Hi Guys,
Looks like Hattons and I guess other suppliers have got some Intercity Swallow Loco Hauled Mk3s in, priced at £19.
•2P-005-221 - 1st Class #11065
•2P-005-222 - 1st Class #11073
•2P-005-231 - 2nd Class #12004
•2P-005-232 - 2nd Class #12019
•2P-005-233 - 2nd Class #12037
Cheers, Mark.
Good spot, but no Brake Van listed surely they ran with one does anyone know?
I wonder are these the right era to have been hauled by the Farish Titan? Could be interested if they were.
Ray
Quote from: REGP on December 08, 2013, 11:34:52 AM
I wonder are these the right era to have been hauled by the Farish Titan? Could be interested if they were.
Couple photos on Google (here (http://andygibbs.zenfolio.com/p726940309/h29172FCA#h29172fca) and here (http://www.hondawanderer.com/47612_Yarnton_1987.htm)) seem to suggest pretty much anything goes!
I've already bought 47612 'Titan' and it's a lovely model. But I was a bit disappointed by the height difference between the Farish Mk1s and Mk2s. Jumbling the two models in the same train looks odd. I wonder how well the Dapol Mk3s match the Farish Mk2s in height? Alternatively, any quick fixes for making the Farish Mk2s a millimetre taller than they are?
Cheers, NeMo
Hi Ray,
I'm no expert on coaching configurations, but I've seen some West Coast traffic video taken from the era with an 86/87 at one end and either a DBSO or DVT at the other. I'm pretty sure they sometimes dragged a Mk1 GUV with modified bogies too.
As the Titan is in the correct livery, I would assume it's good to go. It will be for me anyway :D
Dapol has also produced their 86 in Swallow livery along with a DVT.
Cheers, Mark.
Thanks for that link NeMo, certainly a mixture of liveries there, but don't know enough to work out which Mark carriages they might be, but will keep looking.
Like you I hope the new Dapol Mk 3's will match the Titan.
Ray
The first picture seems to have a mixture of Mk1 and Mk2 stock, the second looks to be Mk2. I've just been 'Googling' but can't find any evidence of a 47 pulling Mk3 stock in that era yet.
Not conclusive for me as you can't see the underframes, but the interior looks like Mk3 stock (at 4:14 in the video)- http://youtu.be/zqVyfE7-SMY?t=4m14s (http://youtu.be/zqVyfE7-SMY?t=4m14s)
Loco hauled Mk3 sets ran with Mk1 (NEA or NHA on WCML) or Mk2 (on WCML often Mk2D BSOs) brakes until the DVTs were built. IIRC there were 3 x Mk3B BFOs built, but they were an exception rather than the norm.
Cheers
Mike
Quote from: Vonzack on December 08, 2013, 12:17:30 PM
Not conclusive for me as you can't see the underframes, but the interior looks like Mk3 stock (at 4:14 in the video)- http://youtu.be/zqVyfE7-SMY?t=4m14s (http://youtu.be/zqVyfE7-SMY?t=4m14s)
Yes that's definitely mk3 stock the 47 is pulling. The fact that it was coupled to a DVT would suggest this was a "drag" which often happened when there were engineering works on the WCML which meant diverting over non-electrified routes. Usually the 86/87 would be taken off and the 47 put on.
For some odd reason Farish have always made the mk2s ride too low, and the new tooling coaches are no different. The way I have got round this is to take the bogies off and insert spacers made from hole-punched plasticard offcuts.
Thanks for your help guys.
That a very useful video Vonzack, Mike and Chris thanks for your observations the are a big help
Have just been comparing the height of the Farish Titan against a Dapol HST MK3 SO and they look OK to me.
So if the tooling for the loco hauled is the same I could go for a few.
Ray
The mkiii coaches had all the equipment between the bogies covered the same as hst coaches
Steve
HST trailers are also Mk3 coaches. The loco hauled version are Mk3a.
The main differences for modellers are the buffers (not fitted to HST Mk3s), slightly different roof detail. They also had different electrical wiring - HSTs I think have three phase electrics and use a different multiple working system.
Happy modelling.
Steven B.
Hi All,
Thought I'd bump this thread up rather than starting a new one. Just posted this on another forum but it's certainly bound to be of interest here so I thought I'd share it for others modelling the same era.
I've just been on the phone to Dapol regarding a couple of Intercity Swallow items which I pre-ordered from Rails of Sheffield a couple of weeks ago. The DVT in this livery (the corrected livery, that is) is unfortunately still 3 to 4 months away, however the following items, which the Dapol website lists either as "Awaiting Production" or "In Transit", have actually arrived and should be in the process of being shipped out to suppliers. I already have the buffet coach but I'm tempted to add another 1st and two more standards to the order to get myself a full rake in one sweep:
2P-005-221 MK 3 I/CITY SWALLOW 1st CLASS # 11065 loco hauled
2P-005-222 MK 3 I/CITY SWALLOW 1st CLASS # 11073 loco hauled
2P-005-231 MK 3 I/CITY SWALLOW 2nd CLASS # 12004 loco hauled
2P-005-232 MK 3 I/CITY SWALLOW 2nd CLASS # 12019 loco hauled
2P-005-233 MK 3 I/CITY SWALLOW 2nd CLASS # 12037 loco hauled
Cheers,
JB
Edit: Hang on, I've just noticed these reference numbers are exactly the same as those in the first post... What's going on here then? Have these been released or not? How is it that the Rails of Sheffield website lists them as pre-order items, the Dapol website lists them as in transit, and yet Hattons seem to have been selling them since December?
What constitutes a 'correct livery' for Dapol :D
They're getting there, gradually. Just a shame so many of us have bought stock only to find out on arrival that there are errors which can't always be seen in photographs... I called Rails earlier on to find out why these were on pre-order when other suppliers have been selling them since December; I've just had an e-mail from them to say their order wasn't shipped by Dapol at the time but that it's apparently now on its way to them, which means I'll get my coaches at some point next week I'd imagine (overseas shipping).
Now if I can just find an excuse to buy one of those lovely C&M sets and run a Glasgow-Chester-Edinburgh service then I'll be a happy man :D
JB
Quote from: Vonzack on December 08, 2013, 12:17:30 PMThe first picture seems to have a mixture of Mk1 and Mk2 stock, the second looks to be Mk2. I've just been 'Googling' but can't find any evidence of a 47 pulling Mk3 stock in that era yet
Sunday only between Glasgow Central and Carlisle, prior to 1996
Although from 1992 several of these services had swapped to HST
Southbound all departures before 13:00 were hauled by Class 47 and routed via Kilmarnock
This included at least one ECS working as well
Northbound there would be one working, typically arriving into Glasgow Central around 17:00
Didn't a batch of these have Intercity 125 on them, perhaps one set of codes are the wrong ones?
Quote from: simonprelude on March 17, 2014, 02:50:00 PM
Didn't a batch of these have Intercity 125 on them, perhaps one set of codes are the wrong ones?
They had different product codes and were Exec livery loco hauled stock.
The "Intercity 125 logo on loco-hauled coaches" blunder affected the loco-hauled coaches in IC Executive livery, rather than IC Swallow. The references for those were in the 2P-005-1xx range, and the more honest retailers list them as having a livery error. The new IC Swallow coaches have the 2P-005-22x reference numbers and completely replace the old NC-xxxx Swallow references, which also suffered from livery problems (namely not actually being in IC Swallow colours...). Dapol reference numbers are a complete minefield, but having already been burned once by these livery "variations" I'm now very cautious!
Looking forward to being able to put together a nine-coach rake with a DVT on the back (once the corrected DVT is released!) :D
Cheers,
JB
Which livery is correct for the DVT then?
I have the DVT 82116 in Intercity Swallow livery, is this one correct or should I sell it on.
ND-089C I'm looking at creating a mixture of class 86/87 and class 90 workings.
A correctly-liveried Intercity DVT has yet to be released unfortunately. The current Intercity DVT is basically Executive livery with Swallow logos. The colours match Dapol's older - incorrectly-coloured - IC Swallow Mk3 stock (and the Exec stock, which they shouldn't match), but they don't match the corrected stock which has been released more recently.
The corrected IC Swallow DVT is due in three or four months according to Dapol - reference 2D-017-002.
JB
Can't find the buffet car on Hattons - someone mentioned already having one - is it still available? What is the product code? Is it the right colour?
What is a typical formation? Loco (class 86?), 3 x first, buffet, 5 x second, DVT? Also was there a different coach with the guard or did he/she go in the DVT?
Brooksy
What period and location are you after? In the mid 80s before the DVTs arrived you often got mixes of Mk2s and Mk3s or Mk3s with a Mk1 full brake. There were only 3 Mk3 brakes ever built (Mk3b BFOs).
The guard would either be in the brake or in the DVT when they had been manufactured.
Cheers, Mike
Quote from: red_death on March 18, 2014, 01:50:31 PM
Brooksy
What period and location are you after? In the mid 80s before the DVTs arrived you often got mixes of Mk2s and Mk3s or Mk3s with a Mk1 full brake. There were only 3 Mk3 brakes ever built (Mk3b BFOs).
The guard would either be in the brake or in the DVT when they had been manufactured.
Cheers, Mike
Mike,
Thanks for the reply. I thought the Swallow livery started in 1987 (from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/InterCity_%28British_Rail%29 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/InterCity_%28British_Rail%29)) but for me the time period is not that important as I run a mix of both time and place(/country) (Rule No1) but I like to have each set to be at least close to prototypical. So running with a DVT, what is a typical or fairly common set composition. Were there any MK1 or MK2 brakes in swallow livery (or did they use ones from different liveries)?
Cheers,
Brooksy
Quote from: Brooksy on March 18, 2014, 01:41:21 PM
Can't find the buffet car on Hattons - someone mentioned already having one - is it still available? What is the product code? Is it the right colour?
I have one myself and they match the newer / corrected Swallow livery, there's quite a difference when compared to the older version of the stock (see below). The reference number for the loco-hauled Swallow buffet is 2P-005-211, Rails of Sheffield have them in stock.
Quote
What is a typical formation? Loco (class 86?), 3 x first, buffet, 5 x second, DVT? Also was there a different coach with the guard or did he/she go in the DVT?
As Mike says, it all depends on period and location. I'm modelling the Chester area so what I used to see was a mix of the following:
47 (+ sometimes an 86/87 trailing) + 2/3xFO + RUB + 5/6xSO + DVT
47 + DVT + 2/3xFO + RUB + 5/6xSO (+ sometimes an 86/87 on the back)
47 + random Mk1/Mk2 brake + 2xFO + RUB + 5xSO + random Mk1/Mk2 brake (before the arrival of DVTs)
Occasionally you'd see a 47 + DVT + ten Mk3s, mainly during the summer months.
Beautiful rakes though in that livery, which is why it's so annoying to have colour mismatches!
JB
(http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g268/jivebunnystudios/photo_zps1b9fc847.jpg)
Quote from: Brooksy on March 18, 2014, 02:43:18 PM
So running with a DVT, what is a typical or fairly common set composition.
The typical WCML sets that I was catching in the mid-late '90s were typically 10 car formations running as (from the London end) DVT/FO/FO/FO/RFM/TSO/TSO/TSO/TSO/TSO whether they were Mk2 or Mk3 formed. The only real variation was one less FO meant one more TSO, and the Mk3 formed trains were almost always all Mk3 coaches. The Mk2 formed trains always used aircons (Mk2d/e/f) and ran with a Mk3 catering vehicle by this time, it was highly unusual to see Mk2 and Mk3 FO/TSO mixing together.
Quote from: Brooksy on March 18, 2014, 02:43:18 PMWere there any MK1 or MK2 brakes in swallow livery (or did they use ones from different liveries)?
Cheers,
Brooksy
Prior to the arrival of the DVTs the trains ran with an NEA, which was basically a BG cleared for high speed running and rode on B4 bogies. Most of the NEA that I saw were in unbranded Intercity Exec livery (known affectionately as Raspberry Ripple livery), so were basically identical to
INTERCITY Mk2 and Mk3 stock, but I did see a few Blue/Grey vehicles from time to time. The same can be said for the RFM, before these arrived catering was provided by ageing Mk1 RB coaches in either unbranded IC Exec or Blue/Grey livery, and there is plenty of video evidence on youtube of the above formation using either Mk2 aircon or Mk3 coaches with the Mk1 predecessors to the RFM and DVT, they were very much set formations for some time before the new Mk3 vehicles were introduced. If you step back a few years further into the mid '80s the formations begin to get very mixed up, it was certainly not uncommon to see vehicles from Mk1, Mk2 (both aircon and pressure ventilated) and Mk3 all in one train with the guard provided anything from a BG to a Mk2f BSO (or two...or more).
The forthcoming Farish aircon Mk2 BSO will probably be available in
INTERCITY livery, but by the time this livery came about I think that the WCML and XC had settled into fixed sets more or less, the BSO was more an XC fixture by then and the pressure ventilated Mk2s were a dying breed on main line services. With the
INTERCITY liveried Mk3 stock you're looking really at Mk1 RB and NEA in unbranded InterCity or Blue/Grey for early in the period, and DVT/RFM for the 90's onward.
edit ~ THIS VIDEO (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Feov72lRlFw#) from 1991 captures the early DVT era very nicely, with some locomotives hauling from the DVT end, as well as the ubiquitous formation (shown beautifully at 58 seconds).
Quote from: jivebunny on March 18, 2014, 03:33:55 PM
Beautiful rakes though in that livery, which is why it's so annoying to have colour mismatches!
JB
I think they look rather good too and am tempted to make a set. That's when I did a lot of my early intercity travelling and remember them fondly. Although, I mainly travelled on HSTs Paddington/Bristol, I fancy a loco hauled set as I have an HST in Midland Mainline livery and am thinking my next HST will be in BR blue, whenever that may be.
Thanks for all the info! :NGaugersRule:
Quote from: Zunnan on March 18, 2014, 06:57:02 PM
THIS VIDEO from 1991 captures the early DVT era very nicely, with some locomotives hauling from the DVT end, as well as the ubiquitous formation (shown beautifully at 58 seconds).
Nice! I notice that most of the passenger trains has 87s on them - would be nice to have one of them in the correct livery to pull it. Also like that last parcels (I presume) train with an NSE 86 and mismatch of different coaches behind - you don't see them like that anymore!
Thanks also for the info on train formations. :claphappy: