts).
In the past, the same type of large American layout often used a more complex type of DC controller, where you had additional controls to set up the starting and maximum voltages for a loco before driving the train - effectively giving the DC controller the equivalent of a DCC speed table. You'd be surprised at how much of a difference this made. There were even a few digital DC (yes, DC) controllers that actually let you set up speed tables with loco ids/names, then select a loco by name or class before running it. This type could even give you a calibrated speedometer by reading the back EMF!
Alas, these DC types have all but vanished, and all the commonly available DC controllers are low-end products (in terms of control features - I am not necessarily disparaging their running characteristics).
As I started at scratch in N, having come from OO and sold it all due to lack of space, I felt that going DCC was a sensible thing to do as I had to do everything in either one or the other. Had I already had a selection of N stock, as much as I do love DCC I don't think I would have gone to the hassle of the conversions I've had to do.
Yes it's a good learning experience, but as I currently run my (under construction) layout from the PC using JMRI it can be a bit of a hassle getting it setup when for once you just want to "play trains" for half an hour.
The additional expense of decoders don't phase me too much, it's the technical side of the control and initial setup of locos that I sometimes roll my eyes at and wonder why I do it.
Still love it though and wouldn't go back to DC, although I do maintain a simple loop stuck to the coffee table that's geared up to DC for running in.
It seams like i have opened a can of worms,do not get me wrong dcc can be fun and my time using it was fun but with 35 locos converted and these were the easy ones and another 15 to go which were the hard or difficult ones to do because some of these are my favorites i made the decision to go back to dc .So as far as i can see in this great hobby of ours there is room for all systems and most of all enjoy what you do.Can i ask the mods to please keep a eye on this topic and if it gets out of hand please lock.Most of all i would like to thank everyone who has made a comment and hope it has helped some to make the right decision for them and as i said in other post i just like to take my trains out of the box and run them.
kevin 141
If it's a can of worms then it is a very interesting can (maybe the worms are of the multi-coloured variety ;))
I have seen no evidence that people are doing anything other than responding in a polite and informative way, and am glad you posted this thread as most folks move from DC to DCC and in all my time on the forum I have never seen the reverse, so thanks for starting the discussion :thumbsup:
Quote from: PostModN66 on January 27, 2014, 01:22:28 PM
Hi Ngauger,
I could counter some of your points about limits of DC, but actually, what I think it comes down to is - what's not to like......all that computer/digital malarkey! I have enough of all that thrust upon me by work and social expectations!
Cheers Jon :)
Hi Jon
I work with computers all day, so believe you me, the last thing I want to do is mess with them at home! That being said, I have found the software (JMRI Decoder & Pane Pro) to be so reliable, that I have never had to troubleshoot it in the 4 years plus I have been using it. If you don't want to turn on your PC (or Mac in my case) (as JamesC said in previous post), then all you need do is to use your physical throttle that you bought when you set your DCC system up. TBH, if it weren't for the software, I'd forget how many loco's I had! As it stands, they're all listed in the roster, complete with a photo of each loco/DMU including manufacturer info etc.
I just wanted to clarify that, as I'd hate somebody new to the hobby reading something that would put them off! I think the whole thrust of my DCC postings, is that any newcomer to the hobby, should at least get a demo of the system, then make their choice based upon their budget/requirements.
I truly believe that DCC is best thing ever to happen to model railways, I wouldn't make all this noise if I really didn't believe that, wish it'd been around back in the 70's!
Maybe the words coals & Newcastle spring to mind here?!
I'll put my soapbox away now guys!!
Andy
Quote from: kevin141 on January 27, 2014, 02:56:48 PM
It seams like i have opened a can of worms,
I don't think so - just an interesting debate. We frequently hear the praises of DCC, so it's good to hear about the advantages of DC for a change. I'm currently a DCer with hankerings after a fully automated DCC layout and reading what you and others have written has made me think a little more about it. I think I still do eventually want to go the DCC route but it's made me a bit happier with DC in the meantime. :thumbsup:
I should point out that my layout is done through a Sprog and JMRI, so I *have* to turn the PC on to play with mine, which makes DCC a little bit more of a PITA :)
Quote from: ngauger on January 27, 2014, 03:12:04 PM
I just wanted to clarify that, as I'd hate somebody new to the hobby reading something that would put them off! I think the whole thrust of my DCC postings, is that any newcomer to the hobby, should at least get a demo of the system, then make their choice based upon their budget/requirements.
Excellent point Andy, and I quite agree. More people attracted to the hobby can only be a good thing for all of us, and in this Smartphone era it might be what younger people expect.
And don't worry about a "soapbox" - good to have enthusiastic people, even if DCC is not for me!
Cheers Jon :)
Just to add what ever system you chose it will be right for you so enjoy.
kevin141
Quote from: James C on January 27, 2014, 03:19:03 PM
I should point out that my layout is done through a Sprog and JMRI, so I *have* to turn the PC on to play with mine, which makes DCC a little bit more of a PITA :)
Ah, I guessed that may have been the case! Fair enough, but once you've held a 'Powercab' in your hand, you'll not want to put it down!
And Kevin141: You're absolutely right, the system you chose will be perfectly right for you!
ATB
Take care
Andy
Quote from: martink on January 27, 2014, 02:03:36 PM
In the past, the same type of large American layout often used a more complex type of DC controller, where you had additional controls to set up the starting and maximum voltages for a loco before driving the train - effectively giving the DC controller the equivalent of a DCC speed table. You'd be surprised at how much of a difference this made. There were even a few digital DC (yes, DC) controllers that actually let you set up speed tables with loco ids/names, then select a loco by name or class before running it. This type could even give you a calibrated speedometer by reading the back EMF!
Alas, these DC types have all but vanished,...
It should be fairly easy to build that type of DC controller with an Arduino Uno. OK, you would need a PC to create the Arduino code but when that was done there would be no need for a PC while you operate trains.
Of course, what I like about model railways is the opportunity to include computer stuff which is an equally important hobby for me.
...R
Quote from: Robin2 on January 26, 2014, 09:00:02 AM
I gave up DCC in favour of battery powered radio control. I was always too lazy to keep my wheels and track clean enough - now I don't have to - they just work.
I haven't tested it myself but someone else said that locos get better adhesion on dirty track, which sounds reasonable.
...R
I had trouble every day with dirty track until I bought a rectangular block of artists graphite. It is slightly wider than the track and I liberally ran it along all tracks and dusted some, using a sharp blade, over each crossing.
I've had two failures since both with class 03/04 shunters when the wheels shorted on the accumulation of graphite dust in the frog area of the points, easily rectified with a soft brush. I got the graphite recommendation from this forum but didn't realise how good it is until I tried it. The extra blackness round the points areas adds to the realism too. I do still clean the locos' wheels occasionally.
Quote from: Robin2 on January 27, 2014, 08:26:20 PM
It should be fairly easy [...] with an Arduino Uno
Why re-invent the wheel though ???
Quote from: James C on January 27, 2014, 03:19:03 PM
I should point out that my layout is done through a Sprog and JMRI, so I *have* to turn the PC on to play with mine, which makes DCC a little bit more of a PITA :)
No need ... get a Raspberry Pi and a small low-cost touch-screen, and use that instead ... Move all the running of JMRI into the RasPi, and have the interface on the small screen (say a 7" one);
or go headerless, and use a smartphone for the throttle ...
or both :D Have the screen for general usage, (inc internet such as reading this Forum :thumbsup:) as well as the "front" of JMRI, and use a phone for playing with the layout :)
Mike
A really interesting thread, so thanks to all the contributors.
Returning to the hobby after a very long break just over a year ago, I encountered the DC/DCC challenge a couple of months in to 'layout planning' and what has been a mad, fun-filled spending spree.
DCC sounded great but expensive so early on I opted for a Gaugemaster D controller. Now, with a collection of 30 locos and 12 of them definitely not DCC compatible, I've decided to stick with DC. Loads more wire but what the heck! :D
Dave G
Quote from: daveg on January 27, 2014, 09:02:11 PM
DCC sounded great but expensive
Dave G
Ok, at the risk of hammering this thread into the ground! I initially bought a Gaugemaster duo DC controller, which cost the best part of £80 from a 'local' model shop. My (pride & joy) NCE Powercab cost £120 from another shop in Bromsgrove. £40 difference, but just look at all the things the Powercab does, versus the Gaugemaster controller, which, well, turns on and off!
I rest my case.
Oh, plus you need a £15 chip in each of your loco's/DMU's. When was this hobby ever 'cheap'?
Andy
I'm not going to use the old debates about cost as we all have our budgets (Budget - that's the fictitious number we make up each year to bust or beat isn't it ? My boss once said)
QuoteIt was essentially developed in its current form in conjunction with the traditional big American-style layout, where a driver (sorry, engineer) takes control of a train then drives it right around the layout, shunting as he goes. It is less effective when you have to keep selecting and de-selecting locos, and even worse if you have to hand them off to the next operator on a signal box to signal box type of layout ("what was that loco number again?" he shouts).
For me this sums it all up.
Ask yourself what your layout is to you and the way you run it. The signalman in us will want full route control and the driver will want to drive. Add to that we are all "Fat Controllers" deciding what locos run and when ?
For most I think DCC/ DC is a combination. I still run full DCC for my locos, but have converted turnouts back to switches (Kato). I find it easier to quickly to look at the position of the turnout switch (usually positioned at the board edge nearby) to establish the route. Far too much button pushing required not too mention memory of an elephant needed to remember which turnout/which number when DCC.
Not sure I would ever want full automation - although I admire Martink's layout and control system.
My layout gives me a sense of control that I am happy and that's what counts.
DC or DCC - no real answer. Just a preference.
Quote from: daveg on January 27, 2014, 09:02:11 PM
A really interesting thread, so thanks to all the contributors.
Returning to the hobby after a very long break just over a year ago, I encountered the DC/DCC challenge a couple of months in to 'layout planning' and what has been a mad, fun-filled spending spree.
DCC sounded great but expensive so early on I opted for a Gaugemaster D controller. Now, with a collection of 30 locos and 12 of them definitely not DCC compatible, I've decided to stick with DC. Loads more wire but what the heck! :D
Dave G
I too have the Gaugemaster D controller - and I got free sound with it - a loud hum!! At no extra cost
Quote from: MikeDunn on January 27, 2014, 08:46:43 PM
Quote from: Robin2 on January 27, 2014, 08:26:20 PM
It should be fairly easy [...] with an Arduino Uno
Why re-invent the wheel though ???
Quote from: James C on January 27, 2014, 03:19:03 PM
I should point out that my layout is done through a Sprog and JMRI, so I *have* to turn the PC on to play with mine, which makes DCC a little bit more of a PITA :)
No need ... get a Raspberry Pi and a small low-cost touch-screen, and use that instead ... Move all the running of JMRI into the RasPi, and have the interface on the small screen (say a 7" one); or go headerless, and use a smartphone for the throttle ... or both :D Have the screen for general usage, (inc internet such as reading this Forum :thumbsup:) as well as the "front" of JMRI, and use a phone for playing with the layout :)
Mike
I do use my 10" tablet & my smartphone for the throttle. I have thought about using RasPi but as my PC is on a lot of the time, (for the reading of this forum etc :) ) it's a case of running the USB cable across the room and getting JMRI up and running that's the "biggest" issue so not a lot different than having to get a RasPi working.
Either way, I am still happy with DCC :)
As I said earlier, one of my hobbies is computer programming. I did have a look at JMRI but decided it was far more than I need so I wrote a simple program to use my PC (and smartphone via the browser) to control my trains through a Hornby Elite. Since then I have given up DCC and have modified my program to control my battery powered radio controlled trains.
I think there were two things that drove me to write a program that worked with the Elite. First, I couldn't/can't stand the idea of having to key in numbers to change locos. And second, I couldn't stand the control knobs on the Elite which rotate continuously and give no feedback of the throttle position. (If I had realized that I wouldn't have bought it in the first place).
At the moment I have three locos so I can select them by clicking one of "tank", "tender" or "dmu" - grey-cells not needed.
And by writing the program as a web application it runs on a smart-phone browser without any extra work.
I can think of no reason why it couldn't be adapted to control a traditional DC model railway in conjunction with an Arduino.
...R
Quote from: James C on January 28, 2014, 08:59:55 AM
it's a case of running the USB cable across the room
Sounds like you have wireless in your house - the RasPi can be that too :)
Agreed - JMRI needs a level of setting up, but IIRC there is a build available for the RasPi that reduces this ?
Mike
I have a vague idea of what a Raspberry Pie is (!) and an Arduino, but it is not very clear. Just for general edification could someone point me in the direction of something that spells it out for the intelligent (?) but ignorant :dunce: layman?
Cheers Jon :)
Quote from: PostModN66 on January 28, 2014, 11:04:58 AM
I have a vague idea of what a Raspberry Pie is (!) and an Arduino, but it is not very clear. Just for general edification could someone point me in the direction of something that spells it out for the intelligent (?) but ignorant :dunce: layman?
Cheers Jon :)
Me the same ???
kevin
Over the years, some obscure control techniques other than DCC and DC cab control have also been used to good effect, especially on big American club layouts. About fifteen years ago I built a layout using one of these techniques known as CCC (Computer Cab Control, or sometimes PCC - Progressive Cab Control). This is basically plain vanilla cab control, but where the computer operates the cab switches (i.e. relays). Each cab control section needs to be track circuited, and the computer needs to at least know the setting of each set of points and the position of each controllers' direction switch. It is even easier if the points and throttles are computer controlled.
Once a loco is connected to a section and a controller, the computer looks at the direction switch and the point settings, and so knows what the next section should be and can switch that across to the same controller. The operator simply drives the train until the track circuits report that the loco has entered the new section. The computer then disconnects the old section and looks ahead for the next one.
The result was a system that duplicated the key advantage of DCC - you just set the points and drive the trains, and without having to bother with those fiddly decoders. The big drawback was that it required a hell of a lot of custom hardware and software. Lesser issues were that you still didn't have DCC's complete freedom of action - you were still limited by the section structure of the layout, and where DCC's nemesis is short circuit faults, CCC's is locos overrunning their assigned sections. On the other hand, the track circuits and the software's understanding of the track plan allowed all sorts of nifty features.
It had basic steam sound effects using speakers under the layout - since the computer knew where each loco was and what it was doing, the sounds could follow the trains around the layout. Other features were cab signals on each controller, smart uncoupling (one uncouple button on each controller - the computer could figure out which magnet to activate), inertia that understands about gradients, etc. It was always amusing watching a novice brake a train to a stop on a rising gradient and release the brakes - then watch panic set in when the train started to roll backwards down the hill!
If I didn't care to use the point switches, the points could be set from the controller handset. Given the loco's current position and direction switch setting, there were always a limited number of possible routes. Just count them off from the left and flick the brake switch that number of times!
There were other similarities with DCC, such as the need to find a way to attach a controller to a train. I did that using the signal switches - if the computer saw that a train had a green signal but no driver, it flashed a "train available" led on each idle controller, so that an operator could push a button on the handset to accept the train. If nobody responded within a fixed time, the computer started the train itself and ran it according to the signals.
That was my first really big electronics project, and there were some serious reliability and noise problems which would have required a full rebuild to resolve. Also, it pretty much needed to be rebuilt from scratch for any new layout design, so I eventually shelved the system. It is still there in the back of my mind (with the electronics gathering dust in the spare room) for possible future use.
Quote from: kevin141 on January 28, 2014, 11:09:40 AM
Quote from: PostModN66 on January 28, 2014, 11:04:58 AM
I have a vague idea of what a Raspberry Pie is (!) and an Arduino, but it is not very clear.
Me the same ???
kevin
Hi guys,
I can't be of too much help re Arduino as I'm not very familiar with that technology (yet - that may change. I'm currently exploring PICs instead of the Arduino), I expect someone with more knowledge will come along & do a far better job than I could !
Re the RasPi - basically, it's a credit-card computer. Remember the ZX Spectrum & BBC Micro ? The RasPi Foundation are trying to do something similar with schools, but it's also very useful to the hobbyist. Lots of information here http://www.raspberrypi.org/ (http://www.raspberrypi.org/)
What you have is a small Linux-based computer, roughly the size of a pack of playing cards. Memory is provided by an SD card, where Linux and any apps reside. You have a couple of USB connections, an RJ45 port and an HDMI port; it's powered by a wall-wart (although I have heard of battery-powered ones).
As far as JMRI is concerned, you can get a suitable OS and JMRI image that you place on the SD card; make some minor alterations (documented, ones to suit your environment) and plug in a wireless adapter. Power it on and wait a few minutes, then you can connect via a browser on your PC, tablet or smartphone. You connect the RasPi to a suitable controller (an
ideal one is the Sprog), and you're off controlling your DCC system. No need for keyboard, mouse, or monitor when in headless mode.
RasPi kits from Maplins start at around £70, and there is a better one for around £100, or you can just pick up the parts you want as & when; the basic unit is around £30 (RS, Farnell, Amazon, etc). You can use it as a full computer (word processing, spreadsheets, browsing, games, etc) or as a starting point for an electronics development environment. Very versatile.
Hope that helps,
Mike
:hellosign:A interesting batch of replies to a difficult topic. DCC seemed to be considered "The Holly Grail " when it first surfaced but I stayed with DC on my 5m X 4m
Layout for two reasons. One DC does what I want, we run 25 Car Frieghts and 12/14 Car Passenger Trains without too much mayhem. I have a simple Track Plan,the Double Track Mainline with long Passing Sidings and a one level Loop up to the second level into a 5 Track Hidden Staging Yard gives us plenty to do. The Second reason is cost after quite a few years in the Hobby I have a heap of Locos both Steam & Diesel so to put Decoders in them plus buy a system would impact on my costs a lot and divert funds that goes towards the ultimate idea of finishing the Layout. We now have a Keddie Wye Bridge at one end of the Layout which was a big step in getting towards the end of building process.
If anyone would like photos of my Layout give me a yodel either here or marg_den@bigpond.net.au. I'm not too confidant on doing a video but do have a Mate here that may help out. Regards, Denis. :thumbsup:
Photos are *always* very welcome, so yes please Denis!
Dave G
E'gad, by heck etc
I can see why I remain DC now :dunce:
DCC may have its advantages (continuous track power, sound etc) but with all the extra hardware and software your quoting how complicated can you actually make it? Is it getting to the point where you spend more time programming? or updating your drivers? If thats what you want to do thats good but dont confuse programming & development with running trains.
Back to the original topic??
All it takes to run trains is the simplicity of a DC supply and a means of regulation - with a significant stable of locos of all makes and ages I get 100% compatibility with pure DC and no conversion cost. I'm staying DC thanks but will enjoy the DCC decoder socket as its an excellent way of plugging into a loco when servicing. KISS - Keep it simple stupid.
Respect to all - whatever they use to control their locos.
Regards
Russ
Lol!, I'm wondering if the original electric (DC) loco's caused some rumblings amongst the clockwork fraternity? "Electricity!! Over my dead body sir!"
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
I think the point is that extra hardware/software isn't necessary in most cases to get things running with DCC, but (just like DC) by adding in more hardware/software you can enable more functionality.
The idea that DCC *has* to be more complicated than DC is a bit of a myth, but IMO it is easier to do *some* more complex things with DCC than DC (and I'm sure some things are easier to do with DC than DCC).
Horses for courses - look at what you are interested in and *your* requirements.
Cheers, Mike
Quote from: MikeDunn on January 28, 2014, 11:32:04 AM
As far as JMRI is concerned, you can get a suitable OS and JMRI image that you place on the SD card; make some minor alterations (documented, ones to suit your environment) and plug in a wireless adapter. Power it on and wait a few minutes, then you can connect via a browser on your PC, tablet or smartphone. You connect the RasPi to a suitable controller (an ideal one is the Sprog), and you're off controlling your DCC system. No need for keyboard, mouse, or monitor when in headless mode.
Mike - it certainly helps! :thankyousign:
Just a couple of follow ups if you have the patience!
What's a "wireless adapter", and why do you plug it in?
What does "connect via a browser" mean? And what are you connecting?
I have Googled a "Sprog" and it looks like it is a DCC box without the hand held bits - is this right?
Cheers Jon :dunce: :dunce:
Quote from: PostModN66 on January 28, 2014, 11:04:58 AM
I have a vague idea of what a Raspberry Pie is (!) and an Arduino, but it is not very clear. Just for general edification could someone point me in the direction of something that spells it out for the intelligent (?) but ignorant :dunce: layman?
Cheers Jon :)
While the Raspberry Pi is a full Linux computer in a very small package the Arduinos (there are various types) are microntrollers or which have limited program and RAM memory and are intended for controlling physical devices - temperature sensors, motors, lights, whatever. The Arduinos use Atmel chips rather than PICs which are a rival product made by a company called Microchip - I suspect there is little to choose between the two, but they are not interchangeable.
The essence of the Ardunio system is making microcontrollers easy to use and all the software and the hardware designs are Open Source. The Arduino Uno is the recommended starter product because it is the most "standard". To program it you need to download the Arduino IDE (programming system) onto your PC and connect the Uno to the PC with a USB cable. The Arduino IDE includes loads of simple example programs and the Arduino Forum http://forum.arduino.cc/ (http://forum.arduino.cc/) is a great source of almost instant advice for anything you don't understand. Beginners are especially welcome.
You can download and install the Arduino IDE without buying any Arduino hardware if you just want to study how the programs are written.
As an indication of how simple the Arduino is to program you can make a servo arm move to an angle of 63degrees with myservo.Write(63).
...R
Quote from: Robin2 on January 28, 2014, 05:37:07 PM
Quote from: PostModN66 on January 28, 2014, 11:04:58 AM
I have a vague idea of what a Raspberry Pie is (!) and an Arduino, but it is not very clear. Just for general edification could someone point me in the direction of something that spells it out for the intelligent (?) but ignorant :dunce: layman?
Cheers Jon :)
While the Raspberry Pi is a full Linux computer in a very small package the Arduinos (there are various types) are microntrollers or which have limited program and RAM memory and are intended for controlling physical devices - temperature sensors, motors, lights, whatever. The Arduinos use Atmel chips rather than PICs which are a rival product made by a company called Microchip - I suspect there is little to choose between the two, but they are not interchangeable.
The essence of the Ardunio system is making microcontrollers easy to use and all the software and the hardware designs are Open Source. The Arduino Uno is the recommended starter product because it is the most "standard". To program it you need to download the Arduino IDE (programming system) onto your PC and connect the Uno to the PC with a USB cable. The Arduino IDE includes loads of simple example programs and the Arduino Forum http://forum.arduino.cc/ (http://forum.arduino.cc/) is a great source of almost instant advice for anything you don't understand. Beginners are especially welcome.
You can download and install the Arduino IDE without buying any Arduino hardware if you just want to study how the programs are written.
As an indication of how simple the Arduino is to program you can make a servo arm move to an angle of 63degrees with myservo.Write(63).
...R
Thanks Robin,
This sounds interesting to me - and simpler than the Raspberry Pi ! Maybe I could use one for driving animated scenes on my layout.
In my youth I was a Fortran programmer - maybe that would stand me in good stead for programming the Arduino
Cheers Jon :)
Quote from: PostModN66 on January 28, 2014, 05:29:20 PM
What's a "wireless adapter", and why do you plug it in?
What does "connect via a browser" mean? And what are you connecting?
I have Googled a "Sprog" and it looks like it is a DCC box without the hand held bits - is this right?
A wireless adapter is a simple USB dongle that gives the device it is plugged into wireless capabilities; such as connecting to an ADSL router with wireless. Basically it allows the RasPi to remotely link to your ADSL unit without having to have the RJ45 Ethernet cable running to it. Think of it as like your internet phone or tablet, the way that connects to the router; with those, the adapter is built-in.
Connect via browser - basically, you point your browser of choice to the web page that the RasPi/JMRI unit is running; instead of going out to the internet for the page, it connects locally to your unit.
Sprog - it's a matchbox sized DCC controller that is "commanded" via the JMRI application. As you say, there is no handheld, so you use your PC (or in this case, RasPi) or an internet phone (Apple or Android), or a tablet to run the loco controls. It's a very good way of doing DCC on a budget - you just buy the Sprog, you get JMRI with it (or can d/load from the web) free, and you use your other kit (PC, Mac, phone, tablet, whichever). Plenty of info on it on this Forum, or on the Sprog website. It's a spin-off from MERG, but is already built.
Quote from: PostModN66 on January 28, 2014, 05:43:45 PM
This sounds interesting to me - and simpler than the Raspberry Pi ! Maybe I could use one for driving animated scenes on my layout.
Er - the Arduino (like the PIC that I am more familiar with) is a development tool;
not a computer you can use straight off. You would need to develop the hardware connectivity from the Arduino to the relevant scene(s) as well as developing the software you run them once connected ... I wouldn't say it's simpler than the RasPi except in a technical sense - you would have to spend a lot of time understanding how to do the connectivity (I'm having just this with the PICs ::))
Quote
In my youth I was a Fortran programmer - maybe that would stand me in good stead for programming the Arduino
The RasPi uses Python as one of its languages; there are others. You can 'break out' from the RasPi and develop hardware & software to do things; I
think the Arduino can also interface with it, to become a platform the RasPi uses ? To program a PIC (and I believe the Arduino) you write in C; it's then compiled and stored onto the unit. While you can always re-blow them, you can't amend the programming on the fly once you've moved off the development platform.
Mike
I use Linux all the time on my netbook (on which I am writing this) and be assured you need a great deal more expertise to get a Raspberry Pi working than an Arduino Uno. There is no operating system on an Arduino, and it can only hold one program at a time. It's the simplest form of computing, but it is still very capable.
Connecting things to an Arduino is very straightforward. It comes with sockets for making connections to all the input/output pins. And if you want to connect to (say) a motor which needs more power than an Arduino can provide there are various additional boards (called shields) that plug into the Arduino and have connections for the motor (or whatever). If you know a little about electronics you can probably replace the shields with something much cheaper.
The Arduinos are programmed in a simplified form of C++ - simplified in the sense that you don't need to bother with all the complex "housekeeping" that is usual with C/C++ programs.
...R
Quote from: Robin2 on January 28, 2014, 08:35:53 PM
I use Linux all the time on my netbook (on which I am writing this) and be assured you need a great deal more expertise to get a Raspberry Pi working than an Arduino Uno.
The Arduinos are programmed in a simplified form of C++ - simplified in the sense that you don't need to bother with all the complex "housekeeping" that is usual with C/C++ programs.
Sorry Robin, but that just isn't true, particularly given that you can follow the JMR-Pi instructions to install JMRI easily with 4 lines of commands. How much code would you need to write to get even a fraction of the functionality of JMRI onto an Arduino?
Thanks guys for these helpful responses. I hope it is not annoying anyone by hi-jacking the thread!
It is definitely arousing my interest in these two devices, (though not necessarily related to DCC). I think I am getting a fairly good idea of what the Arduino is; I can conceive of writing something in a fairly low level language (I'm imagining Fortran though I know things have moved on a bit!) and exporting it onto a simple computing device. I am a bit more hazy about the Raspberry Pi; it seems much more difficult to understand needing to go wireless via your router and involving two different sets of software, web pages etc, multiple computing devices (the RasPi and a tablet) but nevertheless I'm better informed than I was before!
Cheers Jon :)
Quote from: PostModN66 on January 28, 2014, 10:36:53 PM
It is definitely arousing my interest in these two devices, (though not necessarily related to DCC). I think I am getting a fairly good idea of what the Arduino is; I can conceive of writing something in a fairly low level language (I'm imagining Fortran though I know things have moved on a bit!) and exporting it onto a simple computing device. I am a bit more hazy about the Raspberry Pi; it seems much more difficult to understand needing to go wireless via your router and involving two different sets of software, web pages etc, multiple computing devices (the RasPi and a tablet) but nevertheless I'm better informed than I was before!
Hi Jon
A Raspberry Pi is just a small computer which runs Linux as the operating system. JMRI is a programme (actually a whole suite of programmes to run/configure/control a whole host of things - all entirely optional) like any other which creates the DCC instructions. You don't need to use a tablet, wifi or browser to run JMRI on an R Pi (or any other computer), but you may find it more convenient. Apart from a computer of some kind + the free JMRI software the only extra item needed is some interface from the computer to the track - many of us use a Sprog to do this as it is cheap and very good! You then have a fully functioning DCC controller with an awful lot of functionality (if you want to use it).
Cheers, Mike
Quote from: red_death on January 28, 2014, 11:56:31 PM
[Hi Jon
A Raspberry Pi is just a small computer which runs Linux as the operating system.
Cheers, Mike
Sorry in advance - way off topic - but could I use a Raspberry Pi to run PowerPoint and connect to a projector to deliver presentations? That would be very handy for me in my working life.
Cheers Jon :)
Quote from: PostModN66 on January 29, 2014, 08:15:32 AM
Sorry in advance - way off topic - but could I use a Raspberry Pi to run PowerPoint and connect to a projector to deliver presentations? That would be very handy for me in my working life.
Not PowerPoint, no - MS Office is not available in Linux.
After saying that, LibreOffice is available, and opens most (all ?) of the MS Office file formats, including PowerPoint - so yes you
can run a presentation from the RasPi :D
See http://store.raspberrypi.com/projects/libreoffice (http://store.raspberrypi.com/projects/libreoffice) for details - it's free :beers:
As i posted the original topic it may have strayed a little bit but what is showing what else you can do with your model railway while being at the cutting edge of the electronics quite a few posts have pointed me in a direction i had no knowledge about so keep the info coming as i am sure there are other modelers on here that have had the same thoughts and as i have said before the control you use is the one that suits your requirements until something better comes along
kevin141 :Class37:
I wrote a reply about Pi vs Arduino this morning but it seems to have vanished into the ether.
@RedDeath, you are comparing apples and oranges when you mention JMRI in the context of an Arduino. JMRI or anything like that can't run on an Arduino but can run on a Pi. However I can't figure why anyone would use a Pi for that when an old PC or laptop would be so much more convenient.
Installing JMRI on a Pi may be relatively simple - assuming you have already figured out how to load Linux onto it first. But there is so much functionality within JMRI that is is probably more complex than an Arduino even after it is installed successfuly.
I suspect if you just want to write your own software to control points and signals or to detect the position of trains that would be far easier on an Arduino.
My advice to anyone debating the choice between a Pi and an Arduino would be...
If you want to run complex software like JMRI start using it on an old PC or laptop and by a Pi later if it becomes necessary.
If you want to write your own software to control points etc. whether standalone or having an operating connection to a PC then use an Arduino Uno or Mega.
.... And I use Open Office (pretty much identical to Libre Office) all the time - it's just as good as as Microsoft Office.
...R
Errr Robin, I was replying to your strange assertion that "you need a great deal more expertise to get a Raspberry Pi working than an Arduino Uno" :confused1:
As to why use a cheap computer like an R Pi for JMRI - because you can have fully functioning DCC control system for a small cost and stick it to the layout and have a self-contained system without needing an old PC or laptop. Installing Linux on the R Pi is hardly complex and certainly much less difficult than writing C++ !
To bring this back to DC/DCC for a second..
DCC is awesome, but I'm happily back with DC..
Partially funds.. As has been said before.. I have a lot of old locos
Not because of computer jiggerypokery ( I teach game programming, and yes I own a Pi). .. This has been said before, and I used a zephyr and DT400 in Canada.
It's all because... I love all the switches and dials and just sheer simple beauty of toggle switch, make juice flow (or not) feel of it all.... I dream about one day (soon I hope!) making a lovely switchy toggly control panel to go with my lovely (straight out of the sixties soviet missile launch system looking) Morley vortrack!
There is no doubt that technically DCC is better operationally, but for me it's just not as cool, there's a lovely granularity about knowing precisely where the power is flowing on my layout as opposed to packets of power data block wishing around everywhere. It's probably the same kind of feeling that people who prefer vintage cars over modern ones get...
Anyhow, that's my 2 cents, anyone else get a real buzz out of DC?
Graham
Quote from: Robin2 on January 29, 2014, 06:00:16 PM
However I can't figure why anyone would use a Pi for that when an old PC or laptop would be so much more convenient.[/i]
And how many people happen to have an old laptop or PC lying about ? Not that many, I would wager ... Techies certainly, but not your average person.
Quote
Installing JMRI on a Pi may be relatively simple - assuming you have already figured out how to load Linux onto it first.
Oh, it's
horrendously difficult ... as many of the sellers will also include a pre-loaded SD card ;) And the instructions for doing it yourself isn't that much harder - assuming you know how to unZip a file.
Quote
But there is so much functionality within JMRI that is is probably more complex than an Arduino even after it is installed successfuly.
But
less functionality than that old laptop or PC you were on about ;) Sorry - you can't have it both ways :D
Let's be honest - you can quickly and easily d/load a Linux variant with JMRI already deployed within it ... all you need to is extract the file and put onto the SD card, then boot it up in the RasPi. You get a fully-working DCC application with nothing more to do than use it ...
On the Arduino (or PIC), you need to develop
both the hardware and software
yourself ... Now, granted,
some people would rather do that (I'm working on a remote control for a DC system, as it happens, using a PIC), but
most will go for the ready-made solution that the RasPi offers.
Neither are wrong ... it just depends on what floats your boat ...
Mike
Quote from: MikeDunn link=topic=19075.msg195076#msg195076
b]Neither are wrong [/b] ... it just depends on what floats your boat ...
Which is what I was saying - it depends what you want to do with it.
But I object strongly to any suggestion that an Arduino is difficult.
...R
Yes, I get a real buzz out of DC. Yes, I certainly do, but I like the old ways of doing things, and old things in general, my everyday car dates from 1958, no road tax, no seatbelts and no dashboard padding, my motorcycle is a 1975 Honda, with points and carbs, none of that fangled (and unreliable on a bike) electronic ignition or fuel injection, and while I do own a digital camera, I have 22 film cameras varying from 1897 to 1960, all working, and a freezer full of film, and do my own processing. So why would I want to complicate my model railway? :no: :no:
Quote from: Robin2 on January 29, 2014, 08:35:33 PM
But I object strongly to any suggestion that an Arduino is difficult.
I don't recall saying it was difficult ... or anyone else for that matter ???
But you cannot get away from the fact that a RasPi is a
complete computer, whereas the Arduino (and PIC) is a microcontroller - a
component of a computer. You cannot just plug in a keyboard, mouse or screen into one & have it work, or load a full program such as a web browser into these devices. You, the developer, need to do a
lot more to a microcontroller to get it to do anything, and most people lack the relevant electronic skills & knowledge; most readers of this forum can, conversely, get to grips with a RasPi in minutes based on previous PC/Mac usage ...
Mike
I don't know how some DC stalwarts seem to have somehow got it into their head that a DCC a loco won't budge a micron without hours of complicated programming... it takes only a minute to give it a number, just a couple of seconds to select it to drive and you're ready to go! Performance tuning is optional.
:) - {Edit} Smiley face in case I seemed a bit more argumentative than I intended! It is your choice after all, just a bit of an observation.
Can we calm it down a little guys and girls, we all have opinions so can't agree on everything but this is no place to keep beating each other over the head.
Let's get this thread back on topic and please cool down, we don't want to have to lock another topic.
Quote from: whiteswan on January 30, 2014, 05:51:39 PM
Can we calm it down a little guys and girls, we all have opinions so can't agree on everything but this is no place to keep beating each other over the head.
Let's get this thread back on topic and please cool down, we don't want to have to lock another topic.
Thanks whiteswan it would be a shame to lock it can i ask those that have used other systems that they have found to work to give us more detail at what they have done and in simple terms to help others to explore and improve there knowledge as i can reload a computer but not write programs and as i have said before the best controller is the one you are using now.
kevin141
I am just starting to 'think' of setting up my DC stuff again. Also thought about DCC but doesn't a lot to be changed?
I read that the coaches needed to be fitted with LED's and some other electronic stuff to work out if the coach is being pushed or pulled?
Sorry if this is a bit of a dumb question. I was interested in having permanent lighting in my coaches as they're a bit dim as I don't tend to run my trains very fast.
Quote from: MikeDunn on January 29, 2014, 09:13:02 PM
I don't recall saying it was difficult ... or anyone else for that matter ???
But you cannot get away from the fact that a RasPi is a complete computer, whereas the Arduino (and PIC) is a microcontroller - a component of a computer. You cannot just plug in a keyboard, mouse or screen into one & have it work, or load a full program such as a web browser into these devices. You, the developer, need to do a lot more to a microcontroller to get it to do anything, and most people lack the relevant electronic skills & knowledge; most readers of this forum can, conversely, get to grips with a RasPi in minutes based on previous PC/Mac usage ...
Mike
I'm sorry to have to come back to this again, especially when Mike and I agree about most of this stuff.
You are quite right to say that a Pi is a complete computer but it is not correct to say that an Arduino is part of a computer. It does need to be connected to another computer to be programmed, but once programmed it can operate on its own. And I don't accept that you need to do a
lot more to it (remember it is small), you just need to do different stuff to it.
If a person doesn't want to do programming then, obviously, an Arduino is not the right product.
Both the Pi and the Arduino have their roles in railway modelling.
...R
I'm sorry you had to come back to it too.
I know you guys know what you are talking about and also have your differences, but in my uninformed opinion your bickering is more likely to deter people considering DCC than encourage them, so I would please ask you to desist.
As Whiteswan has mentioned, this is an interesting topic and we would not like to see it locked so I suggest you just say that anyone with questions about the ins and outs of Arduino's etc can PM you for technical advice. Thank you.
Quote from: Raymond on January 30, 2014, 08:13:24 PM
I am just starting to 'think' of setting up my DC stuff again. Also thought about DCC but doesn't a lot to be changed?
I read that the coaches needed to be fitted with LED's and some other electronic stuff to work out if the coach is being pushed or pulled?
Sorry if this is a bit of a dumb question. I was interested in having permanent lighting in my coaches as they're a bit dim as I don't tend to run my trains very fast.
Raymond, glad to hear you're considering DCC! Although, It is always going to be more appealing to new starters, as each loco will need it's own decoder. Most modern loco's are DCC ready, and just need the chip putting in. If you have 20 or so old DC loco's, it may not be practical, both financially or technically!(although a few outfits claim a 90% conversion success rate)
Edit: BTW, most DCC loco's can be used on a DC layout, without modification, so might be worth making sure your future loco purchases are DCC, just in case you start another layout in the future.
As for other changes, I can't think why your existing wiring shouldn't work with DCC, technically it just requires connections to each section of track, if you have isolated the blocks. In other words, the track is live all the time throughout your layout.
Lighting is another thing entirely, although Dapol of course advertise all their new coaching stock to be 'light bar' ready, so the option is there if you want it.
Hope i've explained it well enough, bear in mind I'm not an expert!
P.s. Forgot to mention, trains are generally, and in most basic form controlled by a hand held throttle, and these as you may have seen vary immensely, although their primary function is the same. As has been mentioned in this thread, a user can easily hook it all up to the computer, and i do mean easily as plugging in a USB memory stick!
IMHO, this is where it starts to get interesting!!
Trust me. :claphappy:
Quote from: Robin2 on January 30, 2014, 09:05:18 PM
You are quite right to say that a Pi is a complete computer but it is not correct to say that an Arduino is part of a computer.
OK, looks like a poor choice of words on my part; I think that between our comments, readers will have a better idea of what these devices are :)
Quote
Both the Pi and the Arduino have their roles in railway modelling.
Agreed :D
NPN - I think the discussion between Robin & myself (here, anyway !) is over :D It was, in the final stages, more semantics than anything else ::) I certainly didn't consider it as an argument :no:
Quote from: ngauger on January 30, 2014, 09:36:14 PM
Quote from: Raymond on January 30, 2014, 08:13:24 PM
I am just starting to 'think' of setting up my DC stuff again. Also thought about DCC but doesn't a lot to be changed?
I read that the coaches needed to be fitted with LED's and some other electronic stuff to work out if the coach is being pushed or pulled?
Sorry if this is a bit of a dumb question. I was interested in having permanent lighting in my coaches as they're a bit dim as I don't tend to run my trains very fast.
Raymond, glad to hear you're considering DCC! Although, It is always going to be more appealing to new starters, as each loco will need it's own decoder. Most modern loco's are DCC ready, and just need the chip putting in. If you have 20 or so old DC loco's, it may not be practical, both financially or technically!(although a few outfits claim a 90% conversion success rate)
Edit: BTW, most DCC loco's can be used on a DC layout, without modification, so might be worth making sure your future loco purchases are DCC, just in case you start another layout in the future.
Cheers Mr. ngauger,
I only have 5 loco's and probably 3 will be running on the non existing layout but I'm not sure if they can be converted.
I really need to set up a layout first and see what's needed for the changeover. It would be nice to have multiple loco's on one track.
With my last track (before DCC) I cheated and had constant power to the track for the coaches and the locos picked up current one one side of the track and from overhead catenary.
I don't think I'll bother with the catenary this time though.
This thread has been very helpful to me and got me thinking about maybe possibly a small DCC experiment :o As well as maybe getting into Arduino and/or Paspberry Pi (probably not for DCC though) - so big thanks to contributors!
But........if I convert a few of my locos to DCC, will they then also run perfectly well on my existing DC layout without buzzing, deterioration in running characteristics or any other unwanted side effects?
Also, if I have a hybrid DC/DCC layout with a changeover spur, switchable between DC and DCC, what would happens when I switch the track over to DCC? Would the locos respond immediately, or would there be a "boot up" delay or any other issues?
I'm hoping for a positive response to each of these, as it would be an easy way of playing with DCC.
Thanks in advance,
Jon :)
Quote from: PostModN66 on January 31, 2014, 09:44:17 AM
But........if I convert a few of my locos to DCC, will they then also run perfectly well on my existing DC layout without buzzing, deterioration in running characteristics or any other unwanted side effects?
Reply: That's the theory! It'd be a brave man who said yes to all the above! As I say I am not a DCC expert, just a DCC user with 'user knowledge'. All I know is it is generally accepted that a new loco (DCC ready) will work on a DC layout, if the Decoder (of which there are many different 'makes') is set to DC compatibility mode. I only use one type of chip so far, the Bachmann 36-558A, which works fine for my needs, and is by default set to DC mode.
However, I have not tested this in practise! Secondly, it would be impossible to say categorically that all your loco's would work after being converted, or be fine with DC. There shouldn't be a problem, but as I say, a braver man than me would make such a promise!
Edit: PLease also be aware that high frequency track cleaners on DC layouts can damage the DCC chips!!
Also, if I have a hybrid DC/DCC layout with a changeover spur, switchable between DC and DCC, what would happens when I switch the track over to DCC? Would the locos respond immediately, or would there be a "boot up" delay or any other issues?
Reply: Unknown territory! In theory, it should work, of course DC & DCC do not mix any shape or form in terms of track polarity/voltage/waveform, so you would need to be very careful, less you fry both systems! I would give that a miss myself, dabble with DCC by all means, but isolate the two, or build a separate layout perhaps, or start by converting one loco, see how that worked, both DCC & DC mode, then proceed accordingly, ie do them all and convert your layout to DCC (or not as the case may be)!
There will be others on this forum who can answer your q's more definitively, but as I say, I started my layout early with DCC, so can't give evidence based replies. :sorrysign: Cheers, Andy.
P.S It would be good if somebody started a DC to DCC conversion thread, warts and all so to speak! I would be fascinated to hear how it went. It is of course a question of how an old loco may take to the conversion process, it may depend on the skill of the technician/hobbyist doing the work, or even the age or design of the motor itself?
Andy
Quote from: PostModN66 on January 31, 2014, 09:44:17 AM
But........if I convert a few of my locos to DCC, will they then also run perfectly well on my existing DC layout without buzzing, deterioration in running characteristics or any other unwanted side effects?
Also, if I have a hybrid DC/DCC layout with a changeover spur, switchable between DC and DCC, what would happens when I switch the track over to DCC? Would the locos respond immediately, or would there be a "boot up" delay or any other issues?
Hi Jon
Answer to the first qn - provided the chip allows DC operation then it will work (all the better chips do).
On the second qn: I assume you mean drive train into changeover location (fully isolated) turn off DC and turn on DCC? You couldn't do it on the fly as you would risk short circuits as the train bridged the two sections, so in that sense there would be some delay while you stopped and switched.
Cheers, Mike
Quote from: red_death on January 31, 2014, 10:46:37 AM
On the second qn: I assume you mean drive train into changeover location (fully isolated) turn off DC and turn on DCC? You couldn't do it on the fly as you would risk short circuits as the train bridged the two sections, so in that sense there would be some delay while you stopped and switched.
Thanks both Mike and Andy, :thankyousign:
Yes, my idea is for a loco shed, so loco drives into loco spur under DC and stops. Switch to DCC then "reverse" into the shed, so a short delay of a few seconds at least would be prototypical.
But thanks for the warning about track cleaners Andy - I use one on Lofthole and though in theory it would be OK (DCC locos wouldn't stray onto track cleaner territory) it would be a risk if operators got confused!
Cheers Jon :)
Quote from: PostModN66 on January 31, 2014, 10:57:44 AM
Quote from: red_death on January 31, 2014, 10:46:37 AM
On the second qn: I assume you mean drive train into changeover location (fully isolated) turn off DC and turn on DCC? You couldn't do it on the fly as you would risk short circuits as the train bridged the two sections, so in that sense there would be some delay while you stopped and switched.
Thanks both Mike and Andy, :thankyousign:
Yes, my idea is for a loco shed, so loco drives into loco spur under DC and stops. Switch to DCC then "reverse" into the shed, so a short delay of a few seconds at least would be prototypical.
But thanks for the warning about track cleaners Andy - I use one on Lofthole and though in theory it would be OK (DCC locos wouldn't stray onto track cleaner territory) it would be a risk if operators got confused!
Cheers Jon :)
Cool Jon! I had a look at your layout, superb. You sound & look like a guy who knows what he's doing, so I'm sure you could dabble with DCC with impunity! BTW, don't know if you knew, but with DCC you can 'play' with the 'momentum' of a loco or 'unit' to influence it's starting/breaking times. This creates more realistic running, as that step between 0-1 is less visible. However, I think that also the new motors & electronics of todays n gauge loco's/dmu's plays a part as well.
Quote from: ngauger on January 31, 2014, 11:24:16 AM
Cool Jon! I had a look at your layout, superb. You sound & look like a guy who knows what he's doing, so I'm sure you could dabble with DCC with impunity!
You are very kind Andy! :thankyousign:
Not sure about "impunity" though! Cautious small steps.................
I actually have a DC controller (Pictroller) with momentum......haven't quite got used to it yet!
Cheers Jon :)
Quote from: PostModN66 on January 31, 2014, 12:00:56 PM
Quote from: ngauger on January 31, 2014, 11:24:16 AM
Cool Jon! I had a look at your layout, superb. You sound & look like a guy who knows what he's doing, so I'm sure you could dabble with DCC with impunity!
You are very kind Andy! :thankyousign:
Not sure about "impunity" though! Cautious small steps.................
I actually have a DC controller (Pictroller) with momentum......haven't quite got used to it yet!
Cheers Jon :)
That's interesting Jon, I wonder if it works on the old 'half wave' principle that some DC controllers used to have, I seem to remember having a old H&M 'Clipper' that had half wave, I think to facilitate/aid slow running?
Andy
Hi Andy,
I don't know but I suspect rather more sophisticated than that. There is an adjustment for momentum, you can set it so that it takes a long, long time to get going..........and to stop, though there is an emergency brake.
Cheers Jon :)
PS: I've still got my Clipper - and the Multipac that plugs into it!
My Gaugemaster twin has the brake simulation feature but I don't use it for braking due to the total 'pot luck' effect as to where it stops. It's a good feature for starting off from the station though :-\
Interesting! I suppose at the end of the day, the DCC 'bit' (no pun intended) is incidental to the way the motor is powered/controlled? In the end, DC or DCC, it's still a 12/16v electric motor at the end of it all. I guess more sophisticated ways of control have existed for many years (as opposed to a simple rheostat that attenuates the voltage) so it's not unique to DCC. When they put DCC together as an embryonic 'system', they must have looked at the best ways to feed current/voltage to a DC motor, and built it into the chips.
I'll wander into Wikipedia and find out for myself!!
Take care
Andy
DC and DCC on the same layout ? ......... No problem
I own a ZTC 511 a simple press of 3 buttons on the controller and my layout changes from DCC to DC.
I know that it is a controller that is poo-poo'd by a lot a people as being over expensive etc, but I've never regretted buying mine.
What most don't understand is that although it only can operate one "speed setting" under DC (same as the rest) it also has a roster system for profiling up to 50 DC locos. The controller has brake lever that can be used under DC or DCC as well as the oblitary emergency STOP ALL button.
The profiles allow you to set inertia start voltage etc see here for more detail. Page 49 onwards.... http://www.ztccontrols.co.uk/index_htm_files/1272882803-ZTC%20511%20Manual.pdf (http://www.ztccontrols.co.uk/index_htm_files/1272882803-ZTC%20511%20Manual.pdf).
One of the reasons I bought this unit. I also run a full DCC MERG system on the layout
Happy to answer any queries by PM or email about it. :thumbsup:
You can always take the Blackadder approach and "pooh pooh their pooh poohs"
Spent a couple of hours this afternoon with two of my grandchildren on the DCC layout. One was the engine driver and the other was signalman. They found the Dynamis quite easy to use and achieved things I don't think they could have done on a DC layout. They even managed to get two trains on the same loop - quite a challenge but no problem. For me that's one of the main reasons for my building my layout. Not only the satisfaction of model making but to spread a little happiness.
As someone who went from DCC to analogue about six or seven years ago, and has since converted one (of two) layouts to DCC I'll wade in with a few comments about conversion, partly technical and partly cost.
Getting locos chipped isn't cheap- I now tend to use either Lenz or Zimo chips, which for a six-pin chip are about £30 a time.
As to what I have with chips in- the ones with 6-pin sockets aren't usually a problem.
Hard wired- I have a pair of Farish J94 chassis (one kitbuilt body) , which have no issues- the cab openings are covered inside with black paper but there is room inside for the chip. My other hard-wired Farish are tender locos (including kits) - no issues, though I have a K3 with a solder-assembled tender that might prove a major problem.
Union Mills "can't be done" say a number of folk. I have four, all with small Midland tenders converted to NER outline. The tender needs a bit of milling out inside to take the chip, but one has a tiny CT chip inside, the other three Lenz Silver Minis. The three Lenz chipped locos run fine but I still have issues getting the best out of CT chips.
Overall, the cost of the two Powercabs and other bits I needed were covered by the two transformers, three hand-helds, three panel boxes, vast numbers of switches, four reels of wire and the extra connectors etc that I didn't buy. The cost of chipping locos has been met by selling much of my surplus stock of another time period. I also gained about six to eight weeks on the extra wiring and testing I didn't need to do.
Would I change again? Probably not if I hadn't the stock to sell to fund it. Would I change back? No. Will I DCC my German layout? No as it is "complete" and fully stocked. If starting another layout of (say) US outline or a period I have no locos for at all would it be DCC? Yes.
Hope this helps.
Les
Quote from: Les1952 on February 02, 2014, 10:41:56 AM
As someone who went from DCC to analogue about six or seven years ago, and has since converted one (of two) layouts to DCC I'll wade in with a few comments about conversion, partly technical and partly cost.
Getting locos chipped isn't cheap- I now tend to use either Lenz or Zimo chips, which for a six-pin chip are about £30 a time.
As to what I have with chips in- the ones with 6-pin sockets aren't usually a problem.
Hard wired- I have a pair of Farish J94 chassis (one kitbuilt body) , which have no issues- the cab openings are covered inside with black paper but there is room inside for the chip. My other hard-wired Farish are tender locos (including kits) - no issues, though I have a K3 with a solder-assembled tender that might prove a major problem.
Union Mills "can't be done" say a number of folk. I have four, all with small Midland tenders converted to NER outline. The tender needs a bit of milling out inside to take the chip, but one has a tiny CT chip inside, the other three Lenz Silver Minis. The three Lenz chipped locos run fine but I still have issues getting the best out of CT chips.
Overall, the cost of the two Powercabs and other bits I needed were covered by the two transformers, three hand-helds, three panel boxes, vast numbers of switches, four reels of wire and the extra connectors etc that I didn't buy. The cost of chipping locos has been met by selling much of my surplus stock of another time period. I also gained about six to eight weeks on the extra wiring and testing I didn't need to do.
Would I change again? Probably not if I hadn't the stock to sell to fund it. Would I change back? No. Will I DCC my German layout? No as it is "complete" and fully stocked. If starting another layout of (say) US outline or a period I have no locos for at all would it be DCC? Yes.
Hope this helps.
Les
Thanks Les, nothing beats 'real world' experience. As I mentioned earlier, I have so far only used one kind of chip, the 'cheap' Bachmann one, purely because it fits into the decoder sockets on all my stock, and does a good basic job for £15. Given your average loco price these days of around £85-£100, I guess that's fair enough?
Les, I'm interested to hear what those £30 chips can offer us in terms of functionality, say over the £15 Bachmann, or is it purely a matter of personal choice (or is it a size consideration)? I know that with 00 gauge there seems to be greater functionality within rolling stock (lights/sound/smoke etc) but my n gauge loco's so far have just had directional lighting. I think this is fine for my needs, as I can't see myself wanting the other functions particularly (although smoke does conjure some amusing images of my smoke alarm system going into melt-down!).
Thank you
Andy
Quote from: ngauger on February 02, 2014, 01:13:11 PM
I have so far only used one kind of chip, the 'cheap' Bachmann one, purely because it fits into the decoder sockets on all my stock, and does a good basic job for £15. Given your average loco price these days of around £85-£100, I guess that's fair enough?
Les, I'm interested to hear what those £30 chips can offer us in terms of functionality, say over the £15 Bachmann, or is it purely a matter of personal choice (or is it a size consideration)?
Hi Andy
My experience is that uou really do get what you pay for - the Zimos and CT decoders (both £25-35 depending on the model) offer better control adn running straight out of the box. There is also a question of size in that CT in particular do some really tiny decoders which obviously makes fitting easier if space is pushed.
That isn't to say that some of the cheaper £15-20 decoders won't do a good job.
Cheers, Mike
A lot of talk here of DCC... :hmmm:
I moved back to DC last year and I don't regret it one bit. Anyway you cut it DCC will cost more, if you have plenty of money then that's fine, but if like me you're counting the pennies then it's DC all the way.
Don't get me wrong, I like DCC - Endless features and of course sound, but I just can't afford it !
DC in my view is simpler, cheaper and easier to understand - especially for the novice.
What doesn't help here is that some forum members can't seem to accept that some people just don't like DCC and so they 'sell' the DCC concept quite hard. I am worried that some novice members may have spent loads on new DCC equipment as advised - just run a train round an oval, when a £30 DC controller would have done the same job......
Quote from: 4x2 on February 02, 2014, 02:55:11 PM
A lot of talk here of DCC... :hmmm:
I moved back to DC last year and I don't regret it one bit. Anyway you cut it DCC will cost more, if you have plenty of money then that's fine, but if like me you're counting the pennies then it's DC all the way.
Don't get me wrong, I like DCC - Endless features and of course sound, but I just can't afford it !
DC in my view is simpler, cheaper and easier to understand - especially for the novice.
What doesn't help here is that some forum members can't seem to accept that some people just don't like DCC and so they 'sell' the DCC concept quite hard. I am worried that some novice members may have spent loads on new DCC equipment as advised - just run a train round an oval, when a £30 DC controller would have done the same job......
Man after my own heart i am not knocking DCC but from my point of view DC does what i want it to do will use the idea of a bus wire so more feeds to the track and easier to put in section switches but having said in other posts i had given DCC a good 4 years but all the faffing about with converting locos and having to do a program list to know which loco i was going to run not fun for me at all so being able to take the loco out of the box and running it is my idea of heaven so all i want to do at times is play trains when not doing other bits to my layout
kevin 141
Quote from: ngauger on February 02, 2014, 01:13:11 PM
Quote from: Les1952 on February 02, 2014, 10:41:56 AM
Getting locos chipped isn't cheap- I now tend to use either Lenz or Zimo chips, which for a six-pin chip are about £30 a time.
Hope this helps.
Les
Les, I'm interested to hear what those £30 chips can offer us in terms of functionality, say over the £15 Bachmann, or is it purely a matter of personal choice (or is it a size consideration)? Thank you
Andy
I do have quite a few of the Bachmann £15 chips and when they run there's no problem, but they are more susceptible to failure if there is a problem on the circuit board. I've lost one due to stray solder on the circuit board of a Farish class 37. Given that Farish solder appears slightly better on average than Dapol solder I took the view that the more expensive chips were better protected against short-circuits.
On size, the slightly smaller Lenz and Zimo chips are a more comfortable fit inside Dapol tenders.
All the very best
Les
The way I view DCC is like this. Each chip is basically a DC controller, fed 16vac through the track (as most hand held DC controllers are), and pre-programmed and controlled by the DCC system.
If you look at it this way it helps to explain why chips are expensive, and like DC controllers those with better performance are generally more expensive than more basic versions.
Izzy
This has been a great debate so far from all.
QuoteI am worried that some novice members may have spent loads on new DCC equipment as advised - just run a train round an oval, when a £30 DC controller would have done the same job......
This to me is why people need to look at their future plans.Go back to day one when you decided you wanted to join the happy band of enthusiasts that you met at the local Train Fest. Most of those layouts would have been DC. So the argument that DCC gets you more control or easier control isn't really valid.
I suspect 80% or more buy DCC for one of four reasons.
- Easy to have more than one loco running at differing speeds. But just wait till you're got three or four locos running and you suddenly need to change something - slow a loco down, stop at a station. You might find you need the reactions of a game player from Call of Duty, the memory of an elephant to remember the all the loco addresses and the button pushing control of a high speed mobile phone SMS sender to get the sequences in quick enough. And that's without adding all the turnout info.
DCC does give you the ability to adjust you loco to run at a more prototypical speed/accel/decel/crawl etc. But it takes time and effort to learn about and adjust those pesky CV's. It doesn't necessarily make for smooth easy operation of your layout. That's why there is a STOP ALL button.
:hmmm: How many of use change many of the presets that the decoders come with other than the address. So it could be said DCC takes the skill out of learning to controlling your loco.
- Layout control - great misconception. I have mentioned this elsewhere on the forum and at the fear of repeating myself. Yes DCC can, but refer to the bit above about memory and button pressing skills. Bloody hard work with one controller. I have have sold my turnout controls and gone back to manual.
:hmmm: Am I aiming for total automation ?
- Sound.. Everyone likes to hear the sounds of a layout, locos chuffing/humming, whistles blasting. It comes at price and good surround sound can be as effective and a lot cheaper. Many of the newer sound boards will run automatically under DC and there are simple Bell/Horn units that can trigger the relevant CVs if wanted. Again ££s less than a DCC controller.
:hmmm: How many of us look to see the options on sound ?
- Less wiring....NOT less amount - less complex. Droppers need to be run in the same way Block Feeds are required for DC (possibly more)
:hmmm: How many run just the bare minimum ?
The first is the most critical and influential. DC layouts are no harder to design and DCC layouts require every bit as much planning. Electrics will be more of a challenge, but that is the first major choice of your enjoyment/involvement. As the quote says - simple oval:simple controller.
A certain amount will look to full automation and for a single owner of a large railway DCC offers that but the cost - another small detail most dealers forget to mention. We all dream about our own large layout, but don't have the room or the wallet.
I can fully understand why people revert back to DC in the same way newbies start out with DCC and I wish all a happy trouble free time with whatever system they have or revert/upgrade to. No doubt some will agree and some disagree with this offering, but hey that's why this forum is good fun.
REMEMBER RULE ONE.
Back into the debate!!
TDU, you're absolutely right when you say newcomers should consider their future plans, and of course some will cast their imagination a deal further than others. The reason I'm following this debate (originally posted by a fellow who was 'returning' to DC) and hopefully adding to it in a positive way, is that I myself started out about 4 years or so ago with a DC controller and a couple of DC loco's. I purchased them from my 'local' dealer (20 miles hence), who conveniently neglected to inform me that in the forty or so years since I last dallied with model railways that a nice system enigmatically called 'DCC' had been invented.
I'm not 'blaming' them, or anybody, it was my fault for nor researching the subject (given the vast array of info available to one on t'internet, it was my own fault!) Once I had glimpsed the possibilities for myself, it re-awoke in me all those childhood imaginings, of computer control, automation etc etc. In other words, it appealed to the technology lover in me, the very thought that the kind of things I'd dreamed of all those years ago as a young lad could now be achieved, albeit with a little research.
So I had my method of control, I just need to purchase the hardware! That was a little more tricky, and I can't really remember why I plumped for the NCE Powercab, I think because it appeared to be the only true 'one handed' controller, oh, and it 'looked' nice! I did consider the Gaugemaster outfit, but that is not truly a one handed operator/controller, and the other 'nice' German stuff (Vorsprung durch Technik!) was out of my price bracket at that point in time!
Well, 3 years or so on, and I don't regret it one bit. I only had to purchase a USB connection module, which allowed me to tap the power of my iMac. These days, I can honestly say that I use my computer to control my trains 90% of the time, simply because I can see the info on the screen, so I know what is happening all the time.
If I want to do a little shunting on a siding, I grab my Powercab, select the loco, and finesse it's movements that way, it has a nice 'feel' to it.
On the horizon is automation, albeit in a two stage process. Firstly I need to motorise my points, (using Tortoise/Cobalt style motors) then hook them up to my PC using JMRI/NCE to control routes for my trains. Once that's been done, I then need to install block detectors/feedback to the system to detect the trains in motion so that (hopefully) the two can be automated at some point. I'd say it's a couple of years off for me, 'cause I don't move too fast these days!
Could I go back to DC? Very simple answer, NO!
P.S Speaking as somebody who also believes in global cooperation and standardisation, it pleases me greatly to see a system that encompasses all that's good in human ingenuity, brought together in one package.
I have just got round to watching the free DVD in Hornby mag about their DCC system. Leaving aside the scenes of OO locos going around impossible radii and just concentrating on the pre-programmed sequence of starts, toots, going, and stopping, DCC has the potential to reduce the experience to that of a casual observer or train spotter. Can be made to be boring. If that's what you want I suppose DCC can surely deliver it. So thinking about it DC and DCC are quite different products for different people. DCC is not, in my view, merely a development beyond DC. You are either a DC person or a DCC person much the same as automatic gearchange people (cars) or clutch and gear lever people.
I can afford the price of an automatic car - I just don't want one. The more I see of DCC the more I come to realise I just don't want it - it's just not me.
Quote from: Izzy on February 02, 2014, 09:24:13 PM
The way I view DCC is like this. Each chip is basically a DC controller, fed 16vac through the track (as most hand held DC controllers are), and pre-programmed and controlled by the DCC system.
If you look at it this way it helps to explain why chips are expensive, and like DC controllers those with better performance are generally more expensive than more basic versions.
Izzy
Sorry, but I can't let this pass.
I doubt if the manufacturing cost of the most expensive DCC controller (including with sound) exceeds £2 - £3.
...R
Quote from: ParkeNd on February 03, 2014, 09:13:49 AM
I have just got round to watching the free DVD in Hornby mag about their DCC system. Leaving aside the scenes of OO locos going around impossible radii and just concentrating on the pre-programmed sequence of starts, toots, going, and stopping, DCC has the potential to reduce the experience to that of an casual observer or train spotter. Can be made to be boring.
I thought Hornby were synonymous with 'Train sets', as opposed to GF/Bachmann/Dapol et-al aimed at the more serious enthusiast? At least they were back in the 60's/70's.
Anyhow, I personally would love to see my layout come alive with trains starting/running/stopping etc emerging from tunnels, but as I operate it on my own, that would never happen without some kind of automation in play, even in it's most basic form of a shuttle, going back and forth.
Quote from: ngauger on February 03, 2014, 09:28:30 AM
Quote from: ParkeNd on February 03, 2014, 09:13:49 AM
I have just got round to watching the free DVD in Hornby mag about their DCC system. Leaving aside the scenes of OO locos going around impossible radii and just concentrating on the pre-programmed sequence of starts, toots, going, and stopping, DCC has the potential to reduce the experience to that of an casual observer or train spotter. Can be made to be boring.
I thought Hornby were synonymous with 'Train sets', as opposed to GF/Bachmann/Dapol et-al aimed at the more serious enthusiast? At least they were back in the 60's/70's.
Anyhow, I personally would love to see my layout come alive with trains starting/running/stopping etc emerging from tunnels, but as I operate it on my own, that would never happen without some kind of automation in play, even in it's most basic form of a shuttle, going back and forth.
As I have gone on to say DCC seems to be neither better nor worse than DC. It's for different people in my view.
Hornby are just different from us by being OO aren't they. Not sure they are just about kiddy trainset toys?
This DC - DCC debate will go on for ever as long as there's old blokes like me around. I take the view that, just like mobile phone technology, if model railways are around in 50 years time, then they will all be digital.
It's the likes of me that are probably slowing down the change over!
If I was starting out, I wouldn't give the issue a moment's thought. I would go DCC.
As I have posted many times, I am stuck with an aging layout which is DC. End of story.
I would love DCC. As for Hornby 00 being train sets, I started out with a Triang one. In this day and age of computer games and weird phone apps, I think that if Hornby are still selling train sets, it is enormously encouraging for the hobby.
To reply to the thread, I don't have to go back to DC. It's a dinosaur I'm stuck with. (But I secretly like section switches and wiring up live frogs and having wiring looms as thick as me arm.....)
:D ;D ;D
For me, one of the best layouts on the forum is that of Whiteswan.
The effects created are superb and the standard of modelling extremely high but I would like to think most can be created in DC as well as DCC so as an old DC fart I still have targets to reach for.
I'm still not convinced by sound, not in any gauge, as I have never heard anything decent which would make me think "I gotta have that". Your mission, Jim, should you decide to accept it, is to make me change my mind on that :D
This is a very good thread, and should be made compulsory reading for anyone starting out in the hobby :thumbsup:
Quote from: newportnobby on February 03, 2014, 11:14:48 AM
For me, one of the best layouts on the forum is that of Whiteswan.
The effects created are superb and the standard of modelling extremely high but I would like to think most can be created in DC as well as DCC so as an old DC fart I still have targets to reach for.
I'm still not convinced by sound, not in any gauge, as I have never heard anything decent which would make me think "I gotta have that". Your mission, Jim, should you decide to accept it, is to make me change my mind on that :D
This is a very good thread, and should be made compulsory reading for anyone starting out in the hobby :thumbsup:
Sound, now there's a subject! I don't know much about DCC and sound, other than I've heard it exists. I must admit I've often idly pressed the horn/whistle panel on my DCC PC setup to a deafening silence, and thought how nice it would be to hear a friendly retort! I had an idea a while ago (danger, warning!) whilst considering the possibilities of sound, that it ought to be possible to call up recorded sound files to create a 'tapestry' of background sound, and this would be accessed through your PC much like a digital audio workstation. THe 'tracks' could be played and triggered at specific events, i.e when a certain loco hits a certain block etc. Of course hitting the horn button on your controller or screen would emit the requisite horn sound from an archive of that particular (real) loco. All of this of course would come from a pair of speakers (or 5.1 surround sound ideally!) for a totally immersive experience. Much like how some museums & galleries arrange sound for some exhibits.
Food for thought maybe?
Take care
Andy
P.S I didn't intend any slur on Hornby products, of which I have had several in the past, merely made a comment based on my old and inaccurate preconceptions! Naughty me.
Well this ageing old fart is not stopping in his tracks I love the complexity of DCC and yes the initial outlay is great if you are going to go down the automated route but hey you can drive the trains yourself or turn the pc on and sit back and enjoy, Whiteswan has been giving me some advice regards automation, and I thank her sincerely the lady has a vast knowledge on this subject, but I could never go down the DC route ever again, if your stuck in 40 years ago technology that is fine and it is each to there own, but please no one should tell people you should do this and that, at the end of the day its your choice and if your happy with it so be it.
This is one great thread and it is a joy to put my tuppence worth in, and as long as we are having fun playing trains that is fine by me.
By the way :NGaugersRule:
I am pleased that the debate on this topic has sparked a good reaction keep up the good comments and ideas and we may all find some thing that will appeal or spark an idea.As i have said before dcc not for me but those that do use it keep up your good work.If i was starting again or new to the hobby there is a
good change i would go dcc.
kevin141 :Class37:
Quote from: newportnobby on February 03, 2014, 11:14:48 AM
I'm still not convinced by sound, not in any gauge, as I have never heard anything decent which would make me think "I gotta have that". :thumbsup:
This! I don't know what it is inside of me, but every time I watch a video on youtube with a layout that is wired for sound it just seems...off. There's a disconnect in my mind. I know I'm seeing a "toy" and yet the sound is real. The feeling inside of me is almost more dissonance than disconnect. It gives me a weird feeling. I don't know if I'm making any sense.
Also, I actually like the little engine sounds and clickety-click of my N-Gauge rolling stock as they make their way around the track.
Great discussion! I love how everyone here can disagree and yet get along!
Quote from: scottmitchell74 on February 03, 2014, 02:07:23 PM
Quote from: newportnobby on February 03, 2014, 11:14:48 AM
I'm still not convinced by sound, not in any gauge, as I have never heard anything decent which would make me think "I gotta have that". :thumbsup:
This! I don't know what it is inside of me, but every time I watch a video on youtube with a layout that is wired for sound it just seems...off. There's a disconnect in my mind. I know I'm seeing a "toy" and yet the sound is real. The feeling inside of me is almost more dissonance than disconnect. It gives me a weird feeling. I don't know if I'm making any sense.
Also, I actually like the little engine sounds and clickety-click of my N-Gauge rolling stock as they make their way around the track.
Great discussion! I love how everyone here can disagree and yet get along!
I think I concur with your rationale there Scott, and I also like the sound my stock makes, some areas are even pretty 'scale' with their 'clank-clank clank-clank' over the point-work! However, taking railway modelling to it's base element, it is a form of 'escapism' is it not? Something that mimics real life, without being a literal copy, so by that same token, I can envisage sound being used as a backdrop, you know the sort of thing, station sounds, tannoys, chatter, door clanking etc, close your eyes, and you're there, therapy almost!!
Andy
I have a double set of points that gives off a great sound when a loco with a rake of coaches passes through. Makes me smile every time!
Blimey! I'm getting withdrawal symptoms, haven't playe run anything for months! :(
Dave G
I have harped on before about the late P.D. Hancock and his Craig & Mertonford layouts. To me he is one of the greats of this hobby - as a kid I'd be following each episode in Railway Modeller - much as some people watch soapies on TV these days!!
Anyway one very simple little trick he did on the 1967 version of his layout - he cut small nicks in the track just outside a tunnel portal which he said made a clackety-clack sound as a train came speeding out of the tunnel which he described as being "most satisfying."
Quote from: Bealman on February 03, 2014, 10:26:37 PM
I have harped on before about the late P.D. Hancock and his Craig & Mertonford layouts. To me he is one of the greats of this hobby - as a kid I'd be following each episode in Railway Modeller - much as some people watch soapies on TV these days!!
Anyway one very simple little trick he did on the 1967 version of his layout - he cut small nicks in the track just outside a tunnel portal which he said made a clackety-clack sound as a train came speeding out of the tunnel which he described as being "most satisfying."
That's a great little tip, and well worth the effort. I suppose you'd have to be very careful to produce a very small nick in N, though. Was C&M an 00 Gauge layout?
The C & M was a multi-gauge layout. He envisaged a fictional part of Scotland - Craigshire with the towns of Craig and Mertonford being connected by a narrow gauge railway, with the large town of Craig also having standard gauge connections with the North British Railway and the Caledonian.
He was a true pioneer - the standard gauge was 00, and the narrow gauge... well, when he began there was nothing available so it was hand built. Interestingly, at the time he was unsure of whether to build it as 9.5mm or 9mm gauge. He chose 9mm - which of course we all know now as 009 and N!!!!
At one point he also had trams running, also on hand built track, and even had a half a mm to the foot scale garden railway running around in front of a house! (It was a clockwork toy he got from Woolworths).
If you want to learn more of this great layout, he wrote a lavishly illustrated book about it in 1975 called "Narrow Gauge Adventure", published by Peco. There is a review I wrote in the 'Book Reviews' section of the forum. I have a feeling that it may be out of print these days, but probably available somewhere.
The little cuts he made for the clickedy-clack sound were in the 00 gauge track, incidentally. :thumbsup:
George
This is drifting off topic as the nicks can be made whether you are DCC or DC.
I made those nicks with a razor saw on my last layout and the sound was most satisfying. However, when I posted that on the forum in my early days I was soundly berated for giving track dirt the ideal home :-[
Quote from: Bealman on February 03, 2014, 11:42:06 PM
If you want to learn more of this great layout, he wrote a lavishly illustrated book about it in 1975 called "Narrow Gauge Adventure", published by Peco. There is a review I wrote in the 'Book Reviews' section of the forum. I have a feeling that it may be out of print these days, but probably available somewhere.
The little cuts he made for the clickedy-clack sound were in the 00 gauge track, incidentally. :thumbsup:
George
The book's available second-hand, but eBay have it at £49 and £100. It's cheaper on Amazon. The best price seems to be around £15, so it's available for anyone who really wants a copy.
Would the cuts work on N Gauge, or would they be like hitting Grand Canyons?
Quote from: Pete33 on February 04, 2014, 10:01:44 AM
Quote from: Bealman on February 03, 2014, 11:42:06 PM
Would the cuts work on N Gauge, or would they be like hitting Grand Canyons?
I would've thought they would be ok with a fine Dremel wheel? After all, the insulated rail joiners have a small gap do they not?
If you have an old piece of track lying about, give it a try!
Andy
I generally use the Digitrax decoders for cheap stuff. They are often cheaper than the Bachmann one, and they work better. They also have a 'goof proof' warranty which has its uses for the higher priced chips (for the £12.50 ones its almost cheaper not to bother sending it back to Digitrax if you blow it up in a non 'sale of goods' covered way)
Looking forward to touch screen monitors becoming way cheaper so I can have my JMRI signalling panel working in touchscreen mode and hang it on the wall like a proper box ;)
Alan
Quote from: ngauger on February 04, 2014, 10:10:49 AM
If you have an old piece of track lying about, give it a try!
Andy
I don't have any old track, let alone a Dremel. :D Hopefully someone else can test it and let us know if it works.
I would have thought a couple of quick passes with the edge of a thin file would create enough of a nick in the rail to produce the 'clickety-clack' sound...
Quote from: EtchedPixels on February 04, 2014, 01:12:50 PM
Looking forward to touch screen monitors becoming way cheaper so I can have my JMRI signalling panel working in touchscreen mode and hang it on the wall like a proper box ;)
Alan
A man after my own heart!
Quote from: Pete33 on February 04, 2014, 01:30:11 PM
Quote from: ngauger on February 04, 2014, 10:10:49 AM
If you have an old piece of track lying about, give it a try!
Andy
I don't have any old track, let alone a Dremel. :D Hopefully someone else can test it and let us know if it works.
Please see reply #123
:offtopicsign:
Guys were going away from the debate. It's starting to happen in a lot of threads.
I'm not trying to spoil anything or be picky, but it's frustrating reading through bits that have little relevance to the original topic.
Guilty as charged, m'lud :-[
Yep, me too :-[ :offtopicsign:
But seeing as I'm the one that steered it that way, I'll get the last word in - yep, a nick with a file should do the trick :D
Back to dc!!
Well i am pleased i went back to dc got the show layout to get ready for 23rd February when it is on show at Hubberts Bridge nr Boston,a quick track clean and all tracks working fine never had that with dcc so my decision for me is right :claphappy:
kevin141
Quote from: kevin141 on February 07, 2014, 02:53:01 PM
Well i am pleased i went back to dc got the show layout to get ready for 23rd February when it is on show at Hubberts Bridge nr Boston,a quick track clean and all tracks working fine never had that with dcc so my decision for me is right :claphappy:
kevin141
I think that's what they call 'full circle posting'! :)
Andy
:offtopicsign: Hubberts Bridge 23rd Feb?? Do you have any more details as I may try to get along to that one.
:beers:
My layout is DC with over 30 locos and i was getting a hankering for walkabout controllers as i do not have 6 foot long arms and eyes in the back of my head. Then i read a post on battery power radio control!.
My layout will now be a DC/battery hybrid until battery technology gives us high power tiny batteries (they are under development). Then i will convert all the locos and switch off the Gaugemasters for ever.
Quote from: davecttr on February 19, 2014, 08:10:32 PM
My layout is DC with over 30 locos and i was getting a hankering for walkabout controllers as i do not have 6 foot long arms and eyes in the back of my head. Then i read a post on battery power radio control!.
My layout will now be a DC/battery hybrid until battery technology gives us high power tiny batteries (they are under development). Then i will convert all the locos and switch off the Gaugemasters for ever.
Would like to know a bit more sounds interesting
kevin141
Or get a Morley controller with plug in hand helds :D
Quote from: newportnobby on February 19, 2014, 08:59:50 PM
Or get a Morley controller with plug in hand helds :D
Got seriously interested in one of those myself but chickened out at the last minute and went Gaugemaster based on nothing more than conservatism. When I get really fed up with all the humming I reckon Morley is the way to go - and not expensive either - unlike that jokey DCC stuff.
:laugh3:
Quote from: ParkeNd on February 19, 2014, 11:20:45 PM
Quote from: newportnobby on February 19, 2014, 08:59:50 PM
Or get a Morley controller with plug in hand helds :D
Got seriously interested in one of those myself but chickened out at the last minute and went Gaugemaster based on nothing more than conservatism. When I get really fed up with all the humming I reckon Morley is the way to go - and not expensive either - unlike that jokey DCC stuff.
:laugh3:
Hi ParkeNd,
Don't feel bad about using Gaugemaster! I prefer Gaugemaster - it has a better "feel" in the hand; (the Morley feels lightweight to me), I prefer the reversing switch rather than a dual direction knob, Morley don't have a centre detent which I find awkward and doesn't have 16vDC (just a built in CDU).
I am sure that Moreley's are perfectly good and high quality, but the Gaugemaster way has advantages too!
Cheers Jon :)
Quote from: PostModN66 on February 19, 2014, 11:28:47 PM
Quote from: ParkeNd on February 19, 2014, 11:20:45 PM
Quote from: newportnobby on February 19, 2014, 08:59:50 PM
Or get a Morley controller with plug in hand helds :D
Got seriously interested in one of those myself but chickened out at the last minute and went Gaugemaster based on nothing more than conservatism. When I get really fed up with all the humming I reckon Morley is the way to go - and not expensive either - unlike that jokey DCC stuff.
:laugh3:
Hi ParkeNd,
Don't feel bad about using Gaugemaster! I prefer Gaugemaster - it has a better "feel" in the hand; (the Morley feels lightweight to me), I prefer the reversing switch rather than a dual direction knob, Morley don't have a centre detent which I find awkward and doesn't have 16vDC (just a built in CDU).
I am sure that Moreley's are perfectly good and high quality, but the Gaugemaster way has advantages too!
Cheers Jon :)
Thanks Jon. It does work very well I have to say. Just worried when it started humming that I had wimped out.
Quote from: kevin141 on February 19, 2014, 08:25:50 PM
Quote from: davecttr on February 19, 2014, 08:10:32 PM
My layout is DC with over 30 locos and i was getting a hankering for walkabout controllers as i do not have 6 foot long arms and eyes in the back of my head. Then i read a post on battery power radio control!.
My layout will now be a DC/battery hybrid until battery technology gives us high power tiny batteries (they are under development). Then i will convert all the locos and switch off the Gaugemasters for ever.
Would like to know a bit more sounds interesting
kevin141
Check this out here http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=17962.0 (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=17962.0)
There is a discussion area at Freerails http://freerails.com/view_forum.php?id=45 (http://freerails.com/view_forum.php?id=45)
Also a radio control section at RM Web http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/forum/228-radio-control/ (http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/forum/228-radio-control/)