Hi
Just had a e.mail from Kernow about a Dapol Kato trainset,consists of a Hall class loco,and 3 Collett Coaches,a circle of Kato Track and a Kato Controller,Price £199.00 only problem they have sold them all.
The name of the set is called Home Counties Commuter,they reckon to get some more in on Monday
Mike
Just seen that in a newsletter but didn't know they'd sold out.
Seems somewhat expensive compared to the same type of Farish starter set :hmmm:
The Dapol Hall sells for around £95, and the coaches are at minimum around the £19 mark each, so that's £152 right there.
That leaves a bit under £50 for the track and the controller. Is that good value?
I will make this observation about the Kato track -- it's genuinely designed to be a "train set" rather than the basis of a model railway. It clicks together and stays together, and almost never has problems with electricity being conducted properly all the way around. This contrasts with Peco SetTrack, which might look better ('might' being the operative word, as weathered Kato track can look very good indeed) but isn't really designed to be laid out on the carpet or table as a temporary layout. It doesn't click together nearly so well as Kato track, especially once pieces have been pulled apart a few times and metal fishplates lost their "bite".
It's hard to fault the Kato track as good for beginners. It ticks all the right boxes except, perhaps, looks. But even if you do go on to create a layout based on Peco track, the Kato stuff is still ideal for setting up quick running-in layouts, particularly if your main layout is an end-to-end design (remember, manufacturers now recommend running-in new models for 30-60 minutes in each direction, so having an oval layout you can bring out at a moments notice is invaluable). The reliability of Kato track also makes it good for maintenance, when you want to see how well (or not) a loco is working.
Basically, I'd say this is good value if you need the track and a controller. Less good value if you don't need either the track or the controller, in which case you can get the loco and the three coaches for quite a bit less.
Cheers, NeMo
Quote from: Michael Hendle on October 11, 2013, 04:42:43 PM
Hi
Just had a e.mail from Kernow about a Dapol Kato trainset,consists of a Hall class loco,and 3 Collett Coaches,a circle of Kato Track and a Kato Controller,Price £199.00 only problem they have sold them all.
The name of the set is called Home Counties Commuter,they reckon to get some more in on Monday
Mike
Given it promptly sold out I guess someone thinks its good value ;-)
I could see this sort of thing being marketed on the shopping channels. Ticks a lot of boxes e.g. robust track, easy to set up and dismantle, can fit into a much smaller space then OO, easily expandable (points with build in motors, bridges etc).
I'd have bought a set like this (but with a Voyager or FGW HST) if it was available when I was starting in N.
Ah, I think I was unclear. What I meant firstly is that Kato is designed to be set up and then taken apart, over and over, as required for a temporary train set. Peco track isn't (or at least, doesn't work as well if used that way). I didn't mean Kato track can't be used for a proper layout. Just that *as well* as proper layouts, it's designed to be just as useful for temporary train sets.
As for its value on a real layout, it's what I use, and having spent much money on Peco track (Setrack and Streamline) I've ended up using Kato and finding it much more reliable and pleasant to use. Mine is ballasted and weathered, and I think looks pretty good. I've been much influenced in this regard by seeing what American model railroaders achieve with Kato track.
But I do understand that compared to Streamline, it's often considered less realistic and perhaps less accurate for truly authentic British railway modelling. In short, I'm a Kato fan, not a critic!
Cheers, NeMo
Quote from: Arrachogaidh on October 11, 2013, 08:38:51 PM
Quote from: NeMo on October 11, 2013, 05:57:42 PM
I will make this observation about the Kato track -- it's genuinely designed to be a "train set" rather than the basis of a model railway.
It's hard to fault the Kato track as good for beginners. It ticks all the right boxes except, perhaps, looks. But even if you do go on to create a layout based on Peco track, the Kato stuff is still ideal for setting up quick running-in layouts, particularly if your main layout is an end-to-end design (remember, manufacturers now recommend running-in new models for 30-60 minutes in each direction, so having an oval layout you can bring out at a moments notice is invaluable). The reliability of Kato track also makes it good for maintenance, when you want to see how well (or not) a loco is working.
Mixed messages there. I think you will find that the Japanese would totally disagree with your first sentence, as you seem to do with your later observations. Surely the matter is how you model your railway scene and make the best of your chosen track system.
To rule out Kato out of hand as you have done is ridiculous.
Sorry, had to be said. :laugh:
Likewise, I've seen some really scenic layouts done with Kato track. It requires different techniques, but can look really good and because the wiring is simpler you have more time to work on the scenery :)
I currently use Kato track for my off-scene areas and fiddle yard as it's easier to set up and means I can focus my attention on the scenic part of the layout.
The only part of the pack I'd have issues with is Dapol's Hall. The set uses 12" curves, which it can sometimes handle if you get a good one, but it has some serious design and reliability issues so it's a bit of a random chance you'd actually have a working train set.
Just for the record, I am a great Kato fan, despite the problems I have had (documented elsewhere.) If it had not been available when I was having my layout built I doubt I would ever have had a n gauge layout if I had to use Peco. Then I would not be a member of this forum.
Run
The kato track base is easy to bury and blend. The sleeper spacing is right and far better than Peco but the Peco code 55 has thinner rail and more tolerant points. Its also better at handling vertical unevenness and has flexible track which is a big win.
Kato is also electrically way simpler of course and is electrofrog without the warts.
Both IMHO have their place but for "I want to run trains now" Kato is excellent
Also available here. Think its a fantastic set espically if your just getting back into hobby or starting off
http://www.osbornsmodels.com//osborns-set-1-27669-p.asp (http://www.osbornsmodels.com//osborns-set-1-27669-p.asp)
Here is my layout fully laid with Kato Unitrack.
http://gwizz.zenfolio.com/p1156419 (http://gwizz.zenfolio.com/p1156419)
First shown at Warley in 2011, I admit I still haven't had time to fully blend in some of the track but almost no visitors ever mention it. The discussion between operator and visitor at shows I have attended is almost always about how it looks OK and runs so well, with full automation and plug and play.
I am not a great fan of ballasting or wiring - accurate operation being my thing so Kato is perfect for me.
Did I hear modern mentioned.....................
http://www.osbornsmodels.com//osborns-set-2-27671-p.asp (http://www.osbornsmodels.com//osborns-set-2-27671-p.asp)
I've been a Peco man for years and am stuck with it now. But from what I'm seeing on this forum I am beginning to think that if I were starting out now, I think I'd give Kato a go. The people on here who have done blending in work (and you know who you are) have done an excellent job and are certainly instrumental in swaying my train of thought (intentional pun).
The starter set sounds like an excellent idea.
IMO both track systems have their use. Kato Unitrack primarily for temporary track layouts where it is laid on carpets or tables and then taken up later. Plus it's great to quickly form an oval for testing and running-in trains.
However, I've never been convinced that it can be made fully realistic, and that is where properly ballasted Peco track (and now the FinetraX system) wins. The lower rail section/code and ability to use real ballast looks better.
I've yet to see a layout with Unitrack that is as realistically convincing, and where the ballast base doesn't look plasticky and/or doesn't tower excessively over the surrounding details. I guess the effort of blending it in (lowering it or building up around it) to disguise those issues is too much effort and is easier with Peco.
H.
Quote from: EtchedPixels on October 11, 2013, 10:25:04 PMand has flexible track which is a big win
Trivia mode: Kato do in fact have N scale flex-track. Product code 21-000 in 808mm lengths. It doesn't have moulded ballast and so doesn't really fit the Unitrack ethos, but I guess it's what the Japanese use if they want gentler curves in much the same way as folk over here use Peco.
I read somewhere that it's actually rebranded Atlas flex-track, although whether that's true I couldn't say!
I think that the height of ballast shoulders is often underestimated. In fact I often wish I had made the ones on my layout higher. I'd also put money on that if you ask any experienced modeller what was the thing they hated most, ballasting track would be near the top of the list.
Quote from: H on October 12, 2013, 07:46:47 AM
I've yet to see a layout with Unitrack that is as realistically convincing, and where the ballast base doesn't look plasticky and/or doesn't tower excessively over the surrounding details. I guess the effort of blending it in (lowering it or building up around it) to disguise those issues is too much effort and is easier with Peco.
Below a couple views of my ballasted Kato track. Whether it's "realistically convincing" I'll leave to you to decide.
But I think that with a bit of care it isn't difficult to build up the surrounding landscape to the height of the track -- and certainly much easier that doing the equivalent with Peco flexitrack, i.e., cutting underlay to the right size and tacking down a suitable curve without twists or gaps between lengths of rail. Ballasting around Kato points has to be done with a little extra care, if only to make sure that glue and ballast don't get into the mechanism, but again, this aspect is generally much easier that doing the same thing with Peco points.
Weathering makes a huge difference, taking away the glossiness of the plastic. I find an airbrush reduces this job to literally a few minutes work!
Cheers, NeMo
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/56/thumb_6189.jpg) (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=6189)
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/58/thumb_5140.jpg) (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=5140)
Quote from: H on October 12, 2013, 07:46:47 AM
However, I've never been convinced that it can be made fully realistic, and that is where properly ballasted Peco track (and now the FinetraX system) wins. The lower rail section/code and ability to use real ballast looks better.
Well, I would say that NeMo's pictures above look pretty good! I have done a less thorough job on Lofthole but I think it looks tolerable with a bit of weathering and ground raising:
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/57/thumb_5663.JPG) (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=5663)
But I think I would agree with the thrust of your argument, H - having used it for Lofthole I have not become a fan - the effort involved in making it look good seems greater than that in laying and ballasting code 55, and there is the problem of the #4 points. I won't be using it again.
Cheers Jon :)
NeMo your photos demonstrate my point. The track looks great. I am in the position where I am not starting a new layout and am stuck with Peco code 80. I hope to finish my layout with Peco code 55, but work such as yours is very convincing.... and I am convinced that blending it in has got go be more interesting and less tedious than the dropper, water and soap.
The only worry I have is the sweeping curves but EP seems to have covered that.
Anyway we are all a bit off topic here.. Dapol Kato set. ;)
Quote from: NeMo on October 12, 2013, 08:36:39 AM
Below a couple views of my ballasted Kato track. Whether it's "realistically convincing" I'll leave to you to decide.
But I think that with a bit of care it isn't difficult to build up the surrounding landscape to the height of the track -- and certainly much easier that doing the equivalent with Peco flexitrack, i.e., cutting underlay to the right size and tacking down a suitable curve without twists or gaps between lengths of rail.
Not bad, but unfortunately I'm still not convinced.
With Peco track there is no need for building up the surrounding landscape (that just adds time, effort, cost and weight to the layout/project) and there's certainly no need for underlay. Plus of course with Unitrack you still end up with code 80 rail compared with the code 55/40 of Peco/fiNetracK/Easitrack and they give you the ability to lay proper transition curves.
H.
A "not bad" from you is high praise indeed! ;)
Of course you are quite right that Kato Unitrack will never be the perfect medium for creating a totally authentic model railway. But it can be a very good start, I think, and you can make a pretty good layout using just Kato track. Many Americans do (for example here (http://powersteamguy1790snewjjje.blogspot.co.uk/2012/10/ballasting-and-weathering-unitrack.html)).
If we recall what the original poster was asking, whether or not (and I paraphrase) paying £50 for a circle of Kato track and a Kato controller is worth it, then on balance this thread seems to suggest that it is. Whether or not a beginner sticks with Kato track is a more complicated question, and as you say H, there are good reasons who a modeller might not want to use Kato track. But at the same time there are good reasons to stick with Kato too, which I think we've thoroughly hashed out here now. At the end of the day, £50 for an oval of Kato track and a controller is certainly not money wasted, and as I said earlier, even if you choose to use Peco for the main layout, it's very high reliability when used for temporary table-top ovals make it handy stuff to have when running-in new models.
Cheers, NeMo
Quote from: H on October 12, 2013, 10:24:18 AM
Not bad, but unfortunately I'm still not convinced.
One of the things that surprised me about my first N gauge train set (the Merseyside Express) was how poorly the track stayed together. Despite what the instructions may have said, fixing track to a baseboard wasn't just desirable it was essential. If I were looking to buy a starter train set today I'd be quite tempted by that one.
As for the height issue, by the time you've used some underlay the track sits quite high above the baseboard anyway. I'm having to raise ground level on my layout to address this issue.
Quote from: johnlambert on October 13, 2013, 01:33:17 PM
As for the height issue, by the time you've used some underlay the track sits quite high above the baseboard anyway. I'm having to raise ground level on my layout to address this issue.
The simple solution is not to use underlay. Besides there is absolutely no good reason to use it if the track bed is firm and flat. If you ballast to the sleeper tops there's no problem in forming a realistic and prototypical shoulder at the edge.
H.
Considering that the track pack alone can be bought for as little as £55 (+p&p) in this country, or imported for around £50 (and less if you know where to look, including shipping), I'd day the set does not represent value for money. You're basically paying for the convenience of having all of the items packaged together.
Bought separately, right now, I can find
3 BR Maroon colletts for £17 each and Late Crest Green Hall for £95 from Hattons, so £4 delivery. £150
Kato unitrack pack M1 for $63.95 inc shipping + VAT and PO fee gives £56.08.
Total £206.08 delivered, and thats without looking for cheaper track packs or going in to bargain bins and looking for cheaper locos/coaches.
Kato track certainly has its place in modelling thanks to its chucktogetherability and generally robust electrical continuity, I just find it rather limiting. Its like the Bachmann demo layout, nicely done setrack is still insanely curved with no transitions and fixed angles, it just doesn't flow smoothly. NeMos link demonstrates that perfectly, just look at those switchback curves. With longer more modern US vehicles, autoracks and 89' flats look absolutely hideous negotiating Unitrack and Peco setrack curvature, as do longer UK vehicles like Mk3 coaches, which is exactly why I use neither. I also find the cost per m of track quite unattractive given its limitations to produce the sort of layout that I prefer. This point in particular is very subjective though, I am of no uncertainty that others will have different needs from trackwork, and Kato provides a very useful range for them at a price they're happy with.
Ground level shouldn't be an issue. Ground level is rarely track level in real life, nor is ground level flat, so why must it be so on a model railway? ;)
:hellosign:
I have just had a look at the 2 Dapol Kato Commuter Sets,,the Osborne one priced at £210.00 is a special edition set,It has a GWR Hall special for them and 3 GWR Collett Coaches special for them again,the track and controller are the same as the one in the Ordinary Commuter Set.As for track I think it's a case of pay your money and take you choice.
I have the Dapol Auto train set,which I think has peco set track,but the controller in this set is a gauge master one,the problem is the track which has a habit of slipping apart, the fish plates don't seem to be a tight fit.this set cost me £105.00 which I think is good value for a starter set,considering the decent controller you get with it.
Mike :A1Tornado:
I think Rule 1 applies here
Nick R - proud owner of 200' of Unitrack!