N Gauge Forum

This is a topic that appears to come round reasonably regularly and raised its head on the Farish 2013/14 thread.

There seems to be a reluctance or nervousness among some members to try their hands at building kits, weathering, re-paints or scratch build.

Oft-stated reasons are fear of ruining an expensive model or not having the dexterity to build a kit, but that is not really my point in posting this. 

No one should expect modelling skills to just appear - we all have to practice and learn.  Even with practice we will all be better at some things than others, but there is a great satisfaction in viewing one's own work.

Many of the NGS kits are designed to be easy to put together and could be put together by anyone who could make an Airfix kit.  If the etched details are too fragile - leave them off!

Re-painting and weathering can be practiced very cheaply on spare loco or coach bodies.  There is a wealth of information out there on painting and weathering.  The best tip I can give is find a photo of the loco you wish to weather and try to copy the weathering you see in the picture.

What I really want to know is how can we all help and encourage you to take the next step in modelling?

Cheers, Mike

Well said Mike, a very good post full of encouragement.

I have made a few attempts at weathering and the results were absolute rubbish but as I used weathering powders I am able to wash off the rubbish ready for the next attempt with hopefully less rubbish  :D

cheers John.

Quote from: red_death on March 12, 2013, 10:48:06 AM
Re-painting and weathering can be practiced very cheaply on spare loco or coach bodies.  There is a wealth of information out there on painting and weathering.  The best tip I can give is find a photo of the loco you wish to weather and try to copy the weathering you see in the picture.

Well said, and practice makes perfect. The cheaper the better, for beginners, at least. Though in the other scale, I've found that after reintroducing myself to the hobby, doing a few Airfix kits was good practice. In particular, the kits which come with a paintbrush and some acrylics. Painting most of the parts before assembly has helped to fine-tune my brush hand, once again. Of course, there's also the decals which need to be fixed, which is another skill, also obtained at the same time.

As I was without any tools to begin with, this was a very good way to start, once again, I feel. The only extras which I've had to go looking for, were a craft knife, for sprue cutting, a cheap set of needle files, and some cocktail sticks, to use for stirring paint.

:thumbsup:

I've found the Peco wagon kits a really easy introduction to painting my own... I had quite a few that I made up when I was young but never dared to paint - a few quid on some Tamiya acrylics and an old fine brush and I'm really pleased with the results. I've now got some mucky coloured pastels to dust on and varnish to practice a bit of weathering... nothing to be afraid of really but as for spare coach bodies and the like, I don't have the luxury of a huge spares box...

One day I might get around to posting some pictures of my rather amateur work :) I also like making up liveries for Peco wagons - I have a brake van to a livery specced by my wife in green and cream with a lovely red stripe... just an excuse to practice doing strips with masking tape really - although useful to remember my grandfather teaching me how to paint the horizon on a landscape - you have multiple times to get it right - coming down from the sky, coming up from the landscape, first coat, second coat, etc - so don't worry if you get it wrong first time around!

On a slightly related note, I'm a cheapskate, and not at all particular about accuracy to prototype - so for me kits should be a way of cheaply building up rolling stock... but have yet to find a source of "10 random wagons that are really cheap," even from the NGS. Any ideas?

G

I thnk the Peco kits are as cheap as it gets without going to Peco chassis and make your own card bodies - which can be fun in itself for wagons.

Alan

Quote from: EtchedPixels on March 12, 2013, 12:30:24 PM
I thnk the Peco kits are as cheap as it gets without going to Peco chassis and make your own card bodies - which can be fun in itself for wagons.

Alan

Funnily enough card bodies on Peco chassis (what's the plural?) was where I was thinking of going next - I can print stuff at work easily enough so could even do lettering and lining easily to stick on, cutting out gaps where appropriate. Any suggestions for shaping a wagon/small carraige roof from card? Stick to loo roll sections or use formers inside?

Now... where's the best source for the Peco chassis in bulk? NGS?

Quote from: Gnep on March 12, 2013, 12:26:33 PM

On a slightly related note, I'm a cheapskate, and not at all particular about accuracy to prototype - so for me kits should be a way of cheaply building up rolling stock... but have yet to find a source of "10 random wagons that are really cheap," even from the NGS. Any ideas?

Just buy a selelction of old, worn and damaged wagons from the rummage boxes that many second-hand traders have at exhibitions. Then put the undamaged bodies on undamagesd chassis, add details, change the wheels for decent ones, strip off the old paint and re-paint. Plenty of practice and fun to be had.

Also the NGS wagon kits are cheaper to buy in bulk at say ten at a time. And the manufacturers often sell off end of line or damaged stock at knock down prices - for example Dapol do NQP stuff very cheaply and are now doing unpainted wagons.

H.

I find it very discouraging when articles in magazines assume you have an airbrush.  In order to use an airbrush you also need a compressor, spray booth, fume extraction, masks both for the model and for your face*, and enough space to store and use them.  All this sounds like a lot of cost and hassle not to mention the potential for it to go wrong if you get the wrong mix, forget to clean it, etc etc.  If that is what you need to paint something then thanks all the same, I'll leave it the colour it is. 

I'd be interested in techniques, examples and general encouragement for painting and weathering using a traditional hairy brush (or any other technique that doesn't involve a lot of equipment and hazards).  There seems to be a painting and weathering project in nearly every magazine but I only recall one that was explicitly aimed at non-users of airbrushes.  From the few things I've tried, it's possible to get a reasonable finish at the small size of N gauge and using a decent paint such as Vallejo acrylics. 

*some of these may not actually be necessary but the implication from some quarters seems to be that you need them all.

You can pick up spares pretty cheap at exhibitions (or even through the dreaded E*ay!). As H says s/h stalls can often be a really useful source of practice material or even useful bits and pieces.

Cheers, Mike

Quote from: edwin_m on March 12, 2013, 01:32:17 PM
I find it very discouraging when articles in magazines assume you have an airbrush.  In order to use an airbrush you also need a compressor, spray booth, fume extraction, masks both for the model and for your face*, and enough space to store and use them.  All this sounds like a lot of cost and hassle not to mention the potential for it to go wrong if you get the wrong mix, forget to clean it, etc etc.  If that is what you need to paint something then thanks all the same, I'll leave it the colour it is. 

I'd be interested in techniques, examples and general encouragement for painting and weathering using a traditional hairy brush (or any other technique that doesn't involve a lot of equipment and hazards).  There seems to be a painting and weathering project in nearly every magazine but I only recall one that was explicitly aimed at non-users of airbrushes.  From the few things I've tried, it's possible to get a reasonable finish at the small size of N gauge and using a decent paint such as Vallejo acrylics. 

On the spray painting thing - try aerosols, particularly non-railway sources (Halfords and Games Workshop are my favourite sources).  But you still need good ventilation as an absolute minimum and a face mask.  Fine particles + solvents aren't fun.

Save up batches of models that can be painted at once to reduce the hassle.

You are right with a decent brush you can get a reasonable finish.

If masking is a problem - look for simpler liveries to start with or tricks that save masking eg using Fox transfers for NSE stripes rather than painting them all.

As with anything cost/hassle vs quality of finish is a personal value judgement we all have to make.

Cheers, Mike

Quote from: edwin_m on March 12, 2013, 01:32:17 PM

From the few things I've tried, it's possible to get a reasonable finish at the small size of N gauge and using a decent paint such as Vallejo acrylics. 

I've seen a few articles and tips about using brushes to get a decent finish.

I'd also suggest trying aerosol paints, particularly the Halfords car colours which give a good finish and many of which can be used to replicate railway colours.

Plus recently there have been a number of high quality airbrush packages (such as the Neo procuded by Iwata) produced for very reasonable and comparatively cheap prices these days.

H.

Last time I checked the cheapest was one of the model shops - but it varies and they are cheap enough the postage and number wanted is a big impact.

I've done various card and paper wagons for fun (and mostly as joke items for special events).

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/79/entry-8225-christmas-time-christmas-coach/ (http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/79/entry-8225-christmas-time-christmas-coach/)

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/79/entry-6552-freebie-paper-gunpowder-van-for-tomorrow/ (http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/79/entry-6552-freebie-paper-gunpowder-van-for-tomorrow/)

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/79/entry-6440-making-the-freebie-easier-to-build/ (http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/79/entry-6440-making-the-freebie-easier-to-build/)

feel free to grab them and experiment - if nothing else it'll give you some of the sizes to work from.

I've not found you need anything beyond decent strength (eg photo paper)  materials for the small wagons.

It's also not too hard to make your own chassis out of plasticard, however once you've made your first axlebox and springs you may find that the thought of making four of them per wagon fills you with the urge to go to the pub instead  :D (or learn 3D printing, or to make your own cast copies). Does mean you can make them any length and wheelbase you want.

Bogie vehicles are also not too hard - a length of angled material for the floor or a flat piece of plasticard and rods glued along it for strength does the trick. The main thing is making it a rigid structure that won't warp. Lots of bogies available off the shelf which deals with all the couplings and other problems.

Roofs - oh yes (oh pain) but lots of different approaches

Method 1.

Wrap thin plasticard around a tin or bit of thin metal tube or similar a little bit smaller dimension that needed. Fasten plasticard firmly all the way along with something - eg lots of strong tape

Place the entire lot in a bowl, and pour on boiling water - it must be just coming off the boil and no colder

Wait, remove and it'll have taken on the profile you wanted and try to keep it


Method 2.

Put layers of paper over a former and glue them to each other with PVA or similar, taking care not to weld it to the former. Each layer is weak but once glued together the layers can't move against one another so the end result is quite strong.

Method 3.

Bit of thin metal and roll it to shape - harder to get the hang of initially but IMHO by far the easiest once you've mastered it. Real misers do it using old drink cans, but then spend more on taxis to A&E to be stitched back up 8)

Method 4.

If you are the woodworking type then several people make their roofs from wood cut to the profile.

Method 5.

Grab lots of things like old pepsi bottles and cut slices from those about the right arc.


and there are other methods too.

Equally axleboxes/springs, roof profiles and the like can be bought quite cheaply. Peco also sell four packs of their couplers/pockets which can be handy for scratchbuilding.

Alan

Thanks Alan - as ever fantastic advice... I might just give all or some of those methods a go :D

Quote from: edwin_m on March 12, 2013, 01:32:17 PM

I'd be interested in techniques, examples and general encouragement for painting and weathering using a traditional hairy brush (or any other technique that doesn't involve a lot of equipment and hazards). 

Apparently there's an article in the Spring #181 issue of 'Model Rail'.

Whether it specifically covers N/2mm I don't know, but there doesn't appear to be any other mention of N/2mm for the contents - it's getting very thin on N gauge these days despite Lawrences contact with the editor.

H.

The whole idea behind my Electra conversions is to enable anyone to produce their own model, regardless of skill.

Like a lot of folk here, I grew up building Airfix kits, so a typical NGS wagon holds no fears but I've hardly touched anything brass and never soldered a kit in my life.

Darren Johnson's recent build of a 4-VEP using my vinyls and a host of other 3rd party add-ons just shows how far you can go to create the ultimate model.

Quote from: captainelectra on March 14, 2013, 08:30:34 AMThe whole idea behind my Electra conversions is to enable anyone to produce their own model, regardless of skill

Even some basic level of skill is required
I therefore tested this technique on two types of Farish coaches
I found the older Poole type was really easy, the newer China was a nightmare (so much so I threw the coach away)
I have never been happy with the finish when painting small areas / fine detail
However, this too I have refined (now using a permanent black marker instead of paint as suggested)
Even applying the vinyls themselves takes patience (one final skill)

I am currently applying DBSO vinyls to Mark 2 coaches, and these are probably the most challenging as some modification is required to complete these (as I learned from the first one that I completed)

I have also heard that some people can't do vinyls as they don't have the dexterity to do this, and having seen their results I have to agree...

Well said Charlie and I hope your post will give others the extra bit of confidence to give some of these a try  :thumbsup:

cheers John.

Quote from: Fratton on March 14, 2013, 12:41:50 PM

Like anything its all practice, i had touched a brass kit 2 years ago, and the only thing i'd used a soldering iron was to make balls of solder at school!

now i make these without any second thought

and soldering even micro jobs like this don't seem terrifying

2 years ago i was afraid to even use vinals now i've made an entire unit with water slide transfers

i had never used an airbrush before Christmas just gone and now i'm custom painting stock

Obviously there are folks out there who (and please for give me for terming it this way) are getting old or suffer diminished dexterity be it an ailment or RSI (i myself have diminished movement in my left thumb after being stabbed in the hand)  it doesn't have to be relevant or even N Gauge and you dont have to start with stock, just dip your toe and build up speed until your fears suddenly are gone,,,

and remember theres always someone on  :NGaugeForum: that can walk you through it,

Looks like you've done very well, very quickly. Well done. It's a great example.

It is a matter of practice to improve but often the problem for many is geting started - or rather the fear of it.

Once that is overcome the sky is the limit. And yep, even some disabilities don't need to be a drawback. I've got both osteo-arthritis and rheumatoid- arthritis (a particularly nasty type that attacks the small joints and makes gripping things difficult and painful) but tools and equipment help massively. Also recently with things wrong with my eyes (myopia, ocular hyper-tension and astigmatism and potential for diabetic retinopathy and onset glaucoma) the small scale is still not a problem and there's no need to trade up to O gauge.

It's a matter of taking the first steps. If other can and have, I'm sure all forum members have the ability to do the same and become great modellers.

H.

 i enjoy building kits omwb at the moment is a rake of benard's PTA /JUA open boxs wagons .what have found is that models i require for my layout i either have to scratch build or buy farish  and dapol rtr items as the choice for what i want is very limited more so with the demise of Ian's great range of kits. also i would love to have a go at 3D printing but my skills in this area are very limited to none at all .
daz

Quote from: mjkerr on March 14, 2013, 08:40:43 AM

I have also heard that some people can't do vinyls as they don't have the dexterity to do this, and having seen their results I have to agree...

Hmmm, I've also heard that, but I'm not so sure that it is due to a lack of dexterity, perhaps more an excuse. If you can shave yourself in the morning, do up and undo fly buttons, and use a knife and fork to eat meals, then you've got sufficent dexterity. It's then just a matter of technique, and that comes with practice and patience.

H. 

Quote from: darren.c on March 14, 2013, 01:54:04 PM

i enjoy building kits omwb at the moment is a rake of benard's PTA /JUA open boxs wagons .

Those TPM PTA/JUAs are great kits.

(http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/2038/1000972l.jpg)

I've got another five half built OMWB.

H.

I love kit building, not done much scratchbuilding railway wise but military modelling I have done a bit. It does take time to learn and practise but once you get there you wont regret the satisfaction looking at your own work and thinking that you did it and achieved the result you have.

I also wonder if cost comes into play, after all we all have to work to a budget, some more than others, so even a few pounds spent on a kit then having to build it, knowing it could end up in the bin, may well put some people off trying.

cheers John.

Charlie - some fantastic work there!

The dexterity / small size of details etc point is something else that regularly crops up, particularly when people say N is too small for them.  For me it isn't really a correct point as the physical size of the smallest piece will be the same regardless of the scale it is just that you are adding more details in O that would be impossible in N.

Quote from: darren.c on March 14, 2013, 01:54:04 PM
also i would love to have a go at 3D printing but my skills in this area are very limited to none at all .

Daz - there is a fair few of us doing 3D design on here and there are some good hints and tips on some of the older posts.  DEMU will be producing a fact sheet (hopefully by Ally Pally ie next 10 days) on getting started with 3D printing, plus our mag 'Update' has had a couple of articles in recently about 3D printing.  The crucial thing is to find a software package that you get on with ie if you are used to Autocad then stick with Autocad's 3D capabilities, if you've never done any CAD then you might find Sketchup or Blender a better starting point. If you like writing code (take a bow Mr Etched Pixels!) try OpenSCAD.

Cheers, Mike

Quote from: scotsoft on March 14, 2013, 03:18:10 PM

I also wonder if cost comes into play, after all we all have to work to a budget, some more than others, so even a few pounds spent on a kit then having to build it, knowing it could end up in the bin, may well put some people off trying.

Although we all need to watch the pennies there are a few points on that that shoud help stop putting people off.

1) When it comes to practicing painting there is no need to throw away a model if the result is not acceptable - simply strip the paint and start again. And practice on cheap, old or even free ones.  Plus of course they can be re-used for no further extra cost.

2) Don't start with practicing assembling expensive kits - try cheap or even free ones; for example you can download free samples of Scalescenes kits.

3) It is possible to save in kits by looking around. I gave a few examples earlier -

buy a selelction of old, worn and damaged wagons from the rummage boxes that many second-hand traders have at exhibitions. Then put the undamaged bodies on undamagesd chassis, add details, change the wheels for decent ones, strip off the old paint and re-paint. Plenty of practice and fun to be had. Also the NGS wagon kits are cheaper to buy in bulk at say ten at a time. And the manufacturers often sell off end of line or damaged stock at knock down prices - for example Dapol do NQP stuff very cheaply and are now doing unpainted wagons

- and no doubt other ideas and suggestions can be made.

4) Don't look at the cost of a kit (that isn't built well and can't be dissassembled and remade) as a waste. Time would have been invested in it and, therefore, it will have had some value in the practice and enjoyment that will have been derived from it. All hobbies cost money and/or time but the cost of practice is an investment worth making.

5) Finally, read this book -  http://www.transportstore.com/images/content/books/large/2097/P3280808.jpg (http://www.transportstore.com/images/content/books/large/2097/P3280808.jpg)
and to save money borrow it from a library.

H.

Quote from: H on March 14, 2013, 02:01:13 PM
If you can do up and undo fly buttons, and use a knife and fork to eat meals, then you've got sufficent dexterity.

H.

Do people really do this :o
I use zips and am not allowed sharp implements so a spoon has to suffice :-[ :D

Quote from: newportnobby on March 14, 2013, 03:57:09 PM

Do people really do this :o
I use zips and am not allowed sharp implements so a spoon has to suffice :-[ :D

Obviously it sounds like you have a carer who shovels food in your mouth and wipes your b*m, so you could ask them to build your kits  :D

H.

Quote from: red_death on March 12, 2013, 10:48:06 AM
What I really want to know is how can we all help and encourage you to take the next step in modelling?

Hi

I have no issues with building, painting, transfers, etc but I do have a problem with weathering as I am colour blind. Any ideas how to get around that?

Cheers

Paul

Quote from: H on March 14, 2013, 03:38:41 PM

1) When it comes to practicing painting there is no need to throw away a model if the result is not acceptable - simply strip the paint and start again. And practice on cheap, old or even free ones.  Plus of course they can be re-used for no further extra cost.

i do this with plane models i get for Christmas/birthday (i had a tornado with a cantrail on a wing the other day) and my current project has been stripped back twice now as i was unhappy,,,,,,

I personally have done some weathering and i'm reasonably happy with the results the problem seems to be folks are to critical of there own work and i find always less is more do a little and walk away look again in an hour or two then repeat.

I started when i was young with plastic kits my dad showed me how but i can never paint to his standard he brush paints tiny lozenge camo on very tiny wings and it looks sprayed maybe on day i can get half as good.


Dave