Bachmann prices are skyrocketing in order to keep up with rising wages and social changes in China and Dapol's ambitious release schedules in N seem to be in tatters, with the long-promised Class 50 possibly being another year off and still no progress on other much-anticipated releases.
So, what's the verdict? Are the days of "You've never had it so good" drawing to a close?
It had to happen - no more days production for a handful of rice. Perhaps it is time to bring production back to the UK, to help with the unemployment figures and balance of payments deficit. Similar problem coming soon to the lightweight motorcycle/scooter industry, where even some of the big brands are made in China. Also, Royal Enfield motorcycles from India are getting better, as the locals demand better, and the prices are going up accordingly.
I think you are probably right. Up to now model railways have been astonishingly cheap compared with other hobbies such as photography.
In cycling most of the transmission parts are made in China. Over the past 18 months those parts have increased so much in price that a £1500 bike now has the standard of parts that were on a £1000 bike.
Do we know exactly how long it takes to build one model Loco, all the different processes it goes through to get to the final stage, all in all I think I will not buy as many as I wanted to, but it will not stop me from buying them, but I think careful thoughts on which model to buy will be key, there are always times when Loco's get reduced in price and that will be a key thought in buying future models.
I think when the price does go any higher then one will want a top quality crafted Loco.
Its interesting to look at prices now compared with the 1950s, 60s and 70s. With the crash in living standards post banker induced mayhem and the rising prices we seem (as far as I can work out) to be about where we were in the mid 1970s in terms of affordability. Compared to the 1950s and 1960s were are doing rather nicely. Remembering that the models are massively better and the range much bigger I don't think we are doing too badly !
It's not entirely a fair comparison because in the mid 1970s the difference between low end and high end wages was vastly less - so I guess we have some modellers who think its never been so cheap and some who are way worse off than mid 70s.
The other thing happening which is really interesting and I think reflects the wages cost shift quite dramatically is that kit prices and some UK prices for UK built models and track etc have stayed fairly flat while Chinese RTR has gone up and up.
It will be fun to see what Bachmann, as a Chinese company do in the face of all of this, and also to what extent improvements in 3D printing will put the cat amongst the pigeons.
Alan
Nice to know in some respects that even China etc cannot go on forever being cheap.
Quotewhat extent improvements in 3D printing will put the cat amongst the pigeons.
Although I think this may hold the key. Western world "cheap" plastic items not "Taiwanese"
As we have all seen the creations from 3D printing are improving and more and more items/printers are appearing on the horizon.
The cost of 3D printing will in true terms come down and I see a day in the not too distant future where we download our print requirement, wander down to the local Supermarket USB stick in hand to get our kit/piece whatever. Or as 3D printers drop in price the home print market, like home PCs, will enable a large number of us to sit down and became almost self sufficient creators. The Print industry has been devastated by cheap home printers for photos etc in the same way Kodak suffered at the hands of digital cameras.
However, the demand for good quality design work as always will be the crux of the issue and CAD is not something easily learnt overnight.
As the Chinese become more affluent and demand more wages, you will see production move to India, then somewhere else after.......
Eventually things will go full circle and i'm sure manufacturing of model railways will return to the UK.
As for prices, as long as we have competition within the UK, then generally prices will not rocket too much.
Lets face it, Dapol and Farish locos can be bought 20% less than the RRP at all the big on line sellers.
I think we still have it good at present and probably will for a while to come.
Interesting topic.
D'ya know what....
I think prices are incredibly low for pretty nicely made, precision items with such vanishingly tiny production runs. Even at RRP of £100+ it is amazing for runs of a few hundred locos; at Hattons or Ebay ~£50-£60 prices it is gobsmacking. If anyone watches "How It's Made" on quest you can see that items like golf clubs are made by the 10s or 100s of thousands, and still cost more than an N gauge loco.
If prices rose to ~£200 per loco, it would still be good value IMHO - even though it would seem steep having had it so good for quite a while.
We should count our blessings!!!
Cheers Jon :)
Quote from: trainsdownunder on November 25, 2013, 10:30:39 PM
However, the demand for good quality design work as always will be the crux of the issue and CAD is not something easily learnt overnight.
It's something which is taught extensively and 3D print is an activity in many places nowdays. The tools are also improving and the scanning kit likewise. At that point model railways start to work rather like train sims, and you don't need to be a guru to relivery a model or add a detail item.
Mechanisms on the other hand...
Alan
Quote from: OwL on November 25, 2013, 10:33:28 PM
As the Chinese become more affluent and demand more wages, you will see production move to India, then somewhere else after.......
Eventually things will go full circle and i'm sure manufacturing of model railways will return to the UK.
Already happening - Hornby have moved their Humbrol paint range back to being made in UK and it's reported their Airfix aircraft kit range is heading back to the UK too.
Cheers,
Alan
Quote from: PostModN66 on November 25, 2013, 10:43:54 PM
If prices rose to ~£200 per loco, it would still be good value IMHO - even though it would seem steep having had it so good for quite a while.
I think if they rose to that it'd seriously affect the number of new people joining the hobby (which to me is the majorly important thing in the slightly longer term) - you'd be talking over £300 probably for a simple train set including such a loco, which I think would make many walk straight on past...
Cheers,
Alan
Quote from: Dr Al on November 26, 2013, 12:21:55 AM
Quote from: OwL on November 25, 2013, 10:33:28 PM
As the Chinese become more affluent and demand more wages, you will see production move to India, then somewhere else after.......
Eventually things will go full circle and i'm sure manufacturing of model railways will return to the UK.
Already happening - Hornby have moved their Humbrol paint range back to being made in UK and it's reported their Airfix aircraft kit range is heading back to the UK too.
Companies will move manufacturing back to UK just as soon as the immigrant population will work for lower wages than the Chinese and as soon as we are prepared to let the Chinese stop polluting their country to aid us hitting EU targets.
There are probably a lot of places that work can be moved to before that happens though.
Railway Modelling is very very cheap. If N Gauge locos cost £200 each you could still buy 7 or 8 per year for the price of a lower mid range digital camera body and just one lens. DCC looks like the only expensive part of our hobby at the moment.
Quote from: ParkeNd on November 26, 2013, 12:43:01 AM
There are probably a lot of places that work can be moved to before that happens though.
Not really. China right now is a special case. They have enormous experience in the field, specialist tooling expertise, and considerable efficiencies through scale. It's also a country which has relatively good infrastructure.
Setting all that up somewhere else is hard. Most of the places you could set it up are not politically stable (in areas your expensive factory may be seized, turned into a crater or other things of that nature) and/or have endemic corruption problems way beyond those China has.
It also doesn't fix your transport costs (which are soaring) and the problems caused by long turnarounds, lack of control, and of language and culture.
Also you don't bring it back "as is", you look to bring it back smarter and more mechanised with less staff making more products with better machinery.
Alan
The price of everything will be affected by a more affluent China as they become able to afford more of the things that we take for granted - including food.
...R
I am just wondering what shipping costs are now compared to 10 years ago and yes the cycle will come back to the UK for manufacturing one day, and if Loco's do hit the £200 mark what would we expect from them ie sound lights in the cab etc, there must be different aspects that the model manufacturers look at to justify increases in these models.
Quote from: captainelectra on November 25, 2013, 08:09:46 PM
Bachmann prices are skyrocketing in order to keep up with rising wages and social changes in China and Dapol's ambitious release schedules in N seem to be in tatters, with the long-promised Class 50 possibly being another year off and still no progress on other much-anticipated releases.
So, what's the verdict? Are the days of "You've never had it so good" drawing to a close?
with all respect to all what's writen I think most of it doesn't hit the target.
wages and social changes are not the main issue, for them who know me know that I am quit a bit in China and do lots of business with them.
the problem is not the wages, yes they go up but 50 % of nothing is still nothing and people are still earning per week less then people on benefit here per day.
The problem is more the rising cost of raw materials, cost of shipping and more important the higher margin wholesalers / manufacturers need to cover overheads down to local taxes and to cover the cost ( and ow I say something really naughty and will be shot ) of all those people who are returning products which are not faulty ( and Yes this is a UK mentality ) because they can't be bother to have a little look themselves are accept that sometimes needs to be repaired.
Although I would stress out that we all are supporting doubt able quality because we expect a lot for less. If we all are willing to pay twice the price like you pay for the European brands like Fleischmann, minitrix etc the problems should be almost zero , from experience I never had any issues with FLeischmann or Minitrix but for the price of one loco I can buy three Dapols/ GF's.
anyway I think a difficult and complicated discussion and everybody will have his own thoughts. Personally bring production back to the UK, make the product twice the price and an equal quality as the German ones is fine for me, happy to pay this but I think I am a minority.
( and please don't hit me to hard for sharing my thoughts. )
Quote from: Maurits71 on November 26, 2013, 12:56:48 PM
If we all are willing to pay twice the price like you pay for the European brands like Fleischmann, minitrix etc the problems should be almost zero , from experience I never had any issues with FLeischmann or Minitrix but for the price of one loco I can buy three Dapols/ GF's.
I don't agree - throwing money at the problem won't necessarily solve anything.
Reduction of some problems will come from expert design, designing out problems at the drawing board stage. We are seeing this to some level now - e.g. wiper pickups that caused problems on some Farish stock are being designed out of the equation these days. However, while there are plenty of improvements in this way, there have been plenty of design horrors (*thinks Dapol B1 drivetrain*) and poor choices too, which is partly why we have problems still.
IMHO these mechanisms are very simple in the grand scheme of things - it should be possible to get it right at the current price point IMHO.
QC is the other side of the coin that is the cause of many problems. Again some of the problems that might result can be designed out (e.g. Dapol's square end axles to negate any possible wheel quartering issues - Farish would do well to adopt similar)).
Personally I think the "I'll pay more for x, y, z to be better" is all very well in theory, but may ultimately cut sales in the long run, and put new people off joining the hobby.
And that's very important IMHO.
Cheers,
Alan
Quote from: Maurits71 on November 26, 2013, 12:56:48 PM
really naughty and will be shot ) of all those people who are returning products which are not faulty ( and Yes this is a UK mentality ) because they can't be bother to have a little look themselves are accept that sometimes needs to be repaired.
Its not quite "of nothing". Average Chinese manufacturing wages are now about $US2.20/hr but you need to add various benefits on top of it. Government policy is that the minimum wage should rise about 14% a year. Real wages are rising much more sharply. It's still not a lot.
On one specific point I disagree. If it needs repairing its faulty. It's also essential that this gets sorted because right now the world of model railways for the young is becoming known for
"buy trainset for christmas"
"doesn't work"
"tears"
"returned"
"tell friends never to buy a train set"
And yes - fixing it probably needs slightly higher prices on locomotives, as well as much smarter design. Doing more stuff in the UK would also help because it changes the business model from "sign off, pray, wait six months, ship regardless" to one that is actively managed and where learning from one product is available in time to improve the next and even re-runs.
If you've ever reassembled a Kato loco compared to a UK one it's obvious just how much extra design thinking has gone into the Kato model. It all just slots together, it can't be put together wrongly without real effort, there is almost no soldering and what there is has been machine soldered and there are very few delicate bits that can be misaligned or damaged during assembly.
Alan
I'd like to see (as the government says) in real terms what would the price of a Minitrix A4 be nowadays. I'm sure they were nearly £100 back in the early to mid 80's.
£100 in 1985 is £256.86 today using the official inflation data
You really need to look at disposable income as well which is a good deal more complicated, especially when you compare a time that far back with the modern south east where house price insanity distorts everything massively.
Alan
Surely costs are all relative - my first n gauge loco I think was the then new Farish 91 and it cost about £60. My latest purchase was the Farish 70 at £100. Over a 20 year timespan, an increase of 66%, but the quality is barely comparable to the 91.
Average wages during the same period went up by about the same at 60% too, so it costs the same proportion of my earnings now as it did then.
Given house prices rose over 300% with little in the same jump of quality or standards, I think locos are still excellent value for what you get.
David
You will always have people who are in a position to throw money at their hobby. Most of us have to consider the mandatory bills in the first place...and hopefully be able to spend a little on our hobby/s. I once read that it was costing £17 to produce an N gauge Manor loco? We all know the cost of these to U.K. buyers, so is there a mass of other payments to be made that result in the price we pay? Are the profit margins so generous that box shifters can knock so much off of the RRP?
When making comparisons to the 60s-80s I think you need to consider the extras most of us pay for these days...mobile phones, Sky t.v , internet. Add to this that privatisation has lead to our energy, water/ sewerage and public transport bills rising substantially. Not trying to score a political point here, just stating the facts. There is a limit to what disposable income people have with their mandatory outgoings at the current time.
If the cost of Chinese produced items continues to rise then I'm sure we will see a return to manufacturing in the U.K. If production costs are more here then maybe manufacturers will need to re-visit their profit margins to keep price increases to a minimum. As I said at the start there will always be some who can spend without a second though, but these have to be far far outnumbered by the people who spend as and when they can. If items become too expensive, wherever they are produced, it will deter many from spending as frequently as they do now. In a nutshell if prices increase too much and too quickly I think the market will shrink. People will still buy, but less frequently. Just my two penny worth guys.
Quote from: Bmthtrains on November 26, 2013, 04:31:31 PM
Average wages during the same period went up by about the same at 60% too, so it costs the same proportion of my earnings now as it did then.
Given house prices rose over 300% with little in the same jump of quality or standards, I think locos are still excellent value for what you get.
Its a very hard comparison to make as it depends who you are and what you do. If you are a lower end income worker in the south east then not only have house prices gone up 300% but that salary now gets swallowed by mortage payments, petrol, energy, (increasingly also on university loans) etc to the point you have far less than you did then so the loco is very expensive. OTOH if you are relatively well paid and live in the many of the cheaper areas of the country your perception is likely to be very different.
There isn't a UK wide or general number. In real terms poor people (especially in the south east) and the well paid have had quite different experiences over the time.
Alan
Some very interesting comments.
What I will say is that a heck of a lot who have lost their jobs have found part-time employment the only option available to them. The increase in part time employment, and pro-rata loss of earnings, has resulted in a loss of spending power across the retail sector. Hence the number of shops closing their doors for the final time.
The only ones who are not being hit heavily are supermarkets...'cause we all need to eat!
Hi
An interesting thread. Prices seem to have risen by about 20% over the last three years. Well above inflation. Whatever the reason this is a big problem for the hobby.
In the same time the model detail has not changed all that much but it seems that Manufacturers are doing more to get their models prototype typical.
N gauge suffers from chronic shortages of product and both mainstream manufacturers get away with build, running and reliability faults that would be completely unacceptable in almost any other product.
Of course exchanges, guarantee repairs and bad publicity degrades the market and shortages of promised goods not on the market at the important time of Christmas will result in much of that available revenue being lost to the industry as other presents will be bought with it.
All this, and those rising prices, even if it is increasing retailers margins, must make them despair.
I will not buy a 2014 N gauge model at £160 just like I did not buy that last Peco model as I judged it too much to pay. I am in the happy position to afford these prices but I will not pay them as I feel that they are rip off prices from an industry that either cannot get its QC right, or just pretends to love its customers or is just downright inefficient - or all three at once!
If I could be sure my next purchase will be 100% perfect as it should be for a premium quality product then things might be different but I do not hold out much hope.
The 2014 prices hikes, and the poor quality, risk killing off the N Gauge market from any growth leaving only us few enthusiasts, and we are just a few. Without more, the writing may well be on the wall.
With ever more price rises I will be reducing my purchases and concentrating, while dexterity permits, to keep my existing fleet running.
What a sorry state !!
Cheers
Mac :beers: :beers: :beers:
Quote from: Dr Al on November 26, 2013, 12:24:21 AM
Quote from: PostModN66 on November 25, 2013, 10:43:54 PM
If prices rose to ~£200 per loco, it would still be good value IMHO - even though it would seem steep having had it so good for quite a while.
I think if they rose to that it'd seriously affect the number of new people joining the hobby (which to me is the majorly important thing in the slightly longer term) - you'd be talking over £300 probably for a simple train set including such a loco, which I think would make many walk straight on past...
Cheers,
Alan
Quite possibly - although I would reflect that may people have massive loco fleets, compared to the size of their layouts. Maybe we could just buy half the number of locos and still get most of the fun.
Cheers Jon :)
I look at ebay most days. It's my opinion that across the board the number of good quality items has decreased over the last Year. There's plenty of bits, oddments, and non-working locos though. I reckon more people are hanging on to what they have for a number of reasons. One could be that many of us are not too confident of the future, so are reluctant to sale things on. It's not so easy to afford a new loco if all you can get for work is e.g 24 hours per week on minimum wage.
We see a lot of brand new items being sold at considerably less than when first launched. Is this indicative of products not selling and/or peoples spending power being curbed?
The next couple of Years will be interesting.
At one time I was considering buying Farish's BR Blue Tornado but won't now, simply because I don't have so much money available for a loco that doesn't fit in with my plans.
However I can see more demand in the used market and I've spent far more on that sort of stuff than on newly-released models.
I'm already prepared for a contraction in spending power, due to rising costs of essentials like food and energy, buying only good quality used models with a proven track record (e.g. Minitrix) or stuff that can be easily serviceable over the long term (e.g. older Farish)
The other main point is that there's far less production slots available in the Far East now for model train manufacture and those available are given to models that give the best profit margins to the companies so production will increasingly become in dribs and drabs.
At some stage down the line there could be the situation where production of a specific model will be limited to how many pre-orders are arranged.
If you flick through the pages of the latest issue of "Railway Modeller" it's hard to believe there's a lack of money for model railways - I've never seen so many adverts for locos in the "larger scales" at £1000 +.
However, as EP pointed out, there are vast differences in purchasing power between different railway modellers.
I suspect that N gauge modellers are suffering more from the current difficulties than modellers in other scales.
Why would you model in N gauge if you lived in a mansion with a spare ballroom for the layout, or had a vast garden where you could model a main line with live steam pacifics ?
Best regards,
Joe
Quote from: joe cassidy on November 26, 2013, 06:55:13 PM
Why would you model in N gauge if you lived in a mansion with a spare ballroom for the layout,
So you could be accurate on the layout ? :angel: Mind ... just think how big it would be, built into a ballroom ! Impressive :thumbsup:
Quote
or had a vast garden where you could model a main line with live steam pacifics ?
Ah - now
there ya got me :thumbsup: Oh, the joys of having a fleet of garden LNER Pacifics !!! :P If it weren't for winter, why bother with anything else ? (other steam fans, please insert your preferred Company if it's not LNER ::))
Mike
Quote
or had a vast garden where you could model a main line with live steam pacifics ?
Ah - now
there ya got me :thumbsup: Oh, the joys of having a fleet of garden LNER Pacifics !!! :P If it weren't for winter, why bother with anything else ? (other steam fans, please insert your preferred Company if it's not LNER ::))
Mike
[/quote]
If I was a millionaire living in Shropshire with the east coast main line in my garden I might still have an N gauge layout in my study/library for the winter months.
I've heard that Shropshire is the coldest place in England in winter ?
Best regards,
Joe
Quote from: joe cassidy on November 26, 2013, 07:45:49 PM
If I was a millionaire living in Shropshire with the east coast main line in my garden I might still have an N gauge layout in my study/library for the winter months.
Yeah ... you need something to keep playing with :) Mind ... the winter could
also be for deep maintenance of the Pacifics !
Quote
I've heard that Shropshire is the coldest place in England in winter ?
Feels it sometimes, up this hill !!! Makes me glad I'm on the southern slopes - the northern ones get
really hit hard ! Just one of the joys of living in the sticks ::)
But I think Cumbria or Northumberland are likely colder, being further north.
Having had a break from railway modelling for a good few years, I was a bit dismayed at first by the prices of locos and stock these days, but I've been doing a bit of research. When I started in N gauge in the 1980s, you could buy something like a Farish Jinty for a bit under £20, or about the price of a tankful of petrol. I've fished out a RM from 1998 where a Jinty is advertised for £35, perhaps a bit more than a tank of petrol in those days. A current RM has a price of £60 for a Jinty in Jan 2014 ......... about the price of a tank of petrol! Considering the way prices of other commodities fluctuate, I think N gauge has stayed remarkably stable over the years.
(Incidentally, I think simonprelude's memory is playing him tricks - A Minitrix loco wouldn't have been anywhere near £100 in the early 80s. A 9F is advertised for that price in the 1998 RM.)
At the end of the day, we buy what we can afford and the manufacturers have to price their products accordingly.
Chris
I tend to wait until the big box-shifters clear out old stock...still very smug about my £40.00 Class 86.
At least we haven't got to the Hornby coach level with some of their recent LNER suburbans going for around £40.00 a pop.
Likewise Adam, I've basically given up buying stuff when it first comes out. If the dealers and vendor want to have some cozy deal where the prices are not far below RRP for a while then I'll just wait, and quite possibly forget and never buy the product.
I think my entire spend on new RTR this year has been the lowest for many years despite somehow acquiring a blue pullman.
I did buy another 86. I figure the Dapol ones are going to eventually need spares and that was a good price for a full set of spare parts 8)
Quote from: EtchedPixels on November 26, 2013, 11:03:06 AM
Quote from: ParkeNd on November 26, 2013, 12:43:01 AM
There are probably a lot of places that work can be moved to before that happens though.
Not really. China right now is a special case. They have enormous experience in the field, specialist tooling expertise, and considerable efficiencies through scale. It's also a country which has relatively good infrastructure.
Setting all that up somewhere else is hard. Most of the places you could set it up are not politically stable (in areas your expensive factory may be seized, turned into a crater or other things of that nature) and/or have endemic corruption problems way beyond those China has.
It also doesn't fix your transport costs (which are soaring) and the problems caused by long turnarounds, lack of control, and of language and culture.
Also you don't bring it back "as is", you look to bring it back smarter and more mechanised with less staff making more products with better machinery.
Alan
Turkey, Taiwan, India, Mexico, Poland, Malta, Tunisia, Southern Spain, Bulgaria, -------------
Quote from: Dr Al on November 26, 2013, 12:21:55 AM
Quote from: OwL on November 25, 2013, 10:33:28 PM
As the Chinese become more affluent and demand more wages, you will see production move to India, then somewhere else after.......
Eventually things will go full circle and i'm sure manufacturing of model railways will return to the UK.
Already happening - Hornby have moved their Humbrol paint range back to being made in UK and it's reported their Airfix aircraft kit range is heading back to the UK too.
Cheers,
Alan
Good :thankyousign:
Quote from: EtchedPixels on November 26, 2013, 10:29:16 PM
Likewise Adam, I've basically given up buying stuff when it first comes out. If the dealers and vendor want to have some cozy deal where the prices are not far below RRP for a while then I'll just wait, and quite possibly forget and never buy the product.
. . .
Same for me too
Taiwan has a minimum hourly wage of $3.50 so way above the current Chinese option, Turkey is about $500/month (and not exactly politicially stable) minimum wage - you are looking at places like Bangladesh.
Alan
This is a very interesting topic.
I've taken a very big breath and ordered a blue Tornado, which will be my main purchase for the year. When prices go up and when I have limited funds, I buy less and think very carefully about each loco purchase. I don't think this is a bad thing, as I appreciate the locos more.
I expect prices to rise and that I will have to spend wisely in future but I won't give up the hobby, I will just be buying fewer new locos.
Having said all that I find it hard to resist a secondhand bargain often with dire consequences :(
The last couple of weeks I've been looking through my older models and I've realised just how much 80s/90s era stock I have, and how much up to date stuff too.
I've been really lucky in that I've been able to buy things recently, not necessarily immediately, but within a couple of months.
But I do have bills to pay, and other expenses, and after those are paid, then models can be bought.
I think for most people, save up if you see something you want. One less Costa or Starbucks, or whatever your other pleasures are, cigarettes, beer, whatever.
You wouldn't expect to earn minimum wage and go buy a new car every 3 years, you'd have to save a long time, or buy second (third, fourth, fifth) hand.
Hobbies are expensive and are a luxury, and the priority is food on the table and a roof over your head. After that, enjoy yourself.
Just my thoughts. Cheers, Timmo
Quote from: OwL on November 26, 2013, 11:54:55 PM
Quote from: Dr Al on November 26, 2013, 12:21:55 AM
Quote from: OwL on November 25, 2013, 10:33:28 PM
As the Chinese become more affluent and demand more wages, you will see production move to India, then somewhere else after.......
Eventually things will go full circle and i'm sure manufacturing of model railways will return to the UK.
Already happening - Hornby have moved their Humbrol paint range back to being made in UK and it's reported their Airfix aircraft kit range is heading back to the UK too.
Cheers,
Alan
Good :thankyousign:
For what its worth, when I had lengthy chat with Joel at TINGS about Dapols manufacturing cost's, he mentioned that plans were being made to bring some production back in house as some things would cheaper to produce here.
Go's to show if UK company's are stroking chins over Chinese labour prices, that can only be good for our economy if the work returns to our shores.
As someone who retired early and must live off my savings for the next 5 years, the cost of new locos is becoming quite prohibitive for me, especially as I have so many pre-orders :sweat:
However, I am always concerned about missing out on something that fits my era/location if I don't pre-order in case it never becomes available again :worried:
Although I have never been a devotee of Rule 1, the sheer fact is I couldn't afford to go down that track( :D) now, although I did buy a Blue Pullman before I retired (sorry to mention that Bealman)
For the same reasons I cannot afford DCC due to the cost of chipping my fleet so will have to remain a DC old fart.
I've even got to the state where I cast my eyes around the house to see what I don't use and ponder selling it (just as well I'm not married any more >:D)
I also pre order so as not to miss out on the newer locos. Costs will also see me remaining DC old fart as well, quite a few of my locos are not worth converting to DCC.
What I am doing at present is what a friend calls 'streamlining my collection' I will be sitting at a collector's fair this weekend with a fair amount of old 00 stock to sell with the hope of boosting the model railway piggy bank.
If I'm lucky I will raise enough to fund the Tornado. ;D
With quite a few of us saving up and waiting patiently for locos, it becomes very frustrating when quality is not up to scratch but that's been discussed many times before.
What I don't agree with is the idea that returns and repairs are pushing up costs and we should attempt to repair faulty locos. I think it is more a case of manufacturers using their customers as quality controllers. They've probably done the maths and it works out cheaper to use us for quality control.
:NGaugersRule:
I do agree on the quality control side, no we should not be the manufacturers QC department. Whatever method you have of funding your hobby, you should expect a quality product that works straight out of the box, and doesn't break after two minutes use.
How many cars would Ford sell if every one was sent back after 2 hours cos bits dropped off, or the engine smoked and seized up?
Dave Jones has obviously listened to this point from modellers, and it's about time other manufacturers did too.
Cheers, Timmo
Quote from: newportnobby on November 27, 2013, 10:57:53 AM
Although I have never been a devotee of Rule 1, the sheer fact is I couldn't afford to go down that track( :D) now.
I'm not sure if I follow what does rule 1 mean! :confused1:
Rule 1 = "It's my railway and I'll run what the hell I want" ;)
Paul
Quote from: Sprintex on November 27, 2013, 12:31:20 PM
Rule 1 = "It's my railway and I'll run what the hell I want" ;)
Paul
Ah right..... I like it. Seems Newportnobby is a man of good philosophy! 8)
I've not been in N gauge long (around a year) and came into the hobby while there was a bit of sale stuff going on at Hattons. I've seen a few dry spells over this year when there isn't much on sale and generally I won't buy anything. Now that I know what I want/need and have an idea of what it's worth to me, I will bide my time on most items. However, there are a few exceptions - the Newpaper Express train set I've been so excited about is on pre-order at around £80 as this is a bargain - I don't want to find it's going on sale at nearer to £100. I've not pre-ordered it but if it's on the same boat as the pre-ordered train set, I'm going to snap up some blue mk1 SO carriages and a blue 08, IF it is around £65 as these things don't seem to hang around very long (even though I can't justify pre ordering one - mrs dan will be furious...)
To summarise:
If it's a bargain to me I'll pre order it. If it is likely to sell out quickly, I'll buy if the price is right (just north of 'bargain') If it's too expensive (£100+ for a diesel) I'll just get fixated on something cheaper...
Quote from: pape_timmo on November 27, 2013, 11:49:07 AM
How many cars would Ford sell if every one was sent back after 2 hours cos bits dropped off, or the engine smoked and seized up?
About 250,000 apparently...
http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20131126/AUTO0102/311260052/Ford-recalling-140-000-13-Escape-SUVs-fire-risks (http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20131126/AUTO0102/311260052/Ford-recalling-140-000-13-Escape-SUVs-fire-risks)
Maybe its a case of less is more. How many people have more stock than they can accomodate anyway?
When I do go out buying, I usually buy the train I need in as close to one lump as possible (loco & rolling stock). Then I might not buy anything for months. I don't have numerous pre-orders on the go (last one was the Brighton Belle).
I would be very specific about what I want to run on the layout and would be willing to search or modify to get it. A driver for this might be that I model the North Kent line and there is no RTR EMU stock available - so I have to go for kits if I want the Class 465/6 Networkers that I need (btw need another three)...
Before I go much further though I need to buy the Man-cave to house the layout semi permanently - which might spur more buying.... Roll on the summer...
Quote from: Zwilnik on November 27, 2013, 04:56:06 PM
Quote from: pape_timmo on November 27, 2013, 11:49:07 AM
How many cars would Ford sell if every one was sent back after 2 hours cos bits dropped off, or the engine smoked and seized up?
About 250,000 apparently...
http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20131126/AUTO0102/311260052/Ford-recalling-140-000-13-Escape-SUVs-fire-risks (http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20131126/AUTO0102/311260052/Ford-recalling-140-000-13-Escape-SUVs-fire-risks)
Ah... Maybe Ford was a bad example...
You get the point tho, at least Ford is doing something about it, although it doesn't inspire confidence if they've already recalled them for the same problem.
If it's not fit for purpose, do something about it as the builder, don't expect the customer to accept it.
Cheers, Timmo
That Ford has an appropriate name too, it's what you'll shout when it goes up in smoke... ESCAPE!!!!
Quote from: pape_timmo on November 27, 2013, 05:02:04 PM
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Ah... Maybe Ford was a bad example...
You get the point tho, at least Ford is doing something about it, although it doesn't inspire confidence if they've already recalled them for the same problem.
If it's not fit for purpose, do something about it as the builder, don't expect the customer to accept it.
Cheers, Timmo
Yup. Ford are pretty much in the same area of quality control and customer care as Dapol. Basically, if they can get away with it, they won't fix anything because the insurance claims cost less than the cost of the recall. They had the huge scandal a couple of decades ago with their SUV that exploded if another car crashed into it in a particular spot. They didn't recall it until they were forced to by lawsuits. We're lucky that Dapol engines just break down and don't work rather than actually exploding and hurting you.
http://www.autoblog.com/2013/09/28/bmw-3-series-5-series-x1-x3-z4-brake-recall/ (http://www.autoblog.com/2013/09/28/bmw-3-series-5-series-x1-x3-z4-brake-recall/)
Still an interesting topic, still feel that a lot is I wish , or I want and to many people imho haven't got a clue.
Little example. Somebody mentioned about the cost of a loco which was around £ 17,-- this price means that it has a retail price of around £ 65,-- but closet to £ 80,--
It's that simple. Shipping cost, import duties, bit of margin for the wholesaler, bit of margin for the retailer , vat and there we are. And if you think this is gready I can tell you it's not. Any way I don't see too much production coming back to the UK in the next couple of years but that's me personally.
I can believe the production cost is £17/unit but I can't see the full cost being that including R&D and toolmaking, although it depends massively on sales volume.
Model trains do seem quite cheap compared with say photography. But unlike photography buffs model train aficionados do seem quite happy to receive new locos DOA and then take them apart and resolder wires etc to make them work. This sends a message to the manufacturers that model locos built to 1970's British Leyland standards is acceptable.
More should be sent back to the supplier and thence to the manufacturer to make the required standard clear.
I agree with sending faulty locos back but sometimes there's the risk that there are no more of that particular loco left, the replacement might be worse or that you are thousands of miles away.
Badly adjusted pick ups and poor soldering seem to be quite common and the locos shouldn't leave the factory in that condition. Sometimes locos that run well on the shop test track develop faults after running in.
I think those modellers that choose to do their own repairs should still send the manufacturer an email describing the repairs they had to make, it might not make much difference but it's worth a try and would provide more realistic feedback.
I still think one of the main problems is that it is too expensive to do proper in factory quality control and as mentioned in other posts some locos are poorly designed in the first place.
Hi
For me any thing over about £85.00 is out of my league,I was thinking of getting the Hornby Arnold Brighton Belle but looking at the prices meant it beyond my income level,£129.00 for the 2 Power Cars and £79.00 for three trailer cars which comes over £200.00 for the proper formation.
I'm single my wife died 10 years ago and we had no children,so it's no good saying ask relatives for money for Christmas and Birthdays. I'm on a basic state pension with a small occupation pension.
Now I have to look at the 3 major shops and ebay for bargain deals.
Mike