BACHMANN 2018/19 RELEASES
Steam Locomotives
SR N Class (REVISED TOOLING)
The popular N class model by Graham Farish has seen revisions to the tender tooling to provide a Next 18 DCC decoder socket and space for Digital Sound to be fitted. This year sees the much requested southern livery fitted with smoke deflectors for the first time.
372-934DS N Class No. 1823 in Southern Railway Lined Maunsell Green (DCC Sound)
Revised Tender Tooling to enable Digital Sound fitting – factory fitted to this model. First Southern Railway liveried N Class to be produced with smoke deflectors
372-935 N Class No. 31810 in weathered BR Black (Late Crest) livery
Revised Tender Tooling incorporating Next18 DCC decoder socket and pre-fitted speaker for ease of Digital Sound installation
Diesel Locomotives
Class 31 (REVISED TOOLING)
Benefiting from an upgraded chassis from the refurbished class 31, we are pleased to offer the original class 31 with the same specification for ease of Digital Sound fitting.
371-111A Class 31 No. D5616 in BR Green livery with Small Yellow Panels
Revised Body and Chassis Tooling incorporating Next18 DCC decoder socket and pre-fitted speaker for ease of Digital Sound installation
371-112A Class 31 No. 31131 in BR Blue livery
Revised Body and Chassis Tooling incorporating Next18 DCC decoder socket and pre-fitted speaker for ease of Digital Sound installation
371-113 Class 31 No. 97204 in BR RTC Grey & Red livery
Revised Body and Chassis Tooling incorporating Next18 DCC decoder socket and pre-fitted speaker for ease of Digital Sound installation
Class 47 LONG RANGE FUEL TANK VERSIONS (NEW TOOLING)
This year we are adding to our range of class 47 models and are now going to offer an all new 'extended range' class 47. During the 1990s a number of class 47/4s were fitted with long range fuel tanks and RCH jumper cables for working mail and parcels trains, becoming class 47/7. Those locomotives fitted with just the extended fuel tanks for passenger work become class 47/8. We will be producing these locomotives for the first time with a 'Crewe cut' buffer beam
372-260 Class 47 No. 47814 'Totnes Castle' in Virgin livery
New Body Tooling and Revised Chassis Tooling incorporating Next18 DCC decoder socket and pre-fitted speaker for ease of Digital Sound installation
372-261DS Class 47 No. 47727 'Rebecca' in Colas livery (DCC Sound)
New Body Tooling and Revised Chassis Tooling to enable Digital Sound fitting – factory fitted to this model.
Diesel Multiple Units
Class 251 Western Pullman (REVISED TOOLING TO CAB FRONT)
Metropolitan Cammell (Birmingham) built 2 x six-car Pullman Diesel Multiple Units (TOPS code Class 251) between 1959 and 1960. The two six-car units worked between London St. Pancras and Manchester on the Blue Pullman service. Following electrification of the West Coast Main Line, Pullman services between London and Manchester transferred to the new electric railway for which new coaches were built. The two units were transferred to the Western Region in 1966 where they worked alongside 3 x eight-car units. The former Midland Region units were fitted with cables on the cab front to enable the two units to be coupled together and they received a revised BR livery adopted for Pullman services of grey and blue (reversed corporate livery). All Class 251 units were withdrawn in May 1973.
371-742 Western Pullman 6-Car Unit in Grey/ Blue British Rail Pullman livery
Revised Tooling to allow the later Western Region version of the 6-car former Blue Pullman unit to be modelled, as working on the Western Region of British Rail (1966 to 1973)
Class 158
165 x two-car and 17 x three-car units were built between 1989 and 1992 for the Regional Railways division of British Rail by British Rail Engineering Ltd at Derby. They have seen service with a considerable number of operators including current operators Abellio ScotRail, Arriva Trains Wales, East Midlands Trains, GWR, Northern and South Western Railway. This will be an all new model benefitting from our research conducted on the 4mm scale model.
371-850 Class 158 2-Car DMU No. 158849 in Regional Railways livery
New Tooling
371-851 Class 158 2-Car DMU No. 158711 in ScotRail (Saltire) livery
New Tooling
Electric Multiple Units
Class 450
The Class 450 is a member of the Siemens Desiro family for which Graham Farish already produce the Class 350 variants. The Class 450 EMUs were built by Siemens for South West Trains. A total of 127 four-car units are currently in traffic on South Western Railway long distance routes in and out of London Waterloo (since 20th August 2017).
371-725 Class 450 4-Car EMU No. 450073 in South West Trains livery
New Tooling
Other significant Graham Farish (N Scale) introductions
Train Sets and Collectors Editions
370-160 Castle Pullman Digital Sound Train Set
First Digital Sound train set in N Scale
Locomotives
371-985A Class 64xx Pannier Tank No. 6424 GWR Green
371-988 Class 64xx Pannier Tank No. 6419 BR Lined Green Late Crest Weathered
372-828 E1 Class No. 2173 NER Lined Green
As 00 item
372-825 LNER J72 No. 2313 LNER Lined Black
As 00 item
372-826 LNER J72 No. 68733 BR Black Early Emblem
As 00 item
372-827 LNER J72 No. 68696 BR Black Late Crest
As 00 item
372-429 WD Austerity 2-8-0 No. 79250 'Major-General Mc Mullen' LMR Blue
371-034A Class 20 No. 20156 BR Railfreight Red Stripe
371-249 Class 47/0 No. 47018 BR Railfreight
371-825C Class 47/0 No. D1779 BR Green
371-285A Class 55 No. D9009 'Alycidon' BR Two-Tone Green Small Yellow Panel
371-288 Class 55 No. 55015 'Tulyar' BR Blue
First time a BR Blue liveried Deltic with white window surrounds has been modelled in N Scale
372-921 DP1 Light Blue & Cream Demonstrator
371-660 Class 57/6 No. 57603 'Tintagel Castle' GWR
371-887DS Class 108 3 Car DMU BR Green Speed Whiskers (DCC Sound)
371-885A Class 108 3 Car DMU BR Blue
371-888 Class 108 3 Car DMU BR White & Blue
371-432A Class 170/5 2 Car DMU No. 170501 London Midland
371-703 Class 350 4 Car EMU No. 350407 TransPennine Express
Coaches
374-163A BR Mk1 FK First Corridor Chocolate & Cream
374-064C BR Mk1 SK Second Corridor Chocolate & Cream
374-189C BR Mk1 BSK Brake Second Corridor Chocolate & Cream
374-082A BR Mk1 BCK Brake Second Corridor Chocolate & Cream
374-060D BR Mk1 SK Second Corridor Crimson & Cream
374-562 Hawksworth Corridor Composite BR Maroon
374-537 Hawksworth 2nd Class Corridor BR Maroon
374-512 Hawksworth BSK BR Maroon
374-586 Hawksworth Full Brake BR Maroon
Wagons
377-063 5 Plank Wagon Wooden Floor SR with Load
377-064 5 Plank Wagon Wooden Floor LMS with Load
377-476 China Clay Wagon BR Bauxite with Hood Weathered
377-429 12 Ton Southern Planked Ventilated Van BR Grey
377-430 12 Ton Southern 2+2 Planked Ventilated Van SR Brown
377-431 12 Ton Southern 2+2 Planked Ventilated Van LMS Grey
377-527C 20 Ton Brake Van BR Bauxite LNER Oxide
377-535A 20 Ton Brake Van BR Railfreight
377-375D 20 Ton Toad Brake Van GWR Grey
377-377A 20 Ton Toad Brake Van BR Bauxite (Early)
377-753 Midland 20 Ton Brake Van MR Grey
377-754 Midland 20 Ton Brake Van BR Grey (With Duckets) Weathered
377-255 16 Ton MCO Steel Mineral Wagon BR Grey Weathered
377-256 16 Ton Steel Mineral Wagon NCB Grey Weathered
377-281 27 Ton ZKV Steel Tippler Wagon BR Grey & Yellow Weathered
377-280 27 Ton Steel Tippler Wagon 'Lancashire Steel'
373-929 30 Ton Bogie Bolster Wagon LMS Grey with Load
373-903 46 Tonne glw HAA Hopper BR Railfreight
373-951B 46 Tonne glw HFA Hopper Mainline Weathered
373-627D 31 Ton OBA Open Wagon High Ends Plasmor Blockfreight
377-675B 100 Tonne JPA Cement Wagon VTG 'Lafarge Cement' Silver
377-676B 100 Tonne JPA Cement Wagon VTG 'Castle Cement' Grey
Accessories
36-565 Train Control and Transformer
Scenecraft (N Scale) ALL NEW MODELS
Scenecraft Buildings
42-0034 Depot Crew Room
42-0053 Servicing Point
42-0054 Depot Mess Room and Toilet
42-040 Fuelling Point
42-047 Hampton Hill Platelayers Hut
42-087 Bluebell Waiting Room 42-088 Sheffield Park Booking Office
42-089 Sheffield Park Station Canopy
42-090 Sheffield Park Waiting Room with Toilet 42-091 Sheffield Park Storeroom
42-093 Sheffield Park Footbridge
42-0056 Dutch Barn
42-202 Low Relief Front Terraced Houses
42-289 Low Relief Modular Mill Façade 42-290 Low Relief Modular Mill Entrance
42-511 Grounded Van Body
42-515 Greenhouse
42-580 Dry Stone Walling and Gate
Scenecraft Figures
379-322 Midland Pullman Stewards and Train Crew
Digital Control Systems
36-501 E-Z Command® Control Centre
Interested in the 350 in TPE livery which one though ? early or later
Nowt new for SR unless you count a retooled N class, I've already made and fitted my own smoke deflectors; why am I not surprised????????
so lets see...
curious about the castle pullman digital sound set....
steam: - southern n class? yes thanks! and a new LMR WD? yes thanks!
Diesel:- alycidon i will take! 3 car sound 108? aye why not! class 170, 350 in tpe express, 450 in south west trains and a 158 in regional? may take 2 of them!
nothing in coaches for me, may get a rake of maroon hawksworths i dont know....
and the bluebell range of buidings from sheffield park? perfect for my layout at home!
yes nothing for the southern unless you want to shell out for the dcc sound version N class, a couple of versions of the olive with / without sound would have been better , to run with the forthcoming birdcage stock
As I said on other thread,maroon Hawksworths good but I'll take the chocolate and cream SK. :)
I do note the 370-160 Castle Pullman Digital Sound Train Set
First Digital Sound train set in N Scale, which will be interesting to see.
I welcome the n class in green but as it looks like it comes sound fitted maybe not for me.
Not much steam or transition era but then look back to last year with new coaches and locos announced. We can't have everything each year.
One day maybe dapol will produce the west country :hmmm:
All
Appears to be be a bit of a consolidation year I welcome the new 158 tooling but the re-liveries and modern era wagons are a big let down second year in row no new toolings for wagons when they already have chassis the OTA is on paper a no brainer also no new class 37 re-liveries is a massive own goal given the popularity and appeal of these locos.
We can hope at least one of the big model shops does a 37 in a different livery from the list only the ZKV wagon in Dutch will tempt me from this range
Dave
A few of my predictions came to fruit:
White/blue 108 DMU
"Crewe cut" 47s
Maroon Hawksworth carriages
However pleasantly surprised that a TransPennine Express 350/4 EMU makes it on the list.
Also pleased that you can model Sheffield Park station :claphappy:
I think it's interesting that Farish are to produce three-car Class 108s. , might they be tempted to do the same for 101s in the future? I have a 108 three-car already, but it's a little out of place for my location, so 101 would be better. That said, it's not a gripe, I think it's actually quite positive.
Alycidon is a welcome addition (I think will find it's way onto my layout at the head of the Queen of Scots) along with D1779.
377-476 China Clay Hood would seem to be the previously Kernow exclusive model.
The WD 2-8-0 in LMR Blue is interesting as well; is this the same version that was previously in the LMR set? Do we think it will sell that well?
I think it's a reasonably balanced set of releases. That said, as Lydgate opined, you can please some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time........
I would love a Midland Pullman but at £399-99 for the set Ive got no chance unless I rob a bank ,When you think that we will get our Pendolinos for less than that it makes you think .I cant very well ask the family to club together now to buy one for next Christmas that wouldnt be very fair .
They have allready said I can order the Black BR Collett Goods for my Birthday in March . I cant keep on begging .I will have to be happy with my cheapo version of the Blue Pullman with paper sides and Minitrix coach chassis pulled buy a Japaneese power chassis .
I doubt very much if I will ever buy any more new locos from Farish or Dapol as in my situation they have priced themselves out of the market even though the detailing is excelent the cheapest R R P for a loco from Farish is now £94-95 for the little Panier .Yes I know you can buy cheaper from the big box shifters.
I will just get the family to buy any GWR locos from Union Mills where you get a good solid loco without all the trimmings but will last me for the rest of my life thats for sure.
Bob Tidbury
Quote from: Carmont on January 07, 2018, 12:29:37 PM
I think it's interesting that Farish are to produce three-car Class 108s. , might they be tempted to do the same for 101s in the future?
They did 3-car 108s in green and blue originally, in 2008, IIRC, and 2-car 108s in green (2008, 2009 and 2010), blue (2008, 2009, 2010), and blue-grey (2008).
Then they did 3-car 101s originally in green, blue and blue grey, in 2011, alongside 2-cars in green and blue in 2011, and all have been 2-cars since then. The 3 car 101 in green is especially rare to find second hand.
I think it was mainly to do with inflation / price rises that they dropped the centre car. Plus the "modern" liveries like blue grey on the 108 and NSE on the 101 didn't have the centre cars.
HTH
Bob
371-288 Class 55 No. 55015 'Tulyar' BR Blue
Arg! So close, but 55015 has to be in two-tone green for me. A dearly missed friend was kind enough to let me drive (ok, play with) a 7 1/4 inch version which he would have been livid to see in blue!
That said, its nice for others that this model is going to be "First time a BR Blue liveried Deltic with white window surrounds has been modelled in N Scale". I will have to stick to my orginal plan of re-numbering the current "Pinza" model one day.
Skyline2uk
Ok so what will I have to save up for out of my meagre earnings :hmmm: :hmmm: :hmmm:
371-112A Class 31 No. 31131 in BR Blue livery
371-850 Class 158 2-Car DMU No. 158849 in Regional Railways livery - mmm would've been better in NSE
371-034A Class 20 No. 20156 BR Railfreight Red Stripe
371-288 Class 55 No. 55015 'Tulyar' BR Blue
377-476 China Clay Wagon BR Bauxite with Hood Weathered
377-281 27 Ton ZKV Steel Tippler Wagon BR Grey & Yellow Weathered
That's about it really, oh and I'd love to have 371-742 Western Pullman 6-Car Unit in Grey/ Blue British Rail Pullman livery if my lottery numbers come up ;) ;)
Cheers
Neal.
I believe that very few, if any, on the list will be in stores this year or next.
There's very little on the list that appeals to me, so MBH can look forward to 2028 (the year I predict they will be in stores,) being a year when we can afford a holiday in addition to all my model railways wants. :thumbsup:
Even the few items that appeal won't all translate in to purchases:
371-660 Class 57/6 No. 57603 'Tintagel Castle' GWR livery :hmmm: - maybe.
371-725 Class 450 4-Car EMU :thumbsup: No. 450073 in South West Trains livery :thumbsdown: - I'll get a cheapo 350 and bash it into a 450 in South Western Railway livery.
372-261DS Class 47 No. 47727 'Rebecca' in Colas livery :thumbsup: :thumbsup: DCC Sound factory fitted to this model :thumbsdown: - I dunno, I dunno, I'm not yet convinced by sound.
372-429 WD Austerity 2-8-0 No. 79250 'Major-General Mc Mullen' LMR Blue :hmmm: - a weak maybe.
377-675B 100 Tonne JPA Cement Wagon VTG 'Lafarge Cement' Silver :thumbsup: - rude not to as I have two of 377-675.
Quote from: Lindi on January 07, 2018, 12:37:41 PM
Quote from: Carmont on January 07, 2018, 12:29:37 PM
I think it's interesting that Farish are to produce three-car Class 108s. , might they be tempted to do the same for 101s in the future? I have a 108 three-car already, but it's a little out of place for my location, so 101 would be better. That said, it's not a gripe, I think it's actually quite positive.
Farish have produced a three car Class 101 in the past (2011 IIRC)
Indeed, I should have clarified in the way that Bob G has. The 101 hasn't been available for a long time as a three-car (I have one, 371-512, but paid a price reflective of it's rarity).
My credit card just breathed a sigh of relief. Nothing for me to see here.
Quote from: Carmont on January 07, 2018, 01:36:03 PM
Indeed, I should have clarified in the way that Bob G has. The 101 hasn't been available for a long time as a three-car (I have one, 371-512, but paid a price reflective of it's rarity).
How things change. I have a reasonable fleet of 3 car 101s from when Hattons were knocking them out at "Multiple Units Don't Sell" prices, much as the 350s can be had now. 8)
Personally, I don't think you can have too many :thumbsup:
I'm surprised there is no dynamic lines 158, maybe a central trains, arriva and GWR one will come next year. Besides a RR 158 my money will be going to another Dapol HST this year if they ever release those! The DCC Sound fitted trainset is interesting, it might do very well but at £800 its really only a Christmas present for the former modeler from the rather wealthy family. I'd have thought at around half the price a sound jinty or 08 with a couple of coaches/wagons would be a better way to approach a DCC sound starter set but we shall see!
Quote from: G_N_E_R on January 07, 2018, 01:56:13 PM
I'm surprised there is no dynamic lines 158, maybe a central trains, arriva and GWR one will come next year. Besides a RR 158 my money will be going to another Dapol HST this year if they ever release those! The DCC Sound fitted trainset is interesting, it might do very well but at £800 its really only a Christmas present for the former modeler from the rather wealthy family. I'd have thought at around half the price a sound jinty or 08 with a couple of coaches/wagons would be a better way to approach a DCC sound starter set but we shall see!
Can you point me to the price list, I may be being a bit dim but I can't find it.
Thanks
Roy
Quote from: Roy L S on January 07, 2018, 02:08:24 PM
Quote from: G_N_E_R on January 07, 2018, 01:56:13 PM
I'm surprised there is no dynamic lines 158, maybe a central trains, arriva and GWR one will come next year. Besides a RR 158 my money will be going to another Dapol HST this year if they ever release those! The DCC Sound fitted trainset is interesting, it might do very well but at £800 its really only a Christmas present for the former modeler from the rather wealthy family. I'd have thought at around half the price a sound jinty or 08 with a couple of coaches/wagons would be a better way to approach a DCC sound starter set but we shall see!
Can you point me to the price list, I may be being a bit dim but I can't find it.
Thanks
Roy
The sound fitted trainset is in 00, as Hattons list it for £800 it would suggest the RRP is slightly more.
Cl158, good choice, but where are all the modern liveries?
Mr Warr, you're on point !!!
Again no new Cl150 liveries!!!
Cl350 in TPE is a must have for me.
Regards,
John P
Already seeing that I will be doing overtime this year, class 31s and long range 47s will be keeping the postman busy, no retooled electric locomotives, the class 90 really needs doing, but apparently they don't sell (that why the shelves are full of 87s and 90s still.........sarcasm)
Scotrail livery seems a strange choice for one of the wo 158s - this was the livery they did most recently on the old tooling. There are a number of liveries (e.g. the current Arriva Wales, the new Northern livery) which haven't been done at all yet so would seem more obvious choices.
I already have a fleet of 158s in 3 varied Scottish liveries for Allanbrae, not to mention 2 versions each of a 170 and 156. The Barbie 158 is a Vinyl - albeit not one of Adam's. So sadly No call for any of this. But where are the Thompson coaches already promised?
Meanwhile for my various multi period Scottish scenes, I have a Clayton on order from DJM and a 320 in Saltire from Revolution, hoping they garner enough support.
Quote from: nobby on January 07, 2018, 11:59:40 AM
Interested in the 350 in TPE livery which one though ? early or later
It's the new grey livery I understand. £230 though. Could have 3 LM ones and some vinyls!
hi njee20
thanks for that, make sense but at £230 i better start saving or i just do like you say ,might even get the swt one when its in the bargain bin.
I hope the 158 & 170 are going to be DCC ready. Are the existing proposed 31s & 170s still going ahead or do these announcements replace the non appearance of last years announced models I wonder :hmmm:
Glad I snaffled an original BP. 180 quid well spent :thumbsup:
800 quid for a train Set?! :o I could easily be swayed more towards continental models. Minitrix and Fleischmann offerings are looking very attractive right now, or even convert to HO :help: yes Märklin and Trix are expensive but they exude quality.
Think I need to lie down...
Quote from: ChrisWV10 on January 07, 2018, 04:23:56 PM
I hope the 158 & 170 are going to be DCC ready. Are the existing proposed 31s & 170s still going ahead or do these announcements replace the non appearance of last years announced models I wonder :hmmm:
i imagine with them being new tooling, they will be dcc ready with next8 decoder sockets in.
how easy they are to fit sound in is another question!
Quote from: ChrisWV10 on January 07, 2018, 04:23:56 PM
I hope the 158 & 170 are going to be DCC ready. Are the existing proposed 31s & 170s still going ahead or do these announcements replace the non appearance of last years announced models I wonder :hmmm:
The 158s are a new tooling, so sure to be DCC ready - probably Next18 with a speaker included as that seems to be the way Bachmannis going.
The 170s look to be a re-run of the existing model, so probably not DCC ready. Apart from the shunters (03/04/08/14), this must be one of the last pre-DCC designs still in use.
No doubt all will be revealed with Bachman update their website. There have clearly been changes of plan with models announced previously but not released yet, e.g. the modified 31s are shown on the website as 6-pin, but the re-run of the original-style 31s are described as having a Next-18 chassis developed for the revised one, so clearly the website is wrong to still show 6-pin.
It remains to be seen whether they are updating the electronics of any of the others, such as the class 57s, Deltics, and the previously announced 47s.
Well I am happy with the announcement,
One of the 3 missing gaps in my colas fleet filled! Just needs the 70 and Dapol to do the 67 pair now!
Also the Virgin 47, GWR 57
Really looking forward to the Scotrail 158
Cheers
Callum
I'll pass up the chance to own a South West Trains 450 unit (£240 estimated from Hattons)
http://www.hattons.co.uk/337674/Graham_Farish_371_725_Class_450_Desiro_4_car_EMU_450073_in_South_West_Trains_livery_Price_is_estimate/StockDetail.aspx (http://www.hattons.co.uk/337674/Graham_Farish_371_725_Class_450_Desiro_4_car_EMU_450073_in_South_West_Trains_livery_Price_is_estimate/StockDetail.aspx)
I paid £265 early bird price for Revolution Trains' 9-car Pendolino - looks value for money nowadays!
If you stand back from the padding the only real new model here is the 158
I would not call the 47 new tooling, more revised
Changes to PCBs and some internal molds for speakers are straight forward
In summary only one new model the 158 - poor showing, although it is of interest, the concern is there will unlikely be any change out of £200 for a DCC ready model by the time it hits the retailers
Note Hattons estimate of £179 to draw in pre-orders therefore likely to be close to £200 by the time to usual delays in delivery happen!
???
Would have loved a suburban DMU such as the Class 117 to have been announced seen as OO guys are getting one.
I wonder if Dapol will do them as they already do the Class 121/122's...
Cheers,
Mark
I'm happy to hear Farish's latest announcements regards developing and adding to the range.
The modern image items will be well received by me and will be bought over time from a variety of retailers.
As regards the pricing structure and what retail prices will eventually be I think recent history suggests the following will continue to happen;
- niche liveries like Network Rail, Colas and DRS tend to sell out quickly at RRP - 15% so buy them quick.
new tooling/new technology like sound, equally sell quickly as above
the mainstream will have an initial sales surge then reality kicks in - too much stock - not enough turnover - specials begin - 2017 purchases included 37's and 47's at £70-80, 350's at £75, A2's at £75, Mk1's at £18, NSE set at £150 - all substantively below RRP and the usual discounted prices.
My strategy now is to identify what I would like and if I feel that it will sell out quickly like the Class 40 digital sound model then preorder asap.
Remainder of my purchases I simply wait and see what the market is doing as most of the releases are in stock for months and in some cases years before exhausted, and the major retailers often have sales/specials on most of the year.
N gauge has in my experience always been a reasonably costly hobby both in terms of the individual prices of models and the temptations put before us in the sheer variety now put before us, long may this continue as I would rather have the situation as it is today as opposed to the 80's when I started.
[/list]
no 47/8 in intercity swallow is strange??? or a res 47???
anyway I've pre ordered the 158 and rtc class 31 and i may get sound chips for them too
no wagons or coaches I want
Tim
Quote from: Lindi on January 07, 2018, 07:12:12 PM
Hattons guess at the prices of items Farish haven't announced an RRP for. I would assume that these are the expected RRP - 15%
372-261DS Class 47 No. 47727 'Rebecca' in Colas livery (DCC Sound) £219
371-850 Class 158 2-Car DMU No. 158849 in Regional Railways livery £179
371-851 Class 158 2-Car DMU No. 158711 in ScotRail (Saltire) livery £179
371-725 Class 450 4-Car EMU No. 450073 in South West Trains livery £240
372-828 E1 Class No. 2173 NER Lined Green £111
372-825 LNER J72 No. 2313 LNER Lined Black £90
372-826 LNER J72 No. 68733 BR Black Early Emblem £90
372-827 LNER J72 No. 68696 BR Black Late Crest £90
I wonder, actually, if these are RRP as well. The 3 car 108 is £220RRP. Take the 15% off (£33), then that drops to £187, for three cars. It would seem a bit much for the 158 to be retailing at £8 less for only two cars, albeit latest up-to-date tooling, bells, whistles, etc.
I could be wrong, but I have to say I hope I'm right.......
I suspect that where Hattons have had to guess prices to facilitate pre-orders because Farish haven't fixed them yet they will over estimate rather than under so as to mitigate risk of cancellations.
A green 31 at £129,95 with Next 18 socket and plug and play sound capability actually doesn't look so bad. A max 15% discount brings it down to around £110 which I think for what you get is pretty reasonable. The same can be said for the similar 47 and yes, a state of the art 158 for maybe £160 discounted ditto.
If a weathered 64xx is your thing then around the £89 for a current spec DCC ready loco, coreless motor and all probably is too.
However, with regard to the Desiro 450, if the chassis has not been upgraded and it still has a can motor and needs 3 chips to fully DCC it I personally cannot understand how Bachmann see a RRP of £269.95 as realistic given the challenge selling through the first run of Desiros. That would make a max discounted price of just shy of £230. It may be where they need to pitch it, but I just can't see many selling.
Roy
There's normally a premium for factory weathering so summat doesn't look right with the 64xx pricing :hmmm:
Quote from: newportnobby on January 07, 2018, 08:56:35 PM
There's normally a premium for factory weathering so summat doesn't look right with the 64xx pricing :hmmm:
I agree, but if that is the price and it's nearly as good as the 00 version I'll selling my factory fresh version.
:laughabovepost:
Skyline2uk
Quote from: Lindi on January 07, 2018, 09:43:07 PM
Quote from: Tank on January 07, 2018, 11:40:51 AM
BACHMANN 2018/19 RELEASES
371-288 Class 55 No. 55015 'Tulyar' BR Blue
First time a BR Blue liveried Deltic with white window surrounds has been modelled in N Scale
If only they'd looked at their past products before making such a statement (maybe they thought this model was N Gauge!)
Graham Farish 8416 - 55009 Alcydon
(http://thefarishshed.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/ResizeDSC_0320.jpg)
Thought it was a bit of a sweeping statement - I modelled a white cab Deltic back in the day with a Lima and some Tipp-Ex.
I was wonderign about that as well, although only released for a short period originally a batch were re-released in 1999 prior to Bachmann taking over...
Quote from: Lindi on January 07, 2018, 09:43:07 PM
Quote from: Tank on January 07, 2018, 11:40:51 AM
BACHMANN 2018/19 RELEASES
371-288 Class 55 No. 55015 'Tulyar' BR Blue
First time a BR Blue liveried Deltic with white window surrounds has been modelled in N Scale
If only they'd looked at their past products before making such a statement (maybe they thought this model was N Gauge!)
Graham Farish 8416 - 55009 Alcydon
(http://thefarishshed.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/ResizeDSC_0320.jpg)
Quote from: Lindi on January 07, 2018, 09:43:07 PM
Quote from: Tank on January 07, 2018, 11:40:51 AM
BACHMANN 2018/19 RELEASES
371-288 Class 55 No. 55015 'Tulyar' BR Blue
First time a BR Blue liveried Deltic with white window surrounds has been modelled in N Scale
If only they'd looked at their past products before making such a statement (maybe they thought this model was N Gauge!)
Graham Farish 8416 - 55009 Alcydon
This is an ancient model dating from 1984. Not the same tooling, and really not comparable - I can't see there's any valid criticism of Bachmann here - they can't be expected to not reproduce models that were last done 33 years ago!
Cheers,
Alan
Very excited by the WR Blue Pullman set. I remember when my dad and I first started in orribly oversized we had the Triang version in grey/blue and I have wanted an N Gauge one ever since I got back into the hobby :bounce:
The maroon Hawksworths and a sound fitted Class 31 are also very tempting :D
All in all a very nice New Year's announcement!
I'm also very excited about the Western Pullman. Even at £380!
Also tempted by 31s in BR Blue and RTC.
Nothing for me I'm afraid, no FGW/GWR 158 or Mk3 sleepers. For some reason they are producing a Class 57 GWR which is a waste of time with no coaches to go with it. They did the same when they produced the FGW version, the only good side to that was they did not sell very well and I got one brand new from a box shifter for £55. If the same thing happens again I will buy one, if not my money is going on the Dapol DRS 68 and GWR HST.
Geoff
I suppose if I was going to be totally self indulgent and extravagant , I could be tempted by the reissued "blue pullman", even a used one in original Nanking blue. When I started on the Western in 1971 I used to see them in this new livery. However I have already splashed out on Voyagers in Virgin and Cross Country. And built up an HST in the short lived Virgin 2+5 Cross Country format. Minimal use for them but I like them. There are more important and useful things like the promised Thompson coaches I really do want. And if the Mk 3 sleepers came out in current livery along with the MK 2s to match and a Class 73, all to go with the Dapol 67 on new style, that really would grab me. Along with a Cravens (105) in green for Portpatrick Town. In my dreams.
Agree the GWR 57 seems an odd choice given the complete lack of complementary rolling stock. Trying to milk the tooling I guess, as there aren't many other variants of the non-Delner fitted 57s.
Given Dapol haven't done the tooling for the SLEP variant I'm surprised Farish haven't tapped into that market. I'm sure there's a market for newer Caledonian Sleeper liveries (the blue "First" one and the newest teal livery) as well as Dynamic Lines FGW or GWR ones. Given how much the older purple Caledonian Sleeper ones seem to go for, and the fact they've got the mk2 in their arsenal as well I'd have thought that would have been a winner.
Still perplexed by their calling the 450 a new tooling. I did wonder if they'd sorted electrical continuity between coaches, but they're calling the First TPE one a re-livery, so I'd presume it's exactly the same product. I'm not convinced the removal of the pantograph justifies a "new tooling" moniker.
Quote from: njee20 on January 08, 2018, 10:49:28 AM
Still perplexed by their calling the 450 a new tooling. I did wonder if they'd sorted electrical continuity between coaches, but they're calling the First TPE one a re-livery, so I'd presume it's exactly the same product. I'm not convinced the removal of the pantograph justifies a "new tooling" moniker.
It may be that they are changing the chassis tooling to accept Next18?
Cheers,
Alan
It's possible. Would be an odd choice though. IMO one of the reasons the 350 didn't sell better was that you need 3 decoders to convert it to DCC.
Changing to Next18 actually worsens that due to a lack of cheaper Next18 decoders.
What would be good would be developing some sort of electrical connectivity between coaches (perhaps in conjunction with Next18 and a speaker slot) to enable you to convert one with a single decoder. Given the amount of space in the motor coach it's an obvious candidate for a sound conversion, particularly given the distinctive noise they make.
However... surely if you're doing that you do the TPE one as well as the SWT 450, however they're calling the 450 a "new tooling" and the TPE one a "re-livery", which suggests to me they're whipping the pantograph off the 450, filling a few tiny holes in the pantograph well and calling it a new tooling!
At >£230 I predict a bit of a lemon, sadly, which really isn't what is needed.
Quote from: njee20 on January 08, 2018, 11:51:27 AM
What would be good would be developing some sort of electrical connectivity between coaches (perhaps in conjunction with Next18 and a speaker slot) to enable you to convert one with a single decoder.
In an ideal world - but the additional cost of tooling might make the unit more expensive than buying an extra cheap decoder or 2, so it's swings and roundabouts.
They do clearly want to move as much to DCC sound and Next 18 compatable as possible - clearly DCC sound is the next cash cow for them. Just hope they don't ruin the 47 and 31 chassis for it.
Cheers,
Alan
But surely the cheapest tooling is to stick with what they have? Although of course changing to Next18 is just a new circuit board, or rather two new circuit boards in the different vehicles. From their perspective of course any change in tooling is more expensive than forcing the customer to buy two additional decoders, but obviously they have to look on a macro scale at the change in the market perception to the model if they undertook the tooling change. Does the Blue Pullman (or CEP or any other MU) have electrical connectivity between coaches?
However, my point was more that any of those things (with the possible exception of modification to include speakers/reduce decoder requirements) is a very tenuous use of "new tooling" and appears not to be being applied to the other 350 they're releasing, which suggests to me they're doing nothing whatsoever, and releasing a product with a history of poor sales at a significantly higher price point, whilst stock of older ones still remains (although one wonders if sales will now pick up).
Basically I'm being a bit of a pedant.
Quote from: njee20 on January 08, 2018, 12:08:21 PM
But surely the cheapest tooling is to stick with what they have? Although of course changing to Next18 is just a new circuit board, or rather two new circuit boards in the different vehicles. From their perspective of course any change in tooling is more expensive than forcing the customer to buy two additional decoders, but obviously they have to look on a macro scale at the change in the market perception to the model if they undertook the tooling change. Does the Blue Pullman (or CEP or any other MU) have electrical connectivity between coaches?
Given that the Next18 decoders seem larger than NEM651, in some cases (particularly like this unit, where the drive needs to be fairly compact not to block out too many windows) the retooling may end up being more significant that just PCBs. It'll be interesting to see what they do with the J72 - my bet will be they won't be able to get a Next18 in it.
It's also what worries me a smidgen about their retooling of 47s and 31s - to get that speaker in as well may mean a complete drive retool, use of the coreless motor? If so these new ones won't run well with older ones if the class 40 top speed is anything to go by. DCC sound is the bandwagon now being jumped on to make more money.
No UK EMU or DMU has through wiring apart from Hornby/Arnold Belle, and the forthcoming Pendolino. For me it's not necessary (not DCC user) as pickup from one car is plenty enough, and if I did ever DCC I guess dual decoders is the only option for most. Given secondhand cheap decoders can be around £10, whilst undesirable, it's not a massive extra expense - worst for Dapol units that have a central power car and therefore need 2 extra decoders for the ends lights. But would a retooled unit to incorporate this cost less than £10 more? Seems doubtful IMHO.
Quote from: njee20 on January 08, 2018, 12:08:21 PM
However, my point was more that any of those things (with the possible exception of modification to include speakers/reduce decoder requirements) is a very tenuous use of "new tooling" and appears not to be being applied to the other 350 they're releasing, which suggests to me they're doing nothing whatsoever, and releasing a product with a history of poor sales at a significantly higher price point, whilst stock of older ones still remains (although one wonders if sales will now pick up).
Undoubtedly - though given that the 450 has no pantographs and 3rd rail collector shoes, I'd expect the tooling here to be different so it didn't leave holes where a pantograph would be, and new bogies to accommodate the shoes. Granted, it's not a massive tooling change, so your point has validity, but it is a change, so technically they are not wrong in their claims. They'd get hammered if they just repainted the 350 and left a load of gaping attachment holes on the roof where the pantograph would have been, and didn't bother with 3rd rail collectors.
Same could be said for some of the versions of diesel locos in the past - when they released the 37/4 it was a 'new tooling' even though that basically meant it was only a modified body tool from the 37/0.
In terms of the 350/450 sales, I don't have much to add, primarily because they aren't units of interest to me. Although perhaps that's the entire point.........!
Cheers,
Alan
They've already got shoe beams on the 350/1 LM variant, so it's literally a handful of holes. I take your point that technically that is a tooling change, but still...
The motor is in one of the centre coaches, so like the Dapol Voyager you do need 2 additional decoders (three in total for a 4-car unit), which I'm sure is a contributory factor in the poor sales. I certainly don't have a real issue with it, I use cheap function only decoders, and have nine 350s. I think. Maybe only 8 now. They come and go. But I know a lot of people have commented on this as a factor, which I can understand.
Re: re-tooling locos to accommodate speakers etc I'd be concerned about loss of mass too. The old (non-DCC friendly) Dapol 66s were great haulers, then they removed a load of material to make way for a decoder and they're now nowhere near as good, indeed verging on inadequate I'd say. No idea what the 47 is like, but would be a shame if they went on to compromise locos like the 60, which can still manage prototypical trains with ease.
Quote from: njee20 on January 08, 2018, 12:48:59 PM
But I know a lot of people have commented on this as a factor, which I can understand.
Unfortunately, folk assume that a retooled model to do this would cost the same as the existing model - which it almost certainly wouldn't, which is where their argument falls down.
Quote from: njee20 on January 08, 2018, 12:48:59 PM
Re: re-tooling locos to accommodate speakers etc I'd be concerned about loss of mass too. The old (non-DCC friendly) Dapol 66s were great haulers, then they removed a load of material to make way for a decoder and they're now nowhere near as good, indeed verging on inadequate I'd say. No idea what the 47 is like, but would be a shame if they went on to compromise locos like the 60, which can still manage prototypical trains with ease.
To be fair, Dapol's retool of the 66 was done poorly - the loss of weight was mostly due to the removal of a mass of metal around the bogie pivots, which did not seem remotely necessary to accommodate DCC (as Farish have demonstrated) - it was just a poor design, much like the plastic chassied class 73s of similar time period.
Cheers,
Alan
Oh wow SWT 450! I was gonna do a small 00 layout just for these, now I don't have to!
New tooling needed for different underframe arrangement i think...
Would be nice to see a 360 at some point - same tooling as 350, just remove gangways and offer 5 car versions!
Quote from: Simondward on January 08, 2018, 01:02:49 PM
Would be nice to see a 360 at some point - same tooling as 350, just remove gangways and offer 5 car versions!
I.e. not the same tooling, as the ends would have to be retooled to remove the gangway. Plus, they'd be unlikely to modify existing tooling for 350 making it unusable, so this would be a full new tool of at least one the end cars.....
Cheers,
Alan
Quote from: Dr Al on January 08, 2018, 12:55:15 PM
Quote from: njee20 on January 08, 2018, 12:48:59 PM
But I know a lot of people have commented on this as a factor, which I can understand.
Unfortunately, folk assume that a retooled model to do this would cost the same as the existing model - which it almost certainly wouldn't, which is where their argument falls down.
My comment wasn't in relation to the new one specifically, just that it was an oft levelled complaint against buying the 'old' one. I think anyone assuming a new model, even with no change to the tooling (as for the TPE variant), was going to be a comparable price was being somewhat naive - Farish prices have all increased markedly in a comparatively short time. £260 RRP for the 350 isn't a bad price in the context of other offerings, but it's a significant step up from the price the market has got used to on the discounted LM ones. Farish have certainly got an uphill battle on their hands.
Agree re: the 360, it's a bit like saying they could 'just' do a 444 by making the coaches 23m and changing to doors at the end of the coaches.
Quote from: njee20 on January 08, 2018, 01:34:05 PM
£260 RRP for the 350 isn't a bad price in the context of other offerings, but it's a significant step up from the price the market has got used to on the discounted LM ones. Farish have certainly got an uphill battle on their hands.
Yes, I agree. Some with more money than care will not be bothered, but they might struggle to shift a large number. Though £260 is RRP, meaning it'll be £221 with the normal 15% discount. Still expensive for a re-run of existing tooling.
Quote from: njee20 on January 08, 2018, 01:34:05 PM
Agree re: the 360, it's a bit like saying they could 'just' do a 444 by making the coaches 23m and changing to doors at the end of the coaches.
Haha, precisely.
Cheers,
Alan
A fairly quiet year for me from Farish but the looks of things. The Maroon Hawksworths will be welcome but that is about it.
It could get quite expensive for me when these things start hitting the shops.
I want a GWR Castle in the post-war G *Crest* W livery as per the Castle Pullman set - at least I'll be able to recover some money by selling a couple of the Pullman coaches I already own, the track and probably the DCC controller.
Maroon Hawksworth coaches are what I've been waiting for since the Hawksworths were announced.
The revised livery Blue Pullman looks so good and is more appropriate to my Western Region leanings than the original Midland Pullman.
I would rather have had a White/Blue class 101 DMU but I don't think I can resist the class 108 in that livery.
In the update on RM Web it states that the GWR Railcar is in production now. I look forward to seeing it but I'm not sure I feel the need to buy one as I've got a few of the old Poole and China built ones.
Overall, I'm in the fortunate position that there's plenty for me this year even though I wasn't expecting much.
I'll certainly have a 158 but I'm not getting too excited!
After all, whatever happened to the 319 "announced" and also photographed in the 2016/2017 catalogue?
Alec.
Ultimately I expected nothing, and I've got exactly what I wanted!
Would have a 158 if they did the right livery, but they're not at the moment. Would quite like a rake of Lafarge JPAs, but not at >£30 each. Literally nothing else in there I can see myself buying.
More money for Revolution and other products!
Am I alone in hoping maybe Farish will use the new tooling (if it's possible) of the 8 car Western Pullman to do a full Nanking Blue set at some point as I don't really want the blue/grey with custard ends :no:
Quote from: newportnobby on January 08, 2018, 02:10:26 PM
Am I alone in hoping maybe Farish will use the new tooling (if it's possible) of the 8 car Western Pullman to do a full Nanking Blue set at some point as I don't really want the blue/grey with custard ends :no:
They are not doing the 8-car sets, they are still the 6-car Midland sets.
In 1966, the MR Pullman sets were transferred to the WR. They were fitted with MU jumpers so they could be run as a single 12-car set (usually on the Bristol Pullman services). They were repainted into reverse Blue/Grey colours around 1970 IIRC. The 8-car Western Region sets never received MU cables but were repainted around the same time.
I don't think Farish are likely to do the 8-car sets as there are too many differences between them and the existing 6-car sets. The 6-car sets were formed DMBF MFK TF TF MFK DMBF wheeras the 8-car sets were formed DMBS MS TFK TF TF TFK MS DMBS. Only the TF (Trailer First) was common between the 6 and 8-car sets, all the other vehicles were different.
Producing the 6-car sets after their transfer to the Western is a fairly easy change as it is just a slight change to the front ends. Doing the 8-car sets would involve tooling up 3 complete new bodyshells (DMBS, MS and TFK). then you consider the existing BP only has 3 unique vehicles, you can see it would cost almost as much to produce the 8-car sets as it would the 6-cars, there is very little commonality between them.
:oopssign:
I should have read it more closely.
Still, that'll save me a pot of money and I can get 3 locos for the price
Quote from: Dr Al on January 08, 2018, 12:32:24 PM
No UK EMU or DMU has through wiring apart from Hornby/Arnold Belle, and the forthcoming Pendolino.
Hi
As far as I am aware the Pendolino has a decoder in each of the end cars so doesn't have through wiring.
From the revolution trains web site
DCC sound factory fitted in both power cars will be available for an additional £95 per set with sounds from Legomanbiffo – there will be two DCC
decoders with two speakers (one in each driving car)Cheers
Paul
The Pendolino has through wiring purely for pick up (we wanted to just use one decoder originally but it became too complex for the coupler connections).
I completely understand why people dislike price increases, but comparing the discounted costs of a 350 produced in 2012 (?) with a new production run is misleading - they are being heavily discounted to clear stock but a new production run in new liveries will cost significantly more than it did 5-6 years ago). The major price increase of a re-run are not typically someone making more money but simply increased assembly costs (it depends of course on how many runs a model is amortised over).
DCC sound - fitting in a Next 18 socket/decoder and speaker will remove some mass but it shouldn't be too detrimental for most locos. I don't know what margin Bachman got on the £60 price increase for the DCC sound fitted 40 but I can't imagine that it is a massive cash cow for them (certainly not compared to the costs of new tooling to fit sound), so I suspect it is them finally realising the demand for factory sound fitted N gauge exists (see how quickly the 40, Castle and DMU sold). I haven't looked at our figures for the split recently but at one point we were selling about 40% DCC sound fitted items.
Cheers, Mike
To be fair I'm not sure if anyone is saying that, I wholly agree that anyone expecting that is sorely misguided, was merely hypothesising as to the reason the old production run didn't sell well, and how, unless they've changed that, I wonder if a similar fate will befall these new ones, particularly the TPE ones. I expect the SWT ones to appeal to a sufficiently different group of people.
I hope it does sell well for Farish though, it's a great model and a shame (for them) they're being punted out cheap!
I think Bachmann have been quite shrewd on their sound pricing - at £60 I think that's an absolute no brainer, whilst Dapol's £100+ is more akin to an aftermarket upgrade and I'd be less keen. Would be great to see sound fitting rolled out more widely, and one assumes that's a likelihood given the popularity of previous models.
Quote from: njee20 on January 08, 2018, 11:51:27 AM
It's possible. Would be an odd choice though. IMO one of the reasons the 350 didn't sell better was that you need 3 decoders to convert it to DCC.
Changing to Next18 actually worsens that due to a lack of cheaper Next18 decoders.
Unless they leave the 6-pin decoders in the driving cars for the lights, and put a Next-18 in the motor car allowing sound? Doesn't seem that likely, but they have done at least one 00 Gauge DMU with an 8pin in the driving car and a 6-pin in the trailer, as I recall.
Quote from: red_death on January 08, 2018, 03:59:54 PM
I completely understand why people dislike price increases, but comparing the discounted costs of a 350 produced in 2012 (?) with a new production run is misleading - they are being heavily discounted to clear stock but a new production run in new liveries will cost significantly more than it did 5-6 years ago). The major price increase of a re-run are not typically someone making more money but simply increased assembly costs (it depends of course on how many runs a model is amortised over).
I guess with such large price increases, the reason this is aired is that this is a model that's fully tooled, and therefore there's minimal tooling cost to spread over a new run (some pad print tooling for livery I guess, plus any maintenance cost on existing tooling), but there seems little evidence Bachmann acknowledge this by using any margin there to temper price increases a bit.
Quote from: red_death on January 08, 2018, 03:59:54 PM
DCC sound - fitting in a Next 18 socket/decoder and speaker will remove some mass but it shouldn't be too detrimental for most locos. I don't know what margin Bachman got on the £60 price increase for the DCC sound fitted 40 but I can't imagine that it is a massive cash cow for them (certainly not compared to the costs of new tooling to fit sound), so I suspect it is them finally realising the demand for factory sound fitted N gauge exists (see how quickly the 40, Castle and DMU sold)
I think that's the cash cow point - less that the margin is much higher, rather that they can shift the stock
much quicker than the standard fit non-DCC sound models. The Castle and 40 have shifted most or all of their (presumably 1008 as in the past?) production units already; plenty of stocks of standard models about. Add to that the strategy of only fitting a minority with sound means that some of those sounds sales will be to transplant into the other livery variants. They've realised it's a good way to up turnover of stock.
Cheers,
Alan
Quote from: Skyline2uk on January 07, 2018, 01:02:10 PM
371-288 Class 55 No. 55015 'Tulyar' BR Blue
Arg! So close, but 55015 has to be in two-tone green for me. A dearly missed friend was kind enough to let me drive (ok, play with) a 7 1/4 inch version which he would have been livid to see in blue!
That said, its nice for others that this model is going to be "First time a BR Blue liveried Deltic with white window surrounds has been modelled in N Scale". I will have to stick to my orginal plan of re-numbering the current "Pinza" model one day.
Skyline2uk
Not sure whether the assertion about the FP Deltic has been corrected elsewhere yet, but Poole-based Graham Farish did 55009 Alycidon.
Quote from: Dr Al on January 08, 2018, 04:46:39 PM
I guess with such large price increases, the reason this is aired is that this is a model that's fully tooled, and therefore there's minimal tooling cost to spread over a new run (some pad print tooling for livery I guess, plus any maintenance cost on existing tooling), but there seems little evidence Bachmann acknowledge this by using any margin there to temper price increases a bit.
Which is why I said that the tooling amortisation is important - if you amortise it over more than one run (which I suspect Bachmann do - why would they not given that they intend to produce multiple runs of things) then the tooling cost would be the same for the second run as the first. Unless you know how many runs the tooling is amortised over then you can't assume that a re-run has no tooling cost.
For example:
Tooling cost = £100k
Amortised over say 3 runs = £33k per run vs amortised over 5 runs = £20k per run (the actual amount doesn't matter as the point is the charge to each production run will be the same for the production runs that are included in the amortisation period).
Of course you could be right that Bachmann amortise over a single run, but that wouldn't be normal for a company of their size.
Quote from: Dr Al on January 08, 2018, 04:46:39 PM
I think that's the cash cow point - less that the margin is much higher, rather that they can shift the stock
That isn't really a cash cow though if you are not getting a higher margin (or possibly a lower margin!). I don't think people can blame them for wanting to shift stock as quickly as possible!
I have to say, I hope the sound fitting doesn't become too widespread. I'd rather it was kept similar to DCC, in that models are produced ready for sound, rather than it becoming all or nothing.
I fully accept the chip and the speaker can be removed and sold on, but that's not really the point. The outlay has to be found first of all to purchase the model. In tht regard, I'm glad the blue 40 was the sound fitted one.
Je suis pro choix
Is the class 31 difficult to add sound to currently ? pre this release ?
Next18 decoder, whats the advantage over the older type ? apart from having sound on board ?
You can tell i'm interested but not done this yet :)
Cheers
Craig
Quote from: Dalek on January 08, 2018, 06:35:13 PM
Is the class 31 difficult to add sound to currently ? pre this release ?
Next18 decoder, whats the advantage over the older type ? apart from having sound on board ?
You can tell i'm interested but not done this yet :)
Next-18 decoders have more functions than 6-pin ones, so there are options for things like control over specific lights, etc.
The existing Class 31 has a 6-pin socket so sound would be a case of hard-wiring, fitting a speaker and possibly having to cut the chassis to make it all fit.
Quote from: davidinyork on January 08, 2018, 06:39:41 PM
Quote from: Dalek on January 08, 2018, 06:35:13 PM
Is the class 31 difficult to add sound to currently ? pre this release ?
Next18 decoder, whats the advantage over the older type ? apart from having sound on board ?
You can tell i'm interested but not done this yet :)
Next-18 decoders have more functions than 6-pin ones, so there are options for things like control over specific lights, etc.
The existing Class 31 has a 6-pin socket so sound would be a case of hard-wiring, fitting a speaker and possibly having to cut the chassis to make it all fit.
Thanks David.
I see you can also get sort of "intelligent" sound that works without pressing a multitude of buttons to play various sounds based on how you are driving, idel, revs up etc. I much prefer that idea, is that a Next-18 only thing or can you get this with other sound decoders ? Do all decoders use the same function keys for the same functions ? Horn, brake squeal etc ?
Sorry for going a bit off topic :sorrysign:
Craig
All sound chips will have a load of sounds that just work all the time - engine starting, revs increasing/decreasing, brake sound etc. You then have the other 'ad hoc' noises accessed via functions buttons; horns, couplers, doors etc. These are not standard function keys, but can usually be remapped.
Quote from: njee20 on January 08, 2018, 12:48:59 PM
Re: re-tooling locos to accommodate speakers etc I'd be concerned about loss of mass too. The old (non-DCC friendly) Dapol 66s were great haulers, then they removed a load of material to make way for a decoder and they're now nowhere near as good, indeed verging on inadequate I'd say. No idea what the 47 is like, but would be a shame if they went on to compromise locos like the 60, which can still manage prototypical trains with ease.
They will invent traction tyres to improve adhesion, though seem to work well on my Kato locomotives and TGVs/Eurostars with 16 cars. Think I should get my coat and hat........
Just read this entire thread and found it very interesting indeed. Diesel isn't my thing but it's really cool to see all the different options available now, especially compared to what I remember in OO as a kid. Probably just increased my diesel knowledge 500% as well.
Overall though, as a newbie in N, I think it's good to see the manufacturers investing in new models, even if some are only minor tweaks. It hasn't always been that way. I also understand the gripes about increased costs of DCC with sound. Those parts cost pence to make but the integration of it all has a cost which increases the price to everyone, not good if you don't especially want sound or are a DC guy. Just being DCC and sound ready means tooling changes so it has to add cost to the base DC running unit.
As for all those numbers you guys are on about, I doff my virtual cap to you. I'm still learning and really I just play trains compared to the real modellers amongst you all.
Having said diesel isn't my thing, that Midland Pullman set looks handsome. Anyone know the going rate for a kidney? :laugh:
Quote from: davidinyork on January 08, 2018, 06:39:41 PM
Quote from: Dalek on January 08, 2018, 06:35:13 PM
Is the class 31 difficult to add sound to currently ? pre this release ?
Next18 decoder, whats the advantage over the older type ? apart from having sound on board ?
You can tell i'm interested but not done this yet :)
Next-18 decoders have more functions than 6-pin ones, so there are options for things like control over specific lights, etc.
The existing Class 31 has a 6-pin socket so sound would be a case of hard-wiring, fitting a speaker and possibly having to cut the chassis to make it all fit.
The Zimo 6 pin plug and play sound chip may not be that hard to fit in a 31 although the microcube speaker may need to be located in one of the cabs. I have done a 24 this way and to be honest with just a touch of dirt on the windows you would never know.
Roy
Roy
Quote from: red_death on January 08, 2018, 05:00:54 PM
Of course you could be right that Bachmann amortise over a single run, but that wouldn't be normal for a company of their size.
It's interesting to consider, and there's a fair amount of info out there to hypothesise with.
Assuming Dapol's tooling costs are the same (unreasonable??) - they have essentially paid off the tooling in a few runs (whereby terminology here needs tightened - lets call a "run" is one livery application on a tooling) and have said so - they did so with the Ivatt tanks and 45xx's, and offered later runs at lower prices, accepting and stating openly that there were more modern locos about. This does rather imply that the 4 initial liveries (4 'runs') paid off the tooling. [and as an aside, on the later ones some parts were actually retooled, notabily the wheels, so they must have been able to absorb that cost whilst still charging less in real terms for the model].
So that does bring us back to Bachmann -
if 3 or 4 livery applications pays tooling off, then basically the first 'batch' of liveries delivered must mostly cover it, and that's what I was really meaning, but perhaps was excessively sloppy with terminology. This would imply Bachmann need to sell between 3024 and 4032 (assuming a run is still the 1008 it was reported to be in the past) to pay the tooling cost. This seems credible - if it were double that, 8 runs say, then absolutely none of their tooling would be fully paid off yet (seems highly unlikely?). So whilst the 350 may be a less good example (though there's been 3 runs already, but clearly many unsold), there are plenty others whereby the tooling simply must be paid for:
Duchess - at least 7 different runs already now
Jubilee - at least 8 runs now
37/0 - at least 6 (and here a big proportion of the tooling (i.e. chassis) is shared over other variants e.g. 37/4)
47/0 - at least 7 (and here a big proportion of the tooling (i.e. chassis) is shared over other variants e.g. 47/4, 47/7, and some parts from 57)
04 shunter - at least 5
and I'm sure there are plenty others if some analysis was done. There's been no obvious drop (or hold) in prices on later runs of these after the first (or second) batch as Dapol did.
Whilst it sounds like it's just price grumbling, it's actually not so much - this is a real problem that folk in OO are starting to flag up more and more, and it's relevant to N too, is that models that have clearly had tooling paid off that are still being sold at high prices (like the Hornby Railroad range and the classic being the perennial Hornby 0-4-0T that now sells for £35, and has been around and re-run countless times, and is available in a train set for only £10 more) - these would be perfect way to help try to attract folk to the hobby, as current prices are certainly turning now them away - there are a fair few OOers now grumbling at this.
It was the same when Bachmann were churning out old Poole designs - the tooling was certainly largely paid for there!
Alas, this is but capitalism, sell for as much as you can get away with - but I fear it will actually ultimately have a
real detrimental affect on the uptake of the hobby in the medium to long term.
That will hurt everyone.
Quote from: red_death on January 08, 2018, 05:00:54 PM
That isn't really a cash cow though if you are not getting a higher margin (or possibly a lower margin!). I don't think people can blame them for wanting to shift stock as quickly as possible!
Whichever wording the sentiment is the same - they've basically liquidated that stock unbelievably fast as a result of it being DCC sound - 2 or 3 weeks and you can already barely find one. Certainly a way to quickly get the cash back in.
Cheers,
Alan
Quote from: Dr Al on January 08, 2018, 11:53:20 PM
Quote from: red_death on January 08, 2018, 05:00:54 PM
Of course you could be right that Bachmann amortise over a single run, but that wouldn't be normal for a company of their size.
It's interesting to consider, and there's a fair amount of info out there to hypothesise with.
Assuming Dapol's tooling costs are the same (unreasonable??) - they have essentially paid off the tooling in a few runs (whereby terminology here needs tightened - lets call a "run" is one livery application on a tooling) and have said so - they did so with the Ivatt tanks and 45xx's, and offered later runs at lower prices, accepting and stating openly that there were more modern locos about. This does rather imply that the 4 initial liveries (4 'runs') paid off the tooling. [and as an aside, on the later ones some parts were actually retooled, notabily the wheels, so they must have been able to absorb that cost whilst still charging less in real terms for the model].
So that does bring us back to Bachmann - if 3 or 4 livery applications pays tooling off, then basically the first 'batch' of liveries delivered must mostly cover it, and that's what I was really meaning, but perhaps was excessively sloppy with terminology. This would imply Bachmann need to sell between 3024 and 4032 (assuming a run is still the 1008 it was reported to be in the past) to pay the tooling cost. This seems credible - if it were double that, 8 runs say, then absolutely none of their tooling would be fully paid off yet (seems highly unlikely?). So whilst the 350 may be a less good example (though there's been 3 runs already, but clearly many unsold), there are plenty others whereby the tooling simply must be paid for:
Duchess - at least 7 different runs already now
Jubilee - at least 8 runs now
37/0 - at least 6 (and here a big proportion of the tooling (i.e. chassis) is shared over other variants e.g. 37/4)
47/0 - at least 7 (and here a big proportion of the tooling (i.e. chassis) is shared over other variants e.g. 47/4, 47/7, and some parts from 57)
04 shunter - at least 5
and I'm sure there are plenty others if some analysis was done. There's been no obvious drop (or hold) in prices on later runs of these after the first (or second) batch as Dapol did.
Whilst it sounds like it's just price grumbling, it's actually not so much - this is a real problem that folk in OO are starting to flag up more and more, and it's relevant to N too, is that models that have clearly had tooling paid off that are still being sold at high prices (like the Hornby Railroad range and the classic being the perennial Hornby 0-4-0T that now sells for £35, and has been around and re-run countless times, and is available in a train set for only £10 more) - these would be perfect way to help try to attract folk to the hobby, as current prices are certainly turning now them away - there are a fair few OOers now grumbling at this.
It was the same when Bachmann were churning out old Poole designs - the tooling was certainly largely paid for there!
Alas, this is but capitalism, sell for as much as you can get away with - but I fear it will actually ultimately have a real detrimental affect on the uptake of the hobby in the medium to long term.
That will hurt everyone.
Quote from: red_death on January 08, 2018, 05:00:54 PM
That isn't really a cash cow though if you are not getting a higher margin (or possibly a lower margin!). I don't think people can blame them for wanting to shift stock as quickly as possible!
Whichever wording the sentiment is the same - they've basically liquidated that stock unbelievably fast as a result of it being DCC sound - 2 or 3 weeks and you can already barely find one. Certainly a way to quickly get the cash back in.
Cheers,
Alan
A quote from Sir John Trelawny "God forbid we be thought cheap". i.e. If you give them it cheap once they will expect it always to be cheap and you will struggle to get a descent return on your future products that have much higher production costs.
Quote from: Snowwolflair on January 09, 2018, 12:58:33 AM
A quote from Sir John Trelawny "God forbid we be thought cheap". i.e. If you give them it cheap once they will expect it always to be cheap and you will struggle to get a descent return on your future products that have much higher production costs.
I don't think there's any dispute that prices have had to rise because of increasing production costs - that's all well known and less of the point - the point is more about the future, why long tooled models that have had many runs have the same RRP as new toolings etc. It's becoming a fairly big talking point in other scales.
Having said that, the price level has been broadly similar right through the transition from English production to supposedly cheaper Chinese production (which is now not so cheap) - and I wouldn't have said any of these was "cheap". Given they cut costs moving to China at some point in the past 20 years they've clearly made big profits from their range, even if the squeeze is on now - likely in the 2000-2007 is period when they were punting old tool Poole derived models.
I do wonder what the prices would need to reach for a significant number to say "I'm not buying that, it's too much". £200 a loco? £300? more? Clearly some already are at that point - it's a lot if you are on average UK salary of ~£22,000 after tax......
Manufacturers know their market though - is primarily older, with much more significant disposable income than that, and that's what they are playing to. One wonders though, once much of that generation has passed, in 20 years say, where we'll be - I think manufacturers might start to see a significant decline in their fortunes. Hornby already seem to be making some big mistakes and costing themselves big money as a result.
DCC sound'll be dirt cheap by then I'd hope though! I'd expect it to be built in as standard with a switch to turn it off for those who don't fancy it!
Cheers,
Alan
Quote from: Dr Al on January 08, 2018, 11:53:20 PMAlas, this is but capitalism, sell for as much as you can get away with
Nope, price it at what you think the market will sustain.
You, the proletariat, will desire something. A capitalist will provide it, at a price. If he gets the price wrong he will fail. if you cant afford his price you will both fail. The answer(-not) is a state subsidy !
The answer may be in crowd (aka proletariat) funding but the best model (it is early days) is yet to be designed.
Quote from: Roy L S on January 08, 2018, 10:17:38 PM
Quote from: davidinyork on January 08, 2018, 06:39:41 PM
Quote from: Dalek on January 08, 2018, 06:35:13 PM
Is the class 31 difficult to add sound to currently ? pre this release ?
Next18 decoder, whats the advantage over the older type ? apart from having sound on board ?
You can tell i'm interested but not done this yet :)
Next-18 decoders have more functions than 6-pin ones, so there are options for things like control over specific lights, etc.
The existing Class 31 has a 6-pin socket so sound would be a case of hard-wiring, fitting a speaker and possibly having to cut the chassis to make it all fit.
The Zimo 6 pin plug and play sound chip may not be that hard to fit in a 31 although the microcube speaker may need to be located in one of the cabs. I have done a 24 this way and to be honest with just a touch of dirt on the windows you would never know.
Roy
Roy
Thanks for the info Roy, would you happen to have a picture showing fitment per chance ?
Cheers
Craig
Quote from: Dr Al on January 08, 2018, 11:53:20 PM
Assuming Dapol's tooling costs are the same (unreasonable??) - they have essentially paid off the tooling in a few runs (whereby terminology here needs tightened - lets call a "run" is one livery application on a tooling) and have said so - they did so with the Ivatt tanks and 45xx's, and offered later runs at lower prices, accepting and stating openly that there were more modern locos about. This does rather imply that the 4 initial liveries (4 'runs') paid off the tooling. [and as an aside, on the later ones some parts were actually retooled, notabily the wheels, so they must have been able to absorb that cost whilst still charging less in real terms for the model].
Whether Dapol's tooling costs are the same is irrelevant if you don't know how many models the tooling is amortised over or whether their business model is the same (it clearly isn't - Farish have their own factory and produce relatively large runs in a few liveries/numbers vs Dapol contract out and produce lower total production runs in more liveries/numbers) .
It really is that simple and information that you don't have - and without it you can't make those sorts of comparisons. You can't even assume that the amortisation is the same for every model from Bachmann as they may apply amortisation over a set number or they may vary that number depending on their expectation of how that model will sell ie you would expect to sell many more 37/47/66 than 350s so you might amortise the production across 3000 350s vs 10000 37s.
Quote from: Dr Al on January 08, 2018, 11:53:20 PM
there are plenty others whereby the tooling simply must be paid for:
Duchess - at least 7 different runs already now
Jubilee - at least 8 runs now
37/0 - at least 6 (and here a big proportion of the tooling (i.e. chassis) is shared over other variants e.g. 37/4)
47/0 - at least 7 (and here a big proportion of the tooling (i.e. chassis) is shared over other variants e.g. 47/4, 47/7, and some parts from 57)
04 shunter - at least 5
You have no way of knowing that the tooling must have already been paid for unless you know the exact details of Bachmann's accounting policy!
Quote from: red_death on January 09, 2018, 10:41:32 AM
Whether Dapol's tooling costs are the same is irrelevant if you don't know how many models the tooling is amortised over or whether their business model is the same (it clearly isn't - Farish have their own factory and produce relatively large runs in a few liveries/numbers vs Dapol contract out and produce lower total production runs in more liveries/numbers) .
It really is that simple and information that you don't have - and without it you can't make those sorts of comparisons. You can't even assume that the amortisation is the same for every model from Bachmann as they may apply amortisation over a set number or they may vary that number depending on their expectation of how that model will sell ie you would expect to sell many more 37/47/66 than 350s so you might amortise the production across 3000 350s vs 10000 37s.
I can make plenty of
hypotheses though, given the numbers that are available (a fair few), plus some degree of logic. Sure, may be wrong, but I've seen no evidence to the contrary so far - and it's *definitely true* for those stated in OO from Hornby.
Given that Farish have their own factory and Dapol 'contract out' that puts another middle man (contractor) between us and the models - which means it's fair to believe Dapol's costs must be higher, or do you know otherwise?
Dapol's runs are well known to often be smaller - often 250, so Dapol's number are entirely relevant as an immediate comparison to Bachmann's 1008 runs. Dapol said the tooling was paid on the Ivatts, that was after 4 'runs' - so that basically means they have paid it off on as few as 1000 models, or as many as 4000 if we take 250 and 1000 as the bounds of a possible production run. Why would Dapol's tooling costs be significantly different to Bachmann - surely it's reasonable to assume they are comparable and of the same order? Therefore, if they pay off their costs on a smaller or similar sized batch, then the questions remain about how Bachmann do it, given their prices are comparable or higher.
Of course it's not that "simple" either, as the tooling cost of a specific model will be very varied given the number of common components they can re-use from existing tooled models.....gears, motors, wheels, wheel components such as axles and insulators, small detail parts like buffers, handrail knobs, coupling hooks, vacuum pipes, valve gear components, bogies - many many of these are shared across a lot of models meaning the apparent costs will be less as they already have those parts. Bachmann do this a lot more than Dapol (having stripped many of both, this is abundantly clear!).
Quote from: red_death on January 09, 2018, 10:41:32 AM
You have no way of knowing that the tooling must have already been paid for unless you know the exact details of Bachmann's accounting policy!
Of course, but one can apply some thought to how it may be - if none of the tooling has been paid off as you imply then surely they will have a huge hole in their bank account - that's just plain! Where's the up front money to tool coming from otherwise? 'Profits' from another model that hasn't paid its tooling off either? Loans? If so then we are basically paying Bachmann's loan interest....lol. Just doesn't seem credible - my impression remains that the first batch (batch, not run) pays off these, unless you can provide more evidence from the industry to the contrary.
The pertinent point remains - when the tooling is paid off (whenever that is is not actually so relevant), will prices follow that like Dapol did? Or will they do a Hornby and milk it for everything they can? I can afford it, but I don't think the latter is great for the hobby as the OO guys and girls are now starting to voice.
Cheers,
Alan
Quote from: Dr Al on January 09, 2018, 12:21:59 PM
The pertinent point remains - when the tooling is paid off (whenever that is is not actually so relevant), will prices follow that like Dapol did? Or will they do a Hornby and milk it for everything they can? I can afford it, but I don't think the latter is great for the hobby as the OO guys and girls are now starting to voice.
If you look at Hornby HSTs, they are now significantly more expensive than the first batches using the new tooling were when that was introduced 8 or 10 years ago. I'm sure that the much-discussed extra production costs are a factor, but given the size of the increase (when compared to other models) it seems unlikely that this is the whole picture. The RRP of the only power car pair in the 2018 range is £299.99, plus £34.99 each for the trailers (and those use a very old tooling). This does suggest that they might be inflating the prices as high as they think they can go. Not sure what it's doing to the number of units they sell, but I haven't bought any recent ones and I don't imagine I am alone.
In this year's announcements they include another IEP in GW livery, with the power cars and three intermediate trailers as two separate packs. The total RRP comes to £449.98. Granted, this is a new model so there will still be tooling costs, but is this really sustainable for a 5-car multiple unit?
Quote from: Dr Al on January 09, 2018, 12:21:59 PM
Given that Farish have their own factory and Dapol 'contract out' that puts another middle man (contractor) between us and the models - which means it's fair to believe Dapol's costs must be higher, or do you know otherwise?
It doesn't make any difference in terms of the number of intermediaries - Farish/Bachmann Europe pay Kader, Dapol pay whichever factory they use. My point was that different factories have different advantages/disadvantages in terms of tooling/production sizes/livery options etc.
Quote from: Dr Al on January 09, 2018, 12:21:59 PM
Dapol's runs are well known to often be smaller - often 250, so Dapol's number are entirely relevant as an immediate comparison to Bachmann's 1008 runs. Dapol said the tooling was paid on the Ivatts, that was after 4 'runs' - so that basically means they have paid it off on as few as 1000 models, or as many as 4000 if we take 250 and 1000 as the bounds of a possible production run.
Bachmann produced a minimum of 3 x 1008 ie 3000 per production run (though I think I've seen that they have switched to 4 x 512 on some more recent runs ie 2000 per production run). So you already have a problem with your figures unless you mean Dapol produced 3000 in one production run. You don't even know how many Ivatts Dapol produced as they have had variable production run numbers. The difference in paying off the tooling on a run of 1000 vs 4000 is massive!
Quote from: Dr Al on January 09, 2018, 12:21:59 PM
Why would Dapol's tooling costs be significantly different to Bachmann - surely it's reasonable to assume they are comparable and of the same order?
I never said that they were different - I don't know and neither do you. I do know that there is significant variation in tooling quotes from different factories.
Quote from: Dr Al on January 09, 2018, 12:21:59 PMOf course it's not that "simple" either, as the tooling cost of a specific model will be very varied given the number of common components they can re-use from existing tooled models.....gears, motors, wheels, wheel components such as axles and insulators, small detail parts like buffers, handrail knobs, coupling hooks, vacuum pipes, valve gear components, bogies - many many of these are shared across a lot of models meaning the apparent costs will be less as they already have those parts. Bachmann do this a lot more than Dapol (having stripped many of both, this is abundantly clear!).
Even where the component is superficially identical it will often be from a completely different set of tooling (though from the same design). The factories want to be moulding a complete set of parts for one model not hunting around for various parts from multiple sets of tooling. If the common parts are from one complete set of tooling eg all the parts for a bogie then the factory might use existing tooling though even that can be difficult to convince them.
Quote from: Dr Al on January 09, 2018, 12:21:59 PM
if none of the tooling has been paid off as you imply then surely they will have a huge hole in their bank account - that's just plain! Where's the up front money to tool coming from otherwise? 'Profits' from another model that hasn't paid its tooling off either? Loans? If so then we are basically paying Bachmann's loan interest....lol. Just doesn't seem credible - my impression remains that the first batch (batch, not run) pays off these, unless you can provide more evidence from the industry to the contrary.
Oh come on, now you're just being argumentative for the sake of it. I never said that "none of the tooling had been paid off" - I said you don't know how much or at what rate it is paid off. It would be unusual to charge the whole tooling to a single production run if you were planning to rerun the tooling. The money for tooling (unless you are crowdfunding) comes from the monies invested by shareholders (that includes retained profits, bank loans, intergroup loans etc).
Quote from: Dr Al on January 09, 2018, 12:21:59 PMThe pertinent point remains - when the tooling is paid off (whenever that is is not actually so relevant), will prices follow that like Dapol did? Or will they do a Hornby and milk it for everything they can? I can afford it, but I don't think the latter is great for the hobby as the OO guys and girls are now starting to voice.
If you are right then it isn't pertinent as they will have made little return on their first runs and are making their returns on the subsequent runs - it is exactly what you would expect. Quite why Dapol reduced their price is beyond me unless they were looking to sell greater volume at lower margins...
Quote from: davidinyork on January 09, 2018, 12:43:37 PM
If you look at Hornby HSTs, they are now significantly more expensive than the first batches using the new tooling were when that was introduced 8 or 10 years ago. I'm sure that the much-discussed extra production costs are a factor, but given the size of the increase (when compared to other models) it seems unlikely that this is the whole picture. The RRP of the only power car pair in the 2018 range is £299.99, plus £34.99 each for the trailers (and those use a very old tooling). This does suggest that they might be inflating the prices as high as they think they can go. Not sure what it's doing to the number of units they sell, but I haven't bought any recent ones and I don't imagine I am alone.
Agreed. If I can add another from fully personal experience:
Just before switching to N in 1996 I bought a Hornby 0-4-0ST Smokey Joe.. (forgive me, I was young). It cost £17.50, and the price had just gone up. This was English production (so high cost), from a tooling that had been in use for at least a decade prior. Using an inflation calculator, this model should now cost around £30.98.
Current RRP for same model - no tooling change, produced in supposedly cheaper (maybe not now) China - £40.98. What accounts therefore for the extra 33%? Moreover you could buy a train set with a similar old tool 0-4-0, 3 wagons, track and a controller for little more just before xmas. Is it any wonder there are grumblings and noises of feeling ripped off now at some of these prices?
These are the important models for the likes of the hobby, even if not to modellers (the 0-4-0RT - rocket-tank.......) as its these that new entrants to the hobby are more likely to start with.
Cheers,
Alan
PS I think we're done with the discussion of amortisation of tooling - you don't know the rates and neither do I, though I do know that you are trying to compare business models which are not the same (that is from talking to both manufacturers). In the same way that you can't compare our business model to Farish.
That is all without talking about price setting (ie philosophy of what price you set things at) or trader margins (which vary substantially).
Quote from: red_death on January 09, 2018, 01:10:02 PM
Bachmann produced a minimum of 3 x 1008 ie 3000 per production run (though I think I've seen that they have switched to 4 x 512 on some more recent runs ie 2000 per production run). So you already have a problem with your figures unless you mean Dapol produced 3000 in one production run. You don't even know how many Ivatts Dapol produced as they have had variable production run numbers. The difference in paying off the tooling on a run of 1000 vs 4000 is massive!
I don't see that as a problem - I gave a range - if Dapol made 250 of each Ivatt livery then they made 1000 units on the first batch that paid the tooling off minimum, or if they made 1000 of each livery then they paid it off with 4000 units. Not sure the problem there - it's well known that Dapol did 250 of each of 8 66s, so it's reasonable to assume 250 was the minimum Ivatt of each livery.
Quote from: red_death on January 09, 2018, 01:10:02 PM
I never said that they were different - I don't know and neither do you.
Then it's fair to use them as a ballpark baseline then....
Quote from: Dr Al on January 09, 2018, 12:21:59 PM
Even where the component is superficially identical it will often be from a completely different set of tooling (though from the same design). The factories want to be moulding a complete set of parts for one model not hunting around for various parts from multiple sets of tooling. If the common parts are from one complete set of tooling eg all the parts for a bogie then the factory might use existing tooling though even that can be difficult to convince them.
It's definitely the case that they do this - tooling parts are common and you can see this often in the mould lines (and mosre often the flaws) and very fine detail that is identical from model even if the prototype is different. I've pulled so many of these apart that it's absolutely clear. Things like the Duchess front bogie too - why the heck would they retool that new and do it wrong!? (it's the wrong wheelbase, as it's one from a Jubilee)....there is absolutely no mechanical reason to do so as you can fit a scale bogie with no modification....
Quote from: red_death on January 09, 2018, 01:10:02 PM
Oh come on, now you're just being argumentative for the sake of it. I never said that "none of the tooling had been paid off" - I said you don't know how much or at what rate it is paid off. It would be unusual to charge the whole tooling to a single production run if you were planning to rerun the tooling. The money for tooling (unless you are crowdfunding) comes from the monies invested by shareholders (that includes retained profits, bank loans, intergroup loans etc).
No, I just question how it's done, nothing argumentative. You did imply that many of the toolings may not be paid off - there've barely been 10000 37s produced for example.....
Quote from: red_death on January 09, 2018, 01:10:02 PM
Quite why Dapol reduced their price is beyond me unless they were looking to sell greater volume at lower margins...
Or they were actually just being fair and honest that it was an older style model and the tooling was paid, so the customer can see a little bit of that saving?
Cheers,
Alan
Quote from: red_death on January 09, 2018, 01:16:40 PM
PS I think we're done with the discussion of amortisation of tooling - you don't know the rates and neither do I, though I do know that you are trying to compare business models which are not the same (that is from talking to both manufacturers). In the same way that you can't compare our business model to Farish.
That is all without talking about price setting (ie philosophy of what price you set things at) or trader margins (which vary substantially).
Fair enough - in terms of price setting though, I still really don't like that "max 15% discount" that Bachmann impose - that nulls competition. I'm sure it's legal, but it feels very not so!
Cheers,
Alan
Having read all the above posts about prices I have come to the conclusion that on my pension I wont ever be buying another brand new Farish or Dapol loco .The only new ones I will buy are Union Mills Models that I know will last me for the rest of my life and IF they do go wrong Colin Heard will be able to repair them for a modest charge without the hasle of where and who to send it to ,in fact I have just ordered from all of my family for my birthday present in March a Black Collett Goods before he runs out he said he did another run before Christmas and theve nearly all sold allready .Yes its nice for all you people who can afford the new models with all the bells and whistles but I personaly just want to relax and watch my trains running without worrying how long they will last and if its got this bit that might fall off or whether the light will still work after a week or two .the Collett costs £75 and as I said it will last me for the rest of my life . Sorry Farish and Dapol you have just lost a customer but I know that wont bother either firm there will be plenty who can afford these inflated prices .
Sorry if I have ranted on but that is just how I feel at the moment ,if I win the lottery I might change my mind ,but I doubt that .
Bob Tidbury
In the nicest possible sense Alan, what is your point? We seem to have strayed so far into extrapolated examples from other manufacturers and scales I'm genuinely not sure.
Whilst one could argue it laudable for Dapol to drop the prices on a model once the tooling is amortised it's a pretty daft business model IMO. You have a market prepared to pay a price, why on earth would you not take a bigger margin? If the model isn't selling then perhaps drop the price, but I'd say the amortisation of the tooling cost should not influence the price of a single run of a model.
People moan about the cost of the Hornby HST, but the GWR ones sold well, so people aren't that fussed clearly! There seem to be a noisy minority of people who complain about prices, and IMO it's more commonly other factors than price alone which influence purchasing for many.
That said... Farish are extracting the Michael a little with the price of some of their older tooled DMUs.
its amazing how quickly the prices have risen over, so much so that if the guys at revolution trains were to do crowdfunding now for the Pendolino train i wonder how much it would be , and if (big if) Rapido decide to rerun them in a few years because of new liveries and or customer demand what price then would you be looking at . i will continue to support / buy model trains but i am getting much more choosy over the models i buy. (unless someone decides to make the class 375 electrostar in the future)
The saving grace (depending on your outlook) is that second hand values are rising in line with new prices (unsurprisingly), and frequently surpass new values on 'high demand' items.
I'm happy taking a punt on some things as they can almost always be sold on for a minimal cost, or even a profit down the line.
Quote from: njee20 on January 09, 2018, 02:28:34 PM
People moan about the cost of the Hornby HST, but the GWR ones sold well, so people aren't that fussed clearly! There seem to be a noisy minority of people who complain about prices, and IMO it's more commonly other factors than price alone which influence purchasing for many.
Probably because it was a limited production run. None of the others they have done recently have sold quickly - they've all hung around in the shops for ages.
Quote from: njee20 on January 09, 2018, 02:28:34 PM
In the nicest possible sense Alan, what is your point?
Really, the point is why manufacturers aren't doing a little on tooled models to dampen the significant hikes - and particularly for the long term good of the hobby (and therefore their business). Admittedly, maybe this is less the place of N (though Farish N used to have cheap starter sets which no longer exist) and more OO, hence the examples, but still relevant as N has to attract new modellers, even if that's more likely to be from other scales.
Also, how sustainable are these price hikes is the other emerging point from others posts (wasn't so much my original point) - we see evidence already of folk being unable e.g. Bob above. In recent times we've seen the RRPs increase of really large levels - e.g. last year a Duchess RRP was £144ish, now it's £170 - a 15% rise in 1 year. Have our pensions, or wage risen that much? I'd guess not. Ok, costs are rising*, but given retailers are not allowed by Bachmann to discount arbitrarily, there is zero competition, these are the prices we are stuck with, and the key question is then: at what point do they start to become unsustainable. There's tinges that this is already the case for some as you can see on this thread - "I am getting much more choosy over the model I buy", "I have come to the conclusion that on my pension I wont ever be buying another brand new Farish or Dapol loco.", "Farish are extracting the Michael a little with the price of some of their older tooled DMUs".....
...even being able to afford these, I do find myself implicitly feeling the same... £25 for a Mk1 when I bought the same models a few years ago for £13 a pop? Glad I did!
But to return to the core point - it's the health and long term future of the hobby, which has to bring in new interest, that concerns me, and I just fear fewer will get into model railways if there aren't good priced items to lure them in and get them hooked (which we are!). Time will tell on that one.
Quote from: njee20 on January 09, 2018, 02:28:34 PM
Whilst one could argue it laudable for Dapol to drop the prices on a model once the tooling is amortised it's a pretty daft business model IMO. You have a market prepared to pay a price, why on earth would you not take a bigger margin?
It shifts the stock quick (which it did) and tempts those who otherwise wouldn't buy - I am example of this buying a new 45xx because it was cheap, and while I knew it wasn't a perfect loco, I was willing to accept that and improve myself at that price. I wouldn't have bought it otherwise if the price had been in line with other rises. So it's not necessarily a daft business model at all, as you may have a different and bigger market willing to buy a lesser price.
Quote from: njee20 on January 09, 2018, 02:28:34 PM
That said... Farish are extracting the Michael a little with the price of some of their older tooled DMUs.
Which ones?
Cheers,
Alan
*they must be getting pretty marginal now, as both Dapol and Hornby now have some of their production brought back to UK....
Quote from: njee20 on January 09, 2018, 02:48:06 PM
The saving grace (depending on your outlook) is that second hand values are rising in line with new prices (unsurprisingly), and frequently surpass new values on 'high demand' items.
I'm happy taking a punt on some things as they can almost always be sold on for a minimal cost, or even a profit down the line.
This is true, and it definitely helps if you are buying new. Though it does lead to a rise in speculative purchases - one wonders how many DCC Sound 40s will start reappearing for sale with a whack of a premium on them in the not too distant future - it's already happened with the Castles.
This is where I feel the manufacturer, and the secondhand buyer misses out - another example being Hornby/Arnold with their Pullman Belle - those have been selling with £150-200 premium on the original price! I'm sure those buying would much rather buy one new straight from Hornby with a warranty for the same or less!
Cheers,
Alan
One possible reason why they hike all products is price parity. Discounting older models may hamper the sales of new releases and thus increase the time it takes to amoritise new toolings. The last thing manufacturers want is for sales of old models to cannibalize those of new ones.
Quote from: Dr Al on January 09, 2018, 03:24:01 PM
This is where I feel the manufacturer, and the secondhand buyer misses out - another example being Hornby/Arnold with their Pullman Belle - those have been selling with £150-200 premium on the original price! I'm sure those buying would much rather buy one new straight from Hornby with a warranty for the same or less!
I agree that it's frustrating the manufacturers can't react more quickly to models which clearly sell well. It's good to see Farish doing another run of JPAs, as they've been going for quite a premium online lately. Dapol reacted to the Mk3s, but it still took quite a while, and whilst some 86s hung around for months and got punted out for half price others (IC Swallow) were selling for double the original price. It's clearly a fickle market, and jugding those trends is hard, not least as they often seem to arise sometime after launch. I got my IC 86 and my Network Rail 37 heavily discounted, before demand suddenly rose, very strange.
Quote from: Dr Al on January 09, 2018, 03:17:16 PM
Quote from: njee20 on January 09, 2018, 02:28:34 PM
In the nicest possible sense Alan, what is your point?
Really, the point is why manufacturers aren't doing a little on tooled models to dampen the significant hikes - and particularly for the long term good of the hobby (and therefore their business). Admittedly, maybe this is less the place of N (though Farish N used to have cheap starter sets which no longer exist) and more OO, hence the examples, but still relevant as N has to attract new modellers, even if that's more likely to be from other scales.
...
Quote from: njee20 on January 09, 2018, 02:28:34 PM
That said... Farish are extracting the Michael a little with the price of some of their older tooled DMUs.
Which ones?
I guess absorbing some of the costs of amortisation into price rises is reasonable, not necessarily a price cut in real terms, but an offset increase.
Re: overpriced MUs - the Cross Country 170. 2-car, no off the shelf DCC compatibility, no working lights. £175.
Quote from: njee20 on January 09, 2018, 03:36:54 PM
I agree that it's frustrating the manufacturers can't react more quickly to models which clearly sell well. It's good to see Farish doing another run of JPAs, as they've been going for quite a premium online lately. Dapol reacted to the Mk3s, but it still took quite a while, and whilst some 86s hung around for months and got punted out for half price others (IC Swallow) were selling for double the original price. It's clearly a fickle market, and jugding those trends is hard, not least as they often seem to arise sometime after launch. I got my IC 86 and my Network Rail 37 heavily discounted, before demand suddenly rose, very strange.
Dapol did the odd thing of not releasing the most popular liveries as normal release with their 86 - uttlerly strange - no BR Blue, only the C+M limited run, no IC executive, one IC swallow as you say that got hoovered up fairly fast, and no original Electric blue which was promised and supposedly they had the designs for the necessary tooling.
I too got the IC ones before they went to silly money, and the cheap other variants have given an ugly Freighliner donor that's half way to becoming an electric blue pre-flexicoil version. Ah, the joy of a scalpel blade and a pot of paint.....
Quote from: njee20 on January 09, 2018, 03:36:54 PM
Re: overpriced MUs - the Cross Country 170. 2-car, no off the shelf DCC compatibility, no working lights. £175.
This is a
perfect example of my point in terms of tooling - an old split chassis model that's been around for ages (2005 ish?), done plenty of runs, has many many common components (virtually the entire chassis with 168, 158) with other models that have also had plenty of runs that will have shared the tooling cost.
Cheers,
Alan
I'm not necessarily sure they're the most popular liveries, although EWS and NSE were always slightly odd choices IMO.
I do agree on the 170 (hence raising it), although I wonder if Karhedron's point about pricing parity holds water. You can't increase the prices on half of your range as there's a perceived comparative value with other products. The SWT one (like Southern) was always a strange choice of model too given the distinct lack of complementary stock. Conveniently dragging us back on topic have we had definitive commitment the new releases of the 170 are still the exact same model, or is there a new chassis in there, I've seen both being reported, although perhaps confusion with the 00 new tooling.
I must say my LM 170 is a great runner, and took minutes to convert to DCC, probably easier than some of the fiddlier locos with solder tags frankly.
I've rather forgotten after all these posts, what Farish actually released........ :confused1:
Quote from: njee20 on January 09, 2018, 04:03:26 PM
I'm not necessarily sure they're the most popular liveries, although EWS and NSE were always slightly odd choices IMO.
I do agree on the 170 (hence raising it), although I wonder if Karhedron's point about pricing parity holds water. You can't increase the prices on half of your range as there's a perceived comparative value with other products. The SWT one (like Southern) was always a strange choice of model too given the distinct lack of complementary stock. Conveniently dragging us back on topic have we had definitive commitment the new releases of the 170 are still the exact same model, or is there a new chassis in there, I've seen both being reported, although perhaps confusion with the 00 new tooling.
I must say my LM 170 is a great runner, and took minutes to convert to DCC, probably easier than some of the fiddlier locos with solder tags frankly.
I think most people would accept a difference in price relative to the age of the tooling. If someone wants a Class 40, they are unlikely to decide to buy a 170 instead if it's cheaper.
Quote from: Carmont on January 09, 2018, 04:09:43 PM
I've rather forgotten after all these posts, what Farish actually released........ :confused1:
Look back at the first page then. Strangely, that's where the list is...
Quote from: njee20 on January 09, 2018, 04:03:26 PM
I do agree on the 170 (hence raising it), although I wonder if Karhedron's point about pricing parity holds water.
It's a definite point, though with Dapol's lead there didn't seem to be much evidence that selling Ivatts and 45xxs took away from other sales, though it's difficult to say - I can only go from my own experience of saying that when I sprung for a 45xx it was over and above, rather than at the expense of any other purchase. Is there any evidence that those on sale with vast cuts now (350s, A2s for example) are stifling other sales?
I guess too, in this market there'll be limited numbers who'd buy a 170 just because it's cheap - some will for sure, but a lot wouldn't just becasue it's not a model they need or desire. Add to that restriction of supply by Bachmann, and I think they could have reasonable control over hitting any other product lines. Beyond the first 3 months they have no control anyway, and retailers can then discount at any level, so I don't think there's too much difference there in the grand scheme of things - I don't think many have succumbed their DCC sound 40 purchase to instead buy 2x 350s and an A2?!
Cheers,
Alan
Quote from: njee20 on January 09, 2018, 04:03:26 PM
I must say my LM 170 is a great runner, and took minutes to convert to DCC, probably easier than some of the fiddlier locos with solder tags frankly.
Indeed - these had Bachmann's existing skew sound 5 pole motor, which always gives silky running, and doesn't die easily.
Cheers,
Alan
Quote from: davidinyork on January 09, 2018, 04:11:34 PM
I think most people would accept a difference in price relative to the age of the tooling. If someone wants a Class 40, they are unlikely to decide to buy a 170 instead if it's cheaper.
No but they might decide to buy a class 37 instead. Even more so if it was particularly cheaper.
Quote from: Karhedron on January 09, 2018, 04:18:01 PM
Quote from: davidinyork on January 09, 2018, 04:11:34 PM
I think most people would accept a difference in price relative to the age of the tooling. If someone wants a Class 40, they are unlikely to decide to buy a 170 instead if it's cheaper.
No but they might decide to buy a class 37 instead. Even more so if it was particularly cheaper.
37s already are cheaper, and they can be picked up second-hand (the new tooling ones) for well under a hundred quid.
Quote from: davidinyork on January 09, 2018, 04:10:38 PM
I think most people would accept a difference in price relative to the age of the tooling. If someone wants a Class 40, they are unlikely to decide to buy a 170 instead if it's cheaper.
That's a bit of an apples/oranges comparison, but I know what you mean, the 37/40 may be a better comparison (edit: damn - 3rd person to make that comparison!). That also supports my assertion that people will pay what the manufacturers demand if it's a model they want. Perhaps more relevant (albeit slightly different) is whether people will buy a 350 in TPE livery for 3 times the price of an identical one in London Midland livery if the stock is still on the shelves. Seems unlikely.
You could (tenuously) argue that the 170 at £175
is cheaper than the new 350 releases at £230 too, so there is a bit of a reduction for the older tooling. You've also got a 2-car/4-car price offset mind.
Quote from: njee20 on January 09, 2018, 04:20:30 PM
Quote from: davidinyork on January 09, 2018, 04:10:38 PM
I think most people would accept a difference in price relative to the age of the tooling. If someone wants a Class 40, they are unlikely to decide to buy a 170 instead if it's cheaper.
That's a bit of an apples/oranges comparison, but I know what you mean, the 37/40 may be a better comparison (edit: damn - 3rd person to make that comparison!). That also supports my assertion that people will pay what the manufacturers demand if it's a model they want. Perhaps more relevant (albeit slightly different) is whether people will buy a 350 in TPE livery for 3 times the price of an identical one in London Midland livery if the stock is still on the shelves. Seems unlikely.
You could (tenuously) argue that the 170 at £175 is cheaper than the new 350 releases at £230 too, so there is a bit of a reduction for the older tooling. You've also got a 2-car/4-car price offset mind.
It does seem to be the case that modellers don't like to compromise on what they want. It can often be the case that the a loco in one livery can be heavily reduced in the online shops, but the same loco in a different livery will be selling for well above the original price on ebay.
Agreed - hence my parallel with the Dapol 86. People were paying >£150 for Swallow models whilst other liveries were going for £50 - you could have repainted one and 'saved' money. Weird.
Quote from: davidinyork on January 09, 2018, 04:11:34 PM
Quote from: Carmont on January 09, 2018, 04:09:43 PM
I've rather forgotten after all these posts, what Farish actually released........ :confused1:
Look back at the first page then. Strangely, that's where the list is...
Clearly my attempt at humour was poor. Apologies.
It must not be forgotten in all this it was (I believe) the Chinese government who insisted on a 20% rise in wages every year for 5 years which, as our models are so labour intensive, hit the RRP very hard. It struck me Dapol seemed to absorb this far better than Farish for the first couple of years but have now had to pass it on. I think this, rather than anything to do with tooling, has created the £150 loco, the £25 coach and the £20 wagon (and they are just the 'simpler' ones).
Are these 5 years over or is there still a year to go? I've lost track.
Quote from: Carmont on January 09, 2018, 04:38:02 PM
Quote from: davidinyork on January 09, 2018, 04:11:34 PM
Quote from: Carmont on January 09, 2018, 04:09:43 PM
I've rather forgotten after all these posts, what Farish actually released........ :confused1:
Look back at the first page then. Strangely, that's where the list is...
Clearly my attempt at humour was poor. Apologies.
I was completely in tune with your humour. I think the thread has gone way past what folks thought of the announcements and has morphed into something completely different (as Monty P would say)
I agree that Dapol seem to have remained rather more grounded on their pricing.
Dapol Megafret and Farish Multifret container pairs used to be about the same price. Dapol are now £32 from Hattons, whilst Farish ones (admittedly with a pair of containers) are £63. That is an eye watering increase, and IMO is vastly overpriced.
Hello all,
I think it's a reasonably balanced set of announcements, with some encouraging signs.
I am looking forward to the Sound-fitted Colas 47 and the TPE 350, but I am relieved not to be overwhelmed by things I want and facing difficult choices.
And the decision to re-chassis the 31 and 47, and produce a completely new 158, are very encouraging signs for those of us hoping for improved Peaks and Turbostars.
As to pricing, TBH the actual cost of producing the model (whether new or amortised tooling) is something of a red herring as far as Bachmann is concerned IMO.
Their models also have to pay towards warehousing, salaries, pensions and all the associated costs of running a business in the UK as well as turning a profit.
And while it's true prices have leapt ahead of salaries, in the context of share indices across the world reaching record levels this is suggests to me that salaries are too low, not necessarily that prices are too high.
(Reference: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/investing/shares/ftse-100-has-hit-record-highs-2018-does-january-effect-mean/ (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/investing/shares/ftse-100-has-hit-record-highs-2018-does-january-effect-mean/) )
Cheers
Ben A.
I have kept up with this thread from the start and it's proved to be an informative debate on future models and pricing.
So I looked up an old Railway modeller from June 1998 and the Hattons ad;
Class 37, 47, 56 - £58.50
3 car dmu - £59.50
Class 20, 25 - £46.50
Taking the 37, 47 and 56 prices and using an inflation calculator
Today
£99
June 1998
£59
The cost of goods and services increased by 68.1% over this period.
So considering we now have lights, finer detail, more accurate models and dcc ready and a great deal more choice of both models and manufacturers the current prices are not a million miles away
37's are to be found just under £100.latest ones just over, the latest class 40 is going for £119 post included.
Whilst the cost of these future models are steep in places I think there is a lot of stuff that has just about kept pace with all the other stuff in our lives that we pay for and where it has gone up I think the rises have been justified in order to give us the quality and choice we can experience today.
All my modelling life has been about choice; choosing the era, choosing to do some rule 1's, choosing what I like and what i don't all running alongside what I can afford/justify to continue my hobby.
Can we change the name of this thread to "lets all Moan about prices and what they have and haven't done"
just sat and read the whole thread again,
If it wasn't for company's like Farish, Dapol, Revolution, union mills and the likes we wouldn't have anything!
I know not everyone can afford it, yes prices are rising but its happening to everything! Take the humble Freddo for example! it was 10p not that long ago!
All
I am the only one disappointed there is no class 37 re-livery or sound version i am wondering why and surely one of the model shops will be doing a LTD Edition in 2018
In addition collectors club i think is 37099 Colas in OO will this see the shrink ray
Also anybody know why the have the chassis but still no OTA wagon that's no new modern wagons for 2 years if Farish don't do it nobody will as unlikely Revolution or DJM or Dapol will touch it as Farish already have the tooling for chassis and could torpedo any other model
Dave
Plus two more 37s in sets - 370-048 and 370-375, both large logo blue.
And no, no one knows why they've not produced certain items. You'd have to ask one of a select number of people at Bachmann why that is.
@cazadoom (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=565) I think this is a really interesting thread, negligible moaning and some really interesting debate. Great contribution though!
I don't have the know-how to split a thread but have asked someone in the know to try, although it's going to be difficult to sort it out. The pricing aspects are way off the original topic and needs its own thread but such a subject is being conducted in a polite manner so thank you all for that (I was starting to get twitchy at one point)
Just leave it. Trying to split it will just leave 2 confusing threads missing context. Please, just leave as is. The relevant info is still in the OP for anyone who stumbles on it.
Quote from: njee20 on January 09, 2018, 11:18:50 PM
Just leave it. Trying to split it will just leave 2 confusing threads missing context. Please, just leave as is. The relevant info is still in the OP for anyone who stumbles on it.
+1
It'll run out of steam soon (no pun intended).
Quote from: scottishlocos on January 09, 2018, 08:58:41 PM
Also anybody know why the have the chassis but still no OTA wagon that's no new modern wagons for 2 years if Farish don't do it nobody will as unlikely Revolution or DJM or Dapol will touch it as Farish already have the tooling for chassis and could torpedo any other model
Dave
Hi Dave,
I am not privy to the inner discussions at Bachmann, but given that there are no newly tooled wagons this year, and only the TEA as a newly tooled item in last year's catalogue, it does appear that a strategic decision has been taken to focus away from wagons.
I suspect this is both to concentrate their resources on high margin items like locos, and also because increasing labour costs have left many wagons - such as the Pressflos and Seacows - impossible to produce at a price Bachmann feel the market will bear.
Cheers
Ben A.
Quote from: njee20 on January 09, 2018, 04:27:41 PM
Agreed - hence my parallel with the Dapol 86. People were paying >£150 for Swallow models whilst other liveries were going for £50 - you could have repainted one and 'saved' money. Weird.
That's assuming you have the time, the skills and the tools to perform such a repaint.
Quote from: railsquid on January 10, 2018, 12:47:26 AM
Quote from: njee20 on January 09, 2018, 04:27:41 PM
Agreed - hence my parallel with the Dapol 86. People were paying >£150 for Swallow models whilst other liveries were going for £50 - you could have repainted one and 'saved' money. Weird.
That's assuming you have the time, the skills and the tools to perform such a repaint.
That's what I've been doing with Jubilee's. Buy them for £55 - £65 on FleaBay, get them repainted in desired livery.
Quote from: railsquid on January 10, 2018, 12:47:26 AM
Quote from: njee20 on January 09, 2018, 04:27:41 PM
Agreed - hence my parallel with the Dapol 86. People were paying >£150 for Swallow models whilst other liveries were going for £50 - you could have repainted one and 'saved' money. Weird.
That's assuming you have the time, the skills and the tools to perform such a repaint.
I meant paying someone else.
Quote from: njee20 on January 10, 2018, 05:59:58 AM
Quote from: railsquid on January 10, 2018, 12:47:26 AM
Quote from: njee20 on January 09, 2018, 04:27:41 PM
Agreed - hence my parallel with the Dapol 86. People were paying >£150 for Swallow models whilst other liveries were going for £50 - you could have repainted one and 'saved' money. Weird.
That's assuming you have the time, the skills and the tools to perform such a repaint.
I meant paying someone else.
Ah OK, never occurred to me that might be an option, is it really doable for less than £100?
Ben A commented about wagons may have become expensive to produce at a price they can sell enough of them at, or words to that effect.
This could well be the case, and is why I feel that the NGS could/should aim to capitalise on the situation with their value for money society members kits. Bulk purchases of them are surely popular when you want a rake of similar wagons. It doesn't take the purchase of many members kits to easily re-coup your membership fee.
There will of course always be those who can pay whatever manufacturers ask, but with the current economic situation I imagine increasingly more will have decided not to buy, or buy less.
So yes Ben, Farish/Bachmann have likely looked at their sales figures and pulled back from wagons for a while.
Absolutely nothing at all to interest me for another whole year! The class 31's were only re-tooled 3 years ago so why the need to do them again so soon when the class 25/3 hasn't been re-tooled for 30 years? And if they are re-tooling the class 31's why aren't they doing a disc headcode (skinhead) version? I was also hoping for a disc headcode class 40 in BR blue but no sign of that either or a class 24/1, so easy to produce as only the front ends need some altering, a new DMU would have been nice too, it's 10 years since they produced the class 108 Derby & 7 years since they re-tooled the class 101 Metro-Cammell's, how about a class 105 Craven's? No point in e-mailing Bachmann as they wont answer questions on new product suggestions so we wait & wait & wait until we die! :-/
Quote from: WesternKing on January 10, 2018, 09:06:22 AM
Absolutely nothing at all to interest me for another whole year! The class 31's were only re-tooled 3 years ago so why the need to do them again so soon when the class 25/3 hasn't been re-tooled for 30 years? And if they are re-tooling the class 31's why aren't they doing a disc headcode (skinhead) version?
Becaue they aren't actually re-tooling them, clearly! They are simply modifying the design to take Next-18 and a speaker. Dapol have said they are going to do the same with their models over time.
Quote from: railsquid on January 10, 2018, 06:42:17 AM
Quote from: njee20 on January 10, 2018, 05:59:58 AM
Quote from: railsquid on January 10, 2018, 12:47:26 AM
Quote from: njee20 on January 09, 2018, 04:27:41 PM
Agreed - hence my parallel with the Dapol 86. People were paying >£150 for Swallow models whilst other liveries were going for £50 - you could have repainted one and 'saved' money. Weird.
That's assuming you have the time, the skills and the tools to perform such a repaint.
I meant paying someone else.
Ah OK, never occurred to me that might be an option, is it really doable for less than £100?
Mercig, who is one of the most reputable in the business charges £50 for prep/the first colour, then £10 for each subsequent colour, and £10 for the cantrail stripe, so an IC Swallow respray would be £90. So yes, very.
Quote from: trkilliman on January 10, 2018, 07:49:10 AM
So yes Ben, Farish/Bachmann have likely looked at their sales figures and pulled back from wagons for a while.
The prices of Farish wagons has sky rocketed in the last couple of years - PCA tanks doubled overnight, as did many other wagons, let alone new toolings. It would be interesting to know if sales have dropped because prices have risen, which is pushing Farish away from wagons, or if Farish have moved away from wagons because the necessary pricing means they're not as commercially viable.
Obviously I'm not suggesting they sell anything as a loss leader, but I wonder if keeping margins tighter on wagons, particularly in N where people may plausibly buy 20+ of a single model, is a better strategy. It's interesting that Dapol seem to have managed to keep prices lower there.
Quote from: njee20 on January 10, 2018, 09:29:44 AM
Quote from: railsquid on January 10, 2018, 06:42:17 AM
Quote from: njee20 on January 10, 2018, 05:59:58 AM
Quote from: railsquid on January 10, 2018, 12:47:26 AM
Quote from: njee20 on January 09, 2018, 04:27:41 PM
Agreed - hence my parallel with the Dapol 86. People were paying >£150 for Swallow models whilst other liveries were going for £50 - you could have repainted one and 'saved' money. Weird.
That's assuming you have the time, the skills and the tools to perform such a repaint.
I meant paying someone else.
Ah OK, never occurred to me that might be an option, is it really doable for less than £100?
Mercig, who is one of the most reputable in the business charges £50 for prep/the first colour, then £10 for each subsequent colour, and £10 for the cantrail stripe, so an IC Swallow respray would be £90. So yes, very.
Thanks, noted for future reference, I imagined that kind of thing would be a lot more expensive.
Eyes the budget 86s bought with an eye to future repainting
He was the first person that came to mind, I imagine plenty of other people will do a very good job for similar/less too. Or have a go yourself, worst case you strip it back and have lost a bit of your time.
Anywho, that really is a new tangent!
Quote from: njee20 on January 10, 2018, 10:23:24 AM
He was the first person that came to mind, I imagine plenty of other people will do a very good job for similar/less too. Or have a go yourself, worst case you strip it back and have lost a bit of your time.
Anywho, that really is a new tangent!
Well, as we're barrelling along that current tangent, have a look at the work of Ozymandia on this forum. Search for "Spares and repairs discoveries" (can't do link at the mo' on my phone).
Quote from: emjaybee on January 10, 2018, 11:05:16 AM
Quote from: njee20 on January 10, 2018, 10:23:24 AM
He was the first person that came to mind, I imagine plenty of other people will do a very good job for similar/less too. Or have a go yourself, worst case you strip it back and have lost a bit of your time.
Anywho, that really is a new tangent!
Well, as we're barrelling along that current tangent, have a look at the work of Ozymandia on this forum. Search for "Spares and repairs discoveries" (can't do link at the mo' on my phone).
http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=22566.msg484391;topicseen#new (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=22566.msg484391;topicseen#new)
Quote from: Ben A on January 09, 2018, 11:52:21 PM
Quote from: scottishlocos on January 09, 2018, 08:58:41 PM
Also anybody know why the have the chassis but still no OTA wagon that's no new modern wagons for 2 years if Farish don't do it nobody will as unlikely Revolution or DJM or Dapol will touch it as Farish already have the tooling for chassis and could torpedo any other model
Dave
Hi Dave,
I am not privy to the inner discussions at Bachmann, but given that there are no newly tooled wagons this year, and only the TEA as a newly tooled item in last year's catalogue, it does appear that a strategic decision has been taken to focus away from wagons.
I suspect this is both to concentrate their resources on high margin items like locos, and also because increasing labour costs have left many wagons - such as the Pressflos and Seacows - impossible to produce at a price Bachmann feel the market will bear.
Cheers
Ben A.
Ben
Thanks for taking time out to answer the point about wagons one more question i guess it doesn't save any production costs because they already have correct chassis used on other models also probably a fair few fiddly bits on an OTA which would put costs up.
The wagon with x2 Containers at £60 odd quid is madness you could get a second hand loco for that or a short rake of smaller wagons
Having said that the OTA would be very popular
Dave
To play devil's advocate, I think the risk is people confuse "I want some of those" with "that would be popular". Unless you have done some research, how do you know it would be "very popular"? Are there any caveats to that popularity? Which variant would be most popular? What's the ideal price point? How many would people have?
I agree an OTA seems a reasonably obvious choice for a new model, but if Farish have decided that to do one would cost £40 how many would you have? I'd guess that the chassis isn't the complicated bit, so having one they can re-purpose doesn't really help much. I wouldn't buy any, even though they're within my era they just don't interest me. I think it's very dangerous to assume that x would be a popular model, even if it may seem an 'obvious' choice.
As for what the £60 would get you instead of some Multifret wagons if you stay within the Farish world it would get you fewer than 3-4 of most of their 2-axle wagons. Given you're talking about a pair of bogie wagons is that better value?
Hi ,
A good selection , I guess the GWR 57 will be able to pull the dummy/ failed IEPs when these come out! Pullman with jumpers in reverse livery a long felt want ! and the White /blue 108 fun for mixing it up. colas 47 with sound a good one for across the network workings. 47/8 also good but still no sign of the MK2e to go with it .
Robert
Quote from: njee20 on January 10, 2018, 01:56:38 PM
To play devil's advocate, I think the risk is people confuse "I want some of those" with "that would be popular". Unless you have done some research, how do you know it would be "very popular"? Are there any caveats to that popularity? Which variant would be most popular? What's the ideal price point? How many would people have?
There are some pretty good pointers - long-lived, wide geographical range, etc. For new toolings it also helps if there are lots of liveries to go at over a number of years.
That said, there are equally some niche models which seem sought after although it wouldn't necessarily be expected. For example the Dapol set in the now-defunct Wrexham & Shropshire livery is very sought after - I saw one go for £200 on ebay yesterday, which is a lot more than it would have cost new.
Quote from: njee20 on January 10, 2018, 09:29:44 AM
Quote from: railsquid on January 10, 2018, 06:42:17 AM
Quote from: njee20 on January 10, 2018, 05:59:58 AM
Quote from: railsquid on January 10, 2018, 12:47:26 AM
Quote from: njee20 on January 09, 2018, 04:27:41 PM
Agreed - hence my parallel with the Dapol 86. People were paying >£150 for Swallow models whilst other liveries were going for £50 - you could have repainted one and 'saved' money. Weird.
That's assuming you have the time, the skills and the tools to perform such a repaint.
I meant paying someone else.
Ah OK, never occurred to me that might be an option, is it really doable for less than £100?
Mercig, who is one of the most reputable in the business charges £50 for prep/the first colour, then £10 for each subsequent colour, and £10 for the cantrail stripe, so an IC Swallow respray would be £90. So yes, very.
That's just for the repaint. It's then a further £120 for the weathering package and basic detailing. And I quote from his website - Resprays are only taken out as part of the weathering package, and are priced as follows. I do not take on work that is purely a respray.
So it's actually £210 for a respray, weathering and basic detailing.
Cheers
Anthony
Quote from: cazadoom on January 09, 2018, 08:08:13 PM
Can we change the name of this thread to "lets all Moan about prices and what they have and haven't done"
just sat and read the whole thread again,
If it wasn't for company's like Farish, Dapol, Revolution, union mills and the likes we wouldn't have anything!
I know not everyone can afford it, yes prices are rising but its happening to everything! Take the humble Freddo for example! it was 10p not that long ago!
Freddo!! 10p!! Seems a life time ago now :smiley-laughing:
Cheers
Anthony
Quote from: Railbank on January 09, 2018, 07:44:21 PM
I have kept up with this thread from the start and it's proved to be an informative debate on future models and pricing.
So I looked up an old Railway modeller from June 1998 and the Hattons ad;
Class 37, 47, 56 - £58.50
3 car dmu - £59.50
Class 20, 25 - £46.50
Taking the 37, 47 and 56 prices and using an inflation calculator
Today
£99
June 1998
£59
The cost of goods and services increased by 68.1% over this period.
So considering we now have lights, finer detail, more accurate models and dcc ready and a great deal more choice of both models and manufacturers the current prices are not a million miles away
37's are to be found just under £100.latest ones just over, the latest class 40 is going for £119 post included.
Whilst the cost of these future models are steep in places I think there is a lot of stuff that has just about kept pace with all the other stuff in our lives that we pay for and where it has gone up I think the rises have been justified in order to give us the quality and choice we can experience today.
All my modelling life has been about choice; choosing the era, choosing to do some rule 1's, choosing what I like and what i don't all running alongside what I can afford/justify to continue my hobby.
Well said that man :beers:
I have been saying the same for some time now. The thing is we are spoilt in this hobby. We didn't have half the models that we have now 20 years ago. Also 20 years ago people were crying out for working lights, extra finer details, smoother running motors etc. Well now we have it and more! But look at where we are at with it all. Social media full of ranting and the same with the forums. I just think people are getting greedy, wanting more for less and higher expectations. Unfortunately all these extra things come at a cost.
I don't really know what else to say apart from to the one's who's expectations are high, and wanting everything for nothing, then maybe it's time you found another hobby? Personally I am quite happy with everything. And no I don't have a disposable income each month, I model a set era and area. I don't buy for the sake of buying because something looks nice. I guess I am lucky that I am in a position to sit down and actually do some proper modelling. No new livery's on a 37 this year? Oh well, I'll pick up an existing model at a reasonable price and respray it myself. This is what modelling is all about isn't it?
I know I will probably be bombarded with replies to this, but I am just airing my opinion that's all.
Cheers
Anthony
Not from me, Anthony. I've always said you get wot you pays for. :beers:
Quote from: 37058 on January 10, 2018, 11:20:09 PM]
That's just for the repaint. It's then a further £120 for the weathering package and basic detailing. And I quote from his website - Resprays are only taken out as part of the weathering package, and are priced as follows. I do not take on work that is purely a respray.
So it's actually £210 for a respray, weathering and basic detailing.
Ah ha, seems more likely. Still, you'll find a respray elsewhere for £100 I'll wager. Shalln't derail the thread even further on that tangent!
Re: unrealistic expectations and wanting everything for nothing. I'm not really seeing that. We've got a few people saying they have to be more selective with purchases, but that seems to be a statement of fact and begrudging acceptance rather than a moan. It's common sense too, who wouldn't be more selective with purchases when there's a bigger financial outlay. I think the people moaning about the moaners outnumber the moaners by a significant margin!
Even though I have made the odd comment, I think we are way off topic here.
Quote from: njee20 on January 11, 2018, 08:24:23 AM
Re: unrealistic expectations and wanting everything for nothing. I'm not really seeing that. We've got a few people saying they have to be more selective with purchases, but that seems to be a statement of fact and begrudging acceptance rather than a moan. It's common sense too, who wouldn't be more selective with purchases when there's a bigger financial outlay. I think the people moaning about the moaners outnumber the moaners by a significant margin!
I would completely agree - this utterly nails it njee20 :beers:
Cheers,
Alan
It's getting late here in Oz, please let's stick to the OP.
We have come a long way from when I started in N gauge in the mid 70s when one new loco-or even one new livery-or a new kit-was a major news item..............
I agree with 37058/post#153.
Though I am in the fortunate position of already owning most of what I would like, and have little space on my layout for more...........
Martyn
Quote from: Bealman on January 11, 2018, 09:07:17 AM
It's getting late here in Oz, please let's stick to the OP.
We're talking about new releases, the costs thereof and strategies around selecting the items, isn't that the topic? It's an interesting discussion, please let's not stifle it by saying we have to discuss 2018 releases and nothing else. It'll wain and die a death naturally. It's been really refreshing to let a thread wander a little bit, it's come back to the original topic, there are some great contributions, and it's been the busiest thread on here in months with 160 replies in 4 days. Isn't that all positive?
I doubt anybody wants anything for nothing. The worry is the price rises will push folk away from the hobby. That's bad news all round if so. I cant afford most new releases from Graham Farish but can afford track, controllers scenic details and books and Mags which support the scene as a whole. Second hand seems to be high as I commented elsewhere recently and that is driven by the new RRP to a point and how much is produced. I am now seen on occasion damaged or non running models being advertised at prices way higher than I would pay. Also with second hand you don't get the same rights as a new retailed product but if the market bears it then so be it. Prices will always increase that's a given but let's hope the hobby doesn't become the reserve of the wealthy only.
I guess though one assumes people have a collection already. There's no inherent need to purchase new models, as you observe the second hand values have increased, so if someone wants a new model they can always move on older stock. Like you, I wince at some second hand prices, but there are still some good deals out there. I buy a lot of stuff second hand, particularly rolling stock, and have yet to get 'burned'.
You could argue that people won't be attracted to the hobby if prices are high, but I'm not sure I buy that, there's no rose-tinted glasses and people saying "20 years ago this was much cheaper" if you've no baseline to compare to. At the end of the day the cost of entry is comparatively high, in time if not financial terms, but there's little on going cost - things don't really wear out. You could, theoretically, spend £x on stock and a layout and need to spend nothing more for 20 years.
That said, 00 does feel more accessible to me for 'new blood', with Railroad models, and TTS sound (at the higher end), but I think most people probably come to model railways through 00 anyway, and we all know it's a far bigger market.
I think like most things perceptions of value are very personal judgements.
My view is that things have peaks and troughs - when I first got into N gauge as a teenager all models were expensive. Things became much cheaper or at least felt cheaper when I started working. When Bachman moved production to China there were better quality and low prices - perhaps a golden age but it was never going to be sustainable if for no other reason than prices were kept 'artificially' low by cheaper production costs in China. Not unreasonably Chinese workers want to be paid a decent wage.
So do manufacturers chase the next low wage country for 10-20 years or accept at a certain point that higher prices are going to be necessary if we want to pay workers a fair wage.
I've tried to avoid politics but stuck to economics.
Cheers M
Railway modelling is a tricky field to get cheaper. Runs are small and the parts are smaller which means automation is often not economical. I think that as long as we continue with the current manufacturing methods, there is limited scope for models getting cheaper. 3D printing may change all that but the quality is not there yet.
Quote from: red_death on January 11, 2018, 02:15:47 PM
Things became much cheaper or at least felt cheaper when I started working
That's hit the nail on the head for me, Mike. When I was working (all those 4½ years ago) I had a lot of disposable income and my pre orders at one stage reached nearly £1500. Having taking the (relatively) risky decision to retire at 60 with enough savings and a small private pension behind me to carry me until the 'official' pension kicked in, I soon realised such expenditure could not continue.
Luckily a combination of increasing prices and 'rationalisation' of releases pegged everything back such that I buy maybe one loco a year (although RevolutioN has been quite expensive for me!! :P)
TBH, I am glad Farish are continuing to release anything, as opposed to nothing being announced by Dapol apart from 00 and DJM relying entirely on one release to fund the next.
I swear the more I earn the less money I have :hmmm:
Quote from: njee20 on January 11, 2018, 03:17:37 PM
I swear the more I earn the less money I have :hmmm:
Oh, you must be self employed like me then.
>:(
The old Graham Farish website with product listings appears to have been taken down. The last update was on 1 January when I viewed it on Sunday. So now we can only see the new website with the new product listing. Guess they are putting up the new prices for the previously announced stuff.
http://www.bachmann.co.uk/farish.php (http://www.bachmann.co.uk/farish.php)
Afternoon all.
So it looks like a quiet year of 'wants for me with just the GW Toad on my radar. On the plus funds can be saved for a pair of sound 8Fs.
Cheers
Ollie
:NGaugersRule:
Quote from: Lindi on January 11, 2018, 06:25:00 PM
Hattons have updated there prices for the Farish Mk2f coaches. The RRP is £42.95 (£44.95 for the DBSO)
Yes, but have they got a release date yet?
(once I'd got up off the floor)
Certainly in the "eye watering" category! Would potentially have had some to respray as Caledonian Sleeper coaches, but not at that price!
I'm a keen fan of Thompson coaches-but not many at the expected prices.......I'll stick with my Ultima kits and conversions.
Martyn
Quote from: woodbury22uk on January 11, 2018, 04:19:00 PM
The old Graham Farish website with product listings appears to have been taken down. The last update was on 1 January when I viewed it on Sunday. So now we can only see the new website with the new product listing. Guess they are putting up the new prices for the previously announced stuff.
http://www.bachmann.co.uk/farish.php (http://www.bachmann.co.uk/farish.php)
That URL doesn't work, and so far as I can see there's currently nothing about Farish on the new website other than theblog post about new releases. Have they temporarily pulled the Farish product listing pace for some reason?
Quote from: njee20 on January 11, 2018, 06:42:22 PM
Certainly in the "eye watering" category! Would potentially have had some to respray as Caledonian Sleeper coaches, but not at that price!
Do these Mk2s have some additional features on them that might explain the extra cost (e.g. lighting)?
I see the Thompsons are showing at £34 discounted on the same retailer's site. I am fairly happy to pay that if they are as good as the NGS Thompson BG, and I have little doubt they will be. In the same vein I am fine paying £110 discounted for a green 31 that is Next 18 sound ready, to me that's not a bad price at all. Same goes for a sound fitted 8F - around £220 is entirely reasonable in my opinion when compared to buying loco, chip with sound file and speaker then finding someone to do the work.
I guess you get what you pay for and the models really are pushing the boundaries now. Reality is prices were unsustainably low a few years back and modellers got used to that. It has come as a nasty shock now this has adjusted, but for manufacturers to remain successful they can't make models at a loss.
Like others my modelling budget has limits and I buy far fewer "rule 1" or on impulse these days. I am happy that with the quality we have less is more.
Truthfully Model railways has never really been a cheap hobby.
Roy
Quote from: Lindi on January 11, 2018, 06:25:00 PM
Hattons have updated there prices for the Farish Mk2f coaches. The RRP is £42.95 (£44.95 for the DBSO)
Bachmann are increasing all there prices from 1st February
:jawdropping: Don't need any and that at price I'll never want any.
I wondered about lighting, I recall the forthcoming OO gauge ones do, and DCC fitted DBSOs and what not, but they another notch more expensive again, and it would be horrific PR to announce a price rise and forget to announce you've made a massive upgrade to the model. One would assume they'd strive to do the opposite...
I was assuming that at that price it not only had lighting but a buffet trolley that trundled to and fro and a ticket collector struggling to get past the trolley.
:laugh3:
I would hope we'll see lighting in the Mk2 DBSOs, the pre-order prices weren't cheap to start off with and they as near as dammit just doubled.
Yes, definitely head/tail lights in the DBSOs, they're no different to a DVT in that respect. Was thinking more about the intermediate coaches with lighting provision.
The OO gauge ones look great - video here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dK-jnGOUin4) showing the effects. Won't post it inline as it's OO! The tail lamp looks great, be good to get that in N, Revolution are proving it can be done after all!
Quote from: njee20 on January 12, 2018, 12:25:09 PM
Yes, definitely head/tail lights in the DBSOs, they're no different to a DVT in that respect. Was thinking more about the intermediate coaches with lighting provision.
The OO gauge ones look great - video here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dK-jnGOUin4) showing the effects. Won't post it inline as it's OO! The tail lamp looks great, be good to get that in N, Revolution are proving it can be done after all!
I am a sucker for push-pull trains so will need to have a DBSO. Some basic lighting functions would suffice, but with the new higher price would be happy with whatever they can squeeze on top of that.
I have to say I'm not a fan of Dapol's lighting bars, the white is too cold, the yellow is too yellow, and they're both far too bright. They need to do a warm white that's half the brightness, more like those Bachmann ones.
Still, we've no reason to think there's going to be fitted lighting to the mk2s, provision would make sense, but we've not seen it in their Mk1s or any other coach or MU yet, so I'm doubtful, even if it would go some way to justifying the price rise.
Quite a lot to like in there for me.
The green 31 with Next 18 and speaker fitted - easy sound install. Even if the particular loco D5616 was assigned to the ER not WR...
Three car 108 with DCC sound fitted - yes please!
The maroon Hawksworths - will definitely be interested in those, but would like some additional blood & custard ones to complete a full rake. Four isn't enough...
The chocolate & cream mark ones - can never have too many of those!
A few of the usual wagon suspects....
Can't quite get myself across the line with the ex Midland Blue Pullman in grey / blue...tempting though...
The green class 47 - tempting... haven't got any of those. Yet....
Could be an expensive year....
Quote from: geoffc on January 08, 2018, 09:59:33 AM
Nothing for me I'm afraid, no FGW/GWR 158 or Mk3 sleepers. For some reason they are producing a Class 57 GWR which is a waste of time with no coaches to go with it. They did the same when they produced the FGW version, the only good side to that was they did not sell very well and I got one brand new from a box shifter for £55. If the same thing happens again I will buy one, if not my money is going on the Dapol DRS 68 and GWR HST.
Fair point. I actually think they'd have been better to do 57604 in the GWR lined livery - that would have had a longer time-frame (it's had that livery through both the FGW blue and current GW green livery phases, and has recently been repainted retaining the same livery), plus it would have been of interest to some (me included) as it's a nice livery. As for the standard, GW green, don't think I'll bother.
They do have all the artwork for 57604 as it's been done in OO gauge.
September's RM reviews the latest Farish releases - Class 66 Evening Star, Class 37/0 Railfreight, Network Rail Mk2 BSO and the Hawksworth coaches in Maroon (at last).
£42.95 for a coach !!!!!! That's way above my spend on my railway that will feed us three for a week ,I did sell some things and managed to buy two Farish Auto coaches at a bargain price , but that price is now the end of new products for me ,and I should imagine will stop lots of people starting up in the hobby.
Bob Tidbury
Yes £42.95 is steep but remember, that is for the DBSO which is a special case. You only got 1 per train meaning most modellers will only buy 1 or 2. This makes it harder to spread the cost of the tooling across a large number of coaches sold.
If you look at the Hawksworths, they are coming for a slightly less eye-watering price of £37 which will come down £31 once the usual 15% retailer discount is applied.
Pricey, I agree but with Sterling continuing to drift downwards, I don't see prices going anywhere but up for the next few years.
Plus it's got lights, decoder socket etc, it's basically a dummy locomotive.
That's not what's being released this month though, that's just the mk2 BSO which is £35 at retail.
Quote from: njee20 on August 09, 2018, 10:28:41 AM
That's not what's being released this month though, that's just the mk2 BSO which is £35 at retail.
:o
In that case, I retract my previous statement, that is a lot for one coach that would normally be run in a rake!
Quote from: longbow on August 09, 2018, 01:11:21 AM
September's RM reviews the latest Farish releases - Class 66 Evening Star, Class 37/0 Railfreight, Network Rail Mk2 BSO and the Hawksworth coaches in Maroon (at last).
A somewhat strange comment in RM about the class 66 5 door version Evening Star is "GF seems not to have been able to print the nameplates themselves to its satisfaction"
The maroon Hawksworths look nice enough to eat but I must keep some money back for the forthcoming Thompsons :(
Watch it mick
Steve Flint is watching ;D
Quote from: Karhedron on August 09, 2018, 10:34:03 AM
Quote from: njee20 on August 09, 2018, 10:28:41 AM
That's not what's being released this month though, that's just the mk2 BSO which is £35 at retail.
:o
In that case, I retract my previous statement, that is a lot for one coach that would normally be run in a rake!
I admit I've not got RM, so maybe it's changed, but all the retailers are listing the RRP of the Mk2 BSO as £34.95. The DBSO is £44.95, but that's not coming out yet.
Yes, £35 is still a lot, but as you say, it'll be c£30 from all the major retailers anyway. Farish certainly seem to be pushing prices a lot further than Dapol - who are still doing mk3s for £22ish, with fully detailed interiors, lighting provision etc, although I accept things like underframe mouldings are more simple.
Quote from: Bealman on August 09, 2018, 10:57:32 AM
Watch it mick
Steve Flint is watching ;D
After he told me at that Wigan Show I looked older than he thought I was am I bovvered? :unimpressed:
;D
I remember you being a bit miffed by that :D
Latest progress on some GF products shown at Warley:
http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=39351.msg540751#msg540751 (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=39351.msg540751#msg540751)
Skyline2uk
Quote from: Newportnobby on August 09, 2018, 10:52:46 AM
The maroon Hawksworths look nice enough to eat but I must keep some money back for the forthcoming Thompsons :(
So much for self control ::) I bought 5 Hawksworths and still want the Thompsons having seen the pics from Skyline2UK :doh:
Quote from: Newportnobby on November 25, 2018, 10:38:25 AM
Quote from: Newportnobby on August 09, 2018, 10:52:46 AM
The maroon Hawksworths look nice enough to eat but I must keep some money back for the forthcoming Thompsons :(
So much for self control ::) I bought 5 Hawksworths and still want the Thompsons having seen the pics from Skyline2UK :doh:
Self control is a difficult discipline sir, I have now started to make a list of all my I started projects (for which I have all the bits anyway), but still have lots of other things I am after >:D
PS Pictures were posted on behalf of Paul B, I couldn't go to Warley this year :(
Skyline2uk
EP samples of the MK2f coaches
(https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_11_2018/post-1-0-23075600-1543134213.jpg)
(https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_11_2018/post-1-0-04188200-1543134171.jpg)
(https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_11_2018/post-1-0-19047800-1543134243.jpg)
(https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_11_2018/post-1-0-53336500-1543134269.jpg)
(https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_11_2018/post-1-0-95737400-1543134294.jpg)
Ep of the 8f
(https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_11_2018/post-1-0-67530900-1543134098.jpg)