N Gauge Forum

Mentioned on RMWeb, but not here yet. Might be worth keeping an eye on this thread in the meantime:

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/137336-dapol-announce-n-gauge-mk3-sleepers/ (http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/137336-dapol-announce-n-gauge-mk3-sleepers/)

Best

Scott

Couple of pictures on Facebook of unpainted EP sample in their display cabinet at TINGS - just as I was contemplating a project using Electra vinyls - sorry Adam!

But when will Dapol's unpainted sample actually turn into the real product?   2019 or 2029?  Will they be another 142?  And what livery will you be looking for?  Adam does all of them.  I have just reliveried my Farish ones in the Barbie style livery as that will fit the period ambience of Allanbrae better ie with EWS Class 67.   I sourced a couple of air con Mk 2s for the day coaches.   I am not buying the latest livery Caledonian 67 and in any case Dapol have not yet offered the revamped 73s in the latest Caledonian livery.

Just as I was planning on adding a SLEP body from Shapeways to a Dapol FO and RFM to complete my EWS Management Train. The big question now is, will Dapol release a bookset of Management Train coaches? :hmmm: Requires a level of joined up thinking that IMHO Dapol aren't particularly good at.

Quote from: Portpatrick on September 08, 2018, 12:41:16 PM
Dapol have not yet offered the revamped 73s in the latest Caledonian livery.

And quite probably never will - they are a small sub-class, with significant differences which would probably require completely new tooling.

Quote from: Portpatrick on September 08, 2018, 12:41:16 PM
But when will Dapol's unpainted sample actually turn into the real product?   2019 or 2029?  Will they be another 142?  And what livery will you be looking for?  Adam does all of them.  I have just reliveried my Farish ones in the Barbie style livery as that will fit the period ambience of Allanbrae better ie with EWS Class 67.   I sourced a couple of air con Mk 2s for the day coaches.   I am not buying the latest livery Caledonian 67 and in any case Dapol have not yet offered the revamped 73s in the latest Caledonian livery.

Don't be a pessimist--hardly as complicated as the Pacers.

The hardest part will be ensuring the paint is a total mismatch to other compatible Dapol products, like the CS 67. :D

Excellent news, hopefully they will produce both the SLe and SLeP, looking forward to some Intercity ones, just need the 87 and 90 to be revamped now, I do recall the Cross Country ones being a smaller consist and having an 86, but the lowland and highland ones from Euston were almost always 87 and 90 powered (and 86/1) due to ETH requirements

They said they were doing IC executive (among others) but not Swallow, which seems odd. No First Scotrail barbie ones either, but theyre doing blue/grey, GWR and Caledonian Sleeper teal.

Still need a decent mk2 for the Caledonian rakes, I'll stick with the Electra vinyls on Farish donors.   

Makes sense with the 67 and 86.

Excellent news! I was just starting to think about how to get a closer couple on my Farish ones. And with the prototype HST and Revolution's new wagons coming, it's time to start saving up.

Oh crumbs, even more saving up to do...

Cheers, Timmo

Well Caledonian teal will go  with the related 67.  For closer coupling  of the Farish try the shorter rapido couplings.  Perhaps on one end only

Nice!
And I was wondering what my CS teal class 92 was going to pull.
Well done, Dapol!

I want a rake of FGW dynamic lines, and GWR green.

Cheers , Timmo

Here's hoping they produce IC Swallow. If not and they do produce IC Exec, nay bother, quick mask up and spray in with Falcon grey, apply INTERCITY branding and number appropriately - Job done.

Well done Dapol. Another rake that can be added to future WCML layout buid :thumbsup:

Cheers
Anthony 

Quote from: mika on September 09, 2018, 08:19:43 PM
Nice!
And I was wondering what my CS teal class 92 was going to pull.
Well done, Dapol!

Revolution IPAs ;-)

Okay, hadn't thought about them (although I did see the photo on the Revolution site...)  :confused1:

But then, I'm more of a passenger train type...
And I love the sleeper concept :D

I notice in my 1989 BR timetable (in table 51) a service marked as having mixed sleeping/seated accommodation starting from Edinburgh at 2145h bound for Poole, calling, inter alia, at Birmingham New Street at 0317h, Oxford at 0542h (except on Fridays) and arriving at Poole at 0815h. This diagram might well be a reason to use sleepers on my planned layout.

Does anyone have any idea of the correct formation of this train would have been in 1989 - presumably a mix of mark 3 sleepers, air conditioned mark 2 day carriages, possibly a mark 1 BG and/or restaurant car and a class 47 hauling?

Yes, what restaurant/bar car to go with the Caledonian sleeper (Stag) Mk3 sleepers?

Great news, but I'm surprised the IC swallow is missing. I guess a respray will solve it.

I have found some interesting information to answer my own earlier questions:

(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2910/32779352914_06fbbb25b8_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/RWAKB9)47842 St Denys 4-7-91 (https://flic.kr/p/RWAKB9) by Southern Modellers (https://www.flickr.com/photos/southern_modellers/), on Flickr

The above is a picture of the Poole/Edinburgh sleeper taken in 1991, and here (https://www.flickr.com/photos/johndedman/8389581132/) is a link to a photograph of the same service taken in 1990, comprising one blue/grey air conditioned mark 2 mini-buffet, two mark 3 sleepers in Intercity swallow livery and one mark 1 BG in Intercity livery.

There is also a thread about these services on RMWeb here (http://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=28296), showing generally similar formations.

I remember them from the mid 90s, cross country ones (southwest to the north services) didn't have long to go, they had a loco change at New Street, not sure if they combined with other SW services, but the consist was certainly longer than that in the previous picture (I would see them in Preston), I don't recall all the headcodes without digging into old log books.

There were also more West Coast services at that time too, SBs I think were 1M11, 1M12, 1M15 and 1M16 (ex Glasgow, ex Edinburgh, ex Aberdeen and ex Inverness), NBs were 1S25 and 1S26 (The other two I think were 1S77 and 1S79, but stand to be corrected)

All these were in Intercity livery, at around the same time they dropped the seating coaches and went strictly sleeper (that decision being reversed once Scotrail took control in Privatisation)

having a look at old notebooks....

There were a few listed in the mid 70s that no longer run,

Euston - Stranraer Harbour via Dumfries & Ayr  1S07 2045 departure


Bristol TM - Edinburgh / Glasgow Central. 1S19 Later Plymouth to Edingburgh and Glasgow Via B'ham

1A00 2045 Barrow to Euston
1A01 xxxx Liverpool / Manchester to Euston
1A04 0125 Holyhead to Euston (Irish Mail)
1Vxx 2200 Glasgow/Edinburgh to Bristol Via B'ham
1M10 2230 Glasgow to Euston via (GSW)
1M11 2330 Glasgow to Euston r/a ex Motherwell
1M14 xxxx Stranraer Hbr to Euston
1M15 1930 Inverness to Euston (Royal Highlander)
1M16 xxxx Fort William to Euston


1M11 2330 Glasgow to Euston  was the sleeper service being referred to

back in the 80s ...

the Fort William sleeper was a portion off the Inverness. The normal routeing was West Coast Mainline as far as Carstairs, Wishaw, Holytown and Mossend Yard.

The train split in the yard. Inverness departed via Cumbernauld and Stirling. The Fort William then had a diesel from Mossend Yard, Springburn and Eastfield. This was booked for a Class 26 but could actually be anything that was available. The train was then booked to be hauled down the bank to Queen St by a Class 37 but could again be anything that was available on Eastfield.

As Queen St Class 37, ETHEL a TSO and Mk1 Micro Buffet were attached for the 06:00 to Fort William.

In the 1984/1985 timetable the Aberdeens were still off Kings Cross, there were generally 2 per night with an additional one from KX to Edinburgh. The Aberdeens are shown as running via Inverkeithing, Kirkcaldy and Dundee.

To Inverness / Fort William, in the currency of the timetable there were 2 per night from Euston to Inverness with one carrying the portion for Fort William. I think it divided/joined in Mossend Yard or thereabouts. The Inverness portions are shown as taking about 45 minutes to get from Motherwell to Larbert so I suggest a direct-ish routeing via Cumbernauld.

The Fort William portion is shown as having a stop in Glasgow QS.

however i remember working the 1990s and at some unearthly hour the west highland portion departed edinburgh via falkirk, westerton, helensburgh , the aberdeen portion left after the inverness or occasionally routed via carstairs into coatbridge and the aberdeen ran via perth

heady days

I remember travelling on the West Highland sleeper in 1995 - it stopped then at Edinburgh (I think possibly to change engines) in the small hours from what I recall.

james usually for the electric loco to be removed , a diesel to be attached, 2 , 3 . 4 sleeper coaches behind a mk1 brake and a couple of day coaches - usually up to 17 in the rake off london, an extra loco attached preston whilst mail was being off loaded
around 4.30 - 5 am !!!!!!!!!!! and 12 - midnight heading to london

the formation of the old 1M87 20:40 Poole - Edinburgh sleeper train,  it was booked into Platform 7 at Reading (the bay platform) where the loco change took place after heading via basingstoke

Mk2 Air con, a couple of Mark 3 sleepers, and a BG was not uncommon.

The service only ran for a few years when BR IC cross country sector tried to generate overnight business on a route which has healthy daytime traffic. It was never popular. It was started at a time when overnight business was in almost terminal decline anyway; time has shown that only a very small number of sleeper services have survived.

My recollection is that the Bournemouth / Poole sleeper was a portion off the Plymouth - Edinburgh working which ran independantly south of Birmingham New Street via Oxford, Reading and Southampton and vice versa and ran until 1992


the Plymouth - Edinburgh / Glasgow sleeper / seated service which was formed of up to 16 vehicles (8 in each of two portions dividing / attaching at carstairs

Interesting indeed - the short time period in which it runs coincides perfectly with the era in which the layout that I am planning to build will be set (1989), so this is splendid.

occasionally class 47 hauled to / from birmingham new street and awaited the plymouth via bristol, cheltenham, then attached / divided and the class 86 to / from scotland  but the micro buffet can easily be modelled


back in the 70s a Motorail Sleeper from Brockenhurst to Edinburgh/Glasgow, and an ordinary sleeper from Poole to Edinburgh/Glasgow ran. the link :

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/129366-sleeper-trains-on-swd-of-southern-region-1970s/ (http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/129366-sleeper-trains-on-swd-of-southern-region-1970s/)

Hello all,

Delighted to see this.

But while I accept the practicality that for the time being any Caledonian Sleeper model has to be representative, as there are no imminent suitable Mk2s for the support vehicles, I hope they'll add the First livery to go with the CS "stag" coaches as I believe very few (1? 2?) have been painted teal.

Cheers

Ben A.

Didn't realise it was as few as that. I still prefer the First 'barbie' livery.

Quote from: Ben A on September 11, 2018, 12:20:24 AM
Hello all,

Delighted to see this.

But while I accept the practicality that for the time being any Caledonian Sleeper model has to be representative, as there are no imminent suitable Mk2s for the support vehicles, I hope they'll add the First livery to go with the CS "stag" coaches as I believe very few (1? 2?) have been painted teal.

Cheers

Ben A.

only 10580 and 10693 repainted
john

Quote from: JBQFC on September 11, 2018, 09:31:26 AM

Quote from: Ben A on September 11, 2018, 12:20:24 AM
Hello all,

Delighted to see this.

But while I accept the practicality that for the time being any Caledonian Sleeper model has to be representative, as there are no imminent suitable Mk2s for the support vehicles, I hope they'll add the First livery to go with the CS "stag" coaches as I believe very few (1? 2?) have been painted teal.

Cheers

Ben A.

only 10580 and 10693 repainted
john

While I know not many Mk3 sleepers have been painted CS Teal, I have to admit I thought there was still slightly more than 2 going around these days?  I'll see if I can find out.

Cheers, Steve

When I watched the highlander sleeper go through Watford last July there were a number of teal in the consist.

There are obviously a number of mk2s as well - at the very least 6702 and 9801 from 30 seconds on Google.

Hi all,

I have checked and only two sleepers have been painted teal - 10580 and 10693.

cheers

Ben A.

Here are some BR(M) sleeper trains from 1985. Sleeper trains were often quite long - 14 coaches wasn't uncommon, especially once a few parcels vans had been added to the train - the Euston to Manchester & Liverpool train could have more parcels vans than sleepers!

That said, it's perfectly possible to model a five or six coach long train as several services split en-route - the Euston to Liverpool & Manchester train split a Stafford, with a BG, Sleeper and two or three second opens heading further north.

The non-sleeper portion of the train would often work daytime services; The Euston to Holyhead train listed below ran the route during the day-time, the sleeper only being added for the overnight service, giving a good reason for some shunting of passenger stock.

As a general rule of thumb a sleeper trains should be made up using:
1. At least one BG - usually at the loco end of the train, but also in the centre if the train is to split and work to two destinations.
2. A number of Mk3 sleepers (see note below)
3. A few Mk2 TSO - air-con Mk2d for Glasgow/Edinburgh trains, non-air-con for secondary routes

There were two types of Mk3 sleeper - with (SLEP) and without (SLE) a pantry. Externally they looked the same but the SLEP has space for an attendent who would provide hot drinks. Often a SLE and SLEP ran as a pair so seeing an even number of sleepers in the train is very common.

There's nothing wrong with mixing BR blue/Grey, and both versions of Intercity in the same train. BR didn't worry about it so why should you?


Bristol - Glasgow & Edinburgh
BG SLEP SLE SLEP Mk2c-TSO Mk2c-TSO Mk2c-BSO BG BG SLEP SLE Mk2c-TSO Mk2c-TSO Mk2c-TSO

Euston-Holyhead      
SLEP Mk2d-BSO Mk2d-TSO Mk2d-TSO Mk2d-TSO Mk2d-TSO Mk2d-TSO RBR Mk2d-FO   Mk2d-FO   BG 

Euston-Stranraer      
BG BG BG BG BG Mk2c-TSO Mk2c-TSO Mk2c-TSO Mk2c-TSO Mk2c-TSO SLEP SLE SLEP BG

Euston-Inverness      
BG SLEP SLE SLEP SLE SLEP SLE Mk2c-TSO Mk2c-TSO   BG 

Euston-Glasgow/Edinburgh   
BG SLEP SLE SLEP SLE SLEP SLE BG Mk2d-FO Mk2d-FO Mk2d-FO Mk2d-FO Mk2d-FO BG 

Euston-Liverpool/Manchester      
BG BG Mk2c-SO Mk2c-SO Mk2c-SO SLEP BG SLEP Mk2c-TSO Mk2c-TSO Mk2c-TSO BG GUV

Plymouth/Penzance-Paddington
BG BG SLEP BG SLEP SLE SLEP Mk2d-BFK Mk2d-TSO Mk2d-SO Mk2d-SO Mk2d-SO GUV

Quote from: Ben A on September 11, 2018, 11:32:15 AM

Hi all,

I have checked and only two sleepers have been painted teal - 10580 and 10693.

cheers

Ben A.

Thanks for confirming that again Ben.  As I said before, I didn't realise there are only 2, but I'll take both your words for it.

Cheers, Steve

I remember getting the Glasgow QS/Edinburgh - Inverness/Aberdeen on a number of occasions. I'm sure the Portions split/joined up at Perth which must have made for some serious shunting (twice, given NB and SB trains). Not sure of formations but I don't recall them being too long even though they swapped half the train, probably only a SLE and a SLEP for each destination and a couple of MK2As and a BG per portion (although that's still 10 coaches....)

With all the shunting there was a considerable wait at Perth, and still we'd arrive at Inverness at about 5am. Not great if you were in the seated bit!
I do remember travelling in one carriage where the lights went out every time we pulled away from a stop.....

Just stumbled across this topic. I'm quite new in british themed modeling, so this was actually new to me. Night Riviera sleepers are precisely what I need for my Cornish layout, but Dapol hasn't announced any of these in February... so I guess we can forget about it in 2019? Any informations, anyone? :-\

I keep hoping for Gresley sleepers and full brake to complement the existing Gresley items.

Quote from: Cutter on April 16, 2019, 01:18:35 AM
I keep hoping for Gresley sleepers and full brake to complement the existing Gresley items.

The Full Brake is available as a plastic kit from the NGS. It is probably the easiest coach kit to assemble currently available (so should not be feared by anyone with no kit building experience) and even includes a RTR Dapol chassis so is fully compatible with the Dapol Gresleys.

Quote from: LowerQuadrant on April 13, 2019, 06:05:01 PM
Just stumbled across this topic. I'm quite new in british themed modeling, so this was actually new to me. Night Riviera sleepers are precisely what I need for my Cornish layout, but Dapol hasn't announced any of these in February... so I guess we can forget about it in 2019? Any informations, anyone? :-\

There's not been any more information on them since TINGS, when they had an EP. Given how long it's taken to get things like the HIA limestone hoppers from EP to production I wouldn't be surprised if they were not this year, no. That said, it should just be a modification of the existing mk3, so hardly a whole new model.

It would be nice if they could restore faith in many modelers, after all the 142 took how many years?, we aren't holding our breath for a timely release.

In some ways that's a bit unfair, it's not like they didn't release anything in the time it took to get the 142 to market, it just took a bloody long time.

That said I presume they're re-using the chassis, roof and end detailing for the mk3 slepeers, so it's  basically the windows, interior (if different) and liveries (where different, GWR and Intercity should be alright). That shouldn't be a huge ask. But again, the HIAs were shown last year at the Horsham show, which was just last weekend, so a year down the line they've not been seen. The 86 new liveries keep slipping, and that's an existing model. The 50 has been oh so close for ages. They do seem to struggle to get anything over the line!

Then are they going to find the CS ones underwhelming sellers because there aren't many of them in real life and you can't get the requisite mk2s for a proper rake (same goes for Intercity on that point), the Jarvis one just seems a weird choice too.

I agree that my statement may have been unfair, however despite the class 68 being a success, they have too many projects that have dragged on or not been updated, it just doesn't instill a good vibe in people that you are expecting to part with hard earned money for.

With regard to the tooling for the SLE and SLEP, aren't the ends different with inbuilt lights (will they work?), and the pipes etc for the water tanks, with these subtle differences the underframes may also be slightly different, with that said the roof may be the only thing they can reuse (and I'm not totally sure of that).

Maybe we will be presented with a compromise.

If you check on the Dapol Digest an update was made by Joel (Dapol MD) last week.

Quote from: Intercity on April 16, 2019, 04:15:01 PM
With regard to the tooling for the SLE and SLEP, aren't the ends different with inbuilt lights (will they work?), and the pipes etc for the water tanks, with these subtle differences the underframes may also be slightly different, with that said the roof may be the only thing they can reuse (and I'm not totally sure of that).

Yes to all of that, but given their existing model is a hybrid mk3/3a, with CDL mouldings on all liveries and a generic buffet I really wouldn't hold out hope that the SLE/P will be anything more than new windows in the existing mk3.

To save everyone else looking all the Digest says is they're delayed by a month . Would be helpful to say that rather than just say that there's a post...

Quote from: njee20 on April 16, 2019, 10:19:59 PM
To save everyone else looking all the Digest says is they're delayed by a month . Would be helpful to say that rather than just say that there's a post...

That's not what it said in the post I read

Here's a link to it https://digest.dapol.co.uk/forum/n-gauge-models/rolling-stock/mk3-vehicles/2943-mk3-sleepers/page2

I would have put the link originally but Intercity was commenting that they wasn't holding out for a timely release without actually looking for any information. It was easy to find to on the Dapol Digest.

Well thanks for directly bashing me, but my posts refer to the fact I wouldn't hold my breath for a timely release was in response to the many other projects that have dragged on and on, and disputes all the replies my stance still hasn't changed in that I won't be holding my breath on these, much the same as the hope for a Farish 319 but that's a different thread.

Have any retailers got these on their website for pre-ordering yet? I haven't found any.

I don't think Dapol have released part numbers or anything have they? They're still a way off.

Not mentioned here, a couple days ago Rails of Sheffield and Hattons published Details of the forthcoming models including part numbers and liveries. They can be pre-ordered now.
- Blue/Grey Intercity
- Intercity Executive
- Current GWR Green
- Jarvis Departmental Red
- First Great Western Green "Fag Packet"
- First Great Western Blue "Dynamic Lines"
- ScotRail Caledonian Sleeper
- Serco/Fastline Departmental Red
https://railsofsheffield.com/news/articles/3434-mk3-sleepers (https://railsofsheffield.com/news/articles/3434-mk3-sleepers)
https://hattons.co.uk/newsdetail.aspx?id=715 (https://hattons.co.uk/newsdetail.aspx?id=715)

As Exclusive Modells, KMS Railtech offers the following Variants as Twin-Pack:
- Current Teal Caledonian Sleeper Stack
- First Caledonian Sleeper with white band
- First Caledonian Sleeper debranded
https://www.kmsrailtech.co.uk/318-2mm-exclusives (https://www.kmsrailtech.co.uk/318-2mm-exclusives)

Apparently the models will be delivered UNNUMBERED. Decals would be provided to number ones own rake. I have no other source, but a post on RMweb: https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index....comment=3677145 (https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index....comment=3677145)

Quote from: MacRat on June 06, 2020, 05:10:05 PM
Apparently the models will be delivered UNNUMBERED. Decals would be provided to number ones own rake. I have no other source, but a post on RMweb: https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index....comment=3677145 (https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index....comment=3677145)

Actually, the sleepers will be delivered with running numbers: https://railsofsheffield.com/news/articles/3434-mk3-sleepers (https://railsofsheffield.com/news/articles/3434-mk3-sleepers). There's no mention of decals. Anyway, I can't wait to get my hands on a couple of these! :drool: It also seems as if Dapol is going to do some more loco-hauled Mk3s http://www.dapol.co.uk/Catalogue/44/index.html (http://www.dapol.co.uk/Catalogue/44/index.html). It sure would be nice of them to provide the necessary rolling stock for a full Night Riviera rake, even if it means some compromises.

Regards
Christoph

Quote from: LowerQuadrant on June 07, 2020, 09:35:34 AM

Quote from: MacRat on June 06, 2020, 05:10:05 PM
Apparently the models will be delivered UNNUMBERED. Decals would be provided to number ones own rake. I have no other source, but a post on RMweb: https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index....comment=3677145 (https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index....comment=3677145)

Actually, the sleepers will be delivered with running numbers: https://railsofsheffield.com/news/articles/3434-mk3-sleepers (https://railsofsheffield.com/news/articles/3434-mk3-sleepers). There's no mention of decals.

Thank you for the correction.

Only thing I have noticed is the art work for the "Intercity Executive" sleeper isn't Executive at all, it's swallow!

If it is fixed they will sell me a rake of them.
Going to need to lookout my digest logon to point this out.

Looks like KMS are in for another big order from me for the Caledonian sleeper coaches.

Re the new run of all loco hauled mk3: the prototype should be under development so hopefully we may see mk3a's with the correct roofs!

Quote from: CaleyDave on June 07, 2020, 01:01:29 PM
Re the new run of all loco hauled mk3: the prototype should be under development so hopefully we may see mk3a's with the correct roofs!

So, there's new tooling involved? Please share your knowledge! :o

Quote from: LowerQuadrant on June 07, 2020, 02:03:24 PM

Quote from: CaleyDave on June 07, 2020, 01:01:29 PM
Re the new run of all loco hauled mk3: the prototype should be under development so hopefully we may see mk3a's with the correct roofs!

So, there's new tooling involved? Please share your knowledge! :o

Hi

Dapol have tooled up for the prototype HST.
https://www.dapol.co.uk/shop/preorder/N-Gauge-Preorder/HSTP_Preorder (https://www.dapol.co.uk/shop/preorder/N-Gauge-Preorder/HSTP_Preorder)

Cheers

Paul

Quote from: PaulCheffus on June 07, 2020, 02:07:27 PM

Quote from: LowerQuadrant on June 07, 2020, 02:03:24 PM

Quote from: CaleyDave on June 07, 2020, 01:01:29 PM
Re the new run of all loco hauled mk3: the prototype should be under development so hopefully we may see mk3a's with the correct roofs!

So, there's new tooling involved? Please share your knowledge! :o

Hi

Dapol have tooled up for the prototype HST.
https://www.dapol.co.uk/shop/preorder/N-Gauge-Preorder/HSTP_Preorder (https://www.dapol.co.uk/shop/preorder/N-Gauge-Preorder/HSTP_Preorder)

Cheers

Paul

Have they though(!)? The resource you link to states "We will give updates along the way to indicate how close we are to starting the tooling". I don't recall reading anything further, so interpret that to mean they are nowhere near to starting tooling.

Quote from: RailGooner on June 07, 2020, 04:03:19 PM

Quote from: PaulCheffus on June 07, 2020, 02:07:27 PM

Quote from: LowerQuadrant on June 07, 2020, 02:03:24 PM

Quote from: CaleyDave on June 07, 2020, 01:01:29 PM
Re the new run of all loco hauled mk3: the prototype should be under development so hopefully we may see mk3a's with the correct roofs!

So, there's new tooling involved? Please share your knowledge! :o

Hi

Dapol have tooled up for the prototype HST.
https://www.dapol.co.uk/shop/preorder/N-Gauge-Preorder/HSTP_Preorder (https://www.dapol.co.uk/shop/preorder/N-Gauge-Preorder/HSTP_Preorder)

Cheers

Paul

Have they though(!)? The resource you link to states "We will give updates along the way to indicate how close we are to starting the tooling". I don't recall reading anything further, so interpret that to mean they are nowhere near to starting tooling.

They claim to be evaluating the first decorated samples.

http://www.dapol.co.uk/Catalogue/24/index.html#zoom=z (http://www.dapol.co.uk/Catalogue/24/index.html#zoom=z)

Whoops my fault for leading us off topic.

woodbury22uk beat me to posting a catalogue link.

Plenty going on with regards to mk3 tooling and artwork between the new HST's, sleeper's, prototype's and yet to be announced loco hauled.

Bringing it back to the sleepers they are awaiting the first Deco sample (assume Deco means decorated in this context).
I have asked on the Digest if 2P-006-002 is Executive or Swallow since the description doesn't match the artwork.

Go a reply regarding

Quote from: CaleyDave on June 07, 2020, 04:44:42 PM
I have asked on the Digest if 2P-006-002 is Executive or Swallow since the description doesn't match the artwork.

Got a reply on the digest stating 2P-006-002 will be as per the aren't work, so Swallow (INTERCITY)

I wanted to order KMS' sleepers but I didn't succeed.
I sent KMS an email on Tuesday evening but no reply yet.
Does KMS reply slowly to emails? Any experience with them?
I don't want to miss their Mk3 sleepers.
Thanks.

Didn't succeed how? They're on Facebook too, and have been responsive there previously.

Still can't decide on these. Without the mk2s they seem a bit pointless, but they have hinted at mk2s as well...  :hmmm:

I have found them both exceptionally quick to reply (as in minutes) and also exceptionally slow (as in weeks).  It's a bit of a lottery...

Thanks for your replies.
It seems you cannot order fron France, only from Germany when non-UK...
I don't have a Facebook account.
Let's see.

Quote from: nookfield on April 16, 2019, 08:40:36 PM
If you check on the Dapol Digest an update was made by Joel (Dapol MD) last week.

Could you please post a link? I can't seem to find anything... :-[

Quote from: LowerQuadrant on August 10, 2020, 12:45:50 PM

Quote from: nookfield on April 16, 2019, 08:40:36 PM
If you check on the Dapol Digest an update was made by Joel (Dapol MD) last week.

Could you please post a link? I can't seem to find anything... :-[

https://digest.dapol.co.uk/forum/n-gauge-models/rolling-stock/mk3-vehicles/2943-mk3-sleepers/page2

Quote from: woodbury22uk on August 10, 2020, 01:33:25 PM
https://digest.dapol.co.uk/forum/n-gauge-models/rolling-stock/mk3-vehicles/2943-mk3-sleepers/page2

My eyes aren't the best... but isn't that last post two months old? :scowl:

No updates, no decorated samples as of yet. Forgive me if I don't bet my money on 2020, let alone Q3.

Quote from: LowerQuadrant on August 10, 2020, 06:01:35 PM

Quote from: woodbury22uk on August 10, 2020, 01:33:25 PM
https://digest.dapol.co.uk/forum/n-gauge-models/rolling-stock/mk3-vehicles/2943-mk3-sleepers/page2 (https://digest.dapol.co.uk/forum/n-gauge-models/rolling-stock/mk3-vehicles/2943-mk3-sleepers/page2)

My eyes aren't the best... but isn't that last post two months old? :scowl:

No updates, no decorated samples as of yet. Forgive me if I don't bet my money on 2020, let alone Q3.

With respect the post you asked about was in 2019. :-)  Bit surprised at your negativity. I expect the coaches to be here within two months and almost certainly still in Q3/2020. Honestly a week or two here or there won't be the end of the world.

I am sure you have access to the online catalogue as well.

http://www.dapol.co.uk/Catalogue/46/index.html (http://www.dapol.co.uk/Catalogue/46/index.html)

With respect the post you asked about was in 2019. :-)  Bit surprised at your negativity. I expect the coaches to be here within two months and almost certainly still in Q3/2020. Honestly a week or two here or there won't be the end of the world.

I am sure you have access to the online catalogue as well.

http://www.dapol.co.uk/Catalogue/46/index.html (http://www.dapol.co.uk/Catalogue/46/index.html)
[/quote]

I don't know where to begin to explain what happened here... I obviously need a vacation. Sorry guys, my mistake  :-[ Of course I know the online catalogue.

There seems to have been a delay in these, since decorated samples have not yet been shown even though these were most recently announced as being available in Q3 2020, which is now in the past.

Quote from: jamespetts on November 21, 2020, 01:20:19 AM
There seems to have been a delay in these, since decorated samples have not yet been shown even though these were most recently announced as being available in Q3 2020, which is now in the past.

My faith in Q3/2020 proves to have been misplaced. Maybe they are sitting in one of the containers on the ships lining up to get into Felixstowe. It seems like we are having a dry-run at January 2021 customs clearance with the huge delays to imports round our airports and seaports. Not seeing decorated samples does not concern me that much, but I have been known to misjudge a half full glass.

According to Hatton's (http://"https://www.hattons.co.uk/541729/dapol_2p_006_003_mk_3_sle_sleeper_10632_in_gwr_green/stockdetail.aspx"), the Dapol sleeper coaches should arrive during Q1 2021. We'll see.

Quote from: LowerQuadrant on December 31, 2020, 12:20:03 PM
According to Hatton's (http://"https://www.hattons.co.uk/541729/dapol_2p_006_003_mk_3_sle_sleeper_10632_in_gwr_green/stockdetail.aspx"), the Dapol sleeper coaches should arrive during Q1 2021. We'll see.

I had a message today from KMS Railtech to tell me my Caledonian liveried ones are now in stock, so the others should be around soon.

Quote from: woodbury22uk on December 31, 2020, 01:29:11 PM
I had a message today from KMS Railtech to tell me my Caledonian liveried ones are now in stock, so the others should be around soon.

Nah, KMS have just recanted: https://www.kmsrailtech.co.uk/ (https://www.kmsrailtech.co.uk/) "Our website has sent out emails to customers saying the Caledonian Sleepers are now in stock. This is a website error. Please ignore this and we will invoice you when they arrive. Currently expected Q1 2021."

Still can't decide whether to get a rake of these. Without the appropriate Farish mk2s to match them. 

Quote from: njee20 on December 31, 2020, 02:43:01 PM
Still can't decide whether to get a rake of these. Without the appropriate Farish mk2s to match them.

Imo, providing Mk2s would be a no-brainer if the Mk3 sleepers should sell well. Probably anybody would buy them to complete the train. The same goes for GWR/FGW day stock.

I will get myself a GWR-rake and hope for the best. ;)

Quote from: LowerQuadrant on December 31, 2020, 03:01:34 PM

Quote from: njee20 on December 31, 2020, 02:43:01 PM
Still can't decide whether to get a rake of these. Without the appropriate Farish mk2s to match them.

Imo, providing Mk2s would be a no-brainer if the Mk3 sleepers should sell well. Probably anybody would buy them to complete the train. The same goes for GWR/FGW day stock.

I will get myself a GWR-rake and hope for the best. ;)

I can help with the day coaches for Scotrail and GWR sets. GWR uses Mk3 TSO, RDM and BFO on their overnight sets, so you could get away with 2 HST TSOs and a RFM RTR with a bit of renumbering.

I've already got a full set of vinyled Farish coaches - the problem for me is that whilst they work well in isolation, I'm not a fan of mixing and matched vinyled and painted, as it looks a bit odd.

I'm not sure it is a no-brainer, it would mean Farish tooling a couple of variants uniquely for the sleeper. KMS hinted at trying to get them done, but given the price of the standard mk2s I shudder to think at how much a limited run tooling would be.

The difficulty of the Mk2s is that they are non-standard and a relatively small number of coaches so a lot of tooling if you want them to be correct. Isn't the Farish 2f BSO useful for some of the sleepers? The RLOs were converted from FOs?

Cheers Mike

I think one could achieve it by filling in windows on available coaches, which is immeasurably easier than trying to add windows.

I have got the makings of a CAD to test the viability, using the under frame/bogies etc from old Farish ones, but I decided it was too much effort!

Quote from: red_death on December 31, 2020, 03:31:44 PM
The difficulty of the Mk2s is that they are non-standard and a relatively small number of coaches so a lot of tooling if you want them to be correct.

You have a point there.

The Night Riviera day coaches should be less of a problem, as captainelectra pointed out earlier. I'll gladly accept some compromises (eg window alignment). Using HST stock would be a bit much to ask... give me a loco-hauled buffet and two TSOs with silver doors on both ends and I'll be happy. I hope Dapol are listening. ;)

I have an old TPM inlay to do an RLO in IC Exec (add a donor coach for it), don't need the BFO as this didn't appear till sometime later, so can make do with a BG and a declassified FO or two for a West Highland style train.

Quote from: red_death on December 31, 2020, 03:31:44 PM
The difficulty of the Mk2s is that they are non-standard and a relatively small number of coaches so a lot of tooling if you want them to be correct. Isn’t the Farish 2f BSO useful for some of the sleepers? The RLOs were converted from FOs?

Cheers Mike

Correct, a BSO was used on the Fort William trains as cover for a shortage of BUO's towards the end.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/railwayscene/29054886548/ (https://www.flickr.com/photos/railwayscene/29054886548/)
This was technically a 2E rather than F but as per the differences I list below its not something most people will notice.


An Intercity Liveried 2F BSO was also used for a time
https://flic.kr/p/22cQLfu (https://flic.kr/p/22cQLfu)

For the MK2E BSO 9497
Primarily just a repaint into Caledonian Sleeper and you are good to go.
If you wanted accuracy you would Backdate to a 2E by
-Adding Ventilation Cabinet,
-swap Air conditioning cooler
-Adding a water filler cap to the roof.
(Originally the 2E BSO had deeper door windows when built but from pictures it has gained the same doors as the 2F)

For the RLO its not a bad as we think
6700-4: start with a MK2F FO, repaint including painting over some of the windows behind the pantry (The frames are still present) and alter the interior.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/rossburns/27339678207/ (https://www.flickr.com/photos/rossburns/27339678207/)
6705-8: start with a MK2F RFO repaint and alter the interior.

For MK2E BUO 9800-10
Start with a TSO, Backdate it and start chopping it up.
Backdate the coach from an F to an E is: Add Ventilation Cabinet, swap Air conditioning cooler and if you Pick number 98007-10 you can avoid adding the roof water filler and Deeper door windows which are present on the earlier ones. (you would need to referrer to pictures as I suspect doors were changed to the later type as on the 2F).
No idea how you reliably make the guards door, Etches I guess.
I have played about with the idea of building a BUO on paper but its not for my faint heart to attempt.

I am secretly hopeful that the way the new Farish MK2F is constructed, and the fact we have seen odd balls like the DBSO and RFO, that Farish could expand the range. Now that the BUO is used in test trains maybe it stands a chance of selling more, especially if Farish Bring out the later versions of the DBSO.

Of course you could just buy a BSO and RFO off the shelf and not repaint them:
https://flic.kr/p/MoaUmf (https://flic.kr/p/MoaUmf)

---

The Night Rivera discussion is interesting.

Quote from: LowerQuadrant on December 31, 2020, 04:01:56 PM

Quote from: red_death on December 31, 2020, 03:31:44 PM
The difficulty of the Mk2s is that they are non-standard and a relatively small number of coaches so a lot of tooling if you want them to be correct.

You have a point there.

The Night Riviera day coaches should be less of a problem, as captainelectra pointed out earlier. I'll gladly accept some compromises (eg window alignment). Using HST stock would be a bit much to ask... give me a loco-hauled buffet and two TSOs with silver doors on both ends and I'll be happy. I hope Dapol are listening. ;)

Buffet (10217, 10219, 10225)
I don't think its unfair to say we will never see an accurate Buffet produced Ready to Run. The Dapol RFM is the wrong RFM, as the one used by GWR has large windows on the corridor side being an ex First Open coach (And that is before we get to the minefield that is toilet windows and roof vents).
https://flic.kr/p/2c7KsyH (https://flic.kr/p/2c7KsyH)
https://flic.kr/p/24pait5 (https://flic.kr/p/24pait5)
As much as I would like to see more MK3 variants produced it has to be way down the list but we are getting towards the minimal returns (I would love to see a 3 windowed buffet like the TRUB/TRFB RUB/RFB however whilst You could sell a TGS to everyone with a HST, a new buffet detracts from sales of your generic buffet going forward and there is no guarantee anyone will want to switch out a wrong buffet for a right one.)

TSO (12100, 12142, 12161)
Nice and easy, just a repaint. For accuracy it should be supplied with the same roof as the Prototype.

The BFO (think it is a BUO now) (17173 17174, 17175)
There were only ever 3 of these built, unless you know you already want one you probably didn't know it excised.
If we were to just repaint a RTR model I am not sure if the TGS or a First would be more appropriate.
The windows at the guards compartment are out of alignment with the normal mk3 windows.
TGS gives you the right door, the first windows are better.
I suspect the answer is first with some printing beside the door to make it look like it has the extra wide section. (Both would require some windows painted out)
https://www.flickr.com/photos/91374144@N03/28489764256/ (https://www.flickr.com/photos/91374144@N03/28489764256/)
https://www.flickr.com/photos/rob50037/24979189436/ (https://www.flickr.com/photos/rob50037/24979189436/)

I would show off my attempt at building one but after painting I realized things were less that square so its in the drawer or shame till I retry (A bad craftsman blames his tools but it was the lack of tools i had at the time rather than being difficult). I made it out of a TGS and FO so it is doable. Again I have confidence that, due to availability and price, someone could produce an accurate rake with some cutting and shutting to produce both the RFM and BFO coaches.

Edit:
On reviewing pictures I realised that both rfm and bfo have had windows changed in recent refurbishments.
Rfm- https://flic.kr/p/TMPoxS (https://flic.kr/p/TMPoxS)
Bfo- https://flic.kr/p/2dgMR9f (https://flic.kr/p/2dgMR9f)

This appears to be within the last few years (could be as recently as 2019). Again show the perils of modeling a non standard fleet. My above comments still stand for  the older coaches.
However I think looking at the refurbished coaches
For a BFO repaint a TGS, blanking/painting off the old guards windows. (Bonus points for swapping interior with a FO.)
For a RFM a standard 8 window tso/fo may be a better starting point with the roof swapped out for a kitchen roof.
The seated coach, having being fitted with a disabled toilet is not much better with a small window replacing a big one. I fear I have walked into a minefield far larger than I thought it was.
https://flic.kr/p/2jnRxhE (https://flic.kr/p/2jnRxhE)

Point being, a custom repaint or commission which captures the spirit of the set using coaches in Dapol's current range is possible. For those wanting more accuracy the models are cheep enough to allow people to have ago themselves.

For Night Riviera stock a fudge would be to buy either the Dynamic Lines or GWR HST non sleeper coaches and change the chassis for loco hauled ones with buffers. Extra decals for the numbers and additional titles are available. I did the Dynamic Lines conversion several years ago and an article was published in the Dapol Collectors Club Magazine.

Geoff

I have been searching for photos of the various seated coaches used on the two sleepers since Privatization.

None of these pictures I have linked too are my own. I hope they may be useful to someone.

I have ignore (for the time being) The Nationalized and Departmental Liveries announced so far.
These being:
BR Blue Grey - 2P-006-001
BR Swallow - 2P-006-002
Jarvis Departmental-  2P-006-004
Serco Departmental - 2P-006-008
DB Executive Train - Part of set 2D-017-100

Night Riviera

Originally used MK2's and quickly changed to MK3 as soon as they became available.

FGW 'Fag Packet'
2P-006-005

MK2 Day Coaches
all Mk2D BSO-TSO-RMBF-sleepers
https://www.flickr.com/photos/75892080@N06/21032306670/ (https://www.flickr.com/photos/75892080@N06/21032306670/)
I think my designation are correct, at the time there were a number of coaches allocated to Western.
Please do point me in the right direction if I am wrong as I didn't know about these prior to searching for pictures.

Mk3 Day Coaches
3A TSO-3B BFO-3 RFM-sleepers
https://www.flickr.com/photos/43077/3010545571/ (https://www.flickr.com/photos/43077/3010545571/)

FGW Dynamic Lines
2P-006-006

BFO-TSO-RFM-Sleepers
https://www.flickr.com/photos/pwakely/21166715650/ (https://www.flickr.com/photos/pwakely/21166715650/)

GWR Riviera Green
2P-006-003

BFO-TSO-RFM-Sleepers
https://www.flickr.com/photos/pwakely/50130426522/ (https://www.flickr.com/photos/pwakely/50130426522/)

I believe that the only sleeper livery missing which is not included in the proposed models is:
Great western "Merlin" livery
but these would have been mixed with INTERCITY and later 'Fag Packet' liveried day coaches.
I have struggled to find a picture of Merlin, however I did find this vide:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pN3yFV-qJq4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pN3yFV-qJq4)

Caledonian Sleeper

First-Scotrail
2P-006-007

BUO-RLO-Sleepers
https://www.flickr.com/photos/37923727@N04/39636955882/ (https://www.flickr.com/photos/37923727@N04/39636955882/)

BUO-RLO-Sleepers (Visit Scotland Livery)
https://www.flickr.com/photos/smoggyrail/27767479935/ (https://www.flickr.com/photos/smoggyrail/27767479935/)

FIRST CALEDONIAN SLEEPER [various branding] (KMS exclusives)
First ScotRail (white Band) - 2P-006-KMS2
First ScotRail Gold/No Band - 2P-006-KMS3
Debranded - 2P-006-KMS4

Images of these coaches can be seen here:
http://www.scot-rail.co.uk/page/Caledonian+Sleepers (http://www.scot-rail.co.uk/page/Caledonian+Sleepers)

BUO-RLO-Sleepers
https://www.flickr.com/photos/159935008@N03/27336075708/ (https://www.flickr.com/photos/159935008@N03/27336075708/)
Most of these odd ball coaches were during the transition to the Standardized First Branding or at the end when it was being removed.
These odd-balls would run with normal sleepers.

Caledonian sleeper 'STAG' (KMS exclusives)
2P-006-KMS1

Not enough MK3's were repainted for a full train.

BUO-RLO-Sleepers Normal seated coaches
https://www.flickr.com/photos/153305438@N06/33180004018/ (https://www.flickr.com/photos/153305438@N06/33180004018/)

BSO-RLO-Sleepers (Caledonian Sleeper) Stand in Fort William Brake coach
https://www.flickr.com/photos/167172957@N08/47534797651/in/pool-3962087@N20/ (https://www.flickr.com/photos/167172957@N08/47534797651/in/pool-3962087@N20/)

BSO-RFO-Sleepers (Intercity) Stand in Mk2 due to shortages (Worked Fort William portion)
https://www.flickr.com/photos/167247484@N07/49221396851/in/pool-caledoniansleeper/ (https://www.flickr.com/photos/167247484@N07/49221396851/in/pool-caledoniansleeper/)

I think all Caledonian sleeper MK3 liveries are covered between Dapol and KMS.

@CaleyDave (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=4869)  It might be my imagination but I seem to recall at least one coach in a livery which was mainly metallic grey/silver with the large full body height Scotrail symbol (always looked like the CAIB logo to me) in silver white. I remember a model magazine claiming that it carried different liveries on each side though it looked to me like the photos were taken in a yard a few minutes apart and the light made the logo look darker than the main body colour on one side, and lighter on the other. This was a visual trick used in the French TER livery where the large TER letters appeared to change colour as the train passed.

I seem to recall the livery on the night coach was a Porterbrook one off.

There are some actual Sleeper train formations from the early-mid 1980s listed on this site: http://www.britishrailways.net/rs/sleepers/westcoast.html (http://www.britishrailways.net/rs/sleepers/westcoast.html)

You'll need your Combined Volume handy as the trains are listed by vehicle numbers. Sleeper cars are highlighted in blue.

In general:
2xxx series numbers are Mk1 Sleepers
10500-10619 are Mk3 sleepers
Anything over 80xxx is a BG, except for 86xxx numbers which are GUV.
Numbers <2000 are Mk1 buffets/kitchen cars.
3xxx are typically Mk2 open firsts (<3170 being non-aircon)
5xxx-68xx are Mk2 second open (<5616 being non-aircon)
Mk2 brake secondss are 9381-9539.
Corridor firsts are in the 13xxx range
Brake firsts are in the 14xxx range.

In general there were three generic formations:
BG-Sleepers-BG
all first class seated-Sleepers-BG
all second class seated-Sleepers-BG
Mixed first/second class seated accommodation wasn't common. BG vans in the middle of the train were common however.

The other thing to watch out for was formations where the train split - usually serving Glasgow/Edinburgh or Inverness/Fort William.
These might appear as two shorter "standard" formations joined together, e.g.
BSO TSO SLEP SLE BG SLE SLEP SLE SLEP TSO TSO TSO would split into
BSO TSO SLEP SLE and BG SLE SLEP SLE SLEP TSO TSO TSO

Steven B.

Quote from: woodbury22uk on January 06, 2021, 10:30:22 AM
@CaleyDave (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=4869)  It might be my imagination but I seem to recall at least one coach in a livery which was mainly metallic grey/silver with the large full body height Scotrail symbol (always looked like the CAIB logo to me) in silver white. I remember a model magazine claiming that it carried different liveries on each side though it looked to me like the photos were taken in a yard a few minutes apart and the light made the logo look darker than the main body colour on one side, and lighter on the other. This was a visual trick used in the French TER livery where the large TER letters appeared to change colour as the train passed.

I seem to recall the livery on the night coach was a Porterbrook one off.

I shall have a look into that, cant say i have seen it myself but i would have probably missed it at the time.

Quote from: Steven B on January 06, 2021, 12:14:15 PM
There are some actual Sleeper train formations from the early-mid 1980s listed on this site: http://www.britishrailways.net/rs/sleepers/westcoast.html (http://www.britishrailways.net/rs/sleepers/westcoast.html)

You'll need your Combined Volume handy as the trains are listed by vehicle numbers. Sleeper cars are highlighted in blue.

In general:
2xxx series numbers are Mk1 Sleepers
10500-10619 are Mk3 sleepers
Anything over 80xxx is a BG, except for 86xxx numbers which are GUV.
Numbers <2000 are Mk1 buffets/kitchen cars.
3xxx are typically Mk2 open firsts (<3170 being non-aircon)
5xxx-68xx are Mk2 second open (<5616 being non-aircon)
Mk2 brake secondss are 9381-9539.
Corridor firsts are in the 13xxx range
Brake firsts are in the 14xxx range.

In general there were three generic formations:
BG-Sleepers-BG
all first class seated-Sleepers-BG
all second class seated-Sleepers-BG
Mixed first/second class seated accommodation wasn't common. BG vans in the middle of the train were common however.

The other thing to watch out for was formations where the train split - usually serving Glasgow/Edinburgh or Inverness/Fort William.
These might appear as two shorter "standard" formations joined together, e.g.
BSO TSO SLEP SLE BG SLE SLEP SLE SLEP TSO TSO TSO would split into
BSO TSO SLEP SLE and BG SLE SLEP SLE SLEP TSO TSO TSO

Steven B.

Great Resource  :thumbsup:

To complete your list of MK3 sleeper numbers:
10500-10619 are Mk3 SLEP (SLeep Either Class with Pantry)
(10620-10645 were cancelled)
10646-10734 are Mk3 SLE (SLeep Either Class)
Further MK3 SLE were all so cancelled.
Royal Household Sleepers 2914 and 2915 were built using the body shells originally destined for cancelled SLE 10734-5
10734 was later converted from Royal coach 2914 in 2001


You are right, my understanding as a generalization is that, under BR, sleeper only trains (No seated coaches) tended to be pairs SLE and SLEP coaches with Full Brake vans like BG exclusively.
The P in SLEP being Pantry from which basic drinks and snacks could be dispensed by an attendant so no buffet car was needed. The SLE always operated with a SLEP which is why there are more SLEP's than SLE's.

This stayed unchanged until lounge car were introduced between 87-89.
RLO (Reception Lounge Open) which were linked to the sleepers by radio so one attendant could cover all the coaches. These were focused on the Anglo-Scottish Sleepers which were moved to the West Coast due to Electrification work on East coast. (The electrification would be used as an excuse to discontinue a large number of sleeper services. These services at the time were all sleeper only.

In 1992 a number of FO(T) (First Open Trolley) were converted for the same purpose, to cut down the number of attendants, in mixed seated/sleeper sets and allowed the number of attendants to be reduced.
Initially these were used on The Night Riviera and Cross Country Glasgow-Plymouth sleeper. When the Cross Country sleeper was discontinued they moved to the Fort William Sleeper

In mixed sets, unless it had a FO(T), the seated portion and sleeper portions would be self contained.
Air conditioned Brake coaches were in short supply so a BG would tend to be in the formation.

The standard BR Liveries being (with overlap):
BR Blue Grey - 2P-006-001 Introduction to 1985
BR Executive - (Not Proposed Currently) [InterCity Sleeper] 1985 to 1987
BR Swallow - 2P-006-002 [INTERCITY] 1987 to Privatization.

It seems that Hattons have stock of the First Great Western and Jarvis versions of these as they have photographs of them. See here (https://www.hattons.co.uk/541732/dapol_2p_006_005_mk_3_slep_sleeper_pantry_10612_in_first_great_western_fag_packet_livery/stockdetail.aspx), for example.