This post is about fracking in the UK.
I'm interested to know people's opinions on fracking since it has been suggested (by some Lord or other) that we have fracking here in the north east. Call me a cynic, but if someone is suggesting in the H of L that it should be in the NE, then it must be bad, mad and ugly.
I really no nothing about fracking so some facts might be useful.
Anyone?
Although I cannot be 100% sure, I doubt very much whether there are any fracking experts on NGF, so if you wish to find out more then may I suggest you use one of the many search engines available to you and search the web.
This is a high politicised subject and nothing that is said on NGF will make a blind bit of difference to the extraction of gas using the fracking method anywhere in the country.
May we stick to n gauge and chat about something we all enjoy ;)
Thanks John.
I could of course google it. But I value the opinion of fellow n gaugers, which was why I asked here. I thought it was about future energy needs.
There was a BBC2 documentary about it recently based mainly on US experience. The balance of expert opinion was in favour of it provided that the environmental concerns (such as pollution of groundwater) were properly controlled, unlike in the US where there has been a free-for-all and some water sources have been poisoned. I am not sure that the North East has the right sort of rock for fracturing to extract gas, but Derbyshire certainly does. Lord Howell has now apologised for his stupid remarks in the Lords today.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b02zldds (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b02zldds)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydraulic_fracturing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydraulic_fracturing)
Of course there is a possible layout here for bringing in raw materials for drilling/fracturing and removing condensate.
As an aside there was a big move in the last decade to using maize to produce ethanol, and there are kits for the necessary plant involved. I was surprised to learn that Ford Motor Company in the US had a plant producing rayon from corn back in 1938!
So not everything we think of as new is really so.
Simple version - drill into ground down about a kilometer or so... then drill horizontally to access required area. Now pump in at high pressure, water and various chemicals which causes rocks to fracture, releasing the gas within. The gas then flows to the top and is collected.
Known issues with this are water table contamination and possible seismic activity....
Benefits - lots of untapped resources worldwide, should lower price of Natural gas (what we use at the moment)
I'm not keen on idea personally, but it's still a relatively new industry so it may be a bit early to pass judgement yet...
Quote from: scotsoft on July 30, 2013, 06:51:44 PM
Although I cannot be 100% sure, I doubt very much whether there are any fracking experts on NGF
Yeah but the people on NGF are very friendly though. :D
Only joking but I couldn't resist. :)
Thanks for those responses. Most helpful.
I'll see if I can find the bbc 2 programme on iplayer.
Quote from: woodbury22uk on July 30, 2013, 07:23:55 PM
As an aside there was a big move in the last decade to using maize to produce ethanol, and there are kits for the necessary plant involved. I was surprised to learn that Ford Motor Company in the US had a plant producing rayon from corn back in 1938!
So not everything we think of as new is really so.
That's really interesting to me. Right next to the freight liner terminal at Wilton, Teesside, is exactly that, a biofuel plant. Now that really is a political hot potato round these parts. Why? Well it's hardly ever operated for various reasons, but when it does, it stinks! It's closed at the moment due to it not being economically viable.
Cheers
Kirky
A highly emotive subject, but all options should surely be considered.
Whilst Lord Howell's comments made have been made without detailed thought, his implication that fracking should centre on less densely populated areas is essentially sound. The local MP perhaps ought to take a reality check before condemning his comments as 'offensive'. Offensive...really? Poor delicate little flowers!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-23510479 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-23510479)
Quote from: Agrafarfan on July 30, 2013, 08:08:41 PM
Quote from: scotsoft on July 30, 2013, 06:51:44 PM
Although I cannot be 100% sure, I doubt very much whether there are any fracking experts on NGF
Yeah but the people on NGF are very friendly though. :D
Only joking but I couldn't resist. :)
It must be my Scottish accent :smiley-laughing: :smiley-laughing: :smiley-laughing: :smiley-laughing:
I wonder if any of our American modellers (or even modellers in America) have included fracking on their layouts, as it has been happening there big style.
Quote from: Claude Dreyfus on July 30, 2013, 08:23:56 PM
The local MP perhaps ought to take a reality check before condemning his comments as 'offensive'. Offensive...really? Poor delicate little flowers!
I note that you don't live anywhere near the areas suggested by this prat - maybe you would feel differently if they were to start fracking under your house ?
Frankly, he was out of order and showed the lack of consideration many of his ilk flaunt to the rest of the population. No doubt he has a lot of land "down South", so why don't we frack under there as I doubt it will be a built-up area so plenty of space (one of his considerations) ! Oh, sorry - different rules for the rich and the South East, I forgot ...
Mike
(only partially tongue-in-cheek)
Quote from: Claude Dreyfus on July 30, 2013, 08:23:56 PM
The local MP perhaps ought to take a reality check before condemning his comments as 'offensive'. Offensive...really? Poor delicate little flowers!
I think if Lord Howell dismissed Lancashire as a desolate area I might have something to say as well :veryangry:
Having been at the forefront of fracking in the UK in our area, I might welcome the earth moving for me :dighole:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-23504883 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-23504883)
Okay, not fracking for gas, but a similar process...
Quote from: Kipper on July 30, 2013, 08:48:09 PM
I wonder if any of our American modellers (or even modellers in America) have included fracking on their layouts, as it has been happening there big style.
No, haven't modelled it. Yes, fracking has been "happening [here in the US] big style." As someone else in this thread mentioned, it has largely been a complete free-for-all with very little oversight or regulation, and also frankly very little study about long term consequences. Soil subsidence, groundwater contamination, and induced seismic activity have been problems of varying degree depending on locale and geology.
I can't but help think I am being told a whopper by the oil and gas extraction companies that "this won't hurt a bit." We shall see, but as they say, there is no free lunch.
Matt
Quote from: Claude Dreyfus on July 30, 2013, 10:00:13 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-23504883 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-23504883)
Okay, not fracking for gas, but a similar process...
off topic probably,
but I wonder 1. how many of these protesters actualy live in or near Balcombe ?
and 2. is it me, or do they look mostly like the usual rent-a-mob that turn up at any by-pass / dual carriageway / etc ?
certainly any genuine concerns won't be helped by 'protestors' cutting lorry brake pipes etc as reported a couple of days ago.
Quote from: class37025 on July 30, 2013, 10:46:56 PM
Quote from: Claude Dreyfus on July 30, 2013, 10:00:13 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-23504883 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-23504883)
Okay, not fracking for gas, but a similar process...
off topic probably,
but I wonder 1. how many of these protesters actualy live in or near Balcombe ?
and 2. is it me, or do they look mostly like the usual rent-a-mob that turn up at any by-pass / dual carriageway / etc ?
certainly any genuine concerns won't be helped by 'protestors' cutting lorry brake pipes etc as reported a couple of days ago.
Quite possibly. I certainly agree that any protests are immediately undermined by criminal damage...
Balcombe is quite a rural area, and I think that was what Lord Howell was driving at when he made his comments (however clumsily put) was that if shale gas extraction needs to happen (and the government(s) say it does), then it would be better to do it in areas where there will be no impact to people living there...
...and no, I don't just mean the rich or those in the south east (which, incidentally, has deposits of its own that will no doubt be extracted (or at least have investigative drilling)).
When he made his comments, I don't think he was suggesting someone set up an extraction site right in the middle of Darlington or Newcastle!
Just as a quantifier about my comment about being offended. Howell's comments were thoughtless, and yes, perhaps out of touch, but offensive? I'm sure it would take far more than suggesting parts of the north east are 'desolate' to offend the locals, and somehow I don't think his comments reflect a genuine government policy to centre all fracking activities in the north (from wherever the arbitrary line now seems to exist that delineates the two 'halves' of the country).
Is fracking a bad thing? There is plenty of circumstantial evidence that could go either way - the link between fracking and earthquakes (tremors) has (apparently) been officially ruled out, so we're back to the usual subsidence, pollution and increased traffic arguments that accompany any mineral or fuel extraction. The bottom line is that we all use the energy in one way, shape or form...
Quote from: Claude Dreyfus on July 30, 2013, 11:11:03 PM
Is fracking a bad thing? There is plenty of circumstantial evidence that could go either way - the link between fracking and earthquakes (tremors)
has (apparently) been officially ruled out, so we're back to the usual
Actually thats not true - in fact the reverse is true. The fact water injection causes earthquakes is considered proven beyond all reasonable doubt. The fracking industry tries to pretend otherwise (like the coal industry and climate denial) but it's been well known since the 1960s when it was observed with geothermal power and with oil injection wastewater (another quite foul process used in the USA). US fracking and earthquake frequency analysis has confirmed the existing evidence comprehensively. It also showed that the US has gone from 21 earthquakes of magnitude 3+ average consistently from 1967-2000 to 300/year in 2010-2012....
The most recent major study backing this up is the USGS study (ie the US government).
(outside of fracking this btw is considered terribly *good* news because it validates theories from the 1970s that it ought to be possible to use a mix of water injection and water removal to stage "controlled" earthquakes along major faultlines and swap the enormous city levelling quakes for 5 or 6's in stages).
Quote
subsidence, pollution and increased traffic arguments that accompany any mineral or fuel extraction. The bottom line is that we all use the energy in one way, shape or form...
We also all user water and water is a more precious resource. Fracking uses enormous quantities of water and even if it is successfully pumped deep down and isolated from the supply after fracking occurs, its *gone*. In the US its led to serious water pollution problems.
You really don't want to pollute the water in the North East - its relatively short supply and its rather important to the industry and the agriculture.
The earthquake problem is also more serious for the UK - not only is it population dense but our natural earthquakes are few and weak. Our building codes are basically devoid of earthquake considerations. A lot of US fracking areas have earthquake codes which have limited damage done.
A lot of our railway network for example is vulnerable to earthquake damage. The tunnels and embankments are not built for it, all the huge brick station buildings are not earthquake safe at all and certainly wouldn't stand a 5.6 quake (which is the largest observed US quake fairly firmly linked to wastewater disposal - although in this case not from a well used in fracking)
It'll do wonders for your house insurance costs too!
Alan
Quote from: scotsoft on July 30, 2013, 06:51:44 PM
Although I cannot be 100% sure, I doubt very much whether there are any fracking experts on NGF,
I doubt that will have any influence on posts.
Never has before. :D
Colin
Alan is right that the link between fracking and earthquakes is known, though the real question is whether those earthquakes are serious enough to worry about (there is a heck of a difference between 3 and 5.6 on the Richter scale!). Parts of the UK are not as seismically inactive as might be imagined, but they are just very low on the scale events.
On the water pollution aspect there are various points to it:
- water scarcity, as Alan points out the UK does have problems in some parts of the UK with water availability
- failures of the well linings letting gas into the aquifers - could be a problem particularly (as in the USA) if the linings are poor quality.
- water pollution from the fracking mixture into the aquifers. Depends on the fracking chemicals used (trade secret in the USA, but public data in the UK/EU) and the concentrations used. If you put a reasonably small amount of a toxic chemical into lots of water you essentially still have lots of water (depending on the chemical in question)
Cheers, Mike
Not just the chemicals pumped in but also stuff naturally coming out of the rock. In some areas that is heavy metals like lead.
Quoteso we're back to the usual subsidence, pollution and increased traffic arguments that accompany any mineral or fuel extraction.
Weren't the same sort of arguments used against coal-mining? (And where would we kettle-lovers be without that?)
Come to the 'desolate' North East and see if you can point out where the mines used to be! They're nearly all landscaped now.
QuoteYou really don't want to pollute the water in the North East - its relatively short supply
What about Kielder, the largest reservoir in the UK?
And still subsiding and polluting. Same in Wales although some of the spoil heaps are now themselves being reprocessed for all the crap coal nobody wanted then but now is ideal for power stations.
Quote from: oscar on July 31, 2013, 11:28:40 AM
Quoteso we're back to the usual subsidence, pollution and increased traffic arguments that accompany any mineral or fuel extraction.
Weren't the same sort of arguments used against coal-mining? (And where would we kettle-lovers be without that?)
Come to the 'desolate' North East and see if you can point out where the mines used to be! They're nearly all landscaped now.
QuoteYou really don't want to pollute the water in the North East - its relatively short supply
What about Kielder, the largest reservoir in the UK?
Hi Pete
To be fair, we don't have many coal mines in Teesside! And from what I can gather, it isn't really about the aesthetic effect on the environment, more to do with being poisoned by chemicals and whatever te fracking forces from the rock.
BTW are you coming to the exhibition, Saturday or Sunday? If you are, say hello, Im on the dcc demo stand.
Kirky
Quote from: NinOz on July 31, 2013, 10:31:48 AM
Quote from: scotsoft on July 30, 2013, 06:51:44 PM
Although I cannot be 100% sure, I doubt very much whether there are any fracking experts on NGF,
Colin
Sounds like script from Father Ted!
Quote from: kirky on July 31, 2013, 01:06:31 PM
Quote from: oscar on July 31, 2013, 11:28:40 AM
Quoteso we're back to the usual subsidence, pollution and increased traffic arguments that accompany any mineral or fuel extraction.
Weren't the same sort of arguments used against coal-mining? (And where would we kettle-lovers be without that?)
Come to the 'desolate' North East and see if you can point out where the mines used to be! They're nearly all landscaped now.
QuoteYou really don't want to pollute the water in the North East - its relatively short supply
What about Kielder, the largest reservoir in the UK?
Hi Pete
To be fair, we don't have many coal mines in Teesside! And from what I can gather, it isn't really about the aesthetic effect on the environment, more to do with being poisoned by chemicals and whatever te fracking forces from the rock.
BTW are you coming to the exhibition, Saturday or Sunday? If you are, say hello, Im on the dcc demo stand.
Kirky
Aye, Kirky, but he didn't say Teesside just the North in general.There were similar fears about 'disappearing into the earth' with the coal mines.
And my house is built over an ironstone mine!
I'm going to try for the weekend if I don't forget! I'll buy you a cuppa!
Pete
Things falling into old mine workings like this story http://www.edp24.co.uk/news/collapsing_mines_still_a_threat_report_1_695831 (http://www.edp24.co.uk/news/collapsing_mines_still_a_threat_report_1_695831) :D
Model that!!!!
I work in oil/gas drilling, but not specifically in fraccing (yes, that's how we spell it).
Fraccing has been happening for decades, and there have been very few problems, the most famous being:
> Some folks in USA have managed to set light to "gas" coming out of their taps, and stick it on youtube.
> A very minor earthquake in Blackpool (where there was already a geological fault which could/should have been avoided).
We frac when we have drilled a well, found oil/gas, but it won't flow due to lack of permeability. The objective of fraccing is to create permeability in non-permeable reservoirs by applying pressure to create fractures through which the gas can flow.
We might then inject chemicals to wash out the rocks' cement, or proppant to prop the fractures open.
We'd rather not frac as it's expensive, not because it's harmful.
It's low risk unless there are already faults in the area, or if it's close to surface. (Typically it's 2000-3000m, but recent cases have been shallower).
Quote from: mereman on July 31, 2013, 04:25:10 PM
Things falling into old mine workings like this story http://www.edp24.co.uk/news/collapsing_mines_still_a_threat_report_1_695831 (http://www.edp24.co.uk/news/collapsing_mines_still_a_threat_report_1_695831) :D
That must have been more like a big pothole rather than a proper mine! ::)