I thought I'd start this thread after reading what people will be expecting at the International N Gauge Show this weekend. Feel free to add your thoughts on anything to do with exhibitions.
I will start the ball rolling with photography. I've been an attendee at many exhibitions and also run layouts at exhibitions, N Gauge, OO Gauge and O Gauge. What do people think about photography? For me, I feel it is courteous and fair to ask people running layouts whether they mind me photographing their work. Most people won't mind. They say immitation is the greatest form of flattery, and if I see a scene or detail I feel could fit well onto my layout, then I like to photograph it, or at least make notes. If my camera needs a flash for the photo, I will tell the operator about it.
Being on the other side of the layout as an operator, if someone asks me if I would object to photography, I will usually say No. However, one instance springs to mind at Stafford. I was helping operate a Modern Image OO Gauge Layout. It was late on Saturday afternoon and I was tired. This guy walks up to our layout with a tripod and expensive looking video camera. He makes quite a large space around him and sets his video camera in motion. He then proceeds to get a 35mm SLR out with flash, and proceeds to take multiple images of the layout. (His video must have been awesome with a flash every half a second). He took about 20 flash photos, put his camera away, stopped recording, picked up his video camera and walked away.
Myself and my two fellow operators couldn't believe it. This individual had not asked us if we minded him blinding us or pushing other people out of the way for him to get his pictures. I did hear he went to a continental layout a little later on and they complained to the exhibition manager about him. These guys were from France as well, and spoke to us after the exhibition, saying they couldn't believe how obnoxious he had been.
So, what do you think about photography or anything else to do with exhibition etiquette?
Andy
Simple answer: flash photography, ask first out of common courtesy to prevent blinding anyone. Any other photography or video then no asking necessary, after all it IS a public exhibition and as such people are free to make their own photographic record if they so wish :thumbsup:
As for moving other paying visitors out of the way he wouldn't have done that with me, in fact if he was that rude I'd have deliberately stood right in the way for as long as necessary! :D
Paul
I agree absolutely with Sprintex.
Photography is fine as long as you don't inconvenience anyone.
I've only exhibited at one show (I have another coming up) and some chap asked if I'd mind positioning a particular train (pannier and engineering train) so he could take photos.
No problem.
As for the guy with the video etc. I would probably have asked him (politely) to go away !
I always ask for permission before taking photos.
It also has the benefit in that I'll often be asked if I'd like a particular train posed - this then allows me to use a long exposure and no flash :)
My main lens for model railways has lost auto-focus so no photos at TINGS this year. The camera body doesn't have reticles for manual focusing :(
Michael
I have to say "shutter bugs" do annoy me sometimes at shows especially when they block up the walkways, if they don't move after being politely asked I just move on by regardless!
The one thing that has surprised me though, is that no ones layout has been trashed by someone suffering a seizure from PSE (Photosensitive epilepsy) I guess that's a precaution which has been overlooked but something that could happen.
Quote from: Sprintex on September 03, 2013, 11:31:59 AMprevent blinding anyone. Any other photography or video then no asking necessary, after all it IS a public exhibition and as such people are free to make their own photographic record if they so wish :thumbsup:
It's a private location and your photographs may also include images of the operators. You need permission to take photographs in a private location, you also need permission from anyone clearly recognizable if the photo is ever going to be published anywhere unless it falls under one of the other exceptions. Not many folks seem to say no - although a couple I've seen say no to the professional mag photographers (on the grounds the photographer is making money from the work of the modeller who is seeing none of it)
You can stand on the main road and take all the photos you like (privacy considerations aside) but you won't get much good material 8)
I do find some photographers annoying. They appear to think that possession of a giant camera (usually with a foot long lens set on the front like some statement of anatomical inadequacy) entitles them to stand where they like. When that doesn't work they then deploy the tripod to stab, bash and trip everyone out of the way. :veryangry: :veryangry:
Thankfully most photographers are better behaved ;)
Alan
Like most public events, you will always get your pushers and shovers unfortunately. I think most folk don't even realise that they are doing this. They just get caught up in the heat of the moment wether it chasing a bargain or trying to get the ultimate picture however consideration for others is paramount and good venue staffing should be in place to ensure people are reminded not to act like raging bulls!!
Regarding photographer's, Manners cost nothing ! just be polite, consider others around you and ask permission before you snap any pictures for reasons already pointed out in this thread.
Above all just be considerate to people around you and people will act calmer.
Simples........
I tend to use a bridge camera at shows (and at home) in preference to a DSLR, you get far better depth of focus due to the much shorter actual focal length of the lens (ignore the "35mm equivalent" focal lengths often quoted) also you don't need to lug a load of different lenses about and if the camera has built in anti-shake mechanism then a tripod and flash should not be necessary under exhibition lighting. I do have 2 DSLRs and a load of lenses, but find I'm using them less and less.
I always ask permission to take photographs; once an exhibitor of a small 0 gauge shunting layout replied in a stand offish manner "only for your own private use"
Unless they is a sign at the point of entry saying no photography, then you are entitled to take pictures. Go to a shopping center and glass doors will have signs or engraving on saying no photographs, motor bike helmets and other items. Have had an argument with security on thissubject whilst working for a tenant.
Signs on layouts saying no photography are meaningless, unless there is a sign at point of entry.
Quote from: NtasticShop on September 03, 2013, 12:36:05 PM
Unless they is a sign at the point of entry saying no photography, then you are entitled to take pictures.
You don't have implicit permission. The signs are put up so that by taking a photograph you are automatically deemed in law to be a trespasser and the law of trespass can be used both to remove you and to collect damages. In particular it allows the centre security to use "reasonable force" to remove you if you decide not to leave. If there was no sign it might be harder to throw you out rather than just stop you. With the sign present security can simply throw you out.
In addition the laws on the rights to privacy apply (indeed these even apply for photography from a public place), as does data protection law.
Quote
Signs on layouts saying no photography are meaningless, unless there is a sign at point of entry.
The big big question is whether the layout operator is an agent of the exhibition management. If they are (and I don't know the caselaw on this if any) then they appear to have both the power to order you to stop (eg with their sign) and to "ask" you to leave.
You also have the small matter of copyright. A model railway is a copyright protected art work. Photographing a layout is hardly "incidental inclusion", and in most cases the layout is not *permanently* on public display so the exemption there does not apply.
Video is even more fun - if you have a nice piece of video of a sound loco running you may need rights clearance for the sound samples! Likewise the layout operator needs public performance rights to the sounds in their decoder. Not usually a big issue in the UK but in some countries its fun because "fair use" applies to things like using youtube downloads to make your own sound sets (generally illegal in he UK without permission) but not to public performance of the result.
Alan
Quote from: Dorsetmike on September 03, 2013, 12:33:54 PM
I always ask permission to take photographs; once an exhibitor of a small 0 gauge shunting layout replied in a stand offish manner "only for your own private use"
Perhaps he thought you were going to send it to a readers wives' mag. :D
By the way DM about depth of field comparing with a DSLR does this apply if the bridge camera
sensor is smaller? If it is the same size it wouldn't make any difference and would also
depend on the aperture and lens being used.
Re photography in public/private places Amateur Photographer magazine has had a long running
debate about this, many open spaces which might appear to be public are actually
private property , especially in the City of London.
As they say it's a minefield, luckily not literally.
Quotedepth of field comparing with a DSLR does this apply if the bridge camera
sensor is smaller? If it is the same size it wouldn't make any difference and would also
depend on the aperture and lens being used.
It's due to the smaller size sensor only requiring a shorter focal length lens to give the same coverage as a longer lens on a DSLR or 35mm camera. The shorter the focal length the greater the depth of field,
I am not aware of any bridge or compact cameras with the same size sensor as a DSLR.
I have to agree with sprintex, I'm planning to exhibit my layout next year and as far as i'm concerned, i'm showing my layout to the general public and the taking of photo's should be a given. I do feel though that if you're going to use the flash, you should let people know first...
As for the copyright issue, my layout 'Black Sheep Lane' has been copied already - it's almost identical ! :o But surely that why we exhibit, to inspire the next generation of modellers... Copying doesn't take much imagination, but when the skills have been learned they hopefully move on to their own ideas ;)
Changing the subject from photography, I hope the punters will wash, and wear deodorant as I believe this is a problem at some shows. The weather is expected to be hot over the weekend.
Perhaps I should bring a clothes peg just in case :D
Quote from: silly moo on September 03, 2013, 02:17:44 PM
Changing the subject from photography, I hope the punters will wash, and wear deodorant as I believe this is a problem at some shows. The weather is expected to be hot over the weekend.
Perhaps I should bring a clothes peg just in case :D
Fabreeze !
Quote from: Dorsetmike on September 03, 2013, 01:30:51 PM
The shorter the focal length the greater the depth of field,
So it's not the aperture that determines depth of field?
Quote from: silly moo on September 03, 2013, 02:17:44 PM
Changing the subject from photography, I hope the punters will wash, and wear deodorant as I believe this is a problem at some shows. The weather is expected to be hot over the weekend.
Perhaps I should bring a clothes peg just in case :D
You'll be in a relatively hot and crowded hall that people have driven a long way to get to after washing and spraying on deodorant. Normal levels of human smell will therefore exist and I'd recommend a clothes peg.
I'm flattered and slightly amazed when anyone wants to take a photo of my layout, I would never say no or be offended if someone didn't ask permission. But I do like at least a token amount of conversation - it's great when someone talks to you rather than just silently snaps then walks away - and it works the other way when I am a punter at an exhibition!
Cheers Jon :)
Quote from: ScottyStitch on September 03, 2013, 03:11:44 PM
Quote from: Dorsetmike on September 03, 2013, 01:30:51 PM
The shorter the focal length the greater the depth of field,
So it's not the aperture that determines depth of field?
It does, but only within any particular focal length. It has always been the case that DOF is relative to not only focal length, but the size of the (film/sensor) format used. In past film days this wasn't quite as clear or obvious as it is now in the digital age where the difference in the size of the sensors is more.
Generally speaking, a small digital compact camera with the smallest normal sensor size can produce at maximum/wide open aperture setting, a greater DOF than any DSLR can produce even at a minimum aperture setting, say f22/32/45. It is generally why they have few aperture settings but shots can appear more 'in focus', even at much slower shutter speeds.
Izzy
Quote from: Izzy on September 03, 2013, 04:18:14 PMIt does, but only within any particular focal length. It has always been the case that DOF is relative to not only focal length, but the size of the (film/sensor) format used. In past film days this wasn't quite as clear or obvious as it is now in the digital age where the difference in the size of the sensors is more.
Generally speaking, a small digital compact camera with the smallest normal sensor size can produce at maximum/wide open aperture setting, a greater DOF than any DSLR can produce even at a minimum aperture setting, say f22/32/45. It is generally why they have few aperture settings but shots can appear more 'in focus', even at much slower shutter speeds.
Izzy
Well explained - I was all ready to jump in then!
I am a photographer by trade. Some enthusiasts with cameras annoy me and give all camera users a bad name - their manners are appalling and if I were to act in their manner, I doubt I'd be able to work in the North West again! I think we all remember the discourteous ones, especially if they have a tripodded, gripped-up DSLR with massive 70-200 hanging off the front. I wouldn't go so far as to poke fun at this as it may be their best tool for the job, they are only after image quality; I'd only hope they'd be courteous enough to ask the layout owner permission and be mindful of those around them.
When I was a kid, I remember people who used to smoke at toy fairs and it always gave me a headache. I'm glad those days are behind us now!
I think the biggest courtesy on the day is to arrive washed, wearing deodorant and clean clothes while leaving the huge backpacks in the car.
Quote from: Dorsetmike on September 03, 2013, 01:30:51 PM
. . . I am not aware of any bridge or compact cameras with the same size sensor as a DSLR.
The Sony RX1 has a full-frame sensor, a fixed 35mm f2 lens and a price tag of £2500 :o
I have found that exhibitors are only too happy to help if you ask permission to take a picture. They have stopped the trains at places on the layout that I have identified and also run some of their stock specially :) I wish the train drivers on the Big Railway were allowed to do the same :laugh:
Quote from: Pengi on September 03, 2013, 06:17:03 PM
Quote from: Dorsetmike on September 03, 2013, 01:30:51 PM
. . . I am not aware of any bridge or compact cameras with the same size sensor as a DSLR.
The Sony RX1 has a full-frame sensor, a fixed 35mm f2 lens and a price tag of £2500 :o
I have found that exhibitors are only too happy to help if you ask permission to take a picture. They have stopped the trains at places on the layout that I have identified and also run some of their stock specially :) I wish the train drivers on the Big Railway were allowed to do the same :laugh:
Now be truthful Jane, have you actually asked them? :D
I'm like Bruce Willis, assuming no notices to the contrary I shoot first.
In similar vein, photography is not permitted in St Paul's or Westminster Abbey,
but is allowed in Canterbury Cathedral. I visited these places within 2 -3 days
last year and only took pix at Canterbury. To do otherwise would just be boorish.
One annoying thing is the jobsworths are quick enough to jump on anybody using a DSLR or Film SLR, yet completely ignore the phone snappers.
The excuses that get trotted out for clobbering photographers is that they could be terrorists planning an operation, fer pities sake why do they need to take photos, just fire up Google street view.
Quote from: Malc on September 03, 2013, 06:34:52 PM
Now be truthful Jane, have you actually asked them? :D
Sort of (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=11235.msg116765#msg116765).
p.s. The post makes references to the state of Wokinghan station and I am pleased that the upgrade is coming on a treat :claphappy:
Quote from: Pengi on September 03, 2013, 06:17:03 PM
I have found that exhibitors are only too happy to help if you ask permission to take a picture. They have stopped the trains at places on the layout that I have identified and also run some of their stock specially :)
Was at an exhibition a few years ago (can't remember where?) viewing Bevois Park & St. Denys (http://www.southernelectric.org.uk/modelling/news/2010-bevois-park-and-st-denys.html) when we remarked on a perfect 3-door Sierra Cosworth on the layout. The operator explained how he'd made it out of a Wiking Sierra XR4i, of which there was also a detailed example in white on the layout, then offered to stage an impromptu "car meet" of the two Sierras so we could take photos :thumbsup:
Paul
The good news for traders is that the weather is going to be a lot cooler and wetter this year. :D
Certainly it will be more comfortable than DEMU, where we were wilting (and also had to compete with the Wimbledon Mens' Final).
Good news to me as well. I land on Thursday in London to a predicted 30 degrees! I'm one of the few people living in Africa who doesn't enjoy the heat. I'm relieved the temperatures will be a bit more moderate for the show.
Quote from: silly moo on September 04, 2013, 08:17:48 AM
Good news to me as well. I land on Thursday in London to a predicted 30 degrees! I'm one of the few people living in Africa who doesn't enjoy the heat. I'm relieved the temperatures will be a bit more moderate for the show.
Ah a visitor to endorse the International part in the title of TINGS! ::) :)
Ah well - at least that means I can take the poisoned tip brolly to (a) keep the rain off when queuing to get in and (b) to take action against obnoxious sorts >:D
I've never been to a show... :-[
Quote from: Pete33 on September 04, 2013, 11:23:12 AM
I've never been to a show... :-[
Or me looking forward to the experience.
Armpits, backpacks and rude people aside it is still a great show and one I will keep going back to :) Can't say the same for Warley, wouldn't bother with that again :thumbsdown:
Paul
I agree with Paul about Warley. I'm operating an O Gauge layout there this year, but this will be the first time I'll have been back in five years. Dreadful place. By the time you've paid to get there, car parking, entry and something to eat, you could almost have bought a new locomotive and had it delivered in the post.
Andy
Most of my thoughts are along the lines of others here.
Ref Photos, I like asking as its an excuse to strike up a conversation. I have met so many nice layout owners this way. This year at Trainwest I got myself a posed photo of the (not yet released) Class 70 through asking.
I also met a really nice chap (shame on me for not remembering the layout name, but it has featured in NGS Journal) who was so grateful that I actually asked for a photo, that he went on to answer all of the (numerous) questions I had.....
QuoteWas at an exhibition a few years ago (can't remember where?) viewing Bevois Park & St. Denys
Agree with Sprintex on the operators of this fine layout. I once went to "RailWells" specifically to see it and, after asking, was allowed to take lots of close up snaps of the track work (I was ballasting Filton TMD at the time). Were it not for that experience, I may not have decided to paint my track.
Inspiration from top class layouts should always be the biggest draw to shows :-)
Quote from: Pete33 on September 04, 2013, 11:23:12 AM
I've never been to a show... :-[
If it is any consolation, neither have I but this year I am taking the opportunity!
I am getting quite excited, like being a boy again!
(Well my wife says that it is normal for me MOST of the time! What does she know! )
Regards, Peter.
Quote from: petercharlesfagg on September 05, 2013, 07:13:53 AM
If it is any consolation, neither have I but this year I am taking the opportunity!
I am getting quite excited, like being a boy again!
(Well my wife says that it is normal for me MOST of the time! What does she know! )
Regards, Peter.
That's at least three of us, then. There's one in October that will be local to me, so I guess I'd better get myself along and see what it's all about.
Peter
I agree it is only polite to ask if you can take photo's, I have never been refused and normally get a lot of information and help, as for flash if the layout is well lit I never use flash as my camera seems to cope very well without it.
Regards
Graham
Wow, it's like reading that you guys are more at the running of the bulls then at a train play day. I have never had an issue at any here then again we most liely don't get the crowds as you guys.
Sound like if I ever got the chance to come over and see a show, it sounds like I'd bring the breathing apparatus off the fire truck and some riot gear protection :D
Bart
Quote from: 1936ace on September 06, 2013, 09:44:33 AM
Wow, it's like reading that you guys are more at the running of the bulls then at a train play day. I have never had an issue at any here then again we most liely don't get the crowds as you guys.
Sound like if I ever got the chance to come over and see a show, it sounds like I'd bring the breathing apparatus off the fire truck and some riot gear protection :D
Bart
Do not forget the stretchers and the ambulance with the bell on top, and nursing staff and ambulance personnel dressed in 50's attire, that should keep us entertained for 10 minutes. :bounce:
:D
Yeah I remember I was remembered as the "curly haired bloke", I really should introduce myself ;D
Thanks again for that, you guys are a credit to the exhibition circuit.
No I didn't notice the Mk2's, I have a bit of a blind spot with coaches, mainly cos I haven't got the space for long trains on my layout, but good scoop none the less :thumbsup:
Skyline2uk
Some good replies on here.
I agree about asking before taking photo's with a flash.
I've never minded people videoing or taking photos of my layouts at exhibitions but flash can blind the operator!
As a punter I would suggest the following:
When looking at a layout, try to make space for any kids if you can as they are the hobbies future and we all want them to have maximum exposure to keep them hooked! :laugh:
Obviously have a wash, use deodorant and antiperspirant, use a compact camera or mobile for photo's, leave the giant rucksack at home as traders have things called carrier bags these days to put your goodies in, try not to push and shove as a polite 'excuse me' often works best and give way to those in wheelchair/mobility scooter users coming towards you as they have the toughest time of all at exhibitions.
As an exhibitor I would suggest the following, from my own experience:
Smile! Unhappy looking operators tend to drive people away from your layout.
Be polite and try to answer questions even if they've been asked a 1000 times before.
Try to keep something running as this keeps the viewers interest.
If something stops when it shouldn't, don't be too embarrassed to give it a prod as the public then know you have the same problems as they do at home!
Obviously if it keeps happening you need to do something about it.
The above are only from my experience and may not suit everybody...
QuoteTry to keep something running as this keeps the viewers interest.
But please exhibitors try not to leave the same train running contiuously for more than a few minutes, I recall once seeing the same train looping continuously for over 15 minutes (I was on an adjacent stand)
Quote from: GeeBee on September 05, 2013, 11:39:15 PM
I agree it is only polite to ask if you can take photo's, I have never been refused and normally get a lot of information and help, as for flash if the layout is well lit I never use flash as my camera seems to cope very well without it.
Regards
Graham
I agree, I always ask if it is OK to take photos and try not to use flash (if I think I'll need it I'll say.)
As I see it if you
ask to take a photo or two you show you are interested in the exhibit and are more likely to get a positive response from the person behind the layout.
I have had locos/trains positioned so I get the best possible shot for my own personal use.
I must confess I never thought some layout operators would have a problem with me taking photos so I'd never thought to ask. But then my pictures would always be quick snaps with a mobile phone or small camera. In the future I'll be more considerate, having now spent a little time on the other side of the layout (in a manner of speaking) I do appreciate that a camera flash can be a pretty distracting thing.
Watching the crowds at TINGS yesterday I have to say that anything carried on the back is a downright liability. Getting clouted by a back pack doesn't bother me too much, I'm big enough and ugly enough to withstand a bit of a battering. But I saw someone carrying a baby on their back, who nearly knocked an old lady over. Luckily it was only nearly but I know I'd feel pretty bad if I accidentally knocked someone over.
QuoteWatching the crowds at TINGS yesterday I have to say that anything carried on the back is a downright liability. Getting clouted by a back pack doesn't bother me too much, I'm big enough and ugly enough to withstand a bit of a battering. But I saw someone carrying a baby on their back, who nearly knocked an old lady over. Luckily it was only nearly but I know I'd feel pretty bad if I accidentally knocked someone over.
Precisely why I have long since ditched the backpack.
New tactic is to only carry what I need on me (wallet, keys, guide, small camera). I take food with me too but this year left it in the car and just popped out to the car when I was hungry.
This works well at most shows with a car park nearby, or when its not raining! It would not work at Warley (yes I know this is a less than popular show on here, but I love it as its now a tradition for me), so will probably carry that in a plastic bag. Backpacks don't work.
Skyline2uk
Backpacks are a hazzard in other places. I say this having commuted to and around London (main line and underground) for some decades until I retired. However the issue is that these, and by extension child carrying versions, are often used by those who have no idea how to "drive them", no sense of geometry. Goodness knows what they might be like as car drivers. So they swing round and if you happen to be in the wrong place it is your fault. On one occasion I lost my cool and shoved it back hard. I leanred some new words! I think procreation and doubts abpout my parentage was involved.
So by all means use them but only if you are able and willing to allow for them as you move around.
for myself at larger shows I do use a small rucksack, usually over my shoulder. It avoids using too many single use carrier bags.
Having just exhibited at the West Cornwall Model show another 2 frights became apparrant 1 Large ungainly handbags precariously balanced on one shoulder and under no control what so ever (5 Tornado's in dire danger of being smashed on to the floor) and 2 4 year old fingers when parent says "ooh look he wants to touch every thing" :veryangry: GRRRR :veryangry: does make a display quite stressfull which is a shame as it is my hobby and should be enjoyable :thankyousign:
Quote from: Portpatrick on September 08, 2013, 09:30:48 PMat larger shows I do use a small rucksack, usually over my shoulder. It avoids using too many single use carrier bags.
We collect N gauge, surely we can't buy enough to fill the space of a single carrier bag?!! :D
Reading through back packs etc are a pain but having done Grantham show i would ask the operators on some layouts to lighten up and engage more with the paying public even with my exhibitor badge on they were miserable so & so and would talk after all we are playing trains the feed back i got from my was very good because we engaged with the public and when a camera came in sight we asked if the picture taker wanted the trains posing for the picture and that we always had some thing running.My thoughts of many some to rude to put in
Kevin
I know different exhibitors will have different ideas about how they want to run their layout, and how much engagement they want to have with the public, but I have to say (as I mentioned elsewhere) that Castle Brewery is an object lesson in how to run a crowd-pleasing layout.
The layout featured three running lines with trains continuously circulating on the outer two and the inner loop for stopping passenger and goods trains. Trains on the outer lines were changed frequently, The inner loop could be run from the front of the layout which allows the person at the front to carry out shunting and engage with visitors. There was nearly always something moving but it wasn't just the same couple of trains endlessly circulating. There was always someone on hand to answer questions and even give anyone who looked willing a chance to do some shunting.
Also there was some written information by the side of the layout along with a list of things for people to try and spot in the scenery and on the trains.
I don't have any connection with the people who own and operate Castle Brewery, I'm just a satisfied punter.