Quote from: H on September 10, 2013, 06:03:52 PM
The quick and easy response is that it is quite possible to build up a decent stud of locos from current models.
I can't agree that older stuff is good value even if a little cheaper - I doubt very much that beginners would be undertaking such modelling upgrading and rectification work as you suggest, and that it cost money to improve them making the models just as expensive as current ones. And TBQH the prices for some lame, second-hand, old lumps, especially on ebay, that are in running condition, aren't exactly cheap.
However, for practicing painting and other modelling techniques on, cheap non-runners are a better bet. But I'd suggest that type of activity is a little more advanced than beginners just initially wanting RTR.
H.
I think my funds may be a little more restricted than yours, because building up a decent stud from new would take me about three times as long as building up a stud from second-hand. It's something I can only realistically think of doing as a gradual process. Until then I'd be running ghost trains...
I also can't see why beginners wouldn't undertake upgrading work of the relatively easy kind that I mentioned. After thirty-plus years out of the hobby and never more than an RTR user when I was in it, I'm a beginner myself and I can't wait to have the facilities available so that I can start improving my cheaper, old locos. None of these minor changes are particularly expensive and they have the potential to improve beyond that small cost - just the type of thing you're continually advocating in the magazine. ;) I'm not talking about taking them apart, stripping down the paintwork and rebuilding them. That's definitely beyond the average beginner, but any improvement is an improvement, and in the meantime there's an effective, working and still, quite frankly, impressive-looking stud of locos to run on the beginners layout.
You're right about some of the prices on eBay, and some of the lumps, but some of the prices can be good ones, and some of the locos are far from lumps. I think you're underestimating beginners, or at least some of them. Enthusiasm alone may encourage them to take on minor upgrade work and, besides that, just because they're beginners in N Gauge, it doesn't necessarily mean that they're beginners at modelling full stop. Experience comes in all forms and sizes, not just at 1:148 scale. ;)
Quote from: Pete33 on September 10, 2013, 11:21:36 PM
I also can't see why beginners wouldn't undertake upgrading work of the relatively easy kind that I mentioned.
This is an interesting comment and probably worthwhile pursuing aside from the issue of cost which can stack up quite steeply when you add in the cost of specialist tools like electric mini-drills, resistance soldering units, and air brushes and compressors, and on top of that the cost of paint, glues, transfers, fresh knife blades and other consumables required for each project.
I certainly agree that I can't see why beginners wont undertake upgrading work, but my experience is that it is difficult to get many/most N gauge enthusiast to undertake any form of actual construction modelling - even simple upgrade work. I can't understand why they wont try as they may well find it great fun and increases their enjoyment of N gauge.
For example you often hear/read the cries of demand for a locomotive in a particular livery or number to be produced by the manufacturers because they wont even attempt to change the running number (for various, often unfounded, fears). Many want RTP structures and baulk at attempting a simple cheap card building kit when you suggest it. And then NGS appears to be dumbing down with an increasing RTR range and scaling back on kits because it says that is what its members want. I started the N'spirations magazine to help encourage real modelling (rather than just collecting and running RTR) but still people say that is elitist and that they are happy not bothering and prefer to have it done for them.
So I'd be interested to hear your, or anyone else, suggestions and ideas of how we can get encourage constructional modelling, although, of course, there is nothing wrong with 'tried it, didn't like it' (so long as it wasn't just the once many years ago) or finding fulfilment, satisfaction and fun with a limited involvement in the hobby.
H.
Specialist tools ?
I don't have an RSU, an airbrush, a compressor or for that matter use an electric mini-drill. I can't imagine why you would want to use an RSU in N gauge in the first place.
The tools I actually make regular use of are
- scissors
- ruler
- jewellers screwdriver set
- craft knife
- atlas supersaw (cheap but very handy for committing violence on models - from Maurice)
- xuron track cutters (slightly busted up old pair used for abusing plastic models)
- pin vice and mini drills
- two pairs of pliers
- tweezers
- small files (cheap ones)
- old woodworking file
- soldering iron/solder/flux
and that's building etched kits and scratchbuilding stuff
Quote from: H on September 12, 2013, 12:12:57 PM
So I'd be interested to hear your, or anyone else, suggestions and ideas of how we can get encourage constructional modelling, although, of course, there is nothing wrong with 'tried it, didn't like it' (so long as it wasn't just the once many years ago) or finding fulfilment, satisfaction and fun with a limited involvement in the hobby.
H.
Last year as part of the NGS 45th Roadshow visitors were encouraged to take part in hands on kit building. I didn't attend any of the roadshows and haven't seen any pictures so cannot comment on how successful this was.
Michael
Quote from: H on September 12, 2013, 12:12:57 PM
Quote from: Pete33 on September 10, 2013, 11:21:36 PM
I also can't see why beginners wouldn't undertake upgrading work of the relatively easy kind that I mentioned.
This is an interesting comment and probably worthwhile pursuing aside from the issue of cost which can stack up quite steeply when you add in the cost of specialist tools like electric mini-drills, resistance soldering units, and air brushes and compressors, and on top of that the cost of paint, glues, transfers, fresh knife blades and other consumables required for each project.
I certainly agree that I can't see why beginners wont undertake upgrading work, but my experience is that it is difficult to get many/most N gauge enthusiast to undertake any form of actual construction modelling - even simple upgrade work. I can't understand why they wont try as they may well find it great fun and increases their enjoyment of N gauge.
For example you often hear/read the cries of demand for a locomotive in a particular livery or number to be produced by the manufacturers because they wont even attempt to change the running number (for various, often unfounded, fears). Many want RTP structures and baulk at attempting a simple cheap card building kit when you suggest it. And then NGS appears to be dumbing down with an increasing RTR range and scaling back on kits because it says that is what its members want. I started the N'spirations magazine to help encourage real modelling (rather than just collecting and running RTR) but still people say that is elitist and that they are happy not bothering and prefer to have it done for them.
So I'd be interested to hear your, or anyone else, suggestions and ideas of how we can get encourage constructional modelling, although, of course, there is nothing wrong with 'tried it, didn't like it' (so long as it wasn't just the once many years ago) or finding fulfilment, satisfaction and fun with a limited involvement in the hobby.
H.
Hi
Over the years I have kit and scratchbuilt several items only to have the manufacturers then produce the items RTR. This has made me more or less give up making anything in fact my enthusiasm has gone so far south I think it has a very good suntan.
In the last few weeks I have slowly managed to start building things again and I am now trying to choose subjects that I hope the manufacturers won't produce. I nearly bought a Judith Edge class 17 as I thought there would be no chance of that appearing RTR and then look what happened on Saturday.
Cheers
Paul
Quote from: Zunnan on September 12, 2013, 04:01:32 PM
This subject is certainly worthy of a thread in itself, maybe worth splitting this off into its own topic.
I gave up trying, I got bored of being branded a rivet counter/elitest/whatever the latest in vogue derogatory term is for someone who even hints that there are better results to be found when you don't just open a parcel and tip its contents out. My latest one was this past weekend when I was approached to build a bridge for someone who didn't appreciate the quote for 20 hours worth of work plus materials and seemed most offended that I suggested they could achieve what they wanted for far less by modifying a Scalescenes kit themself, something along the lines of 'I'm not paying to print out that stuff as well as for the kit'. I hate to say it but some people just want it all done for them, and there are a number of people who have no time for those who actually do go to the effort, seemingly happier berating you for your efforts or opinion than having a go at doing something themselves. Having said that, nothing pleases me more than seeing the fruits of someone who has gone to the effort of making something for themselves, glue and paint overspill, warts n' all. And if I can encourage them to try something else and begin to hone some skill then all the better. Sadly in this day and age, even constructive criticism is all too often taken poorly or out of context, and the safest way is to say nothing at all...and for some, that lack of acknowledgment is as good as saying something negative.
Wholeheartedly agree - there is nothing wrong or elitist about being aspirational or trying to encourage others to do better/develop skills etc.
Cheers, Mike
I have just made my first tentative steps into 'kit bashing' by modifying some buildings. I have been wanting to do this for some time and my barriers were:
- a complete lack of confidence in my own ability :uneasy:
- the time it would take not only for me to do the kit bashing, but the time spent afterwards putting right my mistakes :worried:
- fear of completely ruining an expensive item :o
Gradually my confidence is being built up through adding interiors and also lighting (a new skill for me) to the point where I threw caution to the wind and took a razor saw to a £40 building (although I got it off eBay for £28). Although I only chopped out a couple of sections, I got a real sense of achievement as a result and am now tackling another cheaper set of buildings. I've had to go to YouTube for vids on stuff like how to use Milliput as the instructions were not clear enough for a numpty like me (e.g. using water)
I really struggle with painting (unless it is small details) so have started an air-brushing journey and I am pleased that I am able to get a much better finish than I could with brush paints. I wish I had gone down this route earlier and may respray some of my hand painted stuff.
My goal is to transform a Kato White Sonic into a Javelin, so I am gradually working up to this. The biggest barrier remains the fear of ruining a £180 set :worried:
I don't think its unique to modelling. It takes effort and mistakes and some dire results on the way. We see the same in computing now - all the "internet" kids who can't and won't even learn to fix a dodgy network cable, let alone what happens when the plumbing goes wonky on them.
Same solution to both, charge them £25/hr :beers:
It's not universal thankfully - there is a growing movement of 'makers' of all sorts of cool stuff - a friend is building a full size robot K9 for example ! Unfortunately for the most part it seems almost everyone today is obsessed with "not failing" rather than "achieving". Even more unfortunately the exception to this appear to the banks :veryangry: :veryangry:
IMHO the challenge is ensuring making stuff is "cool". Playing guitar well is harder than making models but kids still do that.
When I do point stuff out I try to be constructive about it. Rather than "X is wrong" try to keep to "Have you thought about improving X by doing...". To me that matters - the railway world has an oversupply of people who can spot the wrong type of buffer at 40 feet but couldn't put a Peco kit together.
Alan
Quote from: Pengi on September 12, 2013, 04:49:28 PM
My goal is to transform a Kato White Sonic into a Javelin, so I am gradually working up to this. The biggest barrier remains the fear of ruining a £180 set :worried:
I know that feeling. I have one here for the same reason
Alan
Quote from: Zunnan on September 12, 2013, 04:01:32 PM
Sadly in this day and age, even constructive criticism is all too often taken poorly or out of context, and the safest way is to say nothing at all...and for some, that lack of acknowledgment is as good as saying something negative.
Yep, unfortunately, that is, all to often, all to true. And in all walks of life. Sometimes it doesn't even have to be criticism for an adverse and OTT reaction - a polite request can provoke some people.
Is that kind of reaction a modern thing - the current generational behaviour. Perhaps it's something missing at school these days; how to give and receive feedback. Worse I fear it might even be contagious - I'm sure I've occasionally been guilty of it.
But that aside, how does constructional modelling get promoted and encouraged as an enjoyable extension to collecting and playing?
H.
Quote from: EtchedPixels on September 12, 2013, 04:53:14 PM
Quote from: Pengi on September 12, 2013, 04:49:28 PM
My goal is to transform a Kato White Sonic into a Javelin, so I am gradually working up to this. The biggest barrier remains the fear of ruining a £180 set :worried:
I know that feeling. I have one here for the same reason
Alan
Hi
Thats the reason my 2mm Scale Association 08 kit is still in its box although only half the price I don't want to ruin the purchase. To be honest its the chassis build that puts me off. I know I will be ok with the body as I have built a fair few etched kits but never a chassis. On day though I will bite the bullet and get on with it.
Cheers
Paul
Quote from: Michael Shillabeer on September 12, 2013, 01:26:02 PM
Last year as part of the NGS 45th Roadshow visitors were encouraged to take part in hands on kit building. I didn't attend any of the roadshows and haven't seen any pictures so cannot comment on how successful this was.
Yep, I've not heard about how it went. It would be nice to read a follow up report in the NGS Journal about it. My only impression is that it didn't do very well and I recall hearing that not many of the kits were built (although it was probably only hearsay).
H.
Quote from: EtchedPixels on September 12, 2013, 04:51:24 PM
When I do point stuff out I try to be constructive about it. Rather than "X is wrong" try to keep to "Have you thought about improving X by doing...".
That seems to me to be the best possible way of trying to impart advice, especially online where context is much harder to convey. The 'have you thought about' approach conveys a positive approach instead of the negative 'that's wrong' approach. For that reason alone it's much more likely to be received positively and perhaps even acted upon.
Quote from: Pengi on September 12, 2013, 04:49:28 PM
- a complete lack of confidence in my own ability :uneasy:
- the time it would take not only for me to do the kit bashing, but the time spent afterwards putting right my mistakes :worried:
- fear of completely ruining an expensive item :o
You certainly seem to be going about building up confidence in the right way. You only get better by actually doing things.
* Practice skills and techniques (on cheap models).
* Take one small step at a time.
* Take your time.
* Don't expect perfection first time.
* Don't be overly concerned about your early efforts/results.
* Get specialist advise, instruction and support.
* Be positive.
H.
I completely agree with H.
My first bit of Ngauge modelling was to replace the moulded hand rails of a second hand Farish 47 (my first N gauge Loco) with wire and then to weather it (pint brush and dry brushing - no airbrush in sight)... I built some PECO 15ft Wheelbase PCA's and wheathered them. I built some makey uppey Cement factory buildings from Cereal Packet card (didn't look too bad actually).
I recently built a class 465 Networker (the one I bang on about on these pages) from various components mainly bought from members of this forum. It has working light (fibre optics from a cheap IKEA christmas decoration)..
I have scratchbuilt Northfleet Station building - I have to rebuild it because it is to high (obvious when stood beside the Metcalf Terraced houses I built recently it is built from card and paper over a foam board carcass.
This is what modelling is about for me. Is is more satisfying than buying.
Now may I draw your attention to the TINGS thread... I saw lots of emails about bargins/lack of bargins traders and non traders. As an observation I didn't see as much about the layouts, construction, quality of running, quality of modelling etc...
SO each to their own but I like modelling rather than collecting...
There's quite a few comments here about the fear of ruining a purchase - and I suffer from the same... but these days starting with a computer, drawing software, a printer, some glue and card I am starting to scratchbuild buildings purely as modelling practice to learn and then also learn to paint better using old ratio kits I built as a youngster but now need a bit of freshening up...
As I grew up the only way I could afford to build a rake of wagons was to buy the peco kits slowly with pocket money (50% of a loco might be a birthday/christmas present combined with my dad "owning" the other 50%!). They were readily available and relatively cheap. Still didn't want to ruin them by painting too much though. That's now changed, and I've been getting the brush out with increasing confidence, but having popped into various model shops recently around the country (the joys of travelling!) the peco wagon kits don't seem to be stocked much these days - apparently they take up too much shelf space talking to the owners. And ordering from the larger online shops seems a bit excessive for a kit that costs a few quid. If Peco did bargain packs of x5 wagons for a tenner then I think a lot more people might be tempted into giving it a go...
I think confidence is the biggest hurdle to get over, all too often I see people say 'I couldn't do that'. Assuming you're willing to try it, 'I couldn't/can't do that' should not be in your vocabulary! ;)
Cost is another biggie, whether its weathering a £200+ Blue Pullman or a £20 coach, with 'I don't want to ruin it' nibbling away at your confidence. Practice is key when it comes to this, either that or a complete disregard of somethings value in the pursuit of getting what you want. With scratch building structures cost usually works in the opposite direction, take my bridge building for example ~
Farish ask £21 for the GCR single track bridge. I know that I could build the same basic design bridge using one sheet of 1mm plasticard, one sheet of brick plasticard and a handful of bits of evergreen styrene, one tin of red primer, one tin of mortar colour paint and one tin of brick colour. The odds are that I could build at least two out of the materials I list above and have some of the consumables such as evergreen styrene and paint left with enough to make another two or more. For £21 worth of material I could probably build four of them. The only non monetary consideration would be time, if I batch built them I could probably scratch build those four in a week. (don't go asking me to do it! :no: )
Again, practice is the key. I had a dabble in N initially but was never happy with the results so I started out building in 00 and then refined/scaled down the methods I found worked for me. Then I practiced by building dioramas (one completed in 24 hours straight, which is posted HERE (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=2057.msg21607#msg21607)), and now I build for my MRC exhibition layout.
Once you're over the cost/confidence hurdle and you actually begin to modify/kitbuild/scratchbuild, the satisfaction (for me at least) is that you have built something unique; put your signature on the canvas that is your layout as it were.
I've been kit bashing RTR hacking and scratch building for about 30 years now, If you want to model the SR with anything like prototypical stock you have to - or not run much stock!
As with others here chassis are my stumbling block, that includes finding wheels to suit; that's one reason for my thread re a 4-4-0 chassis, could also be used for 2-4-0, 0-4-2, 2-4-2 or even 4-4-2. Having a tender drive also makes the loco chassis very much easier to do. not many 4-4-0s had outside valve gear which is another awkward bit.
I'd also endorse the Ebay non runners aspect, if you can pick up a loco for say £20, look on it as paying for lessons, sometimes you get lucky maybe buy 2 of the same and make one out of the two, the other one can always be made to look well rusted and parked behind the shed or suspended from a wheel hoist, or maybe just sat there with the smoke box door open.
With Poole Farish the chassis of most of the 6 coupled locos were identical except for the size of the wheels, early ones had 3 pole motors, later ones had 5 pole, either will fit to the chassis block. You could easily drop the wheels out of a Duchess and replace them with wheels from a black 5, or take the motor off a black 5 and fit it to a GP tank.
Once you've had a play with something like that you gain confidence to move on to something a bit more challenging.
I'm finding this an fascinating topic.
I have the the same fears as most beginners have. I think sometimes those fears are built because we go to exhibitions and see outstanding layouts, or we see very good layouts in various journals, but want tends to happen is we don't see the mistakes that were made in the first place. That's because we also forget that some of the builders have made their mistakes, learnt the craft and moved on.
I've bought eBay stuff that to some would seam a waste of money but it's been used to learn, for instance how to hard wire decoders in different ways. I always wanted to scratch build buildings but like others, its a confidence thing. So I thought I'd start by making my own tunnel mouths by using the Peco ones as a guide but making them a little smaller to suit what I wanted. I've forgotten how many times I've painted a scratch built structure until it looked nearly right.
All these little steps have helped to build up the confidence levels for the next projects, one is to re livery a full HST. I'd would like to be able to make a reasonable look alike of Par signal box. Mistakes may happen but as long as I learn from them....
I won't be looking for perfection but at least I'll be able to say "I did that".
I'm not sure if building/bashing needs to be encouraged, my experience is that you reach a point where you want or need to start doing things for yourself. For example; I wanted some of Dapol's Collett coaches with magnetic couplings and the only way to achieve this was to cut off the original couplings. A Peco wagon kit was used as a practice piece (without encountering any problems) before attacking the coach bogies with sharp implements.
There have been mishaps; the N Brass front bogie for the Poole Farish Hall/Castle simply fell apart in my hands. I've given up on that as I'm sure the new Farish Castle will look and run better than anything I can do with the old type. Maybe in the future I'll attempt something powered but the big names have done a pretty good job of supplying the locos and multiple units I want. Maybe at some point I'll even attempt re-numbering so that the locos match those that were on shed near my modelled location. I've also bought a job lot of broken locos from ebay just to practice repainting/weathering.
I'm not sure I'd want to attempt to build a coach either as I doubt I could produce anything as good as the RTR types and I'm lucky that I've got plenty of suitable coaches (Dapol Colletts and Farish suburban and gangwayed Mk1s) available off the shelf. On the other hand I've built a few Peco wagon kits and have even invested in a cheap airbrush to do a better job of painting. Also I bought a new Dapol Siphon and disliked how plasticky it looked so took a deep breath and dry brushed a few different shades of brown paint over it.
Other than that I've built a few building kits, at some point I'll need to try and make my own building. Claverdon station, which I'm trying to model, had some distinctive buildings and I wouldn't expect any manufacturer to produce it either as "ready to plant" or even as a kit.
I suppose it comes down to what people are looking for. My main interest is running trains but that doesn't mean I haven't enjoyed building and adapting. It is very satisfying to look at the things on my layout that I have made unique. You don't have to build your own stuff to enjoy the hobby but sooner or later you will want something that isn't available off the shelf; at that point you'll probably start having a go and discover how satisfying it is to try a bit of DIY.
Some good positive stuff here: :thumbsup:
Quote from: Zunnan on September 12, 2013, 06:56:26 PM.
Once you're over the cost/confidence hurdle and you actually begin to modify/kitbuild/scratchbuild, the satisfaction (for me at least) is that you have built something unique; put your signature on the canvas that is your layout as it were.
Quote from: Dorsetmike on September 12, 2013, 07:06:54 PM
Once you've had a play with something like that you gain confidence to move on to something a bit more challenging.
Quote from: Jack9465 on September 12, 2013, 07:20:30 PM
I have the the same fears as most beginners have. I think sometimes those fears are built because we go to exhibitions and see outstanding layouts, or we see very good layouts in various journals, but want tends to happen is we don't see the mistakes that were made in the first place. That's because we also forget that some of the builders have made their mistakes, learnt the craft and moved on.
I won't be looking for perfection but at least I'll be able to say "I did that".
Quote from: johnlambert on September 12, 2013, 08:35:28 PM
. . . .sooner or later you will want something that isn't available off the shelf; at that point you'll probably start having a go and discover how satisfying it is to try a bit of DIY.
H.