Our old boiler (I mean the gas combie boiler not the wife) has reached retiement age+ and we feel that the Blitish Gas offer the best options at the momment.
Friday asurveyorr came and went through all the ins and outs and was able to give us a reasonable quote for replacing boiler, piping and all the other odds and sods.
The problem arose when he checked our electrics.We knew what he was going tdiscoverer as others had found it in the past when doing electrics for us.
This time we`ve been informed by BG that they wont even think about doing any work till its sorted out.
The problem that shows every time our systems checked is the the voltage is so low that normal safety meters will not read it In fact 225v Right the way back to the elecric meter outside.
Any ideas of the reasons for this the Electric board supply wiring to the meter is overhead and was installed way back in about 1979. Its a long run to it with a supporting pole half way along Lenght from the main 'grid' wire through the village.
Southern Electric have been asked to investigte
Breakdown in the insulation resulting in leakage to earth? Used to happen with old o/h telephone wires but much more obvious when there's a humming noise on the line ;)
Paul
Quote from: Sprintex on June 17, 2013, 02:42:14 PM
Breakdown in the insulation resulting in leakage to earth? Used to happen with old o/h telephone wires but much more obvious when there's a humming noise on the line ;)
Paul
Maybe but a visual inspection has been carried out on the earthing rod etc. Thanks anyway I will explore
Have you tried an independent gas fitter? Obviously the electric problems will still need solved, but when my parents investigated the options the independant fella said he would suggest a boiler of equivalent spec to the Scottish Gas offer which was cheaper even when the Scottish Gas discount was taken into account. Then he told them their current boiler was fine and they should keep running it until it conked out...
Quote from: jonclox on June 17, 2013, 02:35:54 PM
that normal safety meters will not read it In fact 225v Right the way back to the elecric meter outside.
In which case it's almost certainly the electricity boards problem, and also (once they decide its their fault) ask them if your meter will have overcharged you as a result and if it has for a large refund for the period since 1979 8)
A good seven or eight years ago I had a new electric meter fitted in my house.The chaps that fitted it were here for about an hour.I had no problems with low voltages or anything before nor did I after it was fitted.
Now I have no real knowledge of electrics from the grid or supply but it is my understanding that the power supply is rated higher than that that the house runs off.I understand this to be around 400volts then when it is connected to the meter,the meter restricts the supply or steps it down to 240 volts.I may be wrong on this but when you see the thickness of the cable that goes to the meter,its significantly thicker than the main cable from the meter to the fusebox/main consumer unit.
Like I say,I don't know a lot about the supply from the grid but its the first time I have ever heard of anything like this occuring.As it stands,if you are only getting 225volts throughout you're house,I'd expect some appliances you own would be affected by the lower voltage even though its not by much.
I would suggest not going with British Gas for you're replacement boiler because as they have pointed out the lower voltage problem,it may mean that more work and expense is forthcoming.If an independant heating engineer will fit one and the one you have,although old functions properly,then theres no reason to assume a new one won't work equally well.British Gas are just covering all the bases so that should a problem arise,they can wring their hands of any responsibility.Its what they do and why they cost so much than an independant heating engineer.In some cases,even though you may have been quoted for,lets say a Worcester boiler,one from an undependant might be quoted less money and because British Gas have a supply contract with some boiler manufacturers,often they are made to a slightly different spec.
Pete
:Class31: :Class37: :NGaugersRule:
On the voltage your fitter would appear to be talking rubbish, at least according to Wikipedia (though it confirms in general terms what I've heard elsewhere). This says that UK voltage is 230V with a tolerance of +10% and -6% so 225V falls within the permitted range. This probably means the electricity supplier will say there's nothing wrong, so if BG can't fit a boiler that works off an acceptable mains voltage then it's time to find someone else who will.
The 400 volts mentioned by Pete Mc probably refers to the three phase supply. It's nominally 414V if I recall correctly, each house is connected to only one phase and (for reasons I won't go into here) there is 240V between each phase and the neutral.
We had our (30 year old) boiler replaced two years ago. we got three quotes - one from British Gas, and two from independent suppliers - one a moderate-sized local firm, the other a 'one man band'. British Gas wanted to charge three times the cheapest (the local firm), and wanted to do all sorts of rubbish - like running a new supply pipe to the boiler up the outside of the house because 'yours isn't up to current specs', and wanted to replace all sorts of other stuff as well, for additional cost. The local firm and the sole trader both assured us that all the pipework was up to current specs, that there was no need to run a fresh pipe - and certainly not up the side of the house where it could easily get damaged, etc.
Other friends have had similar experiences, and all have gone for local firms over BG - and been perfectly satisfied. The new boiler is great - I reckon, two year on, that it uses about 2/3 the amount of gas the old one did, and heats water and house quicker too!
And yes, with my physicist's hat on, 225V is perfectly normal for mains supply in this country, and your supplier, when they investigate, will probably say so. The voltage (RMS) should be between 216 and 253 (i.e. 230V -6% or +10%). Sounds like British Gas 'up to something' to me.
The supply, before it gets to your house is 'three-phase', nominally 415V. That means there are five wires - the 'reference' phase, and then two others which are 120º and 240º 'out of phase' with the reference, plus neutral and earth wires.
House wiring is single phase, so your supply just uses one of the three. The housing estate I live on is quite interesting - it's clear that different areas of it are wired to different phases*. Sometimes we have power outages which only affect small areas within the estate - it seems that sometimes one phase 'drops out' whilst the other two keep going!
*This will be deliberate, so as to load each equally - it also ensures that, on average, the neutral wire is at approximately 0V.
The Wikipedia page on all this stuff is better than average for a Wikipedia page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-phase_electric_power (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-phase_electric_power)
Hi Guys,
Domestic Uk voltages are 230 Volts RMS +10% -6%. 216 volts to 253 volts.
(Not 400v which is three phase - all 3 phases are out there on the pole but you only get one - and thats quite sufficient)
http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/+/http://www.berr.gov.uk/energy/reliability/quality-continuity-supply/index.html (http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/+/http://www.berr.gov.uk/energy/reliability/quality-continuity-supply/index.html)
Wonder what they are using that wont read 225V? Bin it and get a decent tester! (before they get fried!)
Alan, the meter takes the voltage into account...
http://science.howstuffworks.com/electric-meter-info.htm (http://science.howstuffworks.com/electric-meter-info.htm)
Regards
Russ
Like someone else said on here don't use British Gas. They fitted a new boiler in my house after condemming my old boiler which they had been maintaing for over three years. Then did a shoddy installation job, they did not rebrick the inside wall when replacing the flue,they filled the gap with polystyrene. They eventually gave me £50 compensation after a builder came and made it right.I'm still annoyed by them and its over three years ago,can you tell ????????
Quote from: edwin_m on June 17, 2013, 04:23:13 PM
On the voltage your fitter would appear to be talking rubbish, at least according to Wikipedia (though it confirms in general terms what I've heard elsewhere). This says that UK voltage is 230V with a tolerance of +10% and -6% so 225V falls within the permitted range. This probably means the electricity supplier will say there's nothing wrong, so if BG can't fit a boiler that works off an acceptable mains voltage then it's time to find someone else who will.
I second this information. The UK tolerance is indeed as stated so you are definitely getting enough voltage at 225 V. British Gas need to do their homework or send a sparky who knows what he is talking about!
Throw this information back to them and lets see what nonsense they reply with?
Good luck in getting it sorted Jon :thumbsup:
Just to confirm what others have said really and to add a little more. When I did my apprenticeship as an electrician the supply voltage in the UK was 240V. It is a very common misconception that this is still the case. However, Europe were all using 220V so it was agreed to meet halfway and use 230V. The tolerances which others have quoted are indeed correct with +10% and -6%. This is to allow for various factors like the length of cable run to the house from the sub-station, overhead/underground cabling, type of cable (lead sheath/aluminium sheath/SWA) etc which all affect voltage drop. It may be that what they mean is there is a more than normal voltage drop between your consumer unit and the fused spur for the boiler. If this is the case then the wiring is probably too small. This would be very rare though as usually you will have a dedicated supply to the boiler wired in 2.5mm with a 16A MCB to protect it. What are these "normal safety meters" you mention?
As I understand it the voltage in the UK often is still 240V, it is just that the tolerance on the voltage was increased so that both 220V and 240V (and the normal variations from these voltages) would all be within the permitted range. Hence mains appliances sold across Europe have to work on any voltage within this range. This means that applicances can be cheaper because the supplier is making the same product for a larger market, and electrical equipment can also be used safely in other countries.
I don't even see that a single voltage measurement tells anyone anything very useful. The grid voltage will fluctuate a bit as load changes, and the amount of voltage drop in the conductors to and within a particular house will depend on the current being drawn, not only by the house in question but by others nearby that may share the same feed. So just because it is a particular value when measured it could be quite different a few days or even minutes later.
I quoted 225 volts but maybe the reasding is/was lower than that. I will investigate and see what happens. All this info is makingmy head spin but I am trying to take it all in.
We will explore other firms besides BGas and see what comes up.
Thanks so far everybody
Quote from: jonclox on June 18, 2013, 08:48:57 AM
I quoted 225 volts but maybe the reasding is/was lower than that. I will investigate and see what happens. All this info is makingmy head spin but I am trying to take it all in.
We will explore other firms besides BGas and see what comes up.
Thanks so far everybody
Hi Jon,
A good way to check is to test the voltage at the socket nearest to your consumer unit (fuse box), then test the voltage at the socket furthest away from the fuse box. (this could be an upstairs bedroom perhaps)
Compare the two results, your voltage at the closest point should always be higher. Remember to only do this if you feel safe in doing so!, if not call an electrician.
Thanks to everybody.
British Gas sent out an electition this afternoon to investigate the problem.
The earth wire is connected to a earthspike by a wrap round and clamp the nut down on the top of it. The earthspike is 'tatty' and although the wire vanishes into our roof it never arives at the RCD unit.
Its been like that for 13 years when we had the house rewired during extention work.
We never did trust the electrical workmanship of the builders guy.
Builder now lives in Spain etc. :veryangry: :veryangry:
Just to confuse you a little more, you may not need that "earthspike" anyway. It depends on the type of earthing used in the installation and in particular how the electricity board supplies your power. I won't go into detail but the most common types of earthing systems are TN-S, TN-CS and TT. The latter is the only one which usually requires an earth rod. The other 2 will depend on the type of installation and in particular if you have separately fed outhouses etc.
Quite simply you're better off letting the electrician work out the type of earthing required which he can do by examining the supply coming into the house.