Dapol announce Mk3 Sleepers?

[LowerQuadrant]

Still can't decide whether to get a rake of these. Without the appropriate Farish mk2s to match them.

Imo, providing Mk2s would be a no-brainer if the Mk3 sleepers should sell well. Probably anybody would buy them to complete the train. The same goes for GWR/FGW day stock.

I will get myself a GWR-rake and hope for the best.

[Adam1701D]

Still can't decide whether to get a rake of these. Without the appropriate Farish mk2s to match them.

Imo, providing Mk2s would be a no-brainer if the Mk3 sleepers should sell well. Probably anybody would buy them to complete the train. The same goes for GWR/FGW day stock.

I will get myself a GWR-rake and hope for the best.

I can help with the day coaches for Scotrail and GWR sets. GWR uses Mk3 TSO, RDM and BFO on their overnight sets, so you could get away with 2 HST TSOs and a RFM RTR with a bit of renumbering.

[njee20]

I've already got a full set of vinyled Farish coaches - the problem for me is that whilst they work well in isolation, I'm not a fan of mixing and matched vinyled and painted, as it looks a bit odd.

I'm not sure it is a no-brainer, it would mean Farish tooling a couple of variants uniquely for the sleeper. KMS hinted at trying to get them done, but given the price of the standard mk2s I shudder to think at how much a limited run tooling would be.

[red_death]

The difficulty of the Mk2s is that they are non-standard and a relatively small number of coaches so a lot of tooling if you want them to be correct. Isn't the Farish 2f BSO useful for some of the sleepers? The RLOs were converted from FOs?

Cheers Mike

[njee20]

I think one could achieve it by filling in windows on available coaches, which is immeasurably easier than trying to add windows.

I have got the makings of a CAD to test the viability, using the under frame/bogies etc from old Farish ones, but I decided it was too much effort!

[LowerQuadrant]

The difficulty of the Mk2s is that they are non-standard and a relatively small number of coaches so a lot of tooling if you want them to be correct.

You have a point there.

The Night Riviera day coaches should be less of a problem, as captainelectra pointed out earlier. I'll gladly accept some compromises (eg window alignment). Using HST stock would be a bit much to ask... give me a loco-hauled buffet and two TSOs with silver doors on both ends and I'll be happy. I hope Dapol are listening.

[AdrianC]

I have an old TPM inlay to do an RLO in IC Exec (add a donor coach for it), don't need the BFO as this didn't appear till sometime later, so can make do with a BG and a declassified FO or two for a West Highland style train.

[CaleyDave]

The difficulty of the Mk2s is that they are non-standard and a relatively small number of coaches so a lot of tooling if you want them to be correct. Isn’t the Farish 2f BSO useful for some of the sleepers? The RLOs were converted from FOs?

Cheers Mike

Correct, a BSO was used on the Fort William trains as cover for a shortage of BUO's towards the end.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/railwayscene/29054886548/
This was technically a 2E rather than F but as per the differences I list below its not something most people will notice.


An Intercity Liveried 2F BSO was also used for a time
https://flic.kr/p/22cQLfu

For the MK2E BSO 9497
Primarily just a repaint into Caledonian Sleeper and you are good to go.
If you wanted accuracy you would Backdate to a 2E by
-Adding Ventilation Cabinet,
-swap Air conditioning cooler
-Adding a water filler cap to the roof.
(Originally the 2E BSO had deeper door windows when built but from pictures it has gained the same doors as the 2F)

For the RLO its not a bad as we think
6700-4: start with a MK2F FO, repaint including painting over some of the windows behind the pantry (The frames are still present) and alter the interior.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/rossburns/27339678207/
6705-8: start with a MK2F RFO repaint and alter the interior.

For MK2E BUO 9800-10
Start with a TSO, Backdate it and start chopping it up.
Backdate the coach from an F to an E is: Add Ventilation Cabinet, swap Air conditioning cooler and if you Pick number 98007-10 you can avoid adding the roof water filler and Deeper door windows which are present on the earlier ones. (you would need to referrer to pictures as I suspect doors were changed to the later type as on the 2F).
No idea how you reliably make the guards door, Etches I guess.
I have played about with the idea of building a BUO on paper but its not for my faint heart to attempt.

I am secretly hopeful that the way the new Farish MK2F is constructed, and the fact we have seen odd balls like the DBSO and RFO, that Farish could expand the range. Now that the BUO is used in test trains maybe it stands a chance of selling more, especially if Farish Bring out the later versions of the DBSO.

Of course you could just buy a BSO and RFO off the shelf and not repaint them:
https://flic.kr/p/MoaUmf

---

The Night Rivera discussion is interesting.

The difficulty of the Mk2s is that they are non-standard and a relatively small number of coaches so a lot of tooling if you want them to be correct.

You have a point there.

The Night Riviera day coaches should be less of a problem, as captainelectra pointed out earlier. I'll gladly accept some compromises (eg window alignment). Using HST stock would be a bit much to ask... give me a loco-hauled buffet and two TSOs with silver doors on both ends and I'll be happy. I hope Dapol are listening.

Buffet (10217, 10219, 10225)
I don't think its unfair to say we will never see an accurate Buffet produced Ready to Run. The Dapol RFM is the wrong RFM, as the one used by GWR has large windows on the corridor side being an ex First Open coach (And that is before we get to the minefield that is toilet windows and roof vents).
https://flic.kr/p/2c7KsyH
https://flic.kr/p/24pait5
As much as I would like to see more MK3 variants produced it has to be way down the list but we are getting towards the minimal returns (I would love to see a 3 windowed buffet like the TRUB/TRFB RUB/RFB however whilst You could sell a TGS to everyone with a HST, a new buffet detracts from sales of your generic buffet going forward and there is no guarantee anyone will want to switch out a wrong buffet for a right one.)

TSO (12100, 12142, 12161)
Nice and easy, just a repaint. For accuracy it should be supplied with the same roof as the Prototype.

The BFO (think it is a BUO now) (17173 17174, 17175)
There were only ever 3 of these built, unless you know you already want one you probably didn't know it excised.
If we were to just repaint a RTR model I am not sure if the TGS or a First would be more appropriate.
The windows at the guards compartment are out of alignment with the normal mk3 windows.
TGS gives you the right door, the first windows are better.
I suspect the answer is first with some printing beside the door to make it look like it has the extra wide section. (Both would require some windows painted out)
https://www.flickr.com/photos/91374144@N03/28489764256/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/rob50037/24979189436/

I would show off my attempt at building one but after painting I realized things were less that square so its in the drawer or shame till I retry (A bad craftsman blames his tools but it was the lack of tools i had at the time rather than being difficult). I made it out of a TGS and FO so it is doable. Again I have confidence that, due to availability and price, someone could produce an accurate rake with some cutting and shutting to produce both the RFM and BFO coaches.

Edit:
On reviewing pictures I realised that both rfm and bfo have had windows changed in recent refurbishments.
Rfm- https://flic.kr/p/TMPoxS
Bfo- https://flic.kr/p/2dgMR9f

This appears to be within the last few years (could be as recently as 2019). Again show the perils of modeling a non standard fleet. My above comments still stand for  the older coaches.
However I think looking at the refurbished coaches
For a BFO repaint a TGS, blanking/painting off the old guards windows. (Bonus points for swapping interior with a FO.)
For a RFM a standard 8 window tso/fo may be a better starting point with the roof swapped out for a kitchen roof.
The seated coach, having being fitted with a disabled toilet is not much better with a small window replacing a big one. I fear I have walked into a minefield far larger than I thought it was.
https://flic.kr/p/2jnRxhE

Point being, a custom repaint or commission which captures the spirit of the set using coaches in Dapol's current range is possible. For those wanting more accuracy the models are cheep enough to allow people to have ago themselves.

[geoffc]

For Night Riviera stock a fudge would be to buy either the Dynamic Lines or GWR HST non sleeper coaches and change the chassis for loco hauled ones with buffers. Extra decals for the numbers and additional titles are available. I did the Dynamic Lines conversion several years ago and an article was published in the Dapol Collectors Club Magazine.

Geoff

[CaleyDave]

I have been searching for photos of the various seated coaches used on the two sleepers since Privatization.

None of these pictures I have linked too are my own. I hope they may be useful to someone.

I have ignore (for the time being) The Nationalized and Departmental Liveries announced so far.
These being:
BR Blue Grey - 2P-006-001
BR Swallow - 2P-006-002
Jarvis Departmental-  2P-006-004
Serco Departmental - 2P-006-008
DB Executive Train - Part of set 2D-017-100

Night Riviera

Originally used MK2's and quickly changed to MK3 as soon as they became available.

FGW 'Fag Packet'
2P-006-005

MK2 Day Coaches
all Mk2D BSO-TSO-RMBF-sleepers
https://www.flickr.com/photos/75892080@N06/21032306670/
I think my designation are correct, at the time there were a number of coaches allocated to Western.
Please do point me in the right direction if I am wrong as I didn't know about these prior to searching for pictures.

Mk3 Day Coaches
3A TSO-3B BFO-3 RFM-sleepers
https://www.flickr.com/photos/43077/3010545571/

FGW Dynamic Lines
2P-006-006

BFO-TSO-RFM-Sleepers
https://www.flickr.com/photos/pwakely/21166715650/

GWR Riviera Green
2P-006-003

BFO-TSO-RFM-Sleepers
https://www.flickr.com/photos/pwakely/50130426522/

I believe that the only sleeper livery missing which is not included in the proposed models is:
Great western "Merlin" livery
but these would have been mixed with INTERCITY and later 'Fag Packet' liveried day coaches.
I have struggled to find a picture of Merlin, however I did find this vide:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pN3yFV-qJq4

Caledonian Sleeper

First-Scotrail
2P-006-007

BUO-RLO-Sleepers
https://www.flickr.com/photos/37923727@N04/39636955882/

BUO-RLO-Sleepers (Visit Scotland Livery)
https://www.flickr.com/photos/smoggyrail/27767479935/

FIRST CALEDONIAN SLEEPER [various branding] (KMS exclusives)
First ScotRail (white Band) - 2P-006-KMS2
First ScotRail Gold/No Band - 2P-006-KMS3
Debranded - 2P-006-KMS4

Images of these coaches can be seen here:
http://www.scot-rail.co.uk/page/Caledonian+Sleepers

BUO-RLO-Sleepers
https://www.flickr.com/photos/159935008@N03/27336075708/
Most of these odd ball coaches were during the transition to the Standardized First Branding or at the end when it was being removed.
These odd-balls would run with normal sleepers.

Caledonian sleeper 'STAG' (KMS exclusives)
2P-006-KMS1

Not enough MK3's were repainted for a full train.

BUO-RLO-Sleepers Normal seated coaches
https://www.flickr.com/photos/153305438@N06/33180004018/

BSO-RLO-Sleepers (Caledonian Sleeper) Stand in Fort William Brake coach
https://www.flickr.com/photos/167172957@N08/47534797651/in/pool-3962087@N20/

BSO-RFO-Sleepers (Intercity) Stand in Mk2 due to shortages (Worked Fort William portion)
https://www.flickr.com/photos/167247484@N07/49221396851/in/pool-caledoniansleeper/

I think all Caledonian sleeper MK3 liveries are covered between Dapol and KMS.

[woodbury22uk]

@CaleyDave  It might be my imagination but I seem to recall at least one coach in a livery which was mainly metallic grey/silver with the large full body height Scotrail symbol (always looked like the CAIB logo to me) in silver white. I remember a model magazine claiming that it carried different liveries on each side though it looked to me like the photos were taken in a yard a few minutes apart and the light made the logo look darker than the main body colour on one side, and lighter on the other. This was a visual trick used in the French TER livery where the large TER letters appeared to change colour as the train passed.

I seem to recall the livery on the night coach was a Porterbrook one off.

[Steven B]

There are some actual Sleeper train formations from the early-mid 1980s listed on this site: http://www.britishrailways.net/rs/sleepers/westcoast.html

You'll need your Combined Volume handy as the trains are listed by vehicle numbers. Sleeper cars are highlighted in blue.

In general:
2xxx series numbers are Mk1 Sleepers
10500-10619 are Mk3 sleepers
Anything over 80xxx is a BG, except for 86xxx numbers which are GUV.
Numbers <2000 are Mk1 buffets/kitchen cars.
3xxx are typically Mk2 open firsts (<3170 being non-aircon)
5xxx-68xx are Mk2 second open (<5616 being non-aircon)
Mk2 brake secondss are 9381-9539.
Corridor firsts are in the 13xxx range
Brake firsts are in the 14xxx range.

In general there were three generic formations:
BG-Sleepers-BG
all first class seated-Sleepers-BG
all second class seated-Sleepers-BG
Mixed first/second class seated accommodation wasn't common. BG vans in the middle of the train were common however.

The other thing to watch out for was formations where the train split - usually serving Glasgow/Edinburgh or Inverness/Fort William.
These might appear as two shorter "standard" formations joined together, e.g.
BSO TSO SLEP SLE BG SLE SLEP SLE SLEP TSO TSO TSO would split into
BSO TSO SLEP SLE and BG SLE SLEP SLE SLEP TSO TSO TSO

Steven B.

[CaleyDave]

@CaleyDave  It might be my imagination but I seem to recall at least one coach in a livery which was mainly metallic grey/silver with the large full body height Scotrail symbol (always looked like the CAIB logo to me) in silver white. I remember a model magazine claiming that it carried different liveries on each side though it looked to me like the photos were taken in a yard a few minutes apart and the light made the logo look darker than the main body colour on one side, and lighter on the other. This was a visual trick used in the French TER livery where the large TER letters appeared to change colour as the train passed.

I seem to recall the livery on the night coach was a Porterbrook one off.

I shall have a look into that, cant say i have seen it myself but i would have probably missed it at the time.

There are some actual Sleeper train formations from the early-mid 1980s listed on this site: http://www.britishrailways.net/rs/sleepers/westcoast.html

You'll need your Combined Volume handy as the trains are listed by vehicle numbers. Sleeper cars are highlighted in blue.

In general:
2xxx series numbers are Mk1 Sleepers
10500-10619 are Mk3 sleepers
Anything over 80xxx is a BG, except for 86xxx numbers which are GUV.
Numbers <2000 are Mk1 buffets/kitchen cars.
3xxx are typically Mk2 open firsts (<3170 being non-aircon)
5xxx-68xx are Mk2 second open (<5616 being non-aircon)
Mk2 brake secondss are 9381-9539.
Corridor firsts are in the 13xxx range
Brake firsts are in the 14xxx range.

In general there were three generic formations:
BG-Sleepers-BG
all first class seated-Sleepers-BG
all second class seated-Sleepers-BG
Mixed first/second class seated accommodation wasn't common. BG vans in the middle of the train were common however.

The other thing to watch out for was formations where the train split - usually serving Glasgow/Edinburgh or Inverness/Fort William.
These might appear as two shorter "standard" formations joined together, e.g.
BSO TSO SLEP SLE BG SLE SLEP SLE SLEP TSO TSO TSO would split into
BSO TSO SLEP SLE and BG SLE SLEP SLE SLEP TSO TSO TSO

Steven B.

Great Resource 

To complete your list of MK3 sleeper numbers:
10500-10619 are Mk3 SLEP (SLeep Either Class with Pantry)
(10620-10645 were cancelled)
10646-10734 are Mk3 SLE (SLeep Either Class)
Further MK3 SLE were all so cancelled.
Royal Household Sleepers 2914 and 2915 were built using the body shells originally destined for cancelled SLE 10734-5
10734 was later converted from Royal coach 2914 in 2001


You are right, my understanding as a generalization is that, under BR, sleeper only trains (No seated coaches) tended to be pairs SLE and SLEP coaches with Full Brake vans like BG exclusively.
The P in SLEP being Pantry from which basic drinks and snacks could be dispensed by an attendant so no buffet car was needed. The SLE always operated with a SLEP which is why there are more SLEP's than SLE's.

This stayed unchanged until lounge car were introduced between 87-89.
RLO (Reception Lounge Open) which were linked to the sleepers by radio so one attendant could cover all the coaches. These were focused on the Anglo-Scottish Sleepers which were moved to the West Coast due to Electrification work on East coast. (The electrification would be used as an excuse to discontinue a large number of sleeper services. These services at the time were all sleeper only.

In 1992 a number of FO(T) (First Open Trolley) were converted for the same purpose, to cut down the number of attendants, in mixed seated/sleeper sets and allowed the number of attendants to be reduced.
Initially these were used on The Night Riviera and Cross Country Glasgow-Plymouth sleeper. When the Cross Country sleeper was discontinued they moved to the Fort William Sleeper

In mixed sets, unless it had a FO(T), the seated portion and sleeper portions would be self contained.
Air conditioned Brake coaches were in short supply so a BG would tend to be in the formation.

The standard BR Liveries being (with overlap):
BR Blue Grey - 2P-006-001 Introduction to 1985
BR Executive - (Not Proposed Currently) [InterCity Sleeper] 1985 to 1987
BR Swallow - 2P-006-002 [INTERCITY] 1987 to Privatization.

[jamespetts]

It seems that Hattons have stock of the First Great Western and Jarvis versions of these as they have photographs of them. See here, for example.