Hi Guys,
My first proper posting on here, I'm new to all this model train stuff. Trying to put together a simple layout to keep my grandsons happy. I have a baseboard app 4ft x 2ft together with a PECO starter pack and a couple of controllers. My aim is to build two "concentric" ovals, running independently from two separate controllers. I plan two positions where a pair of points will allow crossover from one oval to the other (in either direction). The inner oval will have sidings and will be a notional "goods yard". The outer oval will represent a passenger line, running coaches (my grandson says it has to have a station and signals. As a retired electronics engineer I have no problem wiring up the electrics to do all of the above, however I do have one concern. The basis of the above is to allow both grandsons to play on the layout together, without bothering the other (ie each running a train on one oval track) however I can see there will be a time when one gets fed up and the other wants to run his train on all the track. from a safety and control point of view, this will mean disconnecting one controller from the system. I can see no problem doing this, electrically, with an appropriately connected switch, but I anticipate the time when enthusiasm overcomes the need to "throw the switch" thus my question is "is there a recognised way of achieving this interlock which is foolproof in a child's hands. I have looked at adding microswitches to the points to inhibit operation of both controllers unless both lines are disconnected from each other, but as yet have not found the perfect solution.
TIA.
I have built layouts viewed and operated by children and more recently grandchildren.
Given their desire to see crashes (influenced by Hollywood's predilection to destroy vehicles perhaps ?) there is no fail safe system other than different not connected circuits !
Sorry, Chadders, but all I can think is to hide the switch somewhere only you know the location :-[
Quote from: newportnobby on June 17, 2013, 08:46:12 PM
Sorry, Chadders, but all I can think is to hide the switch somewhere only you know the location :-[
Difficult with today's youngsters, they know instinctively how to work anything. Our 2 y/o grandson knows the difference between the 3 remote controls for TV, DVD player and recorder, he also knows how to use all of them to find what he wants to watch. If I can't find a particular tool in my workshop, I ask my 5 y/o grandson - he can find anything, even tools which he doesn't know what they are!
Quote from: oldchadders on June 17, 2013, 09:55:15 PM
Quote from: newportnobby on June 17, 2013, 08:46:12 PM
Sorry, Chadders, but all I can think is to hide the switch somewhere only you know the location :-[
Difficult with today's youngsters, they know instinctively how to work anything
Give them a slide rule and a record player 8)
(or a vacuum cleaner - no child or teenager can work one 8))
Could you incorporate something like these?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2-x-Key-Ignition-Switch-ON-OFF-Lock-Switch-Key-OFF-Out-/260614227820?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Components_Supplies_ET&hash=item3cadd1876c (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2-x-Key-Ignition-Switch-ON-OFF-Lock-Switch-Key-OFF-Out-/260614227820?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Components_Supplies_ET&hash=item3cadd1876c)
cheers John.
:laughabovepost: I know of one twenty one year old living here at the Bealman abode who doesn't know how to operate a vacuum cleaner. :D
Quote from: scotsoft on June 17, 2013, 10:00:31 PM
Could you incorporate something like these?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2-x-Key-Ignition-Switch-ON-OFF-Lock-Switch-Key-OFF-Out-/260614227820?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Components_Supplies_ET&hash=item3cadd1876c (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2-x-Key-Ignition-Switch-ON-OFF-Lock-Switch-Key-OFF-Out-/260614227820?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Components_Supplies_ET&hash=item3cadd1876c)
cheers John.
Like the idea - would be a bit like being in charge of the activation keys for the launch of a missle strike :laugh:
Quote from: scotsoft on June 17, 2013, 10:00:31 PM
Could you incorporate something like these?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2-x-Key-Ignition-Switch-ON-OFF-Lock-Switch-Key-OFF-Out-/260614227820?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Components_Supplies_ET&hash=item3cadd1876c (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2-x-Key-Ignition-Switch-ON-OFF-Lock-Switch-Key-OFF-Out-/260614227820?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Components_Supplies_ET&hash=item3cadd1876c)
cheers John.
I had been thinking along those lines, but presumed someone would have encountered this problem already and there may even be a "commercially available" solution. My other thought was an interlock system based on microswitches on the points, together with either an "on track" train detector or an electronic detection that voltage was already being supplied to one track, that prevented the second track from being supplied (it seemed to be getting rather complex, though!)
There are various electronics boards for the job but mostly its a relay being controlled by a point controller at the same time as the signal or point. A lot of the fancier boards also allow you to chain them and they can do automatic train spacing for automated running.
Alan
Quote from: EtchedPixels on June 18, 2013, 12:08:27 PM
There are various electronics boards for the job but mostly its a relay being controlled by a point controller at the same time as the signal or point. A lot of the fancier boards also allow you to chain them and they can do automatic train spacing for automated running.
Alan
I suspected something like that would be around, but I can create that myself. Soon gets a bit complex for a plaything for two kids (or three if I include myself)
Yeah but therein lies the challenge and half the fun :thumbsup:
Quote from: Bealman on June 18, 2013, 10:57:25 PM
Yeah but therein lies the challenge and half the fun :thumbsup:
I keep telling the wife "it keeps me out of trouble and the pub" but she atill complains :hmmm:
:laughabovepost: Yeah, they do that. Same here in Australia too, mate. I just tinker on and go to the pub anyway. :thumbsup:
Quote from: newportnobby on June 17, 2013, 08:46:12 PM
Sorry, Chadders, but all I can think is to hide the switch somewhere only you know the location :-[
The problem has been solved by my grandson, Finlay. "If I am driving a train on one track and Toby (younger brother) is playing on the other, I don't want his trains on my track". So, no crossover needed between track. Besides the two oval tracks and sidings, he wants a lake and a river (to sail boats on), a picnic area, a town, factories, two stations, roads, a level crossing and a farm. I think I have worked in everything except the farm, which will have to be on a separate board to the side of the track (we don't want the trains frightening the animals!). I am trying to draw it up in Anyrail (another new experience for me) and will post a pic when it is "finished".
Quote from: oldchadders on June 26, 2013, 12:05:16 PM
The problem has been solved by my grandson, Finlay. "If I am driving a train on one track and Toby (younger brother) is playing on the other, I don't want his trains on my track".
A modern image franchise era modeller I see.
Alan
Quote from: oldchadders on June 26, 2013, 12:05:16 PM
Quote from: newportnobby on June 17, 2013, 08:46:12 PM
Sorry, Chadders, but all I can think is to hide the switch somewhere only you know the location :-[
The problem has been solved by my grandson, Finlay. "If I am driving a train on one track and Toby (younger brother) is playing on the other, I don't want his trains on my track". So, no crossover needed between track. Besides the two oval tracks and sidings, he wants a lake and a river (to sail boats on), a picnic area, a town, factories, two stations, roads, a level crossing and a farm. I think I have worked in everything except the farm, which will have to be on a separate board to the side of the track (we don't want the trains frightening the animals!). I am trying to draw it up in Anyrail (another new experience for me) and will post a pic when it is "finished".
Are you sure you can't fit an N gauge kitchen sink in there somewhere? :-X
The problem has been solved by my grandson, Finlay. "If I am driving a train on one track and Toby (younger brother) is playing on the other, I don't want his trains on my track". So, no crossover needed between track. Besides the two oval tracks and sidings, he wants a lake and a river (to sail boats on), a picnic area, a town, factories, two stations, roads, a level crossing and a farm. I think I have worked in everything except the farm, which will have to be on a separate board to the side of the track (we don't want the trains frightening the animals!). I am trying to draw it up in Anyrail (another new experience for me) and will post a pic when it is "finished".
QuoteAre you sure you can't fit an N gauge kitchen sink in there somewhere? :-X
No doubt there will be at least one house to include one!
If I have done things correctly, this is a link to my basic proposal
http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/MGalleryItem.php?id=5708 (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/MGalleryItem.php?id=5708)
I am expecting a little adjustment when it becomes reality. The detail of included buildings, roads, etc, will be decided by my grandson, once the track is laid - and probably changed regularly!
Don't forget the all important level crossing so he can stage car crashes
Quote from: EtchedPixels on June 26, 2013, 09:12:49 PM
Don't forget the all important level crossing so he can stage car crashes
That is on the list for "in situ mods". I have told Finlay he can design the town, industrial park and roadways once the track is laid.
The Blue line has a lot more going for it, what with shutting yard with turntable. I can see a falling out as to who gets which line, unless Granddad is good at playing the roll of the Minister for Railway Affairs? ;D .
I've just noticed that the Red track has 5.7% inclines! Unless anyone else knows different, those inclines could be killers for your locos.
Are you sure you can't fit an N gauge kitchen sink in there somewhere? :-X
The Beal and Castle Eden already has one! Not the best photo, but spot the kitchen sink....
[smg id=5720 type=preview align=center width=400]
By the way, the link to the trackplan is only drawing a blank on my computer. It seems Jack9465 saw it ok.... anyone else having probs?
Quote from: Jack9465 on June 26, 2013, 09:57:49 PM
The Blue line has a lot more going for it, what with shutting yard with turntable. I can see a falling out as to who gets which line, unless Granddad is good at playing the roll of the Minister for Railway Affairs? ;D .
I've just noticed that the Red track has 5.7% inclines! Unless anyone else knows different, those inclines could be killers for your locos.
Thanks for the comment about the incline, I wasn't too sure what was acceptable. The maximum height for the bridge/viaduct was estimated on the high side, so in construction I shall be looking to reduce it a little.
My expectation is that in general the older grandson will be running the blue line with the younger one on the red line and road traffic. On the understanding that the older one teaches the younger about shunting etc. (A subtle ploy suggested by my ex-teacher wife!)
If it helps the minimum height from top of rail to bottom of the overpass/bridge is about 30mm.
Ideally you would need to look at inclines of 3% but probably no more than 4%. Even at 4% I understand some steamers will struggle.
To give you some idea, a Woodland Scenic 3% incline kit on roughly a R3 rising curve to cross a twin track at 35mm is nearly 1300mm. All my diesels have no problems pulling six Mk3 coach train up it, however the one steamer, a V2, struggles with three MK1's. (The steamer no longer goes on the track as it's not DCC).
Sorry to give you a potential head ache as you try to rework your track plan. :(
Quote from: Jack9465 on June 27, 2013, 11:44:24 AM
If it helps the minimum height from top of rail to bottom of the overpass/bridge is about 30mm.
Ideally you would need to look at inclines of 3% but probably no more than 4%. Even at 4% I understand some steamers will struggle.
To give you some idea, a Woodland Scenic 3% incline kit on roughly a R3 rising curve to cross a twin track at 35mm is nearly 1300mm. All my diesels have no problems pulling six Mk3 coach train up it, however the one steamer, a V2, struggles with three MK1's. (The steamer no longer goes on the track as it's not DCC).
Sorry to give you a potential head ache as you try to rework your track plan. :(
Thanks for the info, Jack.
I had allowed 35mm headroom in my calculations, however the plan is to use no more than 2 coaches behind a 2-6-0 loco on the inclined track. At the worse I will need to ease the bottom of the incline around the other curve, or change the profile of the lake and reposition the bridge further over on the board to extend the length of the incline. Even more drastically I could lose the crossover completely by keeping the red track completely on the outside, but my grandson wants a bridge on it!
How about extending the red line to go outside the blue and use a rail over road bridge, (top side of plan), so as to get to the industrial area, (a Farish Double Decker for the workers is 27mm high ;D ) . You could then put a level crossing on the blue line, in line with the rail over road bridge and still keep their fishing/boating lake.
Just a thought.
Other cheat - make one line dip and the other rise.
Please ignore my previous post. I can see the layout plan now (I hadn't given it enough time to load before I whinged). I am still a tad concerned that red grandson is going to get a bit bored, though - especially when he sees all the cool stuff blue grandson is up to?
Not having any grandchildren (yet), perhaps I'm out of line, but I think it would be nice if the young bloke could at least have one siding or a loop so he could have more than one loco on the layout at once?
Like Jack9465, just a thought.
Quote from: Bealman on June 28, 2013, 12:17:56 AM
Please ignore my previous post. I can see the layout plan now (I hadn't given it enough time to load before I whinged). I am still a tad concerned that red grandson is going to get a bit bored, though - especially when he sees all the cool stuff blue grandson is up to?
Not having any grandchildren (yet), perhaps I'm out of line, but I think it would be nice if the young bloke could at least have one siding or a loop so he could have more than one loco on the layout at once?
Like Jack9465, just a thought.
There is a lot of background to this project, which is largely irrelevant to this forum. Younger grandson, Toby, is too young to play with this yet on his own. Older grandson, Finlay is only 5 y/o. He has developed an interest in model steam engines, which I have been restoring & rebuilding, which has led to a project this summer to build a small O gauge live steam layout in our garden. We want to keep Toby away from the steam and fire associated with this and thought the n-gauge layout would keep him occupied with some parental assistance, but still involve trains (and would be a secondary pastime for all of us on wet days). I have a longer-term idea to build a OO gauge layout in the garage, incorporating "bells and whistles". Thus, the n-gauge project can be "toned down" plus the wife keeps moaning about the cost of the pile of bits which I have accumulated! Thus the simplicity of parts of the layout do not worry mr unduly, as much of the time I foresee only one grandson playing on it at a time, although whenever possible, allowances are being built in.
Ah all becomes clear. ;D Its a case of "If play nicely with the little trains and as you get bigger you can play with the bigger trains". Nice touch. :thumbsup:
Quote from: Jack9465 on June 28, 2013, 10:51:33 AM
Ah all becomes clear. ;D Its a case of "If play nicely with the little trains and as you get bigger you can play with the bigger trains". Nice touch. :thumbsup:
That's about it. The 5 y/o is a bit young, really, but he has had stern warnings about "health and safety" and even told his Mom "if you come in Grandad's shed, you must ask before touching anything". We had been using an optical tacho to measure the speed of the flywheel on a steam engine, after which he gave his dad a lecture about not looking at laser beams. He is very keen to add detailing to this n-gauge layout, thus the various areas which are on the plan. I think most of the buildings will be left loose and re-arranged every time it is fetched out.
As Jack9465 says, all becomes clear. Well answered! :thumbsup: