Not a confrontationable post but as a newbie attending TINGS when diesel was seventy per cent prevelent I then went to GrantHam to see the mallard where the total opposite was the case over the deltic on view I just dont understand it. what do people see in diesels they just seem variations on a metalbox to me yet thesepeople are the die hards. Is it a bit why rock and roll descendedinto weired stuff like tangerime dream ? Ie the core interest wasnt enough ?
I'm not sure that diesel dominates but I can see where you are coming from.
I suppose that those of us who can remember steam are getting less and less. Many people will model things they know and remember so it is only natural that many people (who have only ever known diesel/electric) will model the more modern stuff.
Personally, I model the steam/diesel transition period so I have the best of both worlds.
As for Rock n Roll. I'd say it lives on. Music has developed and all genres will have their devotees.
More of us remember diesels from when we were younger and so they link us to a time remembered nostalgically?
Diesel RTR models and corresponding wagons from their era are more prolific than steam ones and so naturally most N gauge buyers will gravitate towards them?
Diesels are better than steam trains???
Who knows!
Rock and roll evolved into electronica, prog rock, punk and any other sub-genre you care to mention when musicians wanted to express themselves and free themselves (and us) from the shackles of chart mediocrity. You can't say that about the Deltic.
I didn't think that diesels did dominate TINGS!
But possible reason if they did - is that many people model either what they grew up with or what they see around them. There are increasingly few people who grew up with steam.
Personally I prefer the look of diesels and electrics...
Cheers, Mike
Another possible reason is diesels are more readily available, cheaper and from what I've read recently, much more reliable!
I think the reason in N is because diesels have less to damage on them when under show conditions just my thoughts,but at Grantham show N was well represented and at least one layout was steam did not have a time to see all the layouts as i was running Goseunderton my own layout
kevin
Totally agree chris i biought a real good class 37 diesel with sound on ebay and its so heavy ti never derails its great. I have had to return all my steam dapols for piston problems . Is diesel easy n gAuge modelling? I made therock and roll link because the basics never seem to be enough so it has to fragment it to a more acquired taste. Everyone foot taps to the beatles but tangerime dream was for afficionadaos. So real fans go hard core ?
Yesterday in grantham was ordinary people and they loved the sexy mallard. The deltic really was an acquired taste though they were the real loco folk.
Quote from: Norfolkrover on September 09, 2013, 07:47:29 PM
what do people see in diesels they just seem variations on a metalbox to me yet thesepeople are the die hards.
There are plenty of enthusiasts that like all three main traction types; diesel, electric and steam. After all they are all trains and run on railway tracks so why dismiss one type, although preferring one type is surely not an issue.
I guess that the reasons some prefer D&E are probably the same reasons as to why some people like kettles - only that they prefer more modern and contemporary machinery and designs. It's easy to claim that all steam locos look very similar, have spaghetti hanging off oversized wheels and are just water boilers in the same way as some claim that diesels are all just similar looking metal boxes. But IMO to say or claim either is really just lacking understanding and appreciation.
However, I don't think that TINGS was particularly predominately diesel. I guess that would be the view of those who were specifically wanting to see steamers and were therefore deliberately 'looking out' for diesels as an excuse for not seeing 100% kettles. The balance probably reflected the preference of the many who were exhibiting and displaying.
H.
Quote from: Norfolkrover on September 09, 2013, 07:47:29 PM
Not a confrontationable post . . .
Quote. . . what do people see in diesels they just seem variations on a metalbox to me
That appears to be self-contradictory for a start, as well as verging on the insulting :no:
Quote from: H on September 09, 2013, 08:57:02 PM
There are plenty of enthusiasts that like all three main traction types; diesel, electric and steam. After all they are all trains and run on railway tracks so why dismiss one type, although preferring one type is surely not an issue.
I guess that the reasons some prefer D&E are probably the same reasons as to why some people like kettles - only that they prefer more modern and contemporary machinery and designs. It's easy to claim that all steam locos look very similar, have spaghetti hanging off oversized wheels and are just water boilers in the same way as some claim that diesels are all just similar looking metal boxes. But IMO to say or claim either is really just lacking understanding and appreciation.
I can't really add anything to that as it sums it up perfectly :thumbsup:
One more thing that explains the love of diesels to some of us, especially those who are passionate about performance cars too: the internal combustion engine :heart2:
Paul
I'm modeling kettles at the moment mainly it was what I remember from my early childhood (I lived next to the old Waveney Valley Line for a while) So I agree with those who say you model what you grew up with.
But as I'm modeling a Heritage Railway I guess I will add some early oil burners later (well once I get the layout wired up :D)
I just love steam if I had the money and room I'd have a Burrell Traction engine :D
For me I basically I like all of them! Yes as a lad I can remember steam engines and how awesome they looked and sounded to me, electric has its clean uniqueness to it, but diesels like steam are so varied in shape and sizes along with their individual noises give them their personalised identities.
Regarding models, although I have diesels in a way I prefer to run steam because of their moving parts which make them just that bit more interesting.
Well, diesel and electric have been the dominant motive power for the last 50 years, so would be the natural choice for people who just want to make a model railway.
Modelling the steam era would be the preserve of a special minority interested specifically in "historical railway modelling", you would expect it to be less prevalent that the more mainstream D&E railway modelling.
I say this of course with tongue in cheek :o - but I think there is a grain of truth in it; why would someone, say, in their 20s now feel any particular desire to model something from their grandfather's generation, unless they had some additional specific historical interest? It does amaze me that the mainstream manufacturers still manage to bring out so many historical models that seem to find a market; I don't remember steam and feel no affinity with it - and I'm in my 50s!
Cheers Jon :)
Quote from: PostModN66 on September 09, 2013, 09:39:03 PM
Well, diesel and electric have been the dominant motive power for the last 50 years, so would be the natural choice for people who just want to make a model railway.
Modelling the steam era would be the preserve of a special minority interested specifically in "historical railway modelling", you would expect it to be less prevalent that the more mainstream D&E railway modelling.
I say this of course with tongue in cheek :o - but I think there is a grain of truth in it; why would someone, say, in their 20s now feel any particular desire to model something from their grandfather's generation, unless they had some additional specific historical interest? It does amaze me that the mainstream manufacturers still manage to bring out so many historical models that seem to find a market; I don't remember steam and feel no affinity with it - and I'm in my 50s!
Cheers Jon :)
Damn young people ;)
Quote from: Norfolkrover on September 09, 2013, 07:47:29 PM
Not a confrontationable post but as a newbie attending TINGS when diesel was seventy per cent prevelent I then went to GrantHam to see the mallard where the total opposite was the case over the deltic on view I just dont understand it. what do people see in diesels they just seem variations on a metalbox to me yet thesepeople are the die hards. Is it a bit why rock and roll descendedinto weired stuff like tangerime dream ? Ie the core interest wasnt enough ?
Good topic, and great to see people's answers. The reason why Diesels dominate is because they have ruled the roost since 1968 in the UK and since 1945 in the USA. France and Germany also have been dieselised at roughly the same time as the UK give or take a few years.
Reference the topic heading I think the reason we see more Diesel themed layouts is because of the Average age of the modellers concerned. I dare say the average age of N Gauge modellers now (myself included) grew up with early Diesel types, therefore being at an age where we can afford a hobby now we choose to model what we remember as kids.
I expect some people may disagree but that is the way I see it.
Steam, Diesel, Electric - tis all good ! As my signature says I love it all. I think most modellers can find something they like in each genre. I've traveled behind a S&D 7F working hard up an incline, and I've ridden in the engine room of a HST at 125mph, and rattled my brain cells inside a 47 on the load bank (static load testing) - All were awesome ! :claphappy:
In N gauge, I suspect that diesel sales are slightly higher due to some steamers being less reliable than the diesels - I don't wish to start a steam v diesel war, but I think that steam sales are dropping a little mainly due to more younger modellers joining our ranks who want to remember clag as much us older ones remember steam - evolution really !
I'm still waiting for my S&D 7F in N.... :heart2:
As a young child I was lucky enough to travel behind steam on days to the seaside. Hull to Withernsea and Hull to Hornsea. Sadly those lines went under Beeching, but DMU's had taken over by then. I did all my railway journeys up and down the East Coast Mainline in the 60's and 70's behind big growling Deltics, can still hear and smell them, a vision of total power so I love them as well. Not ridden on the railway since then so can't speak of modern stuff though often see EWS livery freight and find them impressive. I would happily model any era I suppose.
At 28 its not just case of not growing up with them, its a case of not being born within about 20 years of Steam Loco's being in service in the UK.
I can't quite remember when I knew I preferred Diesels, but it must have been young as I was more excited when I got to ride on a train powered by an 08 at the "Great Cockrow Railway" than the many steam engines. If I go back even further I used to look forward to episodes of Thomas the Tank Engine that had "Diesel" in them (hold on a tick, there is a Gronk theme here... :hmmm:)
May just have been that I didn't ever see steam being used. Now, like others on here, with me being a fan of fast noisy things (cars, jets, HSTs) my taste in ingrained and unlikely to change.
That's not to say I actively dislike steam (though the steam fleet on the SNBR seem to dislike me, burning me and / or acting up when I am near :().
I have huge respect for Scotsman/A3's, Mallard/A4s and Castles, but they were always exotic specials that were being pampered and preened in my lifetime (I suppose they have earned a nice retirement) .
Maybe I just like the "dirty" Diesels (especially freight types) earning a living, grafting away.
Skyline2uk
another why of looking at it is why can't diesel dominate here?
of course I don't want any form of traction to dominate over any other... and people can make posts about whatever they like.
i wasn't born when steam finished on british rail. therefore it's pretty obvious why i prefer to model diesel as this is all i can remember.
i do like steam and electric, and i take an interest in them both, but i prefer diesels.
in a few decades time i suspect that the vast majority of modellers will be diesel or electric as those who remember steam in everyday operation will be deceased. of course some will still model preserved steam or just model an era they don't personally remember, but i should think this will be a minority.
tim
I think it's what we grew up with that is probably the main influence; I was trainspotting in the mid to late 1940s, there were a few diesel shunters on the SR and LMS but we never saw them in Dorset in those days. What supports that influence theory is that probably 90% or more of my "spotting" was in East Dorset, ex LSWR territory with some LMS via the Somerset and Dorset, and that's what you will find on my layout or in my stock box.
QuoteI'm still waiting for my S&D 7F in N.... :heart2:
Bought my 7F kit on Saturday at TINGS, Lytchett Manor Models now own GEM and Fleetline and are reintroducing those ranges, I also got the SR Z class 0-8-0T, found I'm nearly out of 70º solder so I'm off to Ebay to find some.
Another way to look at it is this, Music:
In the 1960's the Beatles and the rolling stones were popular+mainstream.
In the 1970's Dave Bowie, the Sex pistols and ABBA were popular+mainstream.
In the 1980's Prince, Duran Duran,INXS,Madness were popular+mainstream.
In the 1990's Spice Girls, Blur, Oasis, Nirvana, U2 were popular+mainstream.
In the 2000's Eminem, Britney Spears, Westlife, were popular+mainstream.
In the 2010+ era, Katy Perry,lady GaGa,Bruno Mars are very popular.
My point is that model railways are the same. People will model what is trendy and popular now more so. Much like what we listen to now. However like the Beatles, Bowie, Duran Duran, Blur and Britney Spears we still play stuff from the near past with great fondness and admiration just the same as we run A3's, Deltics, Blue 25's and RfD Class 47's from the near past, just not as much as we did............
Quote from: Dorsetmike on September 09, 2013, 10:33:28 PM
I think it's what we grew up with that is probably the main influence; I was trainspotting in the mid to late 1940s, there were a few diesel shunters on the SR and LMS but we never saw them in Dorset in those days. What supports that influence theory is that probably 90% or more of my "spotting" was in East Dorset, ex LSWR territory with some LMS via the Somerset and Dorset, and that's what you will find on my layout or in my stock box.
QuoteI'm still waiting for my S&D 7F in N.... :heart2:
Bought my 7F kit on Saturday at TINGS, Lytchett Manor Models now own GEM and Fleetline and are reintroducing those ranges, I also got the SR Z class 0-8-0T, found I'm nearly out of 70º solder so I'm off to Ebay to find some.
I have a shrine which is a Farish box with a photo of 7F No 88 taped to it... :admiration: :admiration: :admiration:
I live in hope that one day Mr farish will make my beloved 7F - A kit will just simply won't do... :no:
I like just about anything that runs on two rails and have modelled BR in steam in O gauge for twenty years. Starting in N allowed me to model something completely different and as it involved my son we started off modelling the current scene he saw out in the world.
As he's become more interested his tastes have gone back twenty years. Still interested in diesels, just louder ones (and when there was more variety), but not exactly derived from his experience, other than at the odd diesel gala. Having said that, I never saw BR steam, having been born the month it left the scene, although my Dad indoctrinated me well!
I personally feel that N gauge models favour diesels, as they generally look more realistic than the steam models. I think it's because the valve gear lacks the 'heft' in this scale, although there are some exquisite models that come close these days! Diesels don't have this difficulty and look 'right' more easily.
I think these are the reasons we personally ended up modelling Diesels in N.
Apologies H my non complimentary remark re diesels was for sake of brevity but i also live next to the north norfolk railway and the general public do seem turned on by steam and seem dissapointed when diesels are used.I said TINGS was predominatley diesel because the high value stands for the conniseur eg mercig studio and CJM models were all diesel.No steam to be seen. I agree I lack appreciation and understanding of diesels but I do think Most ordinary people share my views.
A point here...
NorfolkRover is quite possibly right that ordinary people prefer to see steam, as it is different to what they see every day on current railways (the same with most tourist-oriented attractions, usually historical, such as stately homes and preserved mills). I wonder what proportion of attendees at shows are ordinary people vs. modellers, and to what extent should shows aim to satisfy each group.
Cheers Jon :)
Quote from: Norfolkrover on September 10, 2013, 03:21:03 AM
i also live next to the north norfolk railway and the general public do seem turned on by steam and seem dissapointed when diesels are used. . . . (snip) . . . . I agree I lack appreciation and understanding of diesels but I do think Most ordinary people share my views.
People generally go to 'heritage' and 'preserved' railways to see steam locos - it just about the only place you can see them - so they're bound to be a little upset when they break down and are replaced with other traction types. If you want to see diesels and modern trains then you don't need to go to such places and can see them on the 'real' network. That means that 'most' people at those preserved lines will be 'steam' enthusiasts and I don't think you can then extrapolate that as holding true for the rest of the population.
Preserved lines do also hold diesel galas for heritage diesels and at those time the lines are thronging with diesel enthusiasts - not kettle only fan to be seen. So should I then assume that most people prefer diesels because those type of people are all that have turned up and are all that can be seen at those events. Obviously not and therefore obviously not for seeing lots of people at steam events on preserved lines to assume most people prefer steam.
However, I can understand a large percentage of the population liking to reminisce and remember how things once were and longing for a simpler, easier life that they believe it once was. Steam is obviously part of that fanciful and idyllic past, but if you put steam locos on public services today they'd soon get fed up with the slow service, frequent breakdowns, and dirty smoke and smuts on their clothes - especially when they just want to get to work quickly, comfortably and cleanly.
Steam is nice in small doses such as at events on preserved lines - that why people go to them - but you do have to get back to the current real world (and sometimes that is also nice).
H.
Even in heritage you see the pattern (and quite intentionally). The percentage of coaches in GWR, C&C and Maroon liveries changes and its a clear pattern as to what is going on.
I do remember BR steam, but only because I was a student at Aberystwyth just before the witch made them sell off the VoR.
Alan
Quote from: EtchedPixels on September 10, 2013, 01:04:37 PM
I do remember BR steam,
I remember it quite well. I recall once, as a child, being lifted up on to the footplate of a kettle that had stopped at a station and the abiding memory was how hot, dirty, noisy and unpleasant it was. I preferred modern swish things and found electrics quiet, clean and fast by comparison - and to me the sliding doors and smooth profile design of the underground trains were the future (and before the sliding doors on Star Trek were seen).
H.
I look at it slightly differently (yeah, no surprises I know ::) ) but purely from a modelling perspective if you run a steamer through an even moderately complex set of points there is a fair chance that the pilot wheels, front bogie, call it what you will, will bounce all over resulting in a derailment, run a diesel through the same bit of track and it just keeps going, or maybe that is just my track laying. Either that or you stick to running 0-6-0 and 0-8-0 kettles ;)
Apart from that there is nothing (for me) that appeals as much as those sleek 50's US diesels :heart2:
If you insist on referring to Steam locos as Kettles, then I will respond with diseasels, there are also multi coloured toothpaste tubes or caterpillars crawling around the tracks of Notwork Fail. (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-fc/massmoon.gif)
Quote from: Dorsetmike on September 10, 2013, 02:34:34 PM
If you insist on referring to Steam locos as Kettles, then I will respond with diseasels, there are also multi coloured toothpaste tubes or caterpillars crawling around the tracks of Notwork Fail. (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-fc/massmoon.gif)
Coughs and Sneezzels spread diseasels !
Classic Thomas the Tank !
Well I am in my forties and I think Steam locos look beautiful. Modern stuff does not really do it for me.
But then I like planes but only really WW2.
Think I was born in the wrong era
But I have a soft spot for diesel shunters (as I remember from my childhood a little red shunter with a light on that I watched going round my dads track for hours - awesome)
Simon
Quote from: Dorsetmike on September 10, 2013, 02:34:34 PM
If you insist on referring to Steam locos as Kettles, then I will respond with diseasels,
Mike, I noted that you'd already done that earlier on another thread on the forum. At least 'kettles' is a term of endearment. :D
H.
Quote from: Skids on September 10, 2013, 03:07:00 PM
But I have a soft spot for diesel shunters (as I remember from my childhood a little red shunter with a light on that I watched going round my dads track for hours - awesome)
Triang Hornby R253 dock shunter. Basically a work of fiction designed to fit an existing motor bogie they had. Some day I shall find a suitable N gauge motor bogie to 3D print a 2mm spoof of it.
Alan
For me personally, I do like kettles as well as diseasels and will be just as motivated to go and se a diesel railtour as one with steam on the front. As for my model making, my preference was always for the 1950s and 1960s but the much better running that I can get from deasel mechanisms have encouraged me away from the era and now am developing my stock for my exhibition layout for around 1970 and have a reasonably large collection of modern, post 2000, stock as well.
Simon
I like both, and run both on my layout (though I prefer my diesels to be green rather than blue... Deltic prototype excepted!), though personally I find steam locomotives far more interesting and characterful, especially the everyday "workhorse" types like shunters, suburban tanks and 0-6-0 tender locos - partly because even in BR days there was such a huge variety of types around, some dating back to before WW1.
I suspect the greater reliability and smooth running of N gauge diesel/electric types compared to steam (large pickup area, all-wheel drive, no valve gear/rods/quartering to cause erratic running or pony trucks to derail on points) is a big factor in their being predominant at exhibitions. I know some of the newer steamers are as reliable as any diesel and that even old Farish models can run well under ideal conditions with clean, well laid track, but with a public exhibition it's arguably better to be safe than sorry and I know if I were ever to exhibit my layout I'd definitely run more diesel than steam.
Although I grew up in the BR blue/NSE/sectorisation era I've never had much interest in modelling anything beyond the end of steam, partly because I find the pre-rationalisation railways fascinating with all their infrastructure, goods facilities, sidings and obscure branches - not very efficient or economical by the 1960s but great fun to build and operate in model form. I actually find the pre-grouping and Big 4 eras more interesting than BR transitional (not having any memories of the latter myself) but chose to model BR on my N gauge layout due to the greater availability of locos + stock, including diesel types.
Triang Hornby R253 dock shunter. Basically a work of fiction designed to fit an existing motor bogie they had. Some day I shall find a suitable N gauge motor bogie to 3D print a 2mm spoof of it.
Alan
[/quote]
Alan you gem, it may have been a work of fiction, but this little boy loved it so much :laugh:
If you do a spoof Ill buy one just for having it
Simon
Quote from: Skids on September 10, 2013, 03:07:00 PMBut I have a soft spot for diesel shunters (as I remember from my childhood a little red shunter with a light on that I watched going round my dads track for hours - awesome)
My Dad had exactly that one - he told me all about it after seeing my class 47 with lights and being amazed (he has been out of model railways for quite some years now!)
He described exactly the same pkay with it too, turn the lights off and watch this thing go round and round.
Interesting thread this one is and some good points are made on both sides of the fence.Over the years,I'm 44 by the way,I have had one or two hobbies that have the same kinds of divides.
In the early 80's,like a lot of people,I got into home computers.I started off with a Sinclair ZX Spectrum then mved onto its competitor,the Commodore 64.In the home computer games market there was also this Spectrum v Commodore 64 situation where direct comparisons were made.This progressed onto the Atari ST v Amiga debate then came the games consoles,Sega Megadrive v Nintendo,Playstation v Sega Dreacast,Playstation 2 v Xbox and onto the PS3 v Xbox 360 v Nintendo Wii that still goes on today.
What is most at the helm of this is that like the many differing games platforms and games genres as well as music,everyones tastes are unique to others,some more unique than others in fact.I personally model BR Blue to sectrisation.I started exclusively modelling BR Blue but due to certain models looking good in later liveries,I decided to move it on a bit so there is more potential to buy more models.I even bought a Malcolm Rail class 66 at the weekend from TINGS along with a blue Warship and Regional Sprinter dmu.
There are factions that will say what do you model steam for or diesel for that matter.Its all to do with our uniquely different personalities.
There are a great many examples of this in other hobbies,such as classic cars or bikes.Its not just us,its everywhere,its also the reason why we have such a wide and varied choice in different classes of loco's,both steam and diesel/electrics.
Pete
:Class31: :Class37: :NGaugersRule:
Quote from: Skids on September 10, 2013, 07:59:47 PM
Quote from: EtchedPixels on September 10, 2013, 05:52:41 PM
Quote from: Skids on September 10, 2013, 03:07:00 PM
But I have a soft spot for diesel shunters (as I remember from my childhood a little red shunter with a light on that I watched going round my dads track for hours - awesome)
Triang Hornby R253 dock shunter. Basically a work of fiction designed to fit an existing motor bogie they had. Some day I shall find a suitable N gauge motor bogie to 3D print a 2mm spoof of it.
Alan
Alan you gem, it may have been a work of fiction, but this little boy loved it so much :laugh:
If you do a spoof Ill buy one just for having it
Simon
Not a complete work of fiction - the body is loosely based on the Bagnall design of the 1950s http://www.maciulaitis.com/nzrolling/ind_diesel/bagnall3144.jpg (http://www.maciulaitis.com/nzrolling/ind_diesel/bagnall3144.jpg)
Admittedly the chassis was almost nothing like the real thing!
Thats stretching "loosely" a bit. Thats beyond even Lima "loosely"
I don't think most N Gauge modellers mind people modelling the "other" type of motive power; It's just what the expectations are about shows that is maybe an issue. Up until now, perhaps that the expectation is that shows are OO, UK steam outline, with D&E and foreign layouts and N gauge being novelty items. Those who like the minorities having had specialist shows to indulge their specialisms.
Maybe now we are reaching the tipping point where at least with regards to Steam and D&E that increasingly D&E will become the norm, and Steam will be catered for by specialist shows (like the DEMU show has been up to now for D&E)?
Personally I am quite happy to see some steam layouts at shows such as TINGS. Although I don't relate to the historical era or the motive power on display, I can still recognise inspirational modelling when I see it regardless of era, geography or scale.
Cheers Jon :)
. . . because if you want to model the current day EMUs running on UK tracks then you are stuffed :'( Only choices are the London Midland Desiro* and the 1:160 Kato Eurostar :heart2: There are a much bigger selection of N EMUs from the continent and Japan.
Does this mean that our current members would ditch steam and diesels if such EMUs became available - probably not. Would new people be attracted to N gauge and our forum if such EMUs were available - then I think the answer is yes.
Quote from: H on September 10, 2013, 01:23:26 PM
. . . I preferred modern swish things and found electrics quiet, clean and fast by comparison.
H.
My thoughts exactly :)
Quote from: Dorsetmike on September 10, 2013, 02:34:34 PM
. . . there are also multi coloured toothpaste tubes or caterpillars crawling around the tracks of Notwork Fail. [/img]
Yes - isn't that wonderful :thumbsup: :claphappy: The design of some of these trains is so beautiful. This is the reason that I re-kindled my interest in trains. Not sure you can equate swishing through the countryside at 125 mph plus with crawling though :laugh:
*and as there are over double the number of 450s on the 'big railway' than 350s so I was surprised that they brought out the 350.
As someone born at the very tail-end of steam, I have really only one recollection of it, being held up by my Dad on a small bridge the far side of the town station when a steamer went under through the cutting presumably to the shed; I have an inkling this was one of the last trips ... (and sadly cannot verify it as my Dad is long-gone, and an uncle (who may have known, as he worked in the shed) died a few years ago).
So BR Blue diesels is what I grew up with, and the slam-door stock. Can't stand 'em !!! :thumbsdown:. In N, all I have is steam, more specifically LNER Grouping (there may be an odd one or two in very early BR), and even more specifically my layout is going to be set in the mid-late 30s (but with enough leeway to allow post-War to 1950 for those exceptions). In OO, the range is larger (modern diesels, non-LNER Grouping, BR steam) but LNER still plays a large role.
Will I get EMUs if they become widely available ? Maybe one, but probably not. They do nothing for me; ditto diesels in the main (there are some notable design exceptions, such as the 43). Despite really never knowing steam except on very rare tours (when BR had banned steam on the lines) and on heritage railways, they just have a hold on me that post-steam traction lacks ...
Mike
Quote. . . because if you want to model the current day EMUs running on UK tracks then you are stuffed Only choices are the London Midland Desiro* and the 1:160 Kato Eurostar There are a much bigger selection of N EMUs from the continent and Japan.
And now, of course, the N-Train Class 313 EMU kit. Not as up-to date as the Desiro, perhaps, but they are all still up and running around the south-east.
Plus the ModernImageModels Pendolino kit once it's finished - and the 323 kit, and if you can find it second hand Adam's 325.. (hint Adam ;) )
Hopefull if the 313 is a success some of the other standard and related shells will appear.
Alan
They are all planned - we are looking for decent reference pics of the Class 314 underframes to get the "MacPEP" ready. :D
Even my elderly mother is really impressed with the clean, pretty-coloured new trains
She remembers only too well what the steam era was really like ;)
I don't mind steam being in a minority or that N gauge is a smaller market than 00. The availability matches my wallet nicely. I do also think the diversity of the big 4 companies in the 30s in terms of colour and type of engine make steam more appealing. It is also was a source of pride for the provincial towns like Swindon , Crewe and Doncaster that we cannot replicate in our football teams.
I have chosen to loosely model the grouping era SR & GWR which makes me a steam fan. When I go to exhibitions I thoroughly enjoy layouts in all gauges and eras any well executed modelling gets my vote although I do have a preference for tracks through the countryside rather than the heavily built up and industrial ones. For me one of the advantages of the steam era is that in those days there was a far greater variety of freight in evidence, a mixed goods offers all sorts of operational interest.
I have always enjoyed travelling by train and still do, particularly handy for going on cultural tours (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-eatdrink009.gif) (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php).
:hellosign:
I am 65 so I still remember steam,so I suppose I still prefer steam to diesel,I can remember steam trains at Hounslow my Grandparents house backed onto the Hounslow Loop oposite the coal sidings at Inwood Rd.
It was shunted by a ancient 0395 or a 700,freight trains also ran past going from Feltham to the North London Line or Nine Elms,the only other trains were 4 SUB's both types.
Mind you if you have limited space a modern image diesel layout would be ideal,a straight piece of track with a platform and bus shelter one end,a tunnel the other end to hide the other end,and a either a Dapol 122 or a class 153 shuttling back wards and forwards,no signals needed,or a 1400 and Autocoach.
I really lost interest in railways after 1967,when steam on the Southern finally finished,mind you I started taking a interest in aircraft then,as I started to work for B.O.A.C IN 1965 as a General Apprentice.
B.O.A.C at that time were still operating Bristol Britannia's both 302 and 312,and Douglas DC7C's they were called Argonought's,and of coarse the Comet 4,I can remember the first Boeing 707 arriving.
:sorrysign: if I have bored every one
Michael H :A1Tornado:
I was born in Newport Pagnell (hence the Newport Nobby) in 1953 and raised in Wolverton so was of an age to see the last throes of steam on the LMR, along with diesels and thence to the electric era. As my Dad worked in Wolverton Carriage & Wagon Works I used to get 6 x Free Passes per year and 1/4 fare travel on the railways so travelled hugely as a trainspotter (although strangely no further north than Crewe ???). Oxford was my favourite spotting centre purely because of the range of stock to be seen - Western region, Southern region, London Midland region over from Bletchley, and Eastern region from the Cambridge to Oxford line via Bletchley flyover.
My age has decreed I model what I remember, so my layout is based loosely in the Oxford area and I can run either late steam or green/maroon diesels or both (my loco stock is about 50/50).
I'm not sure diesel does dominate on the forum but if it does I am convinced that, like me, the majority model what they remember so it's mainly age orientated I guess.
Hi Michael! As another aircraft man here I'll only say that the DC4Ms were the Argonauts, not the Seven Seas, and I'm sure it will have been the latter you saw. I'd better now talk about railways...
I suspect I'm unusual in being 66 but not interested in trains when I was young, probably due to not living near any line, other than briefly in Hartlepool. I grew interested when my very young son looked out of his bedroom window at the trains on the Blackpool-Preston line, and I realised that I'd better swot up quickly in order to stay a properly informed Dad! His first powered train was the Pacer. Sorry about the scale, but I think it worked better for him. I then decided I'd do a proper layout one day - I'm still working on plans for it. Luckily I found the railway modellers I knew at work were NER enthusiasts, for from an early stage I realised that whatever else it did, it would have to have long coal trains with those short fat J27s on the front. You can take the man out of the North East but you can't take the North East out of the man.
Realistic layout planning suggests those coal trains aren't going to be that long.
The reason I prefer to model steam era is that the whole period is much richer, it holds more of modelling interest - there's just a lot more going on and a lot more "furniture". How much this is influenced by the toys of my childhood I really can't say, but it probably is to a large extent. I'd sooner travel by more modern traction, if it's just a question of getting from A to B.
If you think there's a shortage of steam as opposed to diesel, think of the problems of finding any carriages pre-BR, and/or not mainline express. Now there's a subject worthy of a whinge of three.
Quote from: Michael Hendle on September 21, 2013, 02:04:12 PM
I am 65 so I still remember steam,so I suppose I still prefer steam to diesel
Hmmm, you don't sound too sure about that. :D
Quote from: newportnobby on September 21, 2013, 02:22:57 PM
an age to see the last throes of steam on the LMR, along with diesels and thence to the electric era.
Hmm, electric trains have been around in the UK for a lot longer than diesels. They go back to 1881 when Britain’s first electric passenger train was demonstrated at Crystal Palace. Looks like they've significantly outlasted steam.
H.
Steam is alive and well.. diesel still can't handle some mountain narrow gauge well. Its also making a quiet experimental comeback in heat scavenging systems for trains.
Electric locos are way lighter and usually simpler. Just need Network Rail to get on with replacing that inefficient dangerous 3rd rail for overhead as is long term planned.
Alan
Quote from: H on September 22, 2013, 10:01:23 AM
Hmm, electric trains have been around in the UK for a lot longer than diesels. They go back to 1881 when Britain’s first electric passenger train was demonstrated at Crystal Palace. Looks like they've significantly outlasted steam.
H.
Old I may be, but I'm not that old, Grahame :telloff:
Of course, as I was referring to the LMR region I was thinking of the AL series of locos and the AM10 EMU's, of which I saw every one.
Steam disappeared just before I was born, so the diesel era was mine as a child train spotter. Despite that, I'm modelling steam of 1930, and steam is still the main reason for my watching any railway-related programmes. I'm not sure if this is because I prefer steam, it's better looking, more varied, and more colourful, or because I'm also an historian, so modern isn't that interesting to me anyway.
I note that he forum header has mostly diesel, and that the only steam locos are American outline, no UK steam, could that not be construed as a diesel bias??????????? Also the additional "smileys" have only one steamer and that somewhat generic although it purports to be Tornado (a modern imitation (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-fc/whistling.gif) ).
:A1Tornado:
:hellosign:
Just a thought :idea:maybe the best thing to do would be a banner that shows a DMU,EMU,Diesel loco and a Steam loco,I have just seen another banner and it has 3 British Items a class 14,a DMU and what looks like a Jubilee Class, and a American switcher.
If anything I think there is more of a bias towards American loco's than steam v diesel,because the other banner has 2 American diesels and 2 American steam loco's.
Also possibly there could be another steam loco smiley besides the Tornado
:worried: I hope I'm not being to controversial as I'm a new member to the forumn
Michael H :A1Tornado:
I think one way to answer this is to ask another question: do people have more steam engine models or more diesel or electric models.
For my part, the steam engines are definitely in the minority. The steam locomotives I've owned -- with the exception of a Union Mills model -- are more likely to derail than the diesels and electrics. I think the light weight of pony trucks is to blame here, and compared to the solid weight on top of a diesel bogie (or for that matter the lack of pony trucks on the 0-6-0 Union Mills tender engine) makes those designs more reliable runners over less than perfect track-laying. Put another way, I'm happy to let a Bo-Bo diesel run around a layout for half an hour, but when running a 2-10-0 steam engine, I tend to keep a close eye on things and rarely have the train running about half its full speed.
Also, while some of the modern steam models look really good, but it is, perhaps, easier to manufacturer a well-detailed diesel or electric than it is a steam engine; steam engines tend to have more pipes and other bits that are either coarsely built or left off altogether.
Cheers, NeMo
:hellosign:
:
A bit :offtopicsign: I find the things that are more likely to derail are bogie coaches and trucks,they are far to light the least little bump in the track ( or tap from cats paw) and they come off the track.
Mikael H :A1Tornado
Quote from: Michael Hendle on September 22, 2013, 03:32:12 PM
:hellosign:
:
A bit :offtopicsign: I find the things that are more likely to derail are bogie coaches and trucks,they are far to light the least little bump in the track ( or tap from cats paw) and they come off the track.
Mikael H :A1Tornado
I must be in the minority - I have unsecured Kato laid down on a tabletop with #6 points and I've never experienced a derailing of my mk1 carriages, even at full chat! Our cats however have knocked my class 47 off the layout and onto the carpet below...
After 2 weeks away from the forum (okay a quick peek every now and then) this sure is a hot topic.
It looks like any of us who are old enough to remember steam tend to lean towards that era. Unless you were unfortunate enough to live the wrong end of the Waterloo to Weymouth line (I lived at Wyke Regis), then a bunch of electric carriages may appeal to you... However in the mid 60's my family moved to Chippenham where my school was adjacent to the WR main line so I was subject to a diet of western region hydraulics. Then as I got older I became a regular at GWS Didcot so I turned back to the GWR. Now with the release of so many great models and a desire to win the lottery I am leaning towards my steam favourites with any green diesel that I can afford.
On review of these posts it is AN AGE THING!!!
Quote from: Dorsetmike on September 22, 2013, 01:43:46 PM
I note that he forum header has mostly diesel, and that the only steam locos are American outline, no UK steam, could that not be construed as a diesel bias??????????? Also the additional "smileys" have only one steamer and that somewhat generic although it purports to be Tornado (a modern imitation (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-fc/whistling.gif) ).
:A1Tornado:
I'm not sure if you are being serious or writing in tongue in cheek....
If the former - really??? Do you really see conspiracy where none exists?
Personally I don't really care one way or the other. I'm a kettle lover but all is good :D
Quote from: red_death on September 22, 2013, 04:29:31 PM
Quote from: Dorsetmike on September 22, 2013, 01:43:46 PM
I note that he forum header has mostly diesel, and that the only steam locos are American outline, no UK steam, could that not be construed as a diesel bias??????????? Also the additional "smileys" have only one steamer and that somewhat generic although it purports to be Tornado (a modern imitation (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-fc/whistling.gif) ).
:A1Tornado:
I'm not sure if you are being serious or writing in tongue in cheek....
If the former - really??? Do you really see conspiracy where none exists?
(http://www.freesmileys.org/custom/image/blush%5E_%5Earial%5E_%5E0%5E_%5E0%5E_%5ETONGUE%20IN%20CHEEK%5E_%5E.gif) or at least part way; more or less looking at it from the possible point of view of a guest looking to join - first impressions sort of thing. I did get that impression myself when I first browsed before I joined. I might have stayed away but Yahoo groups went ultra trendy with their Neo interface and screwed things up monumentally in so doing, on one group I was getting a message saying "This group does not exist" then about 15 seconds later adding a link to it.
I'm quite happy with NGF, now wish I'd joined sooner
Quote from: EtchedPixels on September 22, 2013, 10:21:18 AM
Just need Network Rail to get on with replacing that inefficient dangerous 3rd rail for overhead as is long term planned.
Not exactly happening quickly though. And certainly no plans to get rid of electrified rails on the London Underground - not exactly much room for catenary in the tubes. Plus the cost of raising bridges and tunnels on the network will require the sort of government cash injection that is needed for HS2 and that's not exactly going down a bundle. I think it's a safe bet that they'll be around beyond all our lifetimes.
H.
The cash needed is s lot lot less than HS2 and the payback very rapid. The power losses in 3rd rail are huge and the performance limited by this. The power saving and rolling stock simplification pay for it all pretty rapidly as a result. Dunno about you but I can see myself around for the "goodbye third rail" special.
Plus catenary works in the snow
Agreed on LU.. and probably IoW staying 3rd rail although the latter might just go light rail lpg/flywheel
QuotePlus catenary works in the snow
Not so happy with high winds though!
Quote from: Dorsetmike on September 23, 2013, 01:54:29 PM
QuotePlus catenary works in the snow
Not so happy with high winds though!
Properly built it is - the East Coast has huge problems because some moronic bean counter discovered they could put it up more cheaply if they ran slowly or stopped in high winds. It's another stupid short-termist mistake to add to the collection.
I want to be a steam modeller but so far I have had nothing but bad experience's with them, WD 2-8-0 aside. Steam is well before my time (30) but I'm completely fascinated by it and I always liked hearing my grandad's stories from his time working on the railway's.
Unfortunately my experience with purchases so far has been poor. I only own one steam loco (WD) but have purchased 5 other models, going through numerous replacement's until I gave up and swapped them for Diesels.
Diesel wise (class 14 aside) I have only had to return one - a Class 24 with disco lights.
The class 14's I tried all had quartering issues, IMO the biggest issue with steam at present. If this issue could be eradicated I would still own all of the other 5 steam loco's I wanted to own.
The newest Dapol designs have square axle ends which fixes that problem. Farish don't seem to have done that yet, and I sent two badly quartered 3MTs back before I gave up bothering with that model.
Alan
The 3mt was the one I gave up on too. I'll get round to the 5mt again but st the moment I want to enjoy the hobby and diesels make this possible virtually 100% of the time.
Hi
I can remember when Graham Farish first bought out their n gauge range you had either a great eastern tank loco,or the 0-6-0 GP Tank loco which was basically a 3F tank loco.painted in different railway company colours,then there was a set of 4 wheel coaches,and a generic set of bogie coaches again painted in different railway colours,then along came castle loco with miniscule bogie wheels and a not very good chassis.
Now jump 40 years forward and what have reallly good coaching stock and freight wagons,excellent bodies on steam loco's but some of the steam chassis are still as bad as the original Graham Farrish ones,bogies still jump,chassis some good some bad.
I've had in the past a 8F couldn't pull the skin off a rice pudding,bogie jumping,a 2-6-4T bought 1 sent it back after a couple of runs gears stopped meshing,sent it back,got another one,that wouldn't even move,tried a 3rd sent that back,wheel slipping on axle,gave up and asked for money back.
The first Graham Farish Diesel I bought was Lady Dianna Spencer,which is still running,never jumps The only decent
Grafar steam loco thet worked properly was a Jubilee which I bought when it first came out.
At present I have 3 Dapol steam loco's and 1 Union Mills loco,all run with out any problems,will I buy any more Grafar steam loco's doubtful,I might by a N class steam loco,as that is what I need for my branch line,but if it has problems then that's it.
Michael Hendle
Quote from: EtchedPixels on September 23, 2013, 11:22:24 AM
The cash needed is s lot lot less than HS2 and the payback very rapid.
The cost and hassle of all the civil engineering required to raise bridges and tunnels for the entire SE network has so far scared off every Government and potential investor. It's far cheaper to keep things running as they are, plus the politically will seems to be for complete new lines like HS2, Crossrail, the SW to NE London underpass and the LU extension to Battersea, plus glamour projects like Heathrow Express and the London Overground.
I can't see anyone bothering to invest in old lines simply to change the power supply. Electrifying current non-electrified lines yes, although it's new lines and new services that are required and what is more likely. But the recent/last electrifications in the SE has simply been nailing conductor rails alongside running rails - Weymouth extension, East Grinstead line, SLL connections and so on. Even the opportunity to convert the Lymington branch to OHLE was passed up with the use of diesels despite local protest.
H.
This is a post i wish had written myself stevie boy rather than starting the original post. you can get affordable sound in diesel as well. Im a newbie are you ? I wondered whether i might be ok if i had 20 years experience as some failures may be down to bad ballasting oiling or rerailing.
Quote from: stevieboy on September 23, 2013, 10:27:46 PM
I want to be a steam modeller but so far I have had nothing but bad experience's with them, WD 2-8-0 aside. Steam is well before my time (30) but I'm completely fascinated by it and I always liked hearing my grandad's stories from his time working on the railway's.
Unfortunately my experience with purchases so far has been poor. I only own one steam loco (WD) but have purchased 5 other models, going through numerous replacement's until I gave up and swapped them for Diesels.
Diesel wise (class 14 aside) I have only had to return one - a Class 24 with disco lights.
The class 14's I tried all had quartering issues, IMO the biggest issue with steam at present. If this issue could be eradicated I would still own all of the other 5 steam loco's I wanted to own.
Quote from: H on September 25, 2013, 10:10:24 AM
It's far cheaper to keep things running as they are
That isn't what the analysis says for the longer term
Specifically:
"The estimated capital costs of replacement of the 3rd rail system with 25kV AC overhead are less per kilometre than full renewal of the 3rd rail system, even taking into account the need to provide additional clearance through bridges and tunnels" (stats from analysis of Basingstoke-Bournemouth and East Croydon-Brighton)
In other words at the point your 3rd rail is life expired its cheaper to switch.
(and there is a reason most current 3rd rail stock is designed to convert or dual system)
"For main line purposes 3rd rail is a technically obsolete system"
The other important details are that a lot of the current 3rd rail infrastructure will be life expired within the next 20 years, that much of the bridge work on some routes will be needed for freight clearances and of course the Network Rail 'Electric Spine' project which will mean upgrading Basingstoke-Southampton.
The differences between 25kV and 750v are pretty major - energy efficiency alone is about 15% better which is a hell of a lot of money especially at rip off UK prices, as well as giving you faster acceleration, more trains and service in the snow.
See the LB&SCR were right all along ;-)
Just reverting to the 2012 NGF locomotive poll, we had in joint first place a class 25 and a class 33 (being covered by Farish & Dapol respectively), in joint 3rd place we had a class 50 and a class 22 (covered by Dapol), in joint 7th place we had a class 17 (being covered by DJ Models) and in joint 10th there was a class 23 (being covered by DJ Models)
Sadly the same attention has not been given to steam with Farish covering a Castle (2nd place in the poll) and an 'N' class (8th in the poll). :(
Are there still rumours that a Schools may make an appearance ???
Quote from: newportnobby on September 27, 2013, 05:02:54 PM
Are there still rumours that a Schools may make an appearance ???
If it doesn't I might have to change scales! Was that sighs of relief I just heard?
Its now 45 years since steam finished in England, younger people tend to model either the contemporary scene or what they remember from their youth, for me at 44 its blue and sectorisation era, blue era from my childhood with the last bits of green to sectorisation when i was a young hand driver.
I love steam, the images of the late Paul Riley, Derek Cross etc always make we want to recreate at some stage that late 60's period but tbh its before i was born.
Just my thoughts.
It seems to me that models of diesels in N Gauge just move more realistically than models of steam locos. In real locos I much prefer steam but the sensation of steam just doesn't really make the jump to electric train sets.
I model transition period, for two reasons - I remember it and I get to run steam and diesel. But from a purely practical view, it has been my experience over the years that N scale diesels - particularly long wheelbase ones perform better over N gauge trackwork than steam locomotives. This was especially true of the Poole stuff. In fact I read posts on here that suggest that even some of the new steam models can be problematic.
There is a booming heritage railway scene though where steam is very much alive and the engines we model can be seen in a non cramped affordable and scenic setting.
This compares to the more modern locos in real life settings which i associate with expense and overcrowding where its so rare to get a seat i cant wait for it to be over. I also loved reading lord of the rings but my failure to see real life orcs doesnt detract from my enjoyment of the book.
Interesting analogy! I just returned from my Frodo adventure and didn't see any orcs either - though I did see a lot of mountains...
With railways on 'em - Snowdon even had steam!! :bounce:
To those that haven't seen real life Orcs, you wanna see what wanders around East London at half four in the morning, you might change your mind ;)
Paul
Actually I did see a few there and thought about saying so but thought better of it. And it wasn't at 4am either.
Don't worry - orcs exist in Australia too.
:-\
Quote from: Sprintex on October 18, 2013, 06:02:09 AM
To those that haven't seen real life Orcs, you wanna see what wanders around East London at half four in the morning, you might change your mind ;)
Paul
Securiorc vans for example...
Quote from: Sprintex on October 18, 2013, 06:02:09 AM
To those that haven't seen real life Orcs, you wanna see what wanders around East London at half four in the morning, you might change your mind ;)
Paul
Hah! I moved out of East London just this year and was going to say something very similar. :D