I received the value pack of Powerbase yesterday. There is enough product for 5m/16ft of track and enough magnets for 6 locos (although that will depend on the number of driven bogies, etc.)
I will get a chance to experiment with this system On Friday and so i'll report back then.
In the meantime here are a couple of photos of what you get in the pack and their sizes. That's a standard SD card for scale.
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y69/P3K/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsb4db8907.jpg) (http://s3.photobucket.com/user/P3K/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsb4db8907.jpg.html)
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y69/P3K/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsbc25c6bc.jpg) (http://s3.photobucket.com/user/P3K/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsbc25c6bc.jpg.html)
Reading between the lines is it a system whereby there are magnets oriented under the track and another on each locomotive such that the magnetic attraction of each is sequential in assisting the locomotive?
As long as the magnts are fitted under the locomotive in the correct orientation?
Regards, Peter.
Quote from: petercharlesfagg on December 18, 2013, 10:12:33 AM
Reading between the lines is it a system whereby there are magnets oriented under the track and another on each locomotive such that the magnetic attraction of each is sequential in assisting the locomotive?
As long as the magnts are fitted under the locomotive in the correct orientation?
Regards, Peter.
Not quite Peter.
That's what I thought initially. The plates re not magnets, they are steel, but obviously magnetic. The only magnets are those fitted to underside of the engine, preferably between the driving wheels.
They are neodymium magnets I think, and so quite powerfully. There are YouTube videos showing the OO version in action on 1 in 30 inclines and it appears quite impressive.
Quote from: ScottyStitch on December 18, 2013, 10:19:38 AM
Quote from: petercharlesfagg on December 18, 2013, 10:12:33 AM
Reading between the lines is it a system whereby there are magnets oriented under the track and another on each locomotive such that the magnetic attraction of each is sequential in assisting the locomotive?
As long as the magnts are fitted under the locomotive in the correct orientation?
Regards, Peter.
Not quite Peter.
That's what I thought initially. The plates re not magnets, they are steel, but obviously magnetic. The only magnets are those fitted to underside of the engine, preferably between the driving wheels.
They are neodymium magnets I think, and so quite powerfully. There are YouTube videos showing the OO version in action on 1 in 30 inclines and it appears quite impressive.
What it is then that down force is applied to the driving wheels to improve contact with the rails.
I do not want to put a damper on your enthusiasm but I feel it could create a few more problems?
My old mechanics brain then starts equating down "force" with increased load on components i.e. drive linkages, motors etc. etc.
It will be interesting to see how things progress?
Regards, Peter.
Quote from: petercharlesfagg on December 18, 2013, 10:43:46 AM
Quote from: ScottyStitch on December 18, 2013, 10:19:38 AM
Quote from: petercharlesfagg on December 18, 2013, 10:12:33 AM
Reading between the lines is it a system whereby there are magnets oriented under the track and another on each locomotive such that the magnetic attraction of each is sequential in assisting the locomotive?
As long as the magnts are fitted under the locomotive in the correct orientation?
Regards, Peter.
Not quite Peter.
That's what I thought initially. The plates re not magnets, they are steel, but obviously magnetic. The only magnets are those fitted to underside of the engine, preferably between the driving wheels.
They are neodymium magnets I think, and so quite powerfully. There are YouTube videos showing the OO version in action on 1 in 30 inclines and it appears quite impressive.
What it is then that down force is applied to the driving wheels to improve contact with the rails.
I do not want to put a damper on your enthusiasm but I feel it could create a few more problems?
My old mechanics brain then starts equating down "force" with increased load on components i.e. drive linkages, motors etc. etc.
It will be interesting to see how things progress?
Regards, Peter.
Yes downforce is applied to increase adhesion, traction and reduce wheel slip. In essence it's no different to adding weight to the engine.
Quote from: ScottyStitch on December 18, 2013, 09:55:55 AM
In the meantime here are a couple of photos of what you get in the pack and their sizes. That's a standard SD card for scale.
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y69/P3K/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsb4db8907.jpg) (http://s3.photobucket.com/user/P3K/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsb4db8907.jpg.html)
I assume you planning to use these on your helex(es)? If so does this mean you are adding straight sections to them?
Cheers
Dave
Quote from: DCCDave on December 18, 2013, 11:04:51 AM
Quote from: ScottyStitch on December 18, 2013, 09:55:55 AM
In the meantime here are a couple of photos of what you get in the pack and their sizes. That's a standard SD card for scale.
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y69/P3K/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsb4db8907.jpg) (http://s3.photobucket.com/user/P3K/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsb4db8907.jpg.html)
I assume you planning to use these on your helex(es)? If so does this mean you are adding straight sections to them?
Cheers
Dave
Hi Dave
Yes, they are for the helix. But if they work as advertised I'm hoping to go back to the original idea and make the helix completely circular.
Yes I saw a review of this system in a magazine. Would be very interested in your tests. I thought it might be useful on small light engines. My only negative thought at this stage was the interaction with another magnetic system like decouplers but like extra weight it could increase stress on the engine
Quote from: rhysapthomas on December 18, 2013, 11:19:44 AM
Yes I saw a review of this system in a magazine. Would be very interested in your tests. I thought it might be useful on small light engines. My only negative thought at this stage was the interaction with another magnetic system like decouplers but like extra weight it could increase stress on the engine
I take it you mean the magnets on the underside of the engine interacting with fixed permanent decoupling magnets?
That is indeed a reasonable question. Not something I'll be able to test at this stage, and on my layout i'm hoping to use electromagnets, but a valid point.
Dumb question (not that there's such thing): Are these likely to affect motor's or decoders?
It's a neat solution to a problem but from an engineering point of view I can't help but think that it's a treatment for a symptom and not the cause. If un/non/rare/rule 1 justifying-prototypical grade's are used then this is an excellent work-around.
The only concern is that loco's are getting lighter and lighter these day', especially loco drive steamer's, soon we'll need these systems on the flat too.
Quote from: stevieboy on December 18, 2013, 01:11:35 PM
Dumb question (not that there's such thing): Are these likely to affect motor's or decoders?
It's a neat solution to a problem but from an engineering point of view I can't help but think that it's a treatment for a symptom and not the cause. If un/non/rare/rule 1 justifying-prototypical grade's are used then this is an excellent work-around.
The only concern is that loco's are getting lighter and lighter these day', especially loco drive steamer's, soon we'll need these systems on the flat too.
I shouldn't think they would affect the decoders. in most cases the decoder is above the motor, so I'd think far enough away from the powerbase magnet. The motors, I don't know. One just has to hope that the manufacturers have tested it thoroughly before beinging to market, but I would think the magnets are remote enough.
It all appears to be academic because the magnets are too bulky to fit under the engine. On Farish 24, the magnet will foul the rails when crossing points, and on the Farish A1, it is so low it actually fouls the sleepers, so much so that the tender does not sit on the rails.
It appears to me, therefore, that DCC concepts did not think this through properly, nor did the test it on sufficient British outline n gauge engines.
I shall be emailing them.
Quote from: ScottyStitch on December 20, 2013, 04:37:10 PM
It all appears to be academic because the magnets are too bulky to fit under the engine. On Farish 24, the magnet will foul the rails when crossing points, and on the Farish A1, it is so low it actually fouls the sleepers, so much so that the tender does not sit on the rails.
It appears to me, therefore, that DCC concepts did not think this through properly, nor did the test it on sufficient British outline n gauge engines.
I shall be emailing them.
Hi
As far as I can see this is designed for OO/HO not N.
Cheers
Paul
Quote from: PaulCheffus on December 20, 2013, 05:22:45 PM
Quote from: ScottyStitch on December 20, 2013, 04:37:10 PM
It all appears to be academic because the magnets are too bulky to fit under the engine. On Farish 24, the magnet will foul the rails when crossing points, and on the Farish A1, it is so low it actually fouls the sleepers, so much so that the tender does not sit on the rails.
It appears to me, therefore, that DCC concepts did not think this through properly, nor did the test it on sufficient British outline n gauge engines.
I shall be emailing them.
Hi
As far as I can see this is designed for OO/HO not N.
Cheers
Paul
DCC Concepts are marketing and selling an N Gauge version. It is marked as such on the packaging. It also costs slightly more because it is 'optimised' for N gauge. Unfortunately, it doesn't look like they've tested it, or even trial installed it!
Quote from: ScottyStitch on December 20, 2013, 05:27:10 PM
DCC Concepts are marketing and selling an N Gauge version. It is marked as such on the packaging. It also costs slightly more because it is 'optimised' for N gauge. Unfortunately, it doesn't look like they've tested it, or even trial installed it!
Hi
Do you have a link as I cannot find that.
Cheers
Paul
Sure, here it is on hattons website
http://www.ehattons.com/68808/DCC_Concepts_DCX_PBBVPN_PowerBase_N_Gauge_Value_Pack_use_to_setup_PowerBase_on_16ft_5_metres_of_track_/StockDetail.aspx (http://www.ehattons.com/68808/DCC_Concepts_DCX_PBBVPN_PowerBase_N_Gauge_Value_Pack_use_to_setup_PowerBase_on_16ft_5_metres_of_track_/StockDetail.aspx)
Scotty
i would love to see how they intend to fit these to a pannier,14xx etc :goggleeyes:
I have sent them an email, explaining the problems I encountered and asking them what models they tested it on.
I just hope Hattons will accept a return and give me a refund.......
What a disappointment but thanks for trying them out for us all. When I say your pictures I thought the magnets looked big 2mm height? but I thought they must know what they are doing
Quote from: rhysapthomas on December 20, 2013, 07:14:28 PM
What a disappointment but thanks for trying them out for us all. When I say your pictures I thought the magnets looked big 2mm height? but I thought they must know what they are doing
I assumed they did too, they've a good track record with most of their products. Unless I'm missing something.....?
Anyway, we'll see how they reply to my email. Feels a real con to be honest.
ones thoughts are dashing throu' the brain here - ha ha Tri-ang magnatesion !
your reed switch's will have a field day :laugh: , any thing magnetic will be attracted to the bottom of the loco - o' remember to remove the Rolex (or whatever) they are not bullet proof :dunce: !
simple answer is stick to Bullfrog Snot - one jar will do the lot - and all your friends at the club .
alan
This sounds disappointing Scotty but also a bit odd. Hattons appear to sell super thin magnets for N in packs of twenty. Maybe the base N pack suits Code 80 but the sunk into the sleepers aspect of Code 55 needs the thin magnets ?
Phoning Hattons may be better than email.
I don't think Code 80 vs code 55 will make any difference to the maximum magnet size. If the magnet goes below the top of the rail then it will hit something every time it goes over a set of points, however deep the rail is.
Is it possible to make a magnet-shaped hole in the bottom of the plastic fuel tank and glue the magnet somehow to the metal chassis inside? I imagine this would be a little tricky as it would have to retain the ability to split the halves of the chassis for maintenance and also avoid making electrical contact between the two halves.
I've had a reply from DCC Concepts, which sheds light. I'll post later.....when I'm sober!
Quote from: ScottyStitch on December 21, 2013, 11:10:18 PM
I've had a reply from DCC Concepts, which sheds light. I'll post later.....when I'm sober!
Hi folks, apologies for the delay in updating this thread. The following are the meat and bones from an email conversation with Richard from DCC Concepts: (I've copy and pasted the paragraphs verbatim so the typos are Richard's.)
QuoteWith the N pack, as with the OO standard magnet selection, there are some the standard will fit but also some it will not. The same applies to narrow gauge, O scale or others - the final magnet selection will depend on the loco construction. ( for OO, a fret of brass magnet hangers is also needed for large wheel locos to keep the magnets close to the track).
With the powerbase magnets for ANY scale, the size and placement will vary with the locomotive. placing the right sized magnet in the right place is important. So... Irrespective of scale, the same standard magnet cannot possibly give the best result all engines even if it fitted them all - that is why we have made the additional magnet packs available from the very beginning.
All you need is the added magnet pack. The added magnet pack for N is the DCX-PBMXS pack and it includes a wide range of smaller magnets and it contains a selection that will definately allow those our locos to be fitted.
The best online reference right now is our UK distributor - gaugemaster have them all up from memory. The magnet pack discussed has everything from really tiny magnets to go into the corners of a Farish tender to thinner magnets for where there is little room under a tank loco. Its very much a "tailored for N" pack.
Yes, we are adding a special manual for N Powerbase which I HOPE will go up on all dealer websites - they tend to forget unless we remind them a lot. We will also do a special Utube manual for installation in the early new year - I have just runout of time this year unfortunately!
So there you have it.
Unfortunately nowhere on the Value Pack nor on Hattons website is there mention of the fact that there are different sized magnets for different applications. Also, as some of you will be aware, the DCC Concepts website at the moment is a bit of a mess and largely unreadable. When I looked, I certainly didn't see any mention of Powerbase.
Anyway, I've ordered the magnet pack from Gaugemaster (Hattons don't have t listed on their site) so we'll see what that brings.
Scotty
Thanks for the update Scotty, so there's still hope it may work. :thumbsup:
Quote from: whiteswan on December 30, 2013, 04:08:35 PM
Thanks for the update Scotty, so there's still hope it may work. :thumbsup:
No problem, Caz.
I suppose my next concern is, if the magnets are smaller or thinner, will they still be effective in the climb? We'll see. If it means having to use more magnets per engine, I'm happy to take the hit to make the helix work.
Quote from: ScottyStitch on December 30, 2013, 03:52:53 PM
So there you have it.
Unfortunately nowhere on the Value Pack nor on Hattons website is there mention of the fact that there are different sized magnets for different applications.
You have more patience than I, I'd be sending it back as 'not fit for purpose'.
After your perseverance I hope this works out well for you.
Cheers
Dave
I guess there are plenty of suppliers of small magnets who put their catalogues on the net, and particularly if you need lots of the same size this might be a better option than buying an assortment most of which may be of no use.
As per my post of 21 December Scotty.
Anyway glad you got there in the end.
Quote from: DCCDave on December 30, 2013, 04:22:36 PM
Quote from: ScottyStitch on December 30, 2013, 03:52:53 PM
So there you have it.
Unfortunately nowhere on the Value Pack nor on Hattons website is there mention of the fact that there are different sized magnets for different applications.
You have more patience than I, I'd be sending it back as 'not fit for purpose'.
After your perseverance I hope this works out well for you.
Cheers
Dave
Hi Dave
Trust me, if it had been anything else I would have given up. But I really want the helix to work with my ten coach trains so I'll explore as many avenues as I can. I didn't believe an outfit like DCC Concepts would bring a product to market without ensuring it works and so I took them to task. So fingers crossed!
Scotty
Quote from: edwin_m on December 30, 2013, 04:32:38 PM
I guess there are plenty of suppliers of small magnets who put their catalogues on the net, and particularly if you need lots of the same size this might be a better option than buying an assortment most of which may be of no use.
Part of the Powerbase splurge is that these magnets are more powerful than standard Neo magnets. I don't know how much of that is hype, but I'll see if the concept works first and if it does I'll experiment with other devices.
Just thought I'd post a wee up-date.
I had ordered a set of mini-magnets from Gaugemaster (DCC Concepts' UK Reps) but unfortunately they are out of stock. Therefore I'm still in limbo with regard to whether my helix will work in with the layout.
It's a waiting game, but then it gives me more time to do more research on the layout, and that's always an enjoyable thing.
As I mentioned on my planning thread, I received the mini-magnets from Gaugemaster.
Long story short, Powerbase with 4 of the best fitting magnets made no difference to the haulage power of my WD 2-8-0, the worst performer in an incline that I have.
As it turns out I think i can get pretty much get what I want from a helix at 1 in 100, with a 2inch left per revolution. If need be I'll bank or double head any engines that struggle.
So the upshot is, I'm abandoning Powerbase.
Just thought I'd update for anyone interested.
That's a big shame as after reading the write ups they got in most magazines it sounded too good to be true.
Oh, it was ! :confused1: :doh:
But thanks for all the info provided :beers:
Steve
Sorry if I've missed it somewhere, but have you fed this back to DCC Concepts?
:beers:
Quote from: stevieboy on January 28, 2014, 09:13:34 AM
Sorry if I've missed it somewhere, but have you fed this back to DCC Concepts?
Yes I have fed my findings to DCC Concepts. And I am still to experiment with the largest magnets in the pack, although I don't think they will clear point work due to their size, so it's a moot point, but I'm just curious.
I have noticed that the only videos I've seen of it on action is on OO models, I don't know I'd that is significant or not, but I've never seen a practical example
of it in N. I'm sure it will work in certain situations, just not mine with the WD.
Either way, it doesn't look like I'll strictly need it for what I want.
Superb, whilst not for me, this system has it's uses and I'm sure DCC will look into it if it's notso good for N.
Quote from: ScottyStitch on January 27, 2014, 08:38:25 PM
As I mentioned on my planning thread, I received the mini-magnets from Gaugemaster.
Long story short, Powerbase with 4 of the best fitting magnets made no difference to the haulage power of my WD 2-8-0, the worst performer in an incline that I have.
As it turns out I think i can get pretty much get what I want from a helix at 1 in 100, with a 2inch left per revolution. If need be I'll bank or double head any engines that struggle.
So the upshot is, I'm abandoning Powerbase.
Just thought I'd update for anyone interested.
Disappointing Scotty after all the effort and the waiting.
Did it make any improvement on a not so big incline? Maybe your requirements are too much for any gizmo.
Quote from: ParkeNd on January 28, 2014, 07:36:26 PM
Quote from: ScottyStitch on January 27, 2014, 08:38:25 PM
As I mentioned on my planning thread, I received the mini-magnets from Gaugemaster.
Long story short, Powerbase with 4 of the best fitting magnets made no difference to the haulage power of my WD 2-8-0, the worst performer in an incline that I have.
As it turns out I think i can get pretty much get what I want from a helix at 1 in 100, with a 2inch left per revolution. If need be I'll bank or double head any engines that struggle.
So the upshot is, I'm abandoning Powerbase.
Just thought I'd update for anyone interested.
Disappointing Scotty after all the effort and the waiting.
Did it make any improvement on a not so big incline? Maybe your requirements are too much for any gizmo.
The inclines I tested were 1 in 89 and 1 in 100 with similar results. The videos from dcc concepts show OO on inclines of 1 in 30, but you may be right maybe it's still to much for N. Having said that, nearly everything I have can pull ten coaches (albeit blue riband) anyway so no need for power base in any case?
I had hoped to use it to increase the incline ratio, just to save track and space but it's no great hardship, I'm grateful that I have the space for the bigger helix in any case.
I may be wrong, and maybe someone else will try it with different results, and I'd be delighted to be corrected...........
As I say I'll try it again with another (too big) set of magnets at some point.
Here's a reply from Rand Cooley to my query about whether the problems with GWR tank engines had been sorted out...
"There has been some speculation arising about the usability of the magnets on N scale locos and from what we can see it is mainly people who are unwilling to modify their locos or get the accessory magnet pack that includes various magnet sizes. The ones we include with the plates are just a standard magnet size but seeing that all locos are different depending on the loco type and manufacture so we can't make one magnet fit all. Saying this we have fitted magnets to a Hall class, 08 class, Jinty and many others which in some cases involves cutting out a gap in the brake rodding and using thinner magnets super glued to the underside of the base plate.
"You can get our extreme magnet pack for the N scale locos and try and see what works and then get more from places like Super magnet man in the US which sells similar magnets sizes but you can buy then in bulk amount of specific sizes.
"We will be making videos soon showing more on the installation of the magnets for a good range of locos to visually show how we do it and enabling people to see better how it can be done."
:hmmm:
Yes, I could spend pounds on the bases and on the extreme magnet pack, but not until I know that it will work with my locos! Let's see what the videos show.
David
I think it's also a bit rich, considering the advertising splurge saying you don't need to modify the locomotives. Am I going to cut up my WD to fit a bigger magnet to find that it still might not work? Or the bigger magnet interferes with the motor? No.
As far as I'm concerned, in N Gauge, it's not fit for purpose.
Hi, having read through this 2 to 3 year old thread, I'm wondering if the problems have been resolved with this system? Has anyone on here used it successfully or is it still not recommended? TIA.
Mmm, guess no updates.
Tempted to give it a go myself with some 1mm thick magnets. I've got a hidden gradient which most stuff can get up, but not the longer trains. As they're all modern they've got whopping great fuel tanks to attach magnets to. Dapol 66s are the worst.