N Gauge Forum

Well i thought its about time for a vote...

I have this dis ussion with sooo many people and it generates some very interesting answers.

We have seen new models from both this year, and some models have been made by both manufactures.

Now i feel personally bachmann are waaay out in front of dapol, some of dapols look better but the overall running quality is left behind compared to bachmann. Espe ially when it comes to noise!

Dapols diesels however seem to be much better than their own steamers. But dapol offer the better warranty!

So over to you, which do you prefer?

no arguements please just general discussion and opinions :)

my vote is for Farish  :thumbsup:

No option for - not much between them...

But, do we really need to do this again? It seems like a sure fire way of starting arguments!

Again?

No intention of arguements, im just interested in peoples opinions, general discussion! No arguements :)

From a diesel perspective certainly Dapol for the bodyshells. There are a few minor glitches and compromises (eg the 27 battery box) but on the whole they are more accurate than the Farish ones.

Mechanism wise Farish seem to have the edge except for the lousy gears they use.

It depends so much per model. There are good and bad in either, and even cases where neither is the winner (eg the TPM Class 60 with Lifelike chassis blows the doors off the Farish offering).

personally I prefer the Dapol coaches espically mk3s GWR and teaks as they look really smart and have the ability to easily fit a light inside. a lot of farish coaches still need retooling

Forgive me but there is no right answer. It's like Nikon vs Canon.

IMHO there is no mileage in it. Both do the job, both are different. But unlike Nikon and Canon both are interchangeable - you don't have to commit yourself to a Dapol system or a Farish system.

With limited experience in both I would have to say so far I prefer Graham Farish. I only have one Dapol which looks great but doesn't run as well as my Graham Farish locos.....having said that though there are a couple of Dapol models I have my eye on....I find some of the reports a bit concerning though...

:confused2:

Quote from: red_death on December 30, 2013, 11:24:03 PM
No option for - not much between them...

Good point, have edited the poll for a third option as otherwise many will not feel able to vote at all :)

QuoteBut, do we really need to do this again? It seems like a sure fire way of starting arguments!

I totally agree, needless to say the Mod Team will be watching very closely and any hint of hostilities and it will be locked.

As to the question itself unless invoking Rule 1 I would've thought most people would buy the stock they need for their era/location so there's not a choice most of the time, unless both manufacturers make the same model such as the Voyager or A4. I know I've bought whatever is available regardless of who makes it ;)


Paul

Quote from: ParkeNd on December 31, 2013, 12:11:06 AM
Forgive me but there is no right answer. It's like Nikon vs Canon.

IMHO there is no mileage in it. Both do the job, both are different. But unlike Nikon and Canon both are interchangeable - you don't have to commit yourself to a Dapol system or a Farish system.

Nikon and Canon are virtually bulletproof  ;) ;D but a good analogy nevertheless.

I've introduced a fourth option, neither, because both have caused major issues for me in the past and I'm unlikely to buy either again - a reason why 1:160 is now my preference.

Quote from: class37025 on December 30, 2013, 11:19:16 PM
my vote is for Farish  :thumbsup:

Although I have some very nice Dapol locos my vote is for Farish too.

My reasoning is that the Farish locos I feel better made/engineered overall and are better finished. The new generation of Farish steam (especially those with the coreless motors) are simply streets ahead.

That said neither are perfect, I have one Farish Ivatt that still runs a little "lumpy" even after a few hours of running.

Roy

I think this has all been covered before on this forum but here is my two penny worth.

I have both the old non DCC ready Dapol Class 66 and a pair of Farish Class 66's.  All have been converted to DCC.  The two Farish locos are fitted with Digitrax decoders, the Dapol with a Lenz Silver mini decoder. 

The performance difference is quite stunning.  The Farish locos run nice and smoothly accelerating smoothly, decellerating slowly but this is controlled by the decoder settings.  All locomotives having a 60MPH max speed set.  The Dapol 66 is similarly configured, the big difference in performance being its slow running.

The slow running characteristics of the Dapol 66 mean that it gets used for the run into the Cement works on Northfleet.  Exchange siding speeds are limited to 15mph.  This loco happily crawls at this speed and will crawl at a scale 1mph around a 10 inch curve with 16 PCAs in tow.  The Farish locos will easily manage 15mph but are not so smooth and will stall below 5mph.

So horses for courses…

I'm diesel era and while Dapol seem to offer a few of interest it's their paint finishes which makes me say no every time.  To be fair I haven't seen lots of Dapols in the flesh -but all I have seen have terrible paint jobs: blurred lining, overspray and fuzzy edges round different colours.  Their mouldings look really crisp but even on the ones with a decent paint job the final finish just looks a bit lacklustre.  Not really worth the premium they always seem to be at for me so pretty much everything I have is Farish (so far).

Is there really even a price difference between them?  Both Dapol and Farish seem to be around £82 per diesel and £95 per steamer with a few small locos costing less and a few big locos costing more.

Still think you buy the loco you need and whether the brand is Dapol or Farish is not relevant IMHO.

All my locomotives and rolling stock have been released in the past couple of years, are DCC ready and are modern outline (so no steam outline). In my experience there is no difference in running quality, paint finishes differ between the two but the Dapol stuff looks older before weathering so no problem there.

If the mechanism that Dapol have used on their 121 / 122 bubble can become a standard for dmu / emu models then they will be well ahead of Farish - look how much of the interior is messed up on the 108's and 101 dmu's.

The real advantage where I think Dapol have Farish licked is the use of NEM sockets and their uncoupling mechanism. Farish promised it and has not delivered. Also, Farish are still releasing locomotives which are neither DCC ready nor have NEM sockets and their split gear problem persists with no reasonable explanation forthcoming.

On the other hand, if you limit purchase of wagons to those with NEMs then you will probably end up running with coaching stock only regardless of either of the manufactures.

So  if it's not a drw, then Dapol wins bu a coupling.

Parkend and Sprintex have hit the nail on the head - the reality is that for many modellers you buy what you need/want in terms of stock regardless of who produced it...

Cheers, Mike

Hi

Is this the Forum's favourite topic - probably because in my opinion there is no answer!!

Here my pennies worth - all purchases made in last 3 years

Steam shockers condemned when new!

Dapol x1
Farish x1


Great steam pulling

Dapol  x5 great x2 OK poor x2

Great Steam slow speed over points

Dapol -all save for Terrier

Farish x2

Poor steam 9 inch curve running

Dapol nil!!

Farish x3

Looks (I know not what the correct colour is)

Dapol  greatest - Silver Link. Poorest - printing on Mallard A4
Farish greatest - Austerity without coal load.

In general I like Dapol coaches and DMUs because of the light bar fittings. Both Farish and Dapol modern rolling stock - no problems there - not yet using Dapol's magnetic couplers.

As for diesel locos - both makes are great in my experience - great pullers and slow running and at least to my eye look good.

Dapol's semaphore signals are excellent.

My main gripe is still the poor QC - one in three of my steamer purchases have either been exchanged, repaired or tweaked by me before they ran well.

Happy New Year

Cheers

Mac

:beers:

I voted Farish, just. For me:

Farish paintwork is finished better
Farish are generally quieter
Farish steam engines do not have a driveshaft in view
Farish do not have PCB issues in the same volume as Dapol

Having said that, Farish are very poor when it comes to some fundamentals, in my experience, quartering, off-round wheels, wobbly wheels & split gears are 'schoolboy' error type issues and spoil otherwise perfect models.

IMO they both need a kick up the backside!

I'm sitting on the fence here.
Very little to choose between them in my opinion.

Kato, all day every day  ;)

If it HAS to be British, then Union Mills gets my vote mostly because they do the motive power needed for the club layout as it is predominantly 2F and 3Fs, and they're practically bomb proof. Most of mine have 2 flawless years of exhibition running with NO lube, or pickup cleaning...or any other maintenance.  :D

Of the 'Big 2' Farish gets my vote, generally speaking problems are at assembly level. I'll sort pickup issues when they arise as its usually down to excess grease, wheel blackening chemicals or poorly adjusted wipers. Wheel quartering isn't that taxing (if a replacement via return isn't possible, and you have a jig) and perceived non concentric wheels are often down to poorly molded traction tires which is an easy fix, wheel wobble is almost always down to miss-molded insulation between wheel and axle. Electrical problems by poor (cheap) design/specification are a complete different ball game, its got to the point where I won't let people test run Dapol locos on the club layout at exhibitions anymore from the failures I've been blamed for. Some of their rolling stock is great (I have a bone of contention with the weedy plastic buffers on the Gresley coaches), but the locos are far too hit and miss for me.

Like others here I generally buy what I want, whoever makes it.  On steam lcos I deeply regret Dapol's incursion into silver grey wheels when earlier models were fine.  And their shaft between tender and loco is a turn off for me; from appearance and ease of replacing viewpoints.  I bought 2 Farish B1s partly for that reason.  I won't replace my A4 and A3 for that reason.  And I will carry on with my minitrix 9F.  My Dapol Brit runs fine but replacing that shaft is a pain.  When you swap locos around at home a lot, and take stock to exhibitions, ease of handling is very important.

I almost wish I had not bought a Farish Voyager because their infuriating coupling system is inferior to Dapol's magnetic system.  My Dapol 221 is fine.

I have diesels from both sources and have no general preference.

I may be lucky but have not had any lemon yet from either source.

Union Mills locos are basic by modern standards but they are robust, reliable, pull well and frankly at normal viewing distances look fine.  Again for regular handling solidity is important.

I perceive Farish to be better than Dapol but it's not really based on personal experience, I've only had one Dapol dud which was exchanged for a very good runner.

I just remember all the posts about the dodgy Dapol A3s and A4s and they make me a bit wary when buying them.

Also Farish locos seem to be a bit sturdier and I think they may last longer than Dapol ones. I do love my Terriers though.

Regards

Veronica.

All six of my Dapol locos (diesels and electrics) so far have been entirely problem free and brilliant runners.  Yes, they do sound like a nest of angry tie-fighters, but that's just <insert deity of choice>'s way of telling you your hi-fi isn't turned up loud enough 8)

But will my first Dapol steamer be as kind to me? :-\

Sadly I can see this thread heading only one way... Unforunately there are a vocal minority of N gauge modellers who ARE heavily biassed one way or the other and refuse to see that there are good and bad in both ranges...

You can usually spot them because of the outlandish claims made such as the 'expert' who once declared the Farish 9F to be "far superior to the Dapol effort" and another who illustated his argument for Dapol Coaches with a photo of a Minitrix Gresley! ::)

PLD your post had about 4-5 grammar and spelling mistakes, but I get your point.
People who support one or other make will do just that and condemn the other
make, it's rather like football fans arguing about a referee's decision . Fergie would
support it and Wenger would oppose it because of their clubs'  interests. In the end
it matters not a jot.

Union Mills for me. I model SR, c.1945 so not a lot of choice really (roll on the Farish N Class ).

Currently I have Drummond and Adams 0-6-0s, 2 x T9s and a 2P ( scheduled for conversion to a D Class ), all from Union Mills. I also have an M7, Q1and Terrier from Dapol.

Detail wise Dapol is better, but from normal operating and viwing distances, that isn't too obvious. When it comes to running, Union Mills wins hands down both for slow running and pulling power ...and after a couple of years they still seem pretty bullett-proof.

The only loco in my experience that came close to Union Mills was the old Peco Jubilee .. But that could start another discussion so lets not go there!

But despite the general non-preference for either brand being expressed in the text Dapol is losing big time in the votes. This can really only be down to poor quality of say one Dapol product per voter putting people off when it comes to voting time. Since I got a brand new Dapol Hall from Hattons with no drive shaft and no spare drive shaft I should be down on Dapol. But I'm not.

So why haven't as many people favoured Dapol as favoured Farish ?

Quote from: ParkeNd on December 31, 2013, 07:49:11 PM
But despite the general non-preference for either brand being expressed in the text Dapol is losing big time in the votes.

But combining the two neuteral options 'No Preference' and 'Neither' then they are currently ahead so the moderates have it...

I don't have a preference either way, maybe I have been fortunate as I have not had a faulty locomotive from either source. I must add the new 2MT from Farish is really good, for the sake of balance (well I did vote no preference) the Dapol Panniers are good as well.

From me. Its farish for steam.  If farish keep up with the quality the 2mt and J39 are then its a step in  the right direction.  Dapol do look good but the drive shaft and noisey gears are a down side. Diesel wise I can't say much as I only own three all farish.

Oh fun!

Not much between them - So many points for and against each - judge each model for its own merits. Mechanism wise - Farish multiple split gears, dapol poor motors &wiring. Thinking outside the box - trix - odd motor failure (spectacular comm fires) otherwise still going after 30+years. And before you mention the look of trix remember lima - looked bad and ran even worse.....

Happy new year!

Regards
Russ

Quote from: PLD on December 31, 2013, 08:20:28 PM

Quote from: ParkeNd on December 31, 2013, 07:49:11 PM
But despite the general non-preference for either brand being expressed in the text Dapol is losing big time in the votes.

But combining the two neuteral options 'No Preference' and 'Neither' then they are currently ahead so the moderates have it...

But as my economics teacher about 30 years ago said, statistics is common sense made difficult!

The way I read this: -

-Very few people actually prefer Dapol.

- Although a sizeable number actually have no preference.

- Numerically the majority of voters who expressed a preference clearly favour BachFarish.

Roy

BobB has redressed the balance a bit. But --------------

Whilst the text replies indicate mostly that it doesn't matter the outspoken Farish fans have put it well ahead of the outspoken Dapaol fans.

I find it odd that 477 people have looked at the thread (or probably that the thread has been looked at 477 times) and yet only 6 people have voted "Dapol does it for me".

Dapol seems to be suffering.

Hi ParkeNd

Given my experience I'm rather surprised at the poll results as well.

In the past, I'm told by my friendly local retailer that Dapol had loads of problems but that he thought this was with OO size. In that size of model I think Hornby have gone through a similar reputation but have emerged with an improving image. It will be interesting to see how the yet to be released Arnold Brighton Bell's quality is judged.

I wish Union Mills had a more extensive range that included some diesels because I think it's possible for both Dapol and Farish to get better. A 3rd and 4th manufacturer is what we need !

BobB

Quote from: ParkeNd on January 01, 2014, 12:35:39 PM

I find it odd that 477 people have looked at the thread (or probably that the thread has been looked at 477 times) and yet only 6 people have voted "Dapol does it for me".

Dapol seems to be suffering.

I don't think the thread being looked at 477 times has a great deal of relevance :no:
With a potential to it being volatile I have looked at it several times with my Mods hat on but have no interest in being drawn into it as I don't think there is much point, my modus operandi being "whoever makes what I want gets my money".
As such, I haven't voted either

I think that Dapol suffer more from bad press than Farish.

For example, I really wanted to buy the Dapol A3. However, I was put off by comments/photos about the butchered buffer beam, and the unsightly seam on the dome, so I decided to buy the forthcoming Farish Peppercorn pacific instead.

I did however buy a Dapol B17 to tide me over, which looks great and runs great, although the paint finish is more "toy like" than that of my Farish locos.

I was tempted by the Dapol 9F and Britannia. What put me off was the slide bars, which look like they've been made from recycled paper clips.

Best regards,


Joe

Quote from: joe cassidy on January 01, 2014, 08:56:40 PM
I was tempted by the Dapol 9F and Britannia. What put me off was the slide bars, which look like they've been made from recycled paper clips.

Give it a go, I have one of each and they are nice models. I bought one of the second batch of Brits which had all the motions and the screws the same colour. Then I painted the wheels black as per the prototype and it looks rather spiffy.

http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=7800.msg102147#msg102147 (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=7800.msg102147#msg102147)

Quote from: newportnobby on January 01, 2014, 08:34:44 PM
I don't think the thread being looked at 477 times has a great deal of relevance :no:
With a potential to it being volatile I have looked at it several times with my Mods hat on but have no interest in being drawn into it as I don't think there is much point, my modus operandi being "whoever makes what I want gets my money".
As such, I haven't voted either

I have voted, but again being in Mod-mode I've probably looked at this thread over a dozen times, every time it comes up in the "Unread Posts" list in fact ;)


Paul

I've always been slightly bemused by the very vocal anti-Dapol posts on various forums.

For example, I have a Farish 37/0 which runs beautifully, and a Dapol Class 22 which runs a bit rough. But then I also have a Farish Warship that runs a bit rough, and my best runner by far is a Dapol 121 (which I've hacked about, even!)

Dapol back-to-backs are far more accurate and consistent out of the box, but for the odd one that isn't then adjusting them is a nightmare. Farish wheels tend to be complete crap (I've measured over +/-0.5mm out of B2B) but are easy to adjust.

I do however wish that Farish would wake up and realise that NEM couplings really are a good thing and would fit them to their wagons consistently. I mean, I'm sure that Dapol appreciate the extra income from all those NEM conversion kits they're selling, but seriously Farish have no excuse at all and it's actually quite tiresome to adopt all those Farish short wheelbase wagons for no good reason.

I tend to prefer dapol. For slow running, but it seems that dapol are ridiculously slow at distributing there models. For example, they promised the class 121 in br green livery, but it never arrived, or at least not at the big sellers. However, dapol and farish do need to listen to the modellers and produce what many want, like the bayergarrett ( don't know how you spell it) or the virgin pendilino!

ATM, there is no clear winner for me, but dapol are slightly ahead for smooth running!

Daft thread anyway but does seem that Farish are leading by a considerable margin.  Unless you are a politician and count the middle vote as either way you choose.  The "neither" posts are throw away / discountable against the thread title.

...who was it that asked the reason either way?  Have you not read the posts man!

Quote from: Woolleysh33p on January 02, 2014, 12:21:15 AM
I tend to prefer dapol. For slow running, but it seems that dapol are ridiculously slow at distributing there models. For example, they promised the class 121 in br green livery, but it never arrived, or at least not at the big sellers. However, dapol and farish do need to listen to the modellers and produce what many want, like the bayergarrett ( don't know how you spell it) or the virgin pendilino!

ATM, there is no clear winner for me, but dapol are slightly ahead for smooth running!

A vocal minority say they "want" such models but I am not sure that sufficient people would buy either a Beyer Garratt or a Pendolino to justify the tooling costs for a major manufacturer (They would need to sell thousands). 

As to smooth/slow running, in terms of British steam anyway there is nothing to touch the recent generation of coreless motor loco-drive Farish and their tender driven stuff isn't that far behind. I think my Dapol A3 is lovely and it runs fine but by comparison it is very noisy with lots of "buzz" and "cogging" from the motor when it creeps.

Roy

Well I'd definitely buy a Pendolino and the Pendolino also came top in the NGF most wanted EMU in our polls :D

Would rather it came from Kato, Arnold or Fleischmann through :D.

I want to like Dapol, in fact I do like the company.  Nearly everyone I have dealt with from Dapol has been polite, helpful and a pleasure to deal with.  It has to be said that innovations such as the light bars, working semaphore signals and easy shunt magnetic couplings must also be counted in its favour.

I'm not sure how to vote, I have been disappointed by some Graham Farish models just as I have been with Dapol models.  Equally, I have been delighted by some models from both companies.

Quote from: Vanders on January 02, 2014, 12:07:53 AM
Dapol back-to-backs are far more accurate and consistent out of the box, but for the odd one that isn't then adjusting them is a nightmare. Farish wheels tend to be complete crap (I've measured over +/-0.5mm out of B2B) but are easy to adjust.

Funny, I've found the opposite, the only stuff with incorrect B2B measurements are my Dapol Siphons.  Not enough to derail but enough to make them wobble through points as the wheels ride up on the check rails.  When checked with Dapol's own back-to-back gauge the wheels are clearly too close together but any attempt to adjust them means they foul the bogie frames.

Quote from: Vanders on January 02, 2014, 12:07:53 AM
I do however wish that Farish would wake up and realise that NEM couplings really are a good thing and would fit them to their wagons consistently. I mean, I'm sure that Dapol appreciate the extra income from all those NEM conversion kits they're selling, but seriously Farish have no excuse at all and it's actually quite tiresome to adopt all those Farish short wheelbase wagons for no good reason.

I agree, although Dapol hasn't quite made NEM pockets universal; the tooling of the Collett coaches was modified to allow for the fitting of light bars but not adapted to include NEM pockets at the same time.  It must be possible, the siphons and GWR Auto Coach now permit interchangeable couplings, although in the case of the former the couplings now stick out quite a long way.

Quote from: Pengi on January 02, 2014, 08:16:05 AM
Well I'd definitely buy a Pendolino and the Pendolino also came top in the NGF most wanted EMU in our polls :D

Would rather it came from Kato, Arnold or Fleischmann through :D.

Wouldn't we all like a British model from one of those!

I think Dave Jones then of Dapol said "no" to a producing Pendolino on grounds of cost v's potentail return, and in reality I suspect the Market for a dedicated WCML EMU (However nice) would be limited and certainly not run to the 3 or 4,000 units it would need to make it viable.

The NGF "Most Wanted" poll is a useful barometer but in reality the vote was a very small %age of NGF members, itself a small %age of British N modellers, and without wishing to be controversial I think the cross-section of modelling interests represented on here is more weighted towards M/I and DCC etc than the British N community as a whole so maybe not wholly representative.

Regards

Roy

Quote from: Pengi on January 02, 2014, 08:16:05 AM
Well I'd definitely buy a Pendolino and the Pendolino also came top in the NGF most wanted EMU in our polls :D

Would rather it came from Kato, Arnold or Fleischmann through :D.

I'd definitely have quite a few Pendos, but not from Kato/Arnold etc unless to 1:148 (or 1:152!)!

The thing with the Pendolinos is not that you will sell huge amounts of them to enthusiasts, but (as Hornby have always realised) they are the most iconic top line train of the current era (and for the last 10+ years!) and therefore appeal to kids and new entrants.  The perfect opportunity for a starter set of a short rake + controller + track. The number of times kids see a Virgin Voyager and mistake it for a Pendolino when we are operating Stoney Lane Depot is quite astonishing!

Cheers, Mike

Quote from: red_death on January 02, 2014, 10:00:35 AM

Quote from: Pengi on January 02, 2014, 08:16:05 AM
Well I'd definitely buy a Pendolino and the Pendolino also came top in the NGF most wanted EMU in our polls :D

Would rather it came from Kato, Arnold or Fleischmann through :D.

I'd definitely have quite a few Pendos, but not from Kato/Arnold etc unless to 1:148 (or 1:152!)!

The thing with the Pendolinos is not that you will sell huge amounts of them to enthusiasts, but (as Hornby have always realised) they are the most iconic top line train of the current era (and for the last 10+ years!) and therefore appeal to kids and new entrants.  The perfect opportunity for a starter set of a short rake + controller + track. The number of times kids see a Virgin Voyager and mistake it for a Pendolino when we are operating Stoney Lane Depot is quite astonishing!

Cheers, Mike

Hi Mike

I see your point and potentially see that sales could exist there, but that is likely to be influenced by the price-point for a set and that in turn could dictate the nature of the product in terms of detail/quality for the "modeller".

In reality I think both Dapol and Farish are geared more towards the "modeller" market.

Regards

Roy

I haven't actually voted because I only have one Dapol loco and a sample of one is not valid. I model Era 5 and it's a factory weathered 9F which I think looks great, but it is much more temperamental about negotiating points than my Farish locos; it's noisier and when it came to fitting a decoder there was no clue from Dapol about what would fit. I tried several that didn't and in the end talked to the guys at Digitrains who reckoned the CT Elektronik 6 pin was the only chip that would fit. Sure enough it does, but I would have hoped for more help from the manufacturer over the choice of decoder. I guess that sounds like I should have voted Farish, but, despite my comments, I like the 9F and I'm not averse to buying more Dapol.

Ian 

The pendoleanto has a wide range of different vehicles which in plastic means different mouldings. It's not just a demand question but also a cost question. Likeiwse a garratt is a lot of mouldings and two chassis so you've now got to sell several thousand models at what - £200+ ?

The Blue Pullman in comparison is a lot of work but its basically two 3 car units back to back from a production perspective.

Alan

Quote from: Pengi on January 02, 2014, 08:16:05 AM
Well I'd definitely buy a Pendolino and the Pendolino also came top in the NGF most wanted EMU in our polls :D

Me too!  And possibly three!

This is a model where I think we shoot ourselves in the foot by being too exacting.  I would be quite happy with a driving car and a generic coach with an alternative pan/non-pan roof.  I would have to study the original to know the differences between the coaches anyway, and hard to spot when it is doing 100mph plus.

Result of exacting standards = no model will ever appear!

Heresy they cry.....burn him!!!!!!!   :sorrysign:

Cheers  Jon   :)

David (http://www.modernimagemodels.co.uk/ (http://www.modernimagemodels.co.uk/)) was talking about doing the Pendolino. He made a few sets available some time ago when he did the original build.

Quote from: PostModN66 on January 02, 2014, 02:50:23 PM
This is a model where I think we shoot ourselves in the foot by being too exacting.  I would be quite happy with a driving car and a generic coach with an alternative pan/non-pan roof.  I would have to study the original to know the differences between the coaches anyway, and hard to spot when it is doing 100mph plus.

Result of exacting standards = no model will ever appear!

By that argument just use a Virgin Voyager with extra coaches :uneasy:

I'm sure we have done this before, but how many different body types are there on a Pendolino (forget the interiors)? You have the 2 driving cars, 2 pantograph cars and then trailers with different window arrangements (incl toilet). So you essentially need 3 different shells (or 2 shells and 2 different roofs) and then the window inserts to be tooled as different slides (if injection moulded).

That is not significantly more demanding than what you suggest, yet still gets you accurate coaches.

Cheers, Mike

Quote from: red_death on January 02, 2014, 03:16:31 PM

By that argument just use a Virgin Voyager with extra coaches :uneasy:

A question of degree I guess.  to my eyes the differences between the driving ends of the two trains are much more obvious than the differences between the coaches (within each train) and much more important in defining the character of the train.  I wouldn't be happy with the level of compromise that you are (presumable humourously) suggesting.

Reductio ad absurdam - if all models had to have 100% scale fidelity, we wouldn't have any at all. It's just about where you set the bar, for me, if it means no model available then it is too high.

Cheers   jon   :)

Quote from: Ian McShane on January 02, 2014, 02:19:43 PM
I haven't actually voted because I only have one Dapol loco and a sample of one is not valid. I model Era 5 and it's a factory weathered 9F which I think looks great, but it is much more temperamental about negotiating points than my Farish locos

Try loosening the screw that holds the pony truck in place by a quarter of a turn. It should help it steer into points more co-operatively.

I am also one of those who hasn't voted.

Most will go for which ever company produces the model they are after as has been said, but also folk may avoid either company if they have had bad experiences with their products. For example if someone has bought several locos from one and had problems, regardless of how large or small, they may favour the other.

It may also be a case where someone prefers rolling stock from one but locos from the other.

That's my two penance worth away.

I think that  tbh that both makes are becoming too expensive . and whilst their are a number of reasons why . I as a 17 year old have a very slim budget to use , would rather see that farish use some of their older molds to bring out some budget stock , much like hornby railroad . i would spend £45-50 on an older farish 47 that looks like one and runs well . but that is me .  :sorrysign: 

Quote from: beestie on January 02, 2014, 07:21:57 PM
I think that  tbh that both makes are becoming too expensive . and whilst their are a number of reasons why . I as a 17 year old have a very slim budget to use , would rather see that farish use some of their older molds to bring out some budget stock , much like hornby railroad . i would spend £45-50 on an older farish 47 that looks like one and runs well . but that is me .  :sorrysign:

It is a small market - and there are lots of second hand old 47s available. Prices are going to go up and it may be a bit more like it was in older times where you had to save a long time for a loco. I saved a year for a Hornby Hymek !

Alan (dons the old fart hat)

Quote from: EtchedPixels on January 02, 2014, 08:35:00 PM


It is a small market - and there are lots of second hand old 47s available. Prices are going to go up and it may be a bit more like it was in older times where you had to save a long time for a loco. I saved a year for a Hornby Hymek !

very true , but the point i was really trying to to make was . that i have saved in the past , for a couple of locos from both makes and both ran like a bag of nails , however both were steam locos , but also does anyone else think that because its n gauge ,second hand seems to be more than , oo gauge secondhand ?  but yes Alan , i do agree with you . 

Quote from: beestie on January 02, 2014, 08:52:38 PMbecause its n gauge ,second hand seems to be more than , oo gauge secondhand ?  but yes Alan , i do agree with you .

I've always been baffled by the way old second hand N holds its value. Not that I'm complaining as I unload it onto ebay! Some things I can understand - because people collect them or there isn't a modern version. With a lot of the stuff that has modern equivalents it does seem way overpriced to me.

I do think todays expectations have changed though and may well end up going back the other direction. In the 1970s many people modelled small branch lines because they couldn't afford more rolling stock. The giant fiddle yard and discussions about 'can I do 16 track multi-level fiddle yards' didn't happen that often!

Alan

I agree with you EP about second hand gear being bought for crazy prices. My logic now is if you have to pay that much for old stuff then you might as well pay the bit more for a new item that has the new features.

As to the purpose of this post, I do not have allegiance to a single brand but as others state it's what model is desirable.

Coming back into model railways after so many years away it did surprise me the duplication of effort on the 9f's in N and 10000's in OO. I am all for secrecy and competition between companies, but those two examples won no points for either company.

As was mentioned earlier if it was viable to run the original models as a 'Railroad' range then both ends of the market might be covered.
I believe that there was a magazine article recently that suggested that as we don't want to pay top money for our models then we are further back in the production runs. This has always been like other hobbies an expensive one, but we all have our benchmark as to what we think items are worth.

 :ngfemailsign: I haven't voted yet, I'm in both courts. I've got locos wagons and coaches from both teams, and they all have their good points and their bad points.

Look at the detail on the 66, the Farish one is quite fine whereas the Dapol one has telegraph poles for handrails. The Dapol Mk3s are great in my mind, the Farish ones a bit outdated.

Dapol have innovated with NEMs, whereas Farish are playing catchup.

I buy the models I like whoever produces them.

Cheers, Timmo

This is a very interesting discussion. I can understand comments by EP about saving for a Hymek back then, and also young modellers such as Beestie operating on a tight budget.

Addressing this thread, personally I have no preference between the two firms. The models these days are such an improvement over those I cut my N gauge teeth on, I am humming and haaaring about bundling all my old stuff onto eBay and buying new stock.

Quote from: Bealman on January 04, 2014, 05:59:06 AM
This is a very interesting discussion. I can understand comments by EP about saving for a Hymek back then, and also young modellers such as Beestie operating on a tight budget.

Addressing this thread, personally I have no preference between the two firms. The models these days are such an improvement over those I cut my N gauge teeth on, I am humming and haaaring about bundling all my old stuff onto eBay and buying new stock.

I concur George - a very interesting discussion and I agree with almost all the observations expressed throughout the thread. The difference in quality of current RTR models compared to my previous experience in the late 70’s / early 80’s is stunning.

I think we are very lucky to have two manufacturers competing for our hard earned pounds (or dollars in my case). Competition has clearly raised the bar in terms of quality, detail, reliability or indeed any other parameter.

So as long as the models keep getting better, whether it be the Farish WD 2-8-0 or the Dapol Class 22 or 52, I for one will remain happy whether a new model is from Farish or Dapol.

Quote from: Parky on January 03, 2014, 07:21:10 PM
Coming back into model railways after so many years away it did surprise me the duplication of effort on the 9f's in N and 10000's in OO. I am all for secrecy and competition between companies, but those two examples won no points for either company.

I don't know, I wish we'd have more direct competition, not less. Competition drives up standards and produces innovation; look at how stagnant the N gauge market was in the late 80's & early 90's when Graham Farish had it all to themselves. Perhaps if Dapol or another manufacturer was also producing 12 ton ventilated vans (for example), Bachmann might be more keen to include things like NEM coupling pockets on theirs?

In reality the market is too small to support that sort of competition for very long, but it does seem to work a bit better in the OO market, it being larger.

I agree about the competition driving standards up, and have often wished that Heljan would use the shrink ray on some of their stuff :drool:

Peco aren't exactly stiff competition but if they were, I wonder if that'd encourage Dapol or Graham Farish to up their game further?
Regardless, both of the big two are currently both making amazingly detailed models at a fair price.

Quote from: Chetcombe on January 04, 2014, 06:38:28 AM

Quote from: Bealman on January 04, 2014, 05:59:06 AM
This is a very interesting discussion. I can understand comments by EP about saving for a Hymek back then, and also young modellers such as Beestie operating on a tight budget.

Addressing this thread, personally I have no preference between the two firms. The models these days are such an improvement over those I cut my N gauge teeth on, I am humming and haaaring about bundling all my old stuff onto eBay and buying new stock.

I concur George - a very interesting discussion and I agree with almost all the observations expressed throughout the thread. The difference in quality of current RTR models compared to my previous experience in the late 70’s / early 80’s is stunning.

I think we are very lucky to have two manufacturers competing for our hard earned pounds (or dollars in my case). Competition has clearly raised the bar in terms of quality, detail, reliability or indeed any other parameter.

So as long as the models keep getting better, whether it be the Farish WD 2-8-0 or the Dapol Class 22 or 52, I for one will remain happy whether a new model is from Farish or Dapol.

I have to agree with the above comments, although both Farish & Dapol have their faults they have superb detail on the latest stuff & we have a huge variety of locos & rolling stock compared to what we had available 20-25 years ago  :thumbsup:
cheers, Stu.

Thanks, Mike and Stu! You survived Colorado, then Mike.  :thumbsup:

George

Quote from: newportnobby on January 04, 2014, 01:31:55 PM
I agree about the competition driving standards up, and have often wished that Heljan would use the shrink ray on some of their stuff :drool:

Minitrix returning with British outline but with proper British chassis might raise the bar on the quality front - but probably the price front too. German built consistency rather than outsourced to China along with Christmas decorations and plastic novelties. Something up to VW or Audi quality standards.   

Locos bristling with detail are fine for those with magnifying glasses - but consistent 100% right first time running quality could do with coming to Toytown but in a wider regional spread than Union Mills.

Interesting thread, I hadn't voted until this morning - decided to vote after my Dapol Panniers started to hiccup their way around my layout yesterday afternoon - details in separate thread…

I was considering my experiences of the products from the two main manufacturers…

I have predominantly Dapol locos as I tend towards GWR 30's period and Dapol have produced quite a few that suit my preferred era here's a summary of my experience.

Dapol Hall - both run nicely out of the box although still need to paint/weather nasty silver wheels on Leighton Hall (why did they do that?)

Dapol 2-8-0 both run very well indeed out of the box

Dapol 45xx/55xx needed a lot of tweaking to get consistent running, slow running is not very good, probably down to early mechanism/motor combo.

Dapol Pannier - needed lots on running in and now developing surging problem - one stalled last night on medium power - probably on its last legs…

Dapol terriers - despite much tweaking of pickup and wipers still stall over points (electrofrog, switching polarity) I know lots of you like em- but my two are irritating

Dapol 14xx run nicely but only ever pull an auto coach, 1472 better than 1425, both need a warm up after they've stood for a while but good slow runners and negotiate points well.

Dapol A4 - arrived needing much fettling to Cartassi and front pony to get it around my layout, runs well now but still noisy and I worry about its longevity

Dapol b17 - runs very nicely but a little noisy

Dapol M7 runs OK but useless haulage power and needed a lot of fiddling

Ixion Manor - motor replaced due to high current draw - runs nicely but still a little noisy even at five years old.

Farish GWR railcar - just back from a service from Bob Russell - running on DCC very nice indeed, seems good for another 20 years

Farish Jubillee - not a strong puller but good consistent running out of the box

Farish panniers - dodgy running over points - never converted to DCC but included for balance (now sold and replaced by the new Dapol pups)

Farish 108 DMU super runner now fitted with Zimo 648 sound chip -
Farish DP1 - absolutely superb (although looks a little odd on the branch line with a rake of 8-coaches)
Farish j39 - (1856) great straight out of box - virtually silent
Farish 2mt - (LMS 6404) great (as J39)

Peco Collett - really great loco - no wonder they cost a bomb new and still expensive - if you can find one ….

Finally - Dapol Class 22 diesel - superb now its run in. - wants to be for the price mind!!!

I know its a eclectic collection (rule 1 applies). On reflection it looks like the Bachmann/Farish products run better out of the box, I got rid of my old Farish stuff which to be fair probably was of similar dodgy quality as the early Dapol steamers.

I do think Dapol need to tighten up on their QC issues, although it looks like some members have had problems with the BachFar stuff maybe I've been lucky. I like the looks of the Dapol models but often they are let down by their running, I was prepared to deal with this by working on the locos to get the best of them however my two Dapol panniers have developed problems and I worry about the noisy running from some of the other locos described above.

Maybe I should go diesel - they seem to run much better, although the latest BF steamers don't seem to have any issues.

Sorry if the post is a bit long :worried:

^^^^ Modern short diesels on good track run like a dream - Farish Class 24 are the top of the pile in my short experience though Dapol Class 22 comes close  - and there's Dapol Class 26 and the bargain £49 Farish Class 25/3. All great RUNNERS. Oh do stop me!!

My experience with Dapol locos is limited to just 2 of their B1's, amazingly detailed, aside from the positive screws holding the motion onto the driving wheels. I still think the card an shaft drive through the cab is a tad crude compared to the latest Farish kettles. They run well but the motors are noisy, and the bogies don't like small radius points/curves one bit! Nice touch that the bogie axles are so easy to remove though, as I had to swap them around on both of my B1's to stop them derailing at the drop of a hat...

On the flip side, I've had almost no problems with my Farish locos, as they've all been a doddle to maintain and run, aside from some of the older locos not liking insulfrog points. The main downers with the Farish stuff is drooping sprung couplings and the slightly crappy detailing on the older models, way under scale bogie wheels, pizza cutter flanges and lack of cab glazing...

Chris

Quote from: ParkeNd on January 05, 2014, 09:27:09 AM
Something up to VW or Audi quality standards.

I wouldn't go using VW as a quality benchmark ;) May have been a few years ago but hearing some of the horror stories from a professional mechanic friend of mine they seem to have gone WAY down, same with Mercedes. :no:

Haven't heard too many bad quality comments about Audi yet though :)


Paul

Quote from: ParkeNd on January 05, 2014, 09:58:50 AM
^^^^ Modern short diesels on good track run like a dream - Farish Class 24 are the top of the pile in my short experience though Dapol Class 22 comes close  - and there's Dapol Class 26 and the bargain £49 Farish Class 25/3. All great RUNNERS. Oh do stop me!!

One of the first 'new' Farish locos I acquired was a Class 24, and it grinds gears something horrible at speed. I think that quality control is still a bit haphazard with both companies.

But, I stick by my original premise that ALL the new offerings, steam, diesel or electric, are STREETS ahead of anything British N gaugers had to put up with in years gone by.

Quote from: shandy on January 05, 2014, 09:32:28 AM
Dapol Pannier - needed lots on running in and now developing surging problem - one stalled last night on medium power - probably on its last legs…

This may be pickups. I've had real problems with the pickups on mine, factory lubricant ingress into the areas between the bearings and the chassis frames. I've stripped 2 down now and cleaned out, refitted the bearings tightly in the chassis and re-run in and this has improved their performance a lot.

Cheers,
Alan

Quote from: Sprintex on January 05, 2014, 11:37:31 AM

Quote from: ParkeNd on January 05, 2014, 09:27:09 AM
Something up to VW or Audi quality standards.

I wouldn't go using VW as a quality benchmark ;) May have been a few years ago but hearing some of the horror stories from a professional mechanic friend of mine they seem to have gone WAY down, same with Mercedes. :no:

Haven't heard too many bad quality comments about Audi yet though :)


Paul

May just be the difference between hearing about old ones and currently owning the second new one Paul.

Three year old VWs with chassis rails full of water as just one example? ;)


Paul

Interesting as this is (and I have a VW car  :help:), this is taking us  :offtopicsign:

Quote from: beestie on January 02, 2014, 07:21:57 PM
I think that  tbh that both makes are becoming too expensive . and whilst their are a number of reasons why . I as a 17 year old have a very slim budget to use , would rather see that farish use some of their older molds to bring out some budget stock , much like hornby railroad . i would spend £45-50 on an older farish 47 that looks like one and runs well . but that is me .  :sorrysign:

I believe this has been discussed previously.

While I do understand how this might help those on tighter budgets, I doubt they could actually produce the "old" models significantly cheaper than the new,  the recent heavy discounting of the older models (Like Class 25) by some retailers should not necessarily be taken as an expectation of this.

For example the old Class 25 is still listed at Bachmann for £94.05 and the new yet to be released ones will be £99.95 (£10 more if weathered). I suspect production and assembly costs would be little different between old and new and shipping etc identical.

Probably also true to say that for a while we were spoiled by relatively cheap prices (in real terms copmpared to previously)and being able to buy more.

Like Alan I can remember a time when a new loco was more of an annual happening and something I had to save for!

Roy



The volumes involved and limited production runs and if you compare

A year or so ago I would unhesitatingly have voted Dapol as I had a string of poor farish locos one after the other.  Nowadays it is "equal" or "neither" as the WD has done a lot to restore my confidence.  Some comments on recent loco purchases.

Dapol
A3s (now seven in service with an eighth coming) Only one problem- a valve gear bounced and broken in transit- no problem getting it fixed.  The two I have fitted chips into run beautifully.  Only comment is that the chimney didn't come off too well so the single-double conversion I did had to have a whitemetal chimney which is a little anaemic.
A4s (two), both run beautifully, both now chipped. 
B1s (three) again, all run well.  One had a circuit-board transplant from an NQP after getting a little smelly.  Two now DCC fitted and running smoothly and quietly.
Pannier (one) rods on one side upside down.  Runs OK analogue but too lumpy on DCC so now analogue again- as is my Farish 4MT for the same reason.
Bo-Bo diesels (two) one good and one which failed spectacularly at Wigan show pouring smoke out of the cab to entertain an good number of punters.  Now fixed under warranty.
Of the older locos B17s are running well, but two out of four 9Fs don't like my fiddle yard despite all having centring springs.

Farish
3MT tanks (2) one sheared the front pony mount in a low speed derailment and went for a replacement to BR Lines.  The other needs to go as it is now totally dead.
2MT runs beautifully but has the same problems with my fiddle yard (and that of Rise Park) as the 9Fs, so now runs tender first at all times.
Bo-Bo diesels (three) no problems with any of them.
Co-Co diesels (two)- one blew a decoder- on investigating there was stray solder on the underside of the PCB by the 6-pin socket.
WDs (two) One fine in all respects.  The other one also blew a decoder with exactly the same problem as the Class 37.  This one is also apparently down at the front (either that or Farish modelled it with a taper boiler).
J39- apart from needing renumbering as the Farish model never had a late crest loco is excellent in all respects.  My best tender-drive Farish by a large margin.
DMUs (three) all run well but when I tried to take the body off the Class 101 for chipping the glazing had been glued to the chassis more firmly than to the body.  A Bachmann empolyee on their stand showed me how to get the body off without breaking too much of the glazing- this fault apparently isn't that uncommon.....
D9555 (one) developing a wobble but still runs well.

I'm expecting another A3 (with sound) and a Bittern from Dapol and an A2 and Fairburn from Farish, so honours even there.   

No doubt others have different experiences to recount.

I will say, however, that the TOTAL sales of N-gauge locos of any UK type aren't big enough to iron-out random statistical variations.  One over-tired assembler on a production run can muck up a high percentage of any batch of either manufacturer.......

All the very best
les

A very well balanced and informative reply, thanks for posting Les, most interesting reading.  :thumbsup:

Yep, agree. Very informative. Thanks, Les!  :thumbsup:

Just to add to that - I am also impressed with your conclusion in the last paragraph. I'd never thought of that... but it sounds feasible to me!  :thumbsup:

Quote from: Les1952 on January 07, 2014, 09:06:40 PM
I will say, however, that the TOTAL sales of N-gauge locos of any UK type aren't big enough to iron-out random statistical variations.  One over-tired assembler on a production run can muck up a high percentage of any batch of either manufacturer.......

Maybe, but we're paying them to do it correctly....

Cheers,
Alan

Quote from: Dr Al on January 08, 2014, 08:55:08 AM

Quote from: Les1952 on January 07, 2014, 09:06:40 PM
I will say, however, that the TOTAL sales of N-gauge locos of any UK type aren't big enough to iron-out random statistical variations.  One over-tired assembler on a production run can muck up a high percentage of any batch of either manufacturer.......

Maybe, but we're paying them to do it correctly....

Cheers,
Alan

Couldn't agree more. Shipping quantities and the quantities made in one production run may be quite different. "Batch of 1" is becoming quite prevalent in manufacturing because you can make a much wider range of products within a day. Long setup times can be engineered out and work measurements like "efficiency" are now seen to be worthless - it's not smart to make more than anyone needs and this just ramps up leadtimes beyond belief.

So maintaining quality needs only to be over say 10 units before errors or badly fitting components are flagged up by the operator. And this is all about instilling a quality ethos in the workforce in every department. Even getting the parts to the lines on time so that manufacturing isn't tempted to build "derelicts" that they forget to retrofit - like my Dapol Hall with no drive shaft.

Moving production around from one cheap economy to another is real enemy of quality.

We deserve no less in 2014 than being able to get the product out of the box and for it to work first time every time.

I was watching a DVD about steam trains in Lancashire and Yorkshire yesterday evening and was remembering the adverse comments about grey locomotive wheels on Dapol steamers. The wheels definitely looked more mid to dark grey than black on most of the locomotives so maybe Dapol were right and the modellers are wrong ?

Of course this will not influence the running characteristics.

Quote from: BobB on January 08, 2014, 09:59:19 AM
I was watching a DVD about steam trains in Lancashire and Yorkshire yesterday evening and was remembering the adverse comments about grey locomotive wheels on Dapol steamers. The wheels definitely looked more mid to dark grey than black on most of the locomotives so maybe Dapol were right and the modellers are wrong ?

No, Dapol were wrong. The wheels were painted black - if dirt or lighting conditions made them look different then so be it - but I'd rather replicate that with appropriate weathering.

Cheers,
Alan

Quote from: ParkeNd on January 08, 2014, 09:51:23 AM

Quote from: Dr Al on January 08, 2014, 08:55:08 AM

Quote from: Les1952 on January 07, 2014, 09:06:40 PM
I will say, however, that the TOTAL sales of N-gauge locos of any UK type aren't big enough to iron-out random statistical variations.  One over-tired assembler on a production run can muck up a high percentage of any batch of either manufacturer.......

Maybe, but we're paying them to do it correctly....

Cheers,
Alan

Couldn't agree more. Shipping quantities and the quantities made in one production run may be quite different. "Batch of 1" is becoming quite prevalent in manufacturing because you can make a much wider range of products within a day. Long setup times can be engineered out and work measurements like "efficiency" are now seen to be worthless - it's not smart to make more than anyone needs and this just ramps up leadtimes beyond belief.

So maintaining quality needs only to be over say 10 units before errors or badly fitting components are flagged up by the operator. And this is all about instilling a quality ethos in the workforce in every department. Even getting the parts to the lines on time so that manufacturing isn't tempted to build "derelicts" that they forget to retrofit - like my Dapol Hall with no drive shaft.

Moving production around from one cheap economy to another is real enemy of quality.

We deserve no less in 2014 than being able to get the product out of the box and for it to work first time every time.

Sometimes I don't believe I'm reading this stuff. We are playing trains, and if any contributor to this forum can do better, perhaps they can start up their own business and try themselves.

I know I wouldn't even think about it (nor do I have the resources to do so).... BUT - there are folk on here who are established NGS foundation members, and small industries catering for N gauge modellers also advertise their own products here.

Negative comments like the above don't get this hobby anywhere.

George

Quote from: Bealman on January 08, 2014, 10:51:18 AM
Sometimes I don't believe I'm reading this stuff. We are playing trains, and if any contributor to this forum can do better, perhaps they can start up their own business and try themselves.

I know I wouldn't even think about it (nor do I have the resources to do so).... BUT - there are folk on here who are established NGS foundation members, and small industries catering for N gauge modellers also advertise their own products here.

Negative comments like the above don't get this hobby anywhere.

George

So your basically saying to us that we should accept the quality issues and move on, and continue to recieve products that either dont work out the box, break within a week, bits missing, etc.

Its not about if we start a business and try do better, all we are asking is the manufacturer to sort their issues out. I assme you think it would be perfectly acceptable to buy a car that doesnt work when you collect it from a dealer?

I expect to receive a model loco to give me atleast 12month reliable service, I understand there maybe certain defects from time to time, but when I have purchased 10+ locos from Dapol and only 2 has given me no issues, i do not see this as acceptable.

Quote from: Bealman on January 08, 2014, 10:51:18 AM
Sometimes I don't believe I'm reading this stuff. We are playing trains, and if any contributor to this forum can do better, perhaps they can start up their own business and try themselves.

If you're paying for it, it really doesn't matter if you're "playing trains". These are not insignificant amounts of money being paid for items that have all the various reported problems. I don't think it's unreasonable to desire better.

Quote from: Bealman on January 08, 2014, 10:51:18 AM
Negative comments like the above don't get this hobby anywhere.

To a point - but noting failures, reasons, and most crucially having the constructive criticism of cures for them is useful for raising standards IMHO, as well as helping those with similar problems on their models overcome them.

Cheers,
Alan

Quote from: Bealman on January 08, 2014, 10:51:18 AM

Quote from: ParkeNd on January 08, 2014, 09:51:23 AM

Quote from: Dr Al on January 08, 2014, 08:55:08 AM

Quote from: Les1952 on January 07, 2014, 09:06:40 PM
I will say, however, that the TOTAL sales of N-gauge locos of any UK type aren't big enough to iron-out random statistical variations.  One over-tired assembler on a production run can muck up a high percentage of any batch of either manufacturer.......

Maybe, but we're paying them to do it correctly....

Cheers,
Alan

Couldn't agree more. Shipping quantities and the quantities made in one production run may be quite different. "Batch of 1" is becoming quite prevalent in manufacturing because you can make a much wider range of products within a day. Long setup times can be engineered out and work measurements like "efficiency" are now seen to be worthless - it's not smart to make more than anyone needs and this just ramps up leadtimes beyond belief.

So maintaining quality needs only to be over say 10 units before errors or badly fitting components are flagged up by the operator. And this is all about instilling a quality ethos in the workforce in every department. Even getting the parts to the lines on time so that manufacturing isn't tempted to build "derelicts" that they forget to retrofit - like my Dapol Hall with no drive shaft.

Moving production around from one cheap economy to another is real enemy of quality.

We deserve no less in 2014 than being able to get the product out of the box and for it to work first time every time.

Sometimes I don't believe I'm reading this stuff. We are playing trains, and if any contributor to this forum can do better, perhaps they can start up their own business and try themselves.

I know I wouldn't even think about it (nor do I have the resources to do so).... BUT - there are folk on here who are established NGS foundation members, and small industries catering for N gauge modellers also advertise their own products here.

Negative comments like the above don't get this hobby anywhere.

George

I don't believe I am reading this. I DID spend 48 years on the front line in manufacturing and in the last 15 years or so we DID achieve better quality  in our products than we are getting in terms of consistency with our trains.

To accept that say 5% or 10% of our locos not working properly at £100 per throw is very 1970s. One prestige company I worked for in 1970 believed that no customer could reasonably expect their unique and complex product to arrive at a customers premises and work straight out of the box or not have the odd scratch or two on the back. The customers voted with their feet as soon as alternative manufacturers appeared.

What would happen if a third major player (these guys make 00 as well) came into the market with better quality toys.

I seem to have stirred something up.

GWR-Kris:

I'm sorry, but I cannot make sense out of your last paragraph.

Dr Al:

I can see your point.

ParkeNd:

I don't know your career history! Model railway manufacturing - I assume?

Bedtime here in Oz.

Regards, George.

We can't play trains if they don't run properly. If no one complained then the quality would be even worse.

I've been lucky with products from both manufacturers, thank goodness, as I have limited funds and have to think carefully about each purchase.

Topics like this may sound like one big grumbling session but I find them very useful as they give me the information needed to (hopefully) make wise purchases. One thing I've learned is to test all locos before buying them.

Complaints are not confined to this forum alone,  there are complaints about Hornby and Bachmann on other forums and no doubt there are even complaints on German forums about Minitrix and Fleischmann locos too.

Regards

Veronica

Quote from: Bealman on January 08, 2014, 11:53:16 AM
I seem to have stirred something up.

GWR-Kris:

I'm sorry, but I cannot make sense out of your last paragraph.
Regards, George.

Haha think you have.  :P

Sorry last paragraph was trying to explain out of say 10 locos i bought from dapol only 2 out those have not had to be returned under warrenty. so within 12months thats 80% failure. I do not see this as acceptable quaility.

Quote from: silly moo on January 08, 2014, 11:59:58 AM
Topics like this may sound like one big grumbling session but I find them very useful as they give me the information needed to (hopefully) make wise purchases. One thing I've learned is to test all locos before buying them.

Hi Veronica

While I can see the logic of your point (particularly being in SA!), the risk is that you get put off a particular model by a relatively small number of negative reports - we see it time and again that people put reports on the latest problem, but it is relatively rare to see similar reports of praise. Even if failure rates are as high as 10%, that still means that an awful lot of people have reasonable runners (or have never run them or fixed any issues themselves).

That isn't an attempt to gloss over issues - it is absolutely right that people should record issues with/complain about/return duds - just a warning that we don't unintentionally mislead people.

Cheers, Mike

Kris, that's a terrible % of duds! I only have 1 Dapol, a 14xx which
always run ok, though it only pulls 1 coach or a couple of small wagons.

Quote from: red_death on January 08, 2014, 12:32:26 PM
While I can see the logic of your point (particularly being in SA!), the risk is that you get put off a particular model by a relatively small number of negative reports - we see it time and again that people put reports on the latest problem, but it is relatively rare to see similar reports of praise. Even if failure rates are as high as 10%, that still means that an awful lot of people have reasonable runners (or have never run them or fixed any issues themselves).

That isn't an attempt to gloss over issues - it is absolutely right that people should record issues with/complain about/return duds - just a warning that we don't unintentionally mislead people.

Cheers, Mike

TBH I completly agree with you. But one advantage of the forums you do tend to get more people pipe up and say if they had no issues.

Quote from: Bealman on January 08, 2014, 11:53:16 AM
I seem to have stirred something up.

GWR-Kris:

I'm sorry, but I cannot make sense out of your last paragraph.

Dr Al:

I can see your point.

ParkeNd:

I don't know your career history! Model railway manufacturing - I assume?

Bedtime here in Oz.

Regards, George.

George. It was in complex electro-mechanical assembly. Prestige motor cars, Deltic engines, Photocopiers, Bespoke industrial electric motors, washing machines and tumble dryers, Aeroplanes, and gas boilers.

All in fact remarkably similar in terms of components, manufacturing processes, and the undesirability in the customers eyes for them not to work first time, or indeed ever to break down.

Can't see anything unique or special in any way about model trains.

Quote from: GWR-Kris on January 08, 2014, 12:40:07 PM
TBH I completly agree with you. But one advantage of the forums you do tend to get more people pipe up and say if they had no issues.

In that case I should pipe up about not having any issues. I have two Dapol locos and both of them are trouble-free (if a little lightweight in the hauling department - oops, that's very nearly a gripe!).

Peter

Quote from: ParkeNd on January 08, 2014, 02:03:00 PM
Can't see anything unique or special in any way about model trains.

On an individual component and general business level I agree, what does make N gauge (in particular) different is the size of market and willingness of customer to pay a necessary price for quality demanded.

Cheers, Mike

as both dapol and bachmann seem to have tender drives (appart some new stock) may be they should award Union Mills a massive contract to manufacture future tender chassis ...

that said i've had some crap US outline stuff from backy - and they are 2013 releases both steames and waesels ...

future purchases will be Kato .

Quote from: red_death on January 08, 2014, 02:32:45 PM

Quote from: ParkeNd on January 08, 2014, 02:03:00 PM
Can't see anything unique or special in any way about model trains.

On an individual component and general business level I agree, what does make N gauge (in particular) different is the size of market and willingness of customer to pay a necessary price for quality demanded.

Cheers, Mike

It really wasn't any different for any of the products except perhaps for the cars. Washing machines were the most price sensitive since there were only two major customers and they wanted to pay no more than £150 for your products - and did you ever come across a wife who was silent when the washing machine broke down.

Quality doesn't cost money. It costs a change in attitude and in particular dropping the defence "we are unique - it couldn't be done here"

Quite possibly the major model train manufacturers think what their customers want most is models festooned with detail, but are quite happy to solder and re-assemble the defects themselves. There are probably even companies who think we are happy to wait for replacements or missing bits to be shipped in the post.

For me, having the model the right shape overall, but run perfectly is what matters. I don't bother to fit all the bits in the bags because I can't see them.

I don't have any Union Mills locos but the more I hear about them from forum members the more I think that the man who owns and runs Union Mills really understands Quality.

If we don't get the Quality message back to the big two who else will. But that message has to go back via the retailers because they are their customers - we are just "end users".

Quote from: ParkeNd on January 08, 2014, 03:41:19 PM
I don't have any Union Mills locos but the more I hear about them from forum members the more I think that the man who owns and runs Union Mills really understands Quality.

I have three now and they really are top quality in terms of running and haulage. They will haul just about anything you stick behind them, including other locos. Detail is about on a level with 1990s Graham Farish, but there are so many additional details that cost very little that can be added to them to make them look even better - vacuum pipes, coupling hooks, handrails, tools, etc. I can't recommend them highly enough.

Quote from: ParkeNd on January 08, 2014, 03:41:19 PM
It really wasn't any different for any of the products except perhaps for the cars.

Quality doesn't cost money. It costs a change in attitude and in particular dropping the defence "we are unique - it couldn't be done here"

Quite possibly the major model train manufacturers think what their customers want most is models festooned with detail, but are quite happy to solder and re-assemble the defects themselves. There are probably even companies who think we are happy to wait for replacements or missing bits to be shipped in the post.

For me, having the model the right shape overall, but run perfectly is what matters. I don't bother to fit all the bits in the bags because I can't see them.

I actually agree with you on most things - I'd rather have quality mechanisms, the right shape and the detail, but then I haven't had the issues with things failing that others have and I'm prepared to pay more for it.

I still think that size of market is an issue when ltd editions don't sell 250-500 and that the market is very price sensitive. 

Furthermore, I disagree that quality doesn't cost money - that is either naive or disingenuous - while I agree it requires a change in attitude, it also requires investment in time and/or money in development, plus it may mean having more skilled or better motivated workers ie ultimately it adds to a cost. Farish benefit from being able to use the same factory repeatedly (owned by their parent cpy) whereas Dapol contract out (and IIRC had to change at least once).

I don't for one minute think it can't be done, but I do wonder whether we will pay for it!

Cheers, Mike

Better quality does not necessary mean a huge hike in price, when your talking about better quality motors etc the price is in pence rather than pounds. Where Dapol really fall down is cheap components and just awful soldering on pcbs that should have been sorted out years ago. Coupled to this you have badly designed interiors such as the 26 and 27 where the terrible soldering is put under more pressure as there is simply not enough room for the lighting units. Farish on the other hand have an elegant chassis on most of the retooled models that is easy to take apart with most faults easily fixed.

The one ray of light, last year, was the class 22 from Dapol which is on a par with the latest Farish diesels and has finally ditched the lighting connectors and I really hope that this model is a sign of things to come from Dapol and also I see the involvement of the guy from DCC supplies as a real positive move and will hopefully bring some much needed  QC advice to the company.

Loco reliability - for me , definitely Bachmann Farish over Dapol , though I have had a few new Farish turkeys over the years .....but not as many as Dapol poor runners . I used to buy some new stuff on Ebay as well as used , but now I would only ever buy a new Dapol loco from a reliable retailer where I know I will get a replacement if there is a problem .
         Paint finish generally MUCH more consistently good on Farish locos than on Dapol as well IMHO .
         Union Mills generally excellent , though less detailed than Farish or Dapol , especially their more recent releases . I have had a few running problems over the years with used UM locos which I've bought on Ebay , & have always found Colin VERY helpful & accommodating with repairs etc . plus you get a letter typed on a REAL typewriter !!! Cheers , Ric

It has always puzzled me that (if internet postings are to be believed) all the duds from both Farish and Dapol wind up in the same hands… Apparently some modellers have ‘every one fail’ while for others ‘every one is perfect’. That distribution of the good and the bad can’t be explained away as purely random distribution nor plain luck can it???

So I have to ask what else could be influencing it?  Are those individuals unwittingly doing something different (in handling, storage, maintenance or usage of the locos) that makes theirs more likely to fail, or do some have a greater tolerance of what they consider a minor issue they are willing to fix themselves (for example Farish Steam loco pick-ups always need adjusting), or does their postman practice his golf swing on parcels in the sorting office?

Paul

Quote from: PLD on January 08, 2014, 06:03:11 PM
That distribution of the good and the bad can’t be explained away as purely random distribution nor plain luck can it???

Actually when you are dealing with small sample sizes, getting outliers like a few people always getting duds is likelier than you might think. Statistics can be odd and probability has no memory.

Quote from: red_death on January 08, 2014, 04:27:28 PM

Quote from: ParkeNd on January 08, 2014, 03:41:19 PM
It really wasn't any different for any of the products except perhaps for the cars.

Quality doesn't cost money. It costs a change in attitude and in particular dropping the defence "we are unique - it couldn't be done here"

Quite possibly the major model train manufacturers think what their customers want most is models festooned with detail, but are quite happy to solder and re-assemble the defects themselves. There are probably even companies who think we are happy to wait for replacements or missing bits to be shipped in the post.

For me, having the model the right shape overall, but run perfectly is what matters. I don't bother to fit all the bits in the bags because I can't see them.

I actually agree with you on most things - I'd rather have quality mechanisms, the right shape and the detail, but then I haven't had the issues with things failing that others have and I'm prepared to pay more for it.

I still think that size of market is an issue when ltd editions don't sell 250-500 and that the market is very price sensitive. 

Furthermore, I disagree that quality doesn't cost money - that is either naive or disingenuous - while I agree it requires a change in attitude, it also requires investment in time and/or money in development, plus it may mean having more skilled or better motivated workers ie ultimately it adds to a cost. Farish benefit from being able to use the same factory repeatedly (owned by their parent cpy) whereas Dapol contract out (and IIRC had to change at least once).

I don't for one minute think it can't be done, but I do wonder whether we will pay for it!

Cheers, Mike

It can actually save money when you compare it with the cost of bad quality but then you have to have accounts systems which let you know what returns, repairs, replacing missing parts, and managing complaints in general are costing you. But this has to be set up when you have decided to "go for it".

An interesting  point Paul , Who knows ? Some people mentioned the locos being faulty straight out of the box so in these cases it can't be storage, handling , maintenance etc.
Perhaps a lot of modellers just  don't post their complaints or praise of a particular model which might make those that do stand out more , or as you suggested they aren't too bothered about minor faults they can fix themselves.

People are discussing whether Dapol's failure rates are better than Farish failure rates and how acceptable they are or not, as the case maybe.

How does Kato locos stack up against Dapol and Farish?

I don't own any Kato units but my understanding is that they always work straight out of the box without the fiddling with pick ups etc, and that the failure rate isn't worth mentioning. If I'm wrong I'll stand corrected, but my point is you don't hear much about "my Kato xxxx has broken how do I fix it?". If Kato can get it right first time why can't Dapol and Farish?

looks like its kato time  :thumbsup: , bigest draw back you either purchace a 'drop in' decoder (not that simple for a novice) for ex No of £'s , or hard wire - I keep emailing them to fit a 6 pin socket but no luck so far . Kato also do special runs of factory fitted dcc locos inc sound , but only avaiable through them .
As for running quality they are superb and they do what they say on the 'box' - the Southern Pacific GS4 for example will haul the full 18 car train even up the grades . Smoth quiet runners , price is compatable with bachmann 2013/4 catalog stuff - but you get better quality .
Unfortunetly they dont do UK outline .


alan

There are people who will argue that Kato make models in vastly larger volumes, so additional quality control and R&D costs are soaked up by that. But if for instance, you assume that Kato make models by the batch say 10 times larger than Dapol do with their rediculous 500 per model (so 5,000 Kato models) I'd wager that there would be a pretty similar number of faulty models from the Kato batch; not percentage, actual faulty units. There are a few of us at the club who buy Kato, between us I'd say we've bought in excess of 100 models, and of those I can think of one solitary model that was a dud...and that was second hand, the fault was with the poorly fitted after market DCC decoder not being insulated properly.

At the end of the day, you get what you pay for. Dapol produce stupidly small batches so the costs aren't spread out across as many sold units, either that means they're designed or made on the cheap or they're sold at an inflated price to recoup the costs (my guess is both, based on the poor electrical specification and materials used). Farish run larger production runs, but not by a significant amount, so their costs are spread about a little bit more, plus a fair few of their models share R&D from 00 gauge models which will help to improve margins a little. The end result is I'll only buy Dapol over the counter after a thorough testing, Farish I'll usually wait for the first few online reviews to surface to gauge whether there are any issues before ordering anything. In neither case will I pre order anything but rolling stock. And as I noted earlier in the thread, a few puffs of smoke from Dapol locos and the ensuing 'you killed my brand new engine' arguments (we use Gaugemaster controllers by the way) I won't even let people test on the layout anymore. That said, one of my best running models is a Dapol Ivatt tank, weighted considerably to aid traction and pickup that has now clocked up 280 hours running. I have to admit though, it is my only surviving running Dapol loco too. I did have a peach of a HST once and a few 58s that ran well, but I've had a nightmare with the 9Fs, not yet seen a goodun, and a fair share of 'super creep' tender drives running excessively hot or failing completely with brush goo in the motors or failing loco-tender wiring. My biggest bugbear with Farish on the other hand is the prolific use of crap traction tyres, most locos I own that have them needs them replacing after a day or two of exhibition use. And I've had two Farish tender drive motors shed commutator contacts now (both Jubilees), which seizes the motor and burns them out very quickly if not stopped immediately. These models were both a fair few years old, and had done over 300 hours a piece, but still, a failure is a failure. I actually prefer the simplicity of older Farish steamers, they were made to have worn parts replaced, not be consigned to the bin when something expires because spares are next to unavailable. Probably why I like UM so much.

edit~ bad maths!

Quote from: Jack on January 08, 2014, 07:08:32 PM
If I'm wrong I'll stand corrected, but my point is you don't hear much about "my Kato xxxx has broken how do I fix it?".

Is that simply because this board tends to be mainly British outline and Kato only do 2 UK outline models and those are to 1:160 scale? I don't know the return rates for Kato locos but the low reported failure rate on this forum could be a function of low Kato ownership among british modellers.

Quote from: Karhedron on January 08, 2014, 08:58:03 PM

Quote from: Jack on January 08, 2014, 07:08:32 PM
If I'm wrong I'll stand corrected, but my point is you don't hear much about "my Kato xxxx has broken how do I fix it?".

Is that simply because this board tends to be mainly British outline and Kato only do 2 UK outline models and those are to 1:160 scale? I don't know the return rates for Kato locos but the low reported failure rate on this forum could be a function of low Kato ownership among british modellers.

While I accept that generally that most of our members model British outline, there are quite a few among us that model American N gauge and one or two who model Japanese, hence why we have sub-boards for them, but my point still stands, that being build quality in comparison to Dapol and Farish.

I copied Les1952's example and did a quick analysis of my fleet.  I'll spare you the model-by-model breakdown but the numbers for new locos break down as follows:

Dapol
11 owned (7 steam, 4 diesel)
2 'unacceptable' (one runs like a pig, one failed after 4 or 5 hours running with a burnt out circuit board).  The failed loco was repaired and seems fine now, the other needs to be returned to the retailer.  Both problems were with steam locos.

Graham Farish
12 owned (2 steam type [I'll count the class 08 as steam], 10 diesel/electric)
1 unacceptable  due to out of round wheels (steam loco) and returned to retailer.

Fairly even match but IMHO neither the rough running Dapol loco or the wobbly-wheel Farish loco should have been passed as acceptable by factory QC.  The burnt out circuit probably couldn't have been detected by QC.

Other than that, Dapol has more issues with droopy couplings and Rapidos that won't stay together, but the knuckle type seem to work better (and allow close coupling).  But Farish designed NEM pockets that are so tight it is hard to fit non-Farish couplings (although newer stuff seems better in that respect).

In terms of accuracy and detail there is nothing to choose between them.

Overall, I still think both companies are pretty evenly matched.

Quote from: Karhedron on January 08, 2014, 08:58:03 PM

Quote from: Jack on January 08, 2014, 07:08:32 PM
If I'm wrong I'll stand corrected, but my point is you don't hear much about "my Kato xxxx has broken how do I fix it?".

Is that simply because this board tends to be mainly British outline and Kato only do 2 UK outline models and those are to 1:160 scale? I don't know the return rates for Kato locos but the low reported failure rate on this forum could be a function of low Kato ownership among british modellers.

No.
Surrounded by US prototype modellers and subscribe to a couple of N US based sites (I have over 20 Kato, lifelike and Atlas locos); I have never heard of the warranty and performance problems as reported on UK sites for Dapol and Farish.  I have never heard of any of the local N modellers who have had to return a Kato or Atlas under warranty.
Dapol and Farish still produce lower quality stuff.

Quote from: Zunnan on January 08, 2014, 08:56:45 PM
There are people who will argue that Kato make models in vastly larger volumes, so additional quality control and R&D costs are soaked up by that. But if for instance, you assume that Kato make models by the batch say 10 times larger than Dapol do with their rediculous 500 per model (so 5,000 Kato models) I'd wager that there would be a pretty similar number of faulty models from the Kato batch; not percentage, actual faulty units.

There is no argument to be had - Kato do produce models in vastly larger volumes  compared to the market (if the market is so large for UK then why can you still buy Kato Eurostars umpteen years after it was made?).

QC and R&D costs etc are soaked up by producing more models - simple maths.

But no one is pretending that Dapol/Farish have reached Kato levels - in fact the opposite, they have explained exactly why Dapol/Farish haven't!

Cheers, Mike

Lots of references in many posts to QC Costs and to QC picking up the defective locos.

Modern factories don't have white coated Inspectors any more. The production operators are responsible for their own quality control within procedures laid down by a Quality Control Department. Nowadays good company's don't make rubbish and then use an army in white coats to stop the rubbish getting out of the factory. That's why modern good quality doesn't cost anything and production batch size has no impact either way on absorbing the cost of quality.

For a small one man band to mimic how to produce bad quality model trains would be easy because they wouldn't have to influence 1000 other people to behave in the same way but just :-

Build up trains even if one part is missing. Keep them on one side and try to remember to add the part later when it is delivered.

If a part is missing use the nearest sized item from another loco.

If the parts won't assemble correctly push harder or cut a bit off.

Talk to a close by operator about last nights TV while you work or use Facebook on your phone.

Miss out "unnecessary production steps" like key settings and adjustments to increase your bonus payment at the end of the week.

Keep assembling locos no matter what is going wrong. Flagging up a production problem will make the foreman not like you because his department efficiency figures will go down because of the lost time you will cause.

Remember you just work here for the money and do exactly what you are told and if that's wrong it's not your fault.

If the product isn't working or a tool has stopped doing its job it's nothing to do with you - keep going.

The design of the front bogie wheels was changed to drawing revision 2 because drawing issue 1 caused the loco to derail on points. But you have 100 of the old ones on your bench. Use them up anyway because it seems wrong to put a scrap note on those nice shiny parts and they fit anyway.

If you know that the latest delivery of packaging inserts is undersized and is bending the loco conn rods when you pack the loco keep quiet about it when your team is asked why retailers are returning a particular loco. It's management's job to find out those sort of things - and in any case they'll make you redundant one day.

There is lots more you can do to reduce quality - easy isn't it.


To improve Quality of your loco production you have to get everyone in the company to stop thinking like the above examples  in addition the locos can be designed to be assembled, shadow boards can be created to hold all the tools and gauges at a work station so if any are missing it stands out.

When you have done all this using your entire workforce via projects they run themselves since they are being paid every week keep the production in the same place and keep the workforce stable. If you move production from China to Bulgaria you will have to start all over again.

Negative?- no. Expensive? - no. Will help give your customer better quality locos that sell like hotcakes? - yes.

That still doesn't account for problems that occur by design (bogies dropping out of class 153/156 sprinters because of poorly designed mountings, anyone?). PCB A requires such and such resistor, we can save 5p per unit by using 10% tolerance items over using 5% tolerance; cheap diode Y down the road then suffers because its low tolerance is met by the result of an out of whack resistor in the circuit. Bear in mind that a 10% tolerance 100 ohm resistor can actually be anywhere in the range of ~90 to ~110 ohms, so if you design a circuit that specifies a 100 ohm resistor and what actually goes in is 90 ohms, you need to take that into account and design around it rather than assume that everything going in to that new PCB is absolutely on the ball. Or better still, simplify the PCB so that fewer components are needed. The problem is that British customers want all the bells and whistles but aren't prepared to pay the price that good quality commands on small volume production runs. Using soft brush material in motors too, it may be cheaper to produce, it may even conduct better, but the service life is greatly reduced and it causes all sorts of problems during that limited life...take it into conosideration at the design stage and make the thing servicable or at the very least more readily replaceable by producing spares. So everything gets designed and made down to a price, and still people moan when a model they want costs £100.

If you open up a Kato model, you'd be surprised at how simple and well designed they are. There is less to go wrong with them, less components to assemble poorly, less parts to engineer to a high standard. Which makes it considerably easier to produce an absolutely cracking product.

Good grief! We're just playin' trains, aren't we?

There are indeed manufacturers of N gauge model railway equipment who actively peruse this forum. Some are people who run a 'cottage industry' and also advertise their products here.

I'm sorry, but this last (well, one before last :thumbsup:) post sounds like we're making jet engines on an N scale factory floor here.

Yes, QC (I'm picking up the jargon) - is a major issue, and you don't hear any arising from Kato products.

But, I think it is important that we remember that we are not talking about buying a new car or puttin' a new kitchen in, here. We are just talkin' model railways - which probably 98% of the world's population either regards as eccentric or (more likely) doesn't even know about.

Best regards, to all,

George.

Out of 3,000 members only 108 voted.

Possible explanations

They're busy running their trains
They don't give a monkeys
They haven't bought Farish or Dapol locos
They fell asleep once the how to run a factory stuff started

Quote from: Bealman on January 09, 2014, 10:14:26 AM
We are just talkin' model railways

So??? I really, really don't agree with this sentiment - the genre of items is no excuse for poor products.

We're paying about £100 a loco now. Might be cheap to some, but I consider it a lot - so it doesn't matter whether it's just a toy to you, to me I expect better quality that we often get.

Cheers,
Alan

Quote from: Agrippa on January 09, 2014, 10:31:15 AM
Out of 3,000 members only 108 voted.

Possible explanations

They're busy running their trains
They don't give a monkeys
They haven't bought Farish or Dapol locos
They fell asleep once the how to run a factory stuff started

:laughabovepost: :laughabovepost: :laughabovepost:
I think that about sums it up.

George

Quote from: Dr Al on January 09, 2014, 10:40:13 AM
We're paying about £100 a loco now. Might be cheap to some, but I consider it a lot - so it doesn't matter whether it's just a toy to you, to me I expect better quality that we often get.

I agree, toys or not, we have the right for our toys not to go up in smoke after a couple of hours play.

British law specifies that products must be fit for purpose. I would expect a £100 toy to last for several years provided that it is well looked after.

Quote from: Bealman on January 09, 2014, 10:14:26 AM
Good grief! We're just playin' trains, aren't we?-----------I'm sorry, but this last (well, one before last :thumbsup:) post sounds like we're making jet engines on an N scale factory floor here.-----------------------But, I think it is important that we remember that we are not talking about buying a new car or puttin' a new kitchen in, here. We are just talkin' model railways - which probably 98% of the world's population either regards as eccentric or (more likely) doesn't even know about.

Best regards, to all,

George.

I guess you're not getting it George. At least now I'm retired I don't get paid to convince people anymore so I will desist. So end of contributions from me on this thread. Thank heavens?

New Dapol BR green 57xx pannier just arrived from Hattons and needs running in this afternoon when I get home. If it doesn't work no matter - it was only £61 plus postage. But then I'm sure I will be lucky - 90% of the time I am.

Quote from: Bealman on January 09, 2014, 10:14:26 AM
Good grief! We're just playin' trains, aren't we?

There are indeed manufacturers of N gauge model railway equipment who actively peruse this forum. Some are people who run a 'cottage industry' and also advertise their products here.

I'm buying a product.  I expect it to be made fit for purpose.  They are not a couple of pounds each.
It is not as if BR manufacturers are at the cutting edge where new technology throws up a few unexpected events but generally trailing decades behind even with very good examples on how to get it right readily available.
I hope that companies are perusing the forums and actually taking highlighted quality problems seriously.
CFJ

I'll readily go along with that. I was actively involved in a local N gauge club during the late 1980's and early 90's. Kato models were available then, owned by some members, and envied by the likes of me.

No British Kato, unfortunately - until of course along came the Eurostar, albeit, as noted by other contributors to this thread, at a different scale.

However, even back then, I and other local N gauge people wondered why Kato got it right, whereas the English stuff was so much rubbish in comparison.

The reason(s) has/have  been discussed at length on this thread, so I will not add anything. At the time around 1990, I remember my catch cry at the club and exhibitions was:

"When are Kato going to bring out a Blue Pullman?"

It could have been brought out as a boxed set, similar to the Eurostar. It would, of course have been to the wrong scale!

We now have the Farish model, of which I am a proud owner (and, luckily.... it runs like a dream).

However, putting my side of this argument to rest, I see where you are all coming from with calls of 100% running reliability when you buy stuff.

But it ain't gonna happen. I have bought two brand new cars in the last 30 years that were lemons.

However, yeah, there's no harm in letting the manufacturers know about problems, I guess.

But I also guess that, yeah, I still don't get it  :D. What's on offer to British N scalers these days is streets ahead of what went before.

100% reliability has never been, and never will be, a possibility. I hope that the 57xx Pannier falls into the 90% window allocated.  :thumbsup:

BR green, it must have!!  ;D

George  :thumbsup:

Sorry Bealman I do expect better for a £100 loco and I would be incredibly surprised if the 10% rate is not much much higher when you equate into the numbers people who fix locos and the collectors market.

Anyone with a ounce of electronic know how can see the cheap nasty components that go into the Dapol models and it needs to be drilled into them that it is costing them money in the long run. For the price of a bag of tomatoes all the components from resistors. pcb's and motors could be upgraded and as Zunnan pointed out earlier you have resistors etc that are not fit for purpose. One of their continuing problems seems to be a non standardization across their entire range so that you have completely different circuity over many different locos and even different motor voltage. Farish pretty much have a standardized way of doing things with very similar components  across the range. But above all things, with Dapol, is the soldering which would be an embarrassment to a five year old let alone a company involved in electronics.

Quote from: Truffles on January 09, 2014, 12:24:20 PM
Farish pretty much have a standardized way of doing things with very similar components  across the range.

I don't agree entirely. Farish have 6 different motor types. Dapol have 3...

Cheers,
Alan

What are you basing the 3 on exactly?

While I am on my soap box I also think the price of spare components from DCC Supplies is nothing short of daylight robbery with one example being the replacement lighting unit for a class 26 at £8.40 !!!!!!!!! Now that is a component that will have cost Dapol sub 10p to manufacture (if it was not sub 10p then they have been ripped off) I have no problem with retailers making a profit but this is just not right particularly when DCC supplies are so heavily involved with Dapol and the owner actually works for them.

Dan

Rough breakdown of that £8.40, £1.40 is VAT.  1/3 retail margin, 1/3 manufacturers margin, 1/3 product cost.

Looking at the component cost of most model railway items doesn't tell you much as the costs are normally design, tooling and assembly much more than components (an injection moulded body is pennies, but that doesn't mean you are being ripped off).

The fact that the owner of DCC supplies works for Dapol P/T is irrelevant...

Quote from: Truffles on January 09, 2014, 12:56:42 PM
What are you basing the 3 on exactly?

Farish:
- Original Poole 5 pole armature
- Open frame 5 pole Bachmann skew wound motor (e.g class 45, upgraded Poole diesels)
- V2 small diameter 3 pole can (different to below)
- Small diameter 3 pole can motor (e.g. 03, 04, Jubilee, tender drives)
- larger diameter 3 pole can motor (E.g. revised HST, 108, diesels)
- cylindrical coreless motor on latest steam

Dapol:
- 3 pole original can (Ivatt, Q1)
- 3 pole 'super creep' can (Terrier, 57xx)
- 5 pole 'super creep' open frame (pretty much everything else).

Cheers,
Alan

Hang on a minute Truffles.

We don't know the costs and profit margins, and in any case everyone in the supply chain has a right to make a profit.

Perhaps this thread will have an effect upon Dapol (since they seem to be on the receiving end of most harsh comments). On the other hand, anybody from Union Mills, Kato, Minitrix etc will be really pleased. Not sure where Farish is left though - they have had some criticism as well.

Quote from: Truffles on January 09, 2014, 12:56:42 PM
While I am on my soap box I also think the price of spare components from DCC Supplies is nothing short of daylight robbery

Some are, some are very cheap - e.g. A3 wheelsets for only a few £, motors are ~£15 (comparable with Farish), gears 60p-£1 (comparable with Farish).

Some of the PCBs etc are expensive, as are the motorised chassis - cheaper to buy the standard loco and remove the body.

Cheers,
Alan

Whoha there everyone.

I think this thread is going off at a tangent. Truffles, my first reaction to your post was: electronics? resistors? pcbs?

This only applies to DCC. There is (are?) no electronics involved in locomotives running on DC, save, perhaps maybe a cap or something similar acting as a spark suppressor for TVs. So I would possibly suggest that anyone with an ounce of electronic know-how would maybe know that.

Agrippa offered yet another theory: perhaps everyone fell asleep.

Having said that, it's late here in Australia. I AM going to bed.  :dighole:

All the best,

George.

Dr Al, I did purposefully say 'circuitry' rather than type of motor although the Dapol 58 does not conform to the same spec as standard super creep.

Bealman.... you need the extra bits of 'electronics' not just for DCC running but to operate things such as the lights...maybe I should have said that I was referring specifically to Dapol diesels.

Red Death, if I was to purchase two of the lighting units, for both ends of a model, that would come to  £16.80 and I stand by my opinion that that is way overpriced for something that is very poorly made in the first place.

Dan

Quote from: Bealman on January 09, 2014, 01:28:47 PM
This only applies to DCC. There is (are?) no electronics involved in locomotives running on DC, save, perhaps maybe a cap or something similar acting as a spark suppressor for TVs.

Not true in terms of only DCC. The capacitors and suppression circuits in some Dapol are so bad they fail too. I've seen it on several locos, only run on DC.

Cheers,
Alan

Quote from: Truffles on January 09, 2014, 01:48:34 PM
Red Death, if I was to purchase two of the lighting units, for both ends of a model, that would come to  £16.80 and I stand by my opinion that that is way overpriced for something that is very poorly made in the first place.

Presumably the replacements are made to the same standard also....?

Cheers,
Alan

The thing I find most annoying, both compaines the same is the concentration on locomotives. There is so much rollling stock not avaiable, Farish are slowly working their way through retooling, which is excellent progress and stuff they release tends to always be in stock. But dapol coaches espically things like mk3 coaches in certain liveries, gwr collets etc never seem to be in stock due to the low build numbers.

Also they release liveries such as NSE but no rolling stock is for sale except the odd old farish stuff theat pops up. Im finding that I have more locos than rolling stock.

What i would love to see from manufacturers is kits of coaches, where only assembly is required and apply a running number. I just dont understand why it takes a company such as dapol for example to take over 12months to produce a mk3 coach where the tooling is already approved, paint spec and all thats needed is a different running number espically on popular liveries

Quote from: GWR-Kris on January 09, 2014, 02:47:40 PM
The thing I find most annoying, both compaines the same is the concentration on locomotives.

Dave Jones is on record as saying that one reason for DJM (and presumably Dapol) for concentrating on locos is it is easier to get a swift return on investment.

Customers buy too many locos - I know I have, despite best attempts to be more disciplined!

Quote from: GWR-Kris on January 09, 2014, 02:47:40 PM
I just dont understand why it takes a company such as dapol for example to take over 12months to produce a mk3 coach where the tooling is already approved, paint spec and all thats needed is a different running number espically on popular liveries

Because they don't own the factory, so they are competing for factory slots with lots of other manufacturers...

Quote from: red_death on January 09, 2014, 03:02:47 PM

Quote from: GWR-Kris on January 09, 2014, 02:47:40 PM
I just dont understand why it takes a company such as dapol for example to take over 12months to produce a mk3 coach where the tooling is already approved, paint spec and all thats needed is a different running number espically on popular liveries

Because they don't own the factory, so they are competing for factory slots with lots of other manufacturers...

Well that explains so much.

returns under warranty ? , new 2-8-8-4 mallet from backy I had it 3 days they've had it nearly 2 months !
Barwell says working with in tollerances - but we have no wheels to fix it - and yet they wont exchange it for another loco .
Then cars made a mention ''you get what you pay for'' was in a couple of postings , My Mk D was bought in late 1950's and is still going well - good enough to earn MOT exemption , remember this was the cheapest manufactuer at the time -  so its back to trains if one company can do it why cant others ?


alan

Quote from: Bealman on January 09, 2014, 11:46:07 AM
I'll readily go along with that. I was actively involved in a local N gauge club during the late 1980's and early 90's. Kato models were available then, owned by some members, and envied by the likes of me.
<SNIP>
However, even back then, I and other local N gauge people wondered why Kato got it right, whereas the English stuff was so much rubbish in comparison.

Same experience.  I bought US prototype to get reliable running for DCC.

Quote from: Bealman on January 09, 2014, 11:46:07 AM
What's on offer to British N scalers these days is streets ahead of what went before.

100% reliability has never been, and never will be, a possibility. I hope that the 57xx Pannier falls into the 90% window allocated.  :thumbsup:

Yes, the level of detail is extremely good these days. :claphappy:
My older stock looks like a bad parody of the new stock.
What we need is mechanical reliability upgrade so that we don't read the stream of woes. :(  I expect 100% reliability but know that this is not economically reachable.  However 99% (approx 3 sigma) is and should be the norm.
I find it rather depressing to read how a modeller is already planning on how to return on failure before even running in or even before delivery. :'(

Quote from: GWR-Kris on January 09, 2014, 03:28:36 PM

Quote from: red_death on January 09, 2014, 03:02:47 PM

Quote from: GWR-Kris on January 09, 2014, 02:47:40 PM
I just dont understand why it takes a company such as dapol for example to take over 12months to produce a mk3 coach where the tooling is already approved, paint spec and all thats needed is a different running number espically on popular liveries

Because they don't own the factory, so they are competing for factory slots with lots of other manufacturers...

Well that explains so much.

It's also been stated before by both Bachmann and Dapol that because there are so many companies using the same limited production facilities in China it's a case of "those that shout loudest with the biggest orders get manufacturing time first". So if a large car manufacturer wants 5,000,000 watchamacallits made pronto then tinpot model railway companies wanting 10,000 little toy trains made get pushed further and further back in the queue ;)


Paul

If the production facility has such a diverse range we don't have a chance.

Yeah - 1:1 scale motor vehicles are gonna win every time!

Yes they all come out of the same factory!

I wonder what the true actual cost difference is manufacturing in Europe rather than the far east. For higher wages we can balance lower distribution costs and easier communications. However, would such a move (if reasonably economic) solve the quality issues ?

Can of worms open, debate between Dapol and Farish forgotten.

Not wishing to veer off-topic, but in response to BobB's question, Humbrol are in the process of repatriating their production, and I belive Airfix are considering the same.  Regardless of the costs of production (which theoretically should fall with 3D printing technology), nobody's going to make money from delivering nothing.

Back to the topic - I don't own any Dapol models.  My small collection of stock is all relatively new Bachmann Farish gear, as I find it generally very pleasing.  I have owned a couple of the Poole Farish engines - a Class 101 and a 'General Purpose Tank' in SR livery, and both were clunky and noisy.  The tank engine emitted a fair bit of smoke as well, which was a nice effect, but probably not good for the motor.

Quote from: Richey1977 on January 10, 2014, 12:32:00 PM
The tank engine emitted a fair bit of smoke as well, which was a nice effect, but probably not good for the motor.

That's overheating due to something tight in the mechanism or a weakening magnet - don't run it until sorted or burn out'll occur!

Cheers,
Alan

I figured it would.

I ebayed it to someone who has the time and techniques to sort it, and got back the £20 I paid in the first place.  I'm more interested in building scenery and details than fiddling with motors.

I'm tempted by Dapol's Class 121 and 58.  The 121 would look quite appropraite for the layout I'm building, and my first ever model train was the Hornby 58, and I always liked it's outline.  Bit strapped for cash at the moment anyway, so it's a moot point.  Its seems the beer fairy, whilst getting me safely home by train from the pub the other night, also accessed my eBay mobile app, and purchased a Graham Farish 'Depot Master' train set.  Naughty fairy.  ::)

Quote from: mr bachmann on January 09, 2014, 04:13:38 PM
returns under warranty ? , new 2-8-8-4 mallet from backy I had it 3 days they've had it nearly 2 months !
Barwell says working with in tollerances - but we have no wheels to fix it - and yet they wont exchange it for another loco .

So get them to return it, at their cost, and refund any postage you paid (since they can't fix it in breach of their warranty, and then return it to the shop as unfit for purpose at their expense)

And if they or the shop argue go to your card company.

They get away with this crap because people don't actually force them to follow basic sale of goods rules.

Alan

Quote from: Sprintex on January 09, 2014, 11:25:23 PM
It's also been stated before by both Bachmann and Dapol that because there are so many companies using the same limited

Bachmann own the factory, or rather the factory owns Bachmann.

Dave Jones said there was no backlog at the factory Dapol was using ... on rmweb

Quote
production facilities in China it's a case of "those that shout loudest with the biggest orders get manufacturing time first".

Not in my experience they work like everywhere else

- if you are a customer with a good personal relationship and pay well you get good service. The relationship is key. Thats why I think losing Dave will really hurt Dapol. Your "man in China" is a critical part of the business if you are an independent using a Chinese producer.

- if you are a pain the butt and pay peanuts you get monkeys

Chinese factories range from precision assembly to ISO quality standards with people who will deliver the product specified to the leter of the specification on the day specified through to ten blokes on the back of a warehouse who will be a lot cheaper.

Alan

Quote from: BobB on January 10, 2014, 07:14:00 AM
I wonder what the true actual cost difference is manufacturing in Europe rather than the far east. For higher wages we can balance lower distribution costs and easier communications. However, would such a move (if reasonably economic) solve the quality issues ?

Costing is hard but local production does solve quality issues for multiple reasons

1. You can see and act on a problem very rapidly (something the car industry learned from Japan and 'just in time' production)

2. The people working for you are on the same side. If someone 3000 miles away agreed to a job then they may not want to suddenly change the spec and its a lot of hassle, whereas your own staff are depending on the same company to keep getting paid

Peco produce their models in the UK.

Final comment now I'm catching up on a very long thread

One way you do quality is not to keep changing things. Comparing Union Mills to Dapol is in some ways a false comparison. Union Mills does one thing right. Every loco is built to the same basic mechanism in the same way. It's been refined from the early models (some of which could be a bit dodgy) year in year out until the tender drive unit has achieved engineering zen (by which I mean not that there is nothing that needs adding but that there is nothing less to take away).

Solving the same problem repeatedly is much much easier. Look how reliable Farish and Dapol wagons and coaches are.

Alan

Not that I wanted to enter into this discussion but your last three posts are absolutely correct.

I was for a number of years involved at a Government level in international trade and the relationship with your Chinese manufacturer is critical.

I think I will leave it at that.

Kind regards

Geoff

Make that the last four posts.

Quote from: EtchedPixels on January 11, 2014, 12:01:38 AM

Quote from: BobB on January 10, 2014, 07:14:00 AM
I wonder what the true actual cost difference is manufacturing in Europe rather than the far east. For higher wages we can balance lower distribution costs and easier communications. However, would such a move (if reasonably economic) solve the quality issues ?

Costing is hard but local production does solve quality issues for multiple reasons

1. You can see and act on a problem very rapidly (something the car industry learned from Japan and 'just in time' production)

2. The people working for you are on the same side. If someone 3000 miles away agreed to a job then they may not want to suddenly change the spec and its a lot of hassle, whereas your own staff are depending on the same company to keep getting paid

Peco produce their models in the UK.

This point always annoyed me as a Logistics Manager. Purchasing make decisions based on prices at the factory gate no matter where that factory gate is. A global % transport cost is then assumed for all items. There is no allowance for Logistics costs or the cost of resolving a quality problem with people who don't talk your language and who work when you are supposed to be in bed. And if you want to increase your order size or bring the delivery date forward a week then air freight at your expense is on the table in the first few seconds.

Power without responsibility. That's Purchasing and their sourcing decisions. Maybe some companies are starting to say "Oh yeah- didn't think of that. Let's move it back to Birmingham"

Quote from: ParkeNd on January 11, 2014, 12:18:27 AM

Quote from: EtchedPixels on January 11, 2014, 12:01:38 AM

Quote from: BobB on January 10, 2014, 07:14:00 AM
I wonder what the true actual cost difference is manufacturing in Europe rather than the far east. For higher wages we can balance lower distribution costs and easier communications. However, would such a move (if reasonably economic) solve the quality issues ?

Costing is hard but local production does solve quality issues for multiple reasons

1. You can see and act on a problem very rapidly (something the car industry learned from Japan and 'just in time' production)

2. The people working for you are on the same side. If someone 3000 miles away agreed to a job then they may not want to suddenly change the spec and its a lot of hassle, whereas your own staff are depending on the same company to keep getting paid

Peco produce their models in the UK.

This point always annoyed me as a Logistics Manager. Purchasing make decisions based on prices at the factory gate no matter where that factory gate is. A global % transport cost is then assumed for all items. There is no allowance for Logistics costs or the cost of resolving a quality problem with people who don't talk your language and who work when you are supposed to be in bed. And if you want to increase your order size or bring the delivery date forward a week the air freight at your expense is on the table in the first few seconds.

Power without responsibility. That's Purchasing and their sourcing decisions. Maybe one companies are starting to say "Oh yeah- didn't think of that. Let's move it back to Birmingham"

This is happening more and more  :thumbsup:

We have had a manufacturing plant in Shanghai for 9 years and are only now seeiing that the total cost of quality has meant that the supposed "cost reductions" are almost totally fictitious.

Production is now being brought back to Coventry whilst raw material sourcing is being moved to India...

Quote from: Leo1961 on January 11, 2014, 12:22:42 AM

Quote from: ParkeNd on January 11, 2014, 12:18:27 AM

Quote from: EtchedPixels on January 11, 2014, 12:01:38 AM

Quote from: BobB on January 10, 2014, 07:14:00 AM
I wonder what the true actual cost difference is manufacturing in Europe rather than the far east. For higher wages we can balance lower distribution costs and easier communications. However, would such a move (if reasonably economic) solve the quality issues ?

Costing is hard but local production does solve quality issues for multiple reasons

1. You can see and act on a problem very rapidly (something the car industry learned from Japan and 'just in time' production)

2. The people working for you are on the same side. If someone 3000 miles away agreed to a job then they may not want to suddenly change the spec and its a lot of hassle, whereas your own staff are depending on the same company to keep getting paid

Peco produce their models in the UK.

This point always annoyed me as a Logistics Manager. Purchasing make decisions based on prices at the factory gate no matter where that factory gate is. A global % transport cost is then assumed for all items. There is no allowance for Logistics costs or the cost of resolving a quality problem with people who don't talk your language and who work when you are supposed to be in bed. And if you want to increase your order size or bring the delivery date forward a week the air freight at your expense is on the table in the first few seconds.

Power without responsibility. That's Purchasing and their sourcing decisions. Maybe one companies are starting to say "Oh yeah- didn't think of that. Let's move it back to Birmingham"

This is happening more and more  :thumbsup:

We have had a manufacturing plant in Shanghai for 9 years and are only now seeiing that the total cost of quality has meant that the supposed "cost reductions" are almost totally fictitious.

Production is now being brought back to Coventry whilst raw material sourcing is being moved to India...

Thank heavens that half the problem is being fixed. Now that raw material - is it indigenous to India or can it come from at least an EU country?

Quote from: ParkeNd on January 11, 2014, 12:27:23 AM

Thank heavens that half the problem is being fixed. Now that raw material - is it indigenous to India or can it come from at least an EU country?

We source from all over the world, but anything with much labour content struggles to be competitive if it is made with the EU.

And we can't really be totally hypocritical as over 95% of our output is exported  8)

A caption on a picture I had a copy of many years ago stated

"The Boss is like a nappy, always up your (posterior) and full of..."

You can guess the rest.

Cheers, Timmo

Interesting that Hatton's are quoting January 2014 for the delivery of Dapol's A4 Sir Nigel Gresley. I have one on pre-order.
http://www.ehattons.com/stocklist/results.aspx?searchfield=2S-008-002 (http://www.ehattons.com/stocklist/results.aspx?searchfield=2S-008-002)

I checked availability with Liverpool last and they advised there's is no news but they hope it may arrive.

Using the part number on the Hatton's site (2S-008-002) I searched Dapol's to see if there's any news. The number isn't recognised!
http://dapol.co.uk/index.php?route=product/isearch&filter_name=2S-008-002 (http://dapol.co.uk/index.php?route=product/isearch&filter_name=2S-008-002)

Most odd but I'm sure there's a reason/excuse somewhere along the line!  ;)

Dave G