Just got back from the Weston-super-Mare 2014 MRE. There was a multitude of good layouts and trade stands, and it was absolutely crowded. Which was good, as all the proceeds go to Weston Hospicecare.
My big bugbear, though, was the standard of shunting on many of the layouts:
When shunting, and propelling some wagons up to some standing in a siding, you don't buffer them up and then continue moving! Surely you should pause a while and at least give the impression that the shunter is coupling the wagons up and releasing the brakes on the standing vehicles (or doing a continuous brake test), before moving off (in either direction)... :hmmm:
Quote from: talisman56 on January 12, 2014, 03:44:04 PM
My big bugbear, though, was the standard of shunting on many of the layouts:
When shunting, and propelling some wagons up to some standing in a siding, you don't buffer them up and then continue moving! Surely you should pause a while and at least give the impression that the shunter is coupling the wagons up and releasing the brakes on the standing vehicles (or doing a continuous brake test), before moving off (in either direction)... :hmmm:
Well, I think you're right in some ways, but asking too much in others.
What I mean is this: model railways are massively speeded up in terms of activity just to make them interesting. Because of space limitations most of us model small stations or goods yards. Modelling a small station with one DMU passenger train an hour, or a goods yard that received a few mineral wagons twice a week wouldn't be much fun!
So like a lot of what we do, there's a balance between rivet counting (which, let's say, is simply desiring as much accuracy as possible) and playing trains (i.e., letting trains move about in an exciting way).
I was watching two layouts in particular at the Chiltern Model Railway Association's St Albans show yesterday. Both N Scale. One was Melton Mowbray North and the other St Ruth. Both are really first rate in terms of looks. But they seemed to be operated in different ways. Melton Mowbray had lots going on including plenty of through trains going nowhere in particular but looking very nice. St Ruth was a terminus layout run to some sort of timetable (actually shown on an iPad type thing bolted onto the front!). It was much slower, and had the sorts of little pauses you mention.
And you know what, they were both fun to watch. One captured the
atmosphere of a busy station, while the other caught the
details you'd see if you stood still a while and watched a single locomotive doing serious work.
Cheers, NeMo
drive the engine onto the wagons.......... push the wagons hard onto the buffer stop at the end of the line so they couple......pull the train into the fiddle yard to remove the wagons you don't want....uncouple the rest.....
prod the engine to establish electric contact... gently shunt the wagons out so they don't couple up.....
can you tell I have a continuous run layout????
:laughabovepost: Glad someone else shunts like I do. Problem I have is getting the wagons/carriages to actual hook up.
Sometimes I also get those flying wagons moved by the Hand of God when one isn't in the right place !
Quote from: port perran on January 12, 2014, 05:15:40 PM
Sometimes I also get those flying wagons moved by the Hand of God when one isn't in the right place !
Arr the old 0-5-0 HOG shunter! I'm sure most of us has one of these. ;D
Quote from: Jack on January 12, 2014, 06:27:03 PM
Quote from: port perran on January 12, 2014, 05:15:40 PM
Sometimes I also get those flying wagons moved by the Hand of God when one isn't in the right place !
Arr the old 0-5-0 HOG shunter! I'm sure most of us has one of these. ;D
Mine's a 1-4-0 - is that OK? :confused1:
Talisman56
It's an interesting question. thanks for posing it.
FWIW, I personally do NOT shunt my layouts when at exhibitions, for a very specific reason; doing-so frequently creates situations where the public are not well-served, and where they do not get value for their hard-earned money.
Casual observation over the the years I have publicly-exhibited layouts, suggests that (irrespective of scale), where 'shunting' is undertaken several things tend to occur: :
1. The 'operator' becomes totally-self absorbed in what he is doing, to the exclusion of the watching public. The public, seeing only the top of a head, or getting little response from the totally-engrossed-operator, perceive that they are being largely-ignored (which they are) and move on.
2. The operator finds that his previously perfectly-working locomotive simply doesn't and (without a back-up/reserve unit to substitute) spends an immense amount of time trying to make the recalcitrant operate - again, in front of the watching (and frequently-bemused) public. The public, despite giving encouragement to the operator, and being prepared to 'hang about' ;just in case something actually DOES work, eventually tire of doing-so, and move along, taking with them a very jaundiced viewpoint about the reliability of model trains...
3. The operator forgets that he is part of a show and gets all his mates around to 'assist' him and share the enjoyment. This has the effect of producing a 'wall' of backs in front of the layout, that the viewing public cannot penetrate and offering little view of what is going on. The public viewer, confronted by this, moves on - there being better things to see than a whole lot of shirt-backs
All of the actions listed above leave the paying public feeling completely bemused and (in some instances, apparently)short-changed, and do nothing to encourage newbies into the hobby. If anything it seems to put people off.
Enquiries (and often unsolicited comments from 'the floor') indicate that the public (who are, after-all paying for the privilege of watching us 'play') prefer to watch trains moving past, and that they care very little about the fact that the shunting being carried-out in front of them is an exact replica of what went on at Little Hogsnort-on-the-Wye (or anywhere else). They are simply 'not into' shunting, and, noticeably, many will shy-away if they see such things in front of them.
As many operators will no doubt attest, it's amazing what you hear when running a model railway at an exhibition, and when I first heard these sorts of things (that 'shunting-type layouts are not much liked) from those viewing what I was doing, I didn't believe them - putting them down to 'sour grapes'. However, after watching public-reaction in front of 'shunting' layouts I find that what I was being told was in fact true - unfortunately.
And before anyone gets all 'horribly-utterly', these observations are not presented as criticisms, but are in response to the question 'How do you shunt'? They are also based on my own personal experiences so perhaps things are different at other shows...
So, to answer the original question: 'How do you shunt'? At exhibitions, I don't ...
As I said, FWIW, thanks for asking.
A very valid question from Talisman56 in my view.
Lowbeck Hall East ( http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=9118.msg96125#msg96125 (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=9118.msg96125#msg96125) ) is basically an exhibition shunting layout, mainly light engine movements but also a couple of short trip workings that require some coupling/uncoupling. I manage to keep the HOG down to a minimum by making sure before a show that track and wheels are ultra clean and that couplings are tweaked and uncouplers are working properly. During the show, if I start seeing a pattern of stalling, derailment, coupling troubles, etc. the offending bit of track gets cleaned straight away and troublesome wagons or locos removed for examination during a quiet moment. From my limited show experience, good preparation pays dividends, though when things go wrong you can be assured it's when a crowd is watching.
My particular bugbear is over acceleration and deceleration, which is an issue on many continuous run layouts I've seen at exhibitions...
I enjoy watching shunting, almost regardless of the scale or era of the layout. It is best if it can be done completely hands free and without rapid acceleration and deceleration. One of my favourite exhibition layouts had three lines, two were for continuous running and operated from behind the scenes; the third was operated from the front and connected to a yard where shunting took place although the operator was more than happy to break off shunting to chat to people.
On my layout I try to shunt slowly and try to be realistic. Easi-shunt magnetic couplings are a big help although sometimes you end up chasing wagons down the line. I made a mistake building my layout with dead frog points so it isn't ideal for small shunters but I just use something larger.
Not sure if I'll try any shunting when I exhibit my layout later this year, I'll probably keep things simple.
Quote from: Komata on January 13, 2014, 04:35:09 AM
Talisman56
FWIW, I personally do NOT shunt my layouts when at exhibitions, for a very specific reason; doing-so frequently creates situations where the public are not well-served, and where they do not get value for their hard-earned money.
In the way of balance, I do shunt at exhibitions, and generally receive positive feedback from modellers and the general public. I try to avoid the negative practices Komata has outlined above. Shunting is half of what goes on, the other half is that my fiddle yard team (generally Neal and Callum) keep a steady flow of through trains as well, so there is something for everyone. For those unavoidable seconds where no through trains are running, I feel that a train shunting is at least better than a hiatus.
I try and keep accelerations low, but I would not pretend that even with my smooth running class 60 they are at true scale rates. A key thing for me is to engage the audience by explaining what is happening, and also encouraging audience participation by allowing people to operate points and signals (though on another thread about this, encouraging audience participation was seen by many as a negative).
Many of you will have seen my video clips :sleep:, but this, I think gives a fairly true impression of what you would see on Lofthole at an exhibition:
Lofthole Part 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_IF-CPyeI0#)
I would encourage you to try a bit of shunting at your exhibition John, to me it adds an extra dimension when I am tired of seeing trains whiz round!
Cheers Jon :)
Quote from: Only Me on January 12, 2014, 05:39:07 PM
I use Krois couplers on the front and back of my 08 and 04's so no hand of god requirements for moi :)
That's an interesting coupler, shame i'm not dcc(yet atleast). How does it operate, ie what will it couple up to?
Going back to Talisman's question - surely the real question is "how would the real railway shunt?"
Sadly, we can't just pop down to our local station and watch, because freight shunting just doesn't happen nowadays. Even heritage lines don't give a proper feel for steam / early diesel era shunting as they are bound by more recent "elf & safety" requirements - real shunting was a dangerous business.
If fitted, any vacuum would have been destroyed on arrival and all shunting carried out with automatic brakes inoperative - so need for pauses to couple vac hoses and create vacuum whilst shunting. Unfitted freight would obviously have no automatic brakes to disable.
If shunting an arriving train, it is a matter of berthing each wagon where need for unloading and (if a through train) parking all the non-local stuff on a different siding - or the running line - out of the way. Placement would most commonly done by propelling to the point in question and then stopping before uncoupling, though in many small yards, final placement would have been achieved by man- or horse-power; you can pretty well guarantee this on a "kick-back" siding within a goods yard, the loco would not run round just for the benefit of getting a couple of wagons into it.
When making up a departing train, more often than not, coupling was left until everything was in the relevant siding, and in the right order to facilitate working at the next station or yard, then the shunting (or train) engine would buffer everything up for the shunter to couple. Hence no pauses to couple between movements. Only after the train engine is coupled up would there be any need to create (and of course check!) vacuum - always assuming it has any vacuum component, many trip workings would not have done.
Shunting movements (other than final berthing) would often, even usually, be carried out by "loose shunting" (NOT fly-shunting - a completely different beast, banned by regulations almost everywhere) where the shunter uncouples the wagon(s) required before, or whilst, the engine simply shoves it hard enough to get it to roll clear of the entry points into the siding, if necessary giving anything standing there a helping hand further down the siding (with a bit of a bang!). This means that there was a lot of quite smart accelerating and quick braking on the part of the shunting engine during shunting; and one can appreciate the preference for a loco with lever reverse over one with screw reverse!
Don't forget there would be some exceptions - certain types of fragile or explosive goods for example were conveyed in wagons stencilled "NOT TO BE LOOSE SHUNTED" - or banned from being loose shunted in the GA without needing to be stencilled.
Try translating this into what you see on a model and see how it matches up ...
Brian
Quote from: Komata on January 13, 2014, 04:35:09 AM
doing-so frequently creates situations where the public are not well-served, and where they do not get value for their hard-earned money.
I usually pass the roundy roundies by and head for the layouts where some shunting is taking place.
Quote from: Komata on January 13, 2014, 04:35:09 AM
1. The 'operator' becomes totally-self absorbed in what he is doing, to the exclusion of the watching public. The public, seeing only the top of a head, or getting little response from the totally-engrossed-operator, perceive that they are being largely-ignored (which they are) and move on.
Totally agree, being ignored is a turn off. However if you are exhibiting a shunting layout you need to make sure that your track is spotless and correctly laid, your locos run slowly and at the first signs of poking being necessary he loco is withdrawn and fixed.
Quote from: Komata on January 13, 2014, 04:35:09 AM
2. The operator finds that his previously perfectly-working locomotive simply doesn't and (without a back-up/reserve unit to substitute) spends an immense amount of time trying to make the recalcitrant operate - again, in front of the watching (and frequently-bemused) public. The public, despite giving encouragement to the operator, and being prepared to 'hang about' ;just in case something actually DOES work, eventually tire of doing-so, and move along, taking with them a very jaundiced viewpoint about the reliability of model trains...
And that jaundiced view is correct. It is possible to run locos at a scale 5mph, but that requires everything to have been set up to a fine tolerance. I guess part of the problem is that under exhibition conditions (lots of heat) then a layout and locos which worked perfectly an hour or two earlier start to misbehave.
Quote from: Komata on January 13, 2014, 04:35:09 AM
3. The operator forgets that he is part of a show and gets all his mates around to 'assist' him and share the enjoyment. This has the effect of producing a 'wall' of backs in front of the layout, that the viewing public cannot penetrate and offering little view of what is going on. The public viewer, confronted by this, moves on - there being better things to see than a whole lot of shirt-backs
I think that is true of any type of layout. The bigger exhibitions (Warley, Ally Pally, TINGS, etc.) seem to present this problem at any/all layouts.
Quote from: Komata on January 13, 2014, 04:35:09 AM
Enquiries (and often unsolicited comments from 'the floor') indicate that the public (who are, after-all paying for the privilege of watching us 'play') prefer to watch trains moving past, and that they care very little about the fact that the shunting being carried-out in front of them is an exact replica of what went on at Little Hogsnort-on-the-Wye (or anywhere else). They are simply 'not into' shunting, and, noticeably, many will shy-away if they see such things in front of them.
I've heard this too, but equally punters asking for more realistic operations.
Quote from: Komata on January 13, 2014, 04:35:09 AM
And before anyone gets all 'horribly-utterly', these observations are not presented as criticisms, but are in response to the question 'How do you shunt'? They are also based on my own personal experiences so perhaps things are different at other shows...
Not 'horribly-utterly' just another view. However I have seen some of the types of layout/operator you mention and I agree they are very self indulgent and boring. But in my book you can't beat a shunting layout which is working well.