Hi All
Just for some context look at the cost of this little beauty
Bought as a play thing for lockdown
Syma S107G mini helicopter, beautifully made, flys great, 3 motors, remote control and stabilising gyroscope
All for £16.99 delivered
I am aware that they have made thousands of these but at £16.99 how does it compare against the prices we pay for N gauge
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/93/2967-210520190159.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=93847)
It's all about design for manufacture. While that helicopter is perfectly shaped to be fun to play with and made from cheap components, it only bares a passing resemblance to a real helicopter and isn't of a particular scale. So the designer can make a lot of choices in favour of simple assembly and cheaper components (much of which will be standard across literally millions of toys produced).
Now for an N Gauge locomotive, the designer is a lot more restricted. Very few of the components will be standard and they have to be done to very precise scale and detail. Also, because of all that detail, it'll require skilled workers to be able to assemble the components into a finished model and a lot more time to assemble than a toy helicopter.
All those unique mouldings and extra assembly time (with higher skilled workers) adds up.
I had a pair Pico-Z helicopters a few years ago, same sort of price and good fun for a while but eventually my lad and I lost interest. These things are made in their hundreds of thousands, and don't require anywhere near the same precision of tooling and construction as a model loco. Not really worthy of comparison at all.
I agree on the cost advantages of the volume these models are made in but this is not in anyway a poorly engineered model, the Syma model has a very good reputation as an learning and entry level helicopter. The quality of the rc board and fit of components puts many an n gauge loco to shame
Not saying that a loco should be so cheap £16.99 but against well over £100 does need some consideration in this context. What about being charged just short of £20 for an basic tool wagon as a comparison
It's an apples:oranges comparison, totally irrelevant. That is to RC helicopters what a Brio train is to N gauge.
10 seconds on Google shows RC helicopters costing between £85-£500 generally. I wonder if the RC helicopter group are thinking they should move to model railways because this is only £12:
(https://www.pramworld.co.uk/media/catalog/product/cache/4c428786edadcbb2dd6a9dabf52923c9/b/i/bigjigs_mallard_battery_operated_engine.jpg)
Apples and oranges are still basically fruit so one should not be excessively more expensive than the other
The Bio train is not a fair comparison to the Syam helicopter as this is an well engineered operational model not a rough bit of plastic and the comparison just shows how good value the Syam helicopter is for its price, I have the model in front of me and it is as well engineered as most of the n gauge models I have
The point I am making is how good value the Syam is and a challenge to the value of certain railway models in general, in context are model railway not the most popular modeling hobby in the UK?
The point of the post is to bring debate about value for money when you buy models, be them RC or railway or any other related type
A lighthearted comparison was the intension
:hmmm:
I wonder, how many man hours goes in to each loco from design to delivery to shop floor?
The materials aren't particularly expensive, certainly not in China.
RRP of a diesel is say £120-130, or approx £100 before VAT.
What's the RRP margin, 25-30% perhaps?
So Bach/Farish generate £70 in sales per diesel sold.
Profit margins are what? I heard they weren't exactly flush with cash.
So what do they actually make per sold model a few quid, perhaps.
And, what's the average volume/run on each model?
Quote from: Rabbitaway on May 21, 2020, 08:29:36 PM
The point I am making is how good value the Syam is and a challenge to the value of certain to railway models in general, in context are model railway not the most popular modeling hobby in the UK?
The point of the post is to bring debate about value for money when you buy models, be them RC or railway or any other related type
Trouble is that the challenge doesn't work; it's just a grossly flawed comparison. You talk about a wagon at £20. But they're probably only making 2,000 or so. Ever. How much do you think your helicopter would be if they only made 2,000?
Quote from: Ted on May 21, 2020, 08:32:58 PM
I wonder, how many man hours goes in to each loco from design to delivery to shop floor?
The materials aren't particularly expensive, certainly not in China.
RRP of a diesel is say £120-130, or approx £100 before VAT.
What's the RRP margin, 25-30% perhaps?
So Bach/Farish generate £70 in sales per diesel sold.
Profit margins are what? I heard they weren't exactly flush with cash.
So what do they actually make per sold model a few quid, perhaps.
And, what's the average volume/run on each model?
Quite so Ted, consider all the fixed and variable costs throughout the production/supply chain, starting with £100k ish of tooling costs (which may or may not be amortised over more than one production run) and it will ultimately drill down to a comparatively small net margin.
Production runs can typically be measured in thousands (usually 1008 of each livery variant in Farish's case) so if we take the next shipment of J39s when it is made as an example that's 3,024 in total.
In spite of the repeated conspiracy theories, nobody is making huge bucks out of model railways, I think it was Jason Shron of Rapido who said to make a small fortune in the model railway business you first need to start off with a large one!
There is simply no point in trying to compare low volume complex manufacturing such as model railways with things like radio control helicopters which are high volume and designed to be cheap to manufacture and simple to assemble. It is like comparing apples with armadillos (if that is a more helpful analogy).
Going back to the question earlier about the most popular hobby in the UK? Certainly not model railways I doubt that's anywhere near the top, I would speculate it is probably angling...
Roy
Yes, only 2000 helicopters in a production run would make them significantly more expensive, the whole point of the post is about the value for money this little helicopter is in comparison to what we pay for model railways, surely this point cannot be challenged whatever the volume production reasons behind its value for money.
I said modelling hobby, not general hobbies, likely to be gardening
Quote from: Rabbitaway on May 21, 2020, 08:56:32 PM
Yes, only 2000 helicopters in a production run would make them significantly more expensive, the whole point of the post is about the value for money this little helicopter is in comparison to what we pay for model railways, surely this point cannot be challenged whatever the volume production reasons behind its value form money.
"value for money" is totally subjective.
My £100 Class 50 is infinitely better value *to me* as I'll get years of enjoyment (hopefully!) out of it - a plastic 16 quid chopper would give me 30 minutes of enjoyment and never be used again.
Value for money, that makes the 50 a lot cheaper.
The costs/volume arguments have been done to death, as this market is always low volume, so those comparisons are always totally flawed.
Cheers,
Alan
Quote from: Rabbitaway on May 21, 2020, 08:56:32 PM
Yes, only 2000 helicopters in a production run would make them significantly more expensive, the whole point of the post is about the value for money this little helicopter is in comparison to what we pay for model railways, surely this point cannot be challenged whatever the volume production reasons behind its value form money.
Sorry but "value for money" is not the same as "cheap" which is what you seem to be suggesting...
Value is reflected in many different ways of which price is but one component.
Roy
"value for money" is like "worth", ie. pretty meaningless and totally subjective for the person wanting and maybe purchasing the thing in question.
To me, model railways can be good value for money with the enjoyment I get from owning and operating the models, appreciating all the intricate design and production which has gone into something made in relatively small numbers.
I wouldn't compare one of my old cheap and cheerful Lima or Piko models to something like my hand built and custom finished CJM loco, but both may be good "value for money" *in my opinion*. I know some others don't see value in spending £100s on a CJM.
Quote from: njee20 on May 21, 2020, 07:42:55 PM
It's an apples:oranges comparison, totally irrelevant. That is to RC helicopters what a Brio train is to N gauge.
10 seconds on Google shows RC helicopters costing between £85-£500 generally. I wonder if the RC helicopter group are thinking they should move to model railways because this is only £12:
(https://www.pramworld.co.uk/media/catalog/product/cache/4c428786edadcbb2dd6a9dabf52923c9/b/i/bigjigs_mallard_battery_operated_engine.jpg)
Even comparing the Brio locos brings up my design for manufacturing point. It they were hand made for small batches rather than carefully designed to be mass manufactured in hundreds of thousands, those Brio locos would be multiple times the price too.
As with the toy helicopters, the Brio models will be designed to share a lot of standard components that can be manufactured in the millions and assembled quickly and easily by unskilled workers.
Yes, the helicopter is value for money based on the quality of manufacture and entertainment flying it
We have bought a mini helicopter in the past for similar money but it was not a patch on the quality and flying ability of the Syma, my daughter I and used fly this old model numerous times until after too many crashes it became damaged, therefore the replacement Syma after checking out reviews
We seem to have gone down a rabbit hole about the point of the post which is about the quality of the product and entertainment for your money as an observation not a criticism of the choice of n gauge as a hobby
As I said this is a lighthearted "look how good this is for the money" post compared to what we pay for n gauge
My posts did not argue with the economics of n gauge production
I love the Brio Mallard, it may be a wooden toy, but it's modelled on a real loco rather than a stylised generic impression, and it's the kind of thing that leads children into the rabbit hole of asking questions and hopefully getting interested in the real thing.
I love the helicopter too, just for clarity. I have a few 'foamy' RC aircraft. They have a tiny Lithium Polymer battery, so have a fly time of 6/7 minutes at best, but they look the part and fly quite well. At a price of £45 each, plus the transmitter at about £75 they're a huge amount of fun for not big bucks. Considering that 20yrs ago a RC plane that looked like that would cost you £300/£400/£500+ I consider them good value for money.
I also have City of Bradford which cost £90 new, a Fowler for £60 new, and a Royal Scot for £70 new all in the last few years, I also consider these good value.
It's about balancing enjoyment with expenditure with longevity, as others have said.
Horses for courses.
Quote from: Rabbitaway on May 21, 2020, 09:34:54 PM
Yes, the helicopter is value for money based on the quality of manufacture and entertainment flying it
We have bought a mini helicopter in the past for similar money but it was not a patch on the quality and flying ability of the Syma, my daughter I and used fly this old model numerous times until after too many crashes it became damaged, therefore the replacement Syma after checking out reviews
We seem to have gone down a rabbit hole about the point of the post which is about the quality of the product and entertainment for your money as an observation not a criticism of the choice of n gauge as a hobby
As I said this is a lighthearted "look how good this is for the money" post compared to what we pay for n gauge
My posts did not argue with the economics of n gauge production
I think maybe if the word 'rhetorical' could have been inserted into the original post to deter some of the responses.
The reality is, we all know how expensive N gauge is. Those that have a grip on the real world know nothing can be done about it. And yes there will always be better examples of value for money.
Discussion is redundant :)
I still don't get the point of this post - "Let's compare random specific example of Hobby A with Hobby B in general"?
Cool, you can get a nice little RC helicopter "toy" for want of a better word (I know little about helicopters but it doesn't look like a realistic scale rendering of an actual prototype) for say a sixth of a cost of a British outline N gauge locomotive.
And, so what?
Mystified.
I agree with others, all the opening post says is that very high volume products designed to be mass produced with minimal human assembly work are a lot cheaper to make than low volume items with lots of little bits that need to be assembled. If every British outline N gauge loco sold in millions per year they might only cost £20 each and production quality would be much more consistent (although I'm happy with current quality levels).
The tooling for that helicopter probably cost less than the tooling for a loco (circa £100k) but the cost is divided over hundreds of thousands or maybe millions of units. The cost of tooling for a loco is over a few thousand units. It could well be that a model like the Dapol class 50 won't start to provide a return on investment until the second run. Small batch sizes are another big cost. Whether you are producing 100 or 1,000,000 you still have to source all the components that you buy in, schedule production of all the components that you make in house, get the tools to make these parts out of store and fitted into the machines for mouldings and return them to store afterwards. During fitting, testing and removing of tools the moulding machines aren't earning money so the cost of idle machines is part of the batch set up cost. You have to book a slot with the assembly area and have all of the instructions and any jigs ready at the right time. All of this requires quite a lot of various employee's time at both the factory and the UK company requesting a batch run and therefore creates lots of costs. These costs don't really vary much with volume but the factory has to charge them to the production run which obviously affects the piece price. So again you have a reasonable sized set up cost being shared by a very small run in the case of N gauge locos. Based on this it is easy to see why UK 00 locos are similar in price to N and why US locos of all scales tend to be cheaper. Also why 0 gauge tend to be more expensive. The cost of the plastic used to make a body is close to insignificant whether it be N, 00 or even 0. The cost of getting to the point where you can make a relatively small number is very significant.
If comparing the cost of hobbies
A decent mountain bike will cost at least a couple of grand. I have seen a rather nice Specialized ebike MTB for sale at £9,999. You could buy a lot of locos for that money! Also things wear out so you need to keep spending on replacement parts.
You can buy cheap fishing rods but many folk pay over £500. A Browning EXO Sphere Zero-G F1+ Set 17m will set you back over £5k
Skis can cost you anything from just over £100 to many thousands, then you have to buy the rest of the necessary gear and be able to afford to go somewhere where there is snow.
Restoring classic cars is just a money pit.
Even for a simple pleasure such as painting a decent canvas will set you back north of £50 - and you have to paint it yourself!
Our way of spending time is probably still a relatively cheap compared to many others.
You can buy a pint of milk for 50p. Yet a house can cost over £1m. Makes you think, doesn't it?
The ongoing spend for me for me is a big part of the 'value' of model railways as a hobby. Once you have your layout and stock (which can be an oval of set track, a loco and three wagons) that's it. No more ongoing costs, basically. As Chris calls out the cycling example is a good one; if you buy a 'cheap' mountain bike, for say £1,000, and expect to use it year round it's not unlikely that you'll have a couple of hundred pounds of maintenance bills every year, and that scales with the initial purchase price. I get there's a very small cost of servicing a large fleet of locos, but it is vanishingly small in the greater scheme of things.
I think this is a completely pointless thread.
However, it is a forum, and it's keeping folks occupied during lockdown, I guess ;)
A more appropriate topic title might be "Cost of N gauge models out of context". But it has entertained me while enjoying a cup of expensive, but good value, coffee, using water heated by solar electricity, and served in a sustainable bamboo cup, whilst I have kept an eye on the garden birds squabbling over one particular piece of food, when there is plenty of other equivalent food around them.
Quote from: Bealman on May 22, 2020, 09:25:45 AM
I think this is a completely pointless thread.
However, it is a forum, and it's keeping folks occupied during lockdown, I guess ;)
See, he gets it.
It's a conversation you'd have down the pub with your mates.
Irrelevant, pointless, meaningless, inconclusive.
Next!
Thanks for the reminder! NSW government announced tonight that pubs and clubs are open again from June 1st. :thumbsup: :beers:
Quote from: Bealman on May 22, 2020, 10:01:20 AM
Thanks for the reminder! NSW government announced tonight that pubs and clubs are open again from June 1st. :thumbsup: :beers:
Like you needed a reminder!
:smiley-laughing:
Quote from: Bealman on May 22, 2020, 10:01:20 AM
Thanks for the reminder! NSW government announced tonight that pubs and clubs are open again from June 1st. :thumbsup: :beers:
Nothing to do with the brewery slowly going bust while you're not able to get to the club, then?
Back on topic, it's interesting to see the cost of other hobbies compared to model railways. My other hobby is a 650cc Kawasaki which cost me almost as much as my N gauge motive power and gets used far less as I'm a fair weather biker.
The problem is, as discussed many times before on the forum, we had it too good for too long and are now paying a true market price. I still fail to see, speaking personally, how Farish coaches are almost double the cost of Dapol ones as they're not that much better but that's another debate.
It's the same as the stupid Aldi / Lidl shop comparison with Tesco.
Fill a trolley full of their OWN BRAND and tell you it cost £35 fill a trolley of BRANDS at tesco and say it costs £130
YES BECAUSE IM BUYING BRANDED STUFF THAT TASTES NIICE NOT SOME CHEAP FOREIGN JUNK EQUIVALENT.
And as for the stupid argument "they taste the same" I just wont buy it.
I had the same discussion with a good customer with my Roofing company, he was adamant his shopping was "the same" I made my point about Lurpak butter is better then their Lurpik shoddy rip off equivalent.
I offered him a Tesco repair using proper Lead for £150 or his Aldi equivalent using Tin Foil for 50p. They look the same but they are A MILLION POLES APART.
I had one of these helicopters, my folks bought it me as a stocking filler for Christmas, yeah their well built, silly little motors on tiny wire frames and a perspex body over the top, must take 20mins to put together and even if you have the patience to learn to fly the damn thing you'll be bored of it before the battery runs out.
Strange thread.
One thing about trains is you don't expect them to crash from a height and be re-kitted, well at least I don't. Flying things will eventually crash.
Unfortunately RC aircraft robustness is inversely related to quality of scale-ness.
A reasonable scale RC plug-and-play foam model costs me about $400 to $800 (loco about $250) and may not survive the first take off, let alone flight, and they don't offer you your money back or accept it for warranty replacement. :(
For the enjoyment/usage lifetime of a loco or rolling stock I would probably wreck or burn-out a dozen or more of the little contra-rotating helicopters.
This has been on top of this bookcase for 7 years (at least) ;)
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/93/255-220520103421-939001150.jpeg)
Quote from: NinOz on May 22, 2020, 10:32:38 AM
Strange thread.
One thing about trains is you don't expect them to crash from a height and be re-kitted, well at least I don't.
It's happened to me on a few occasions. Back when I was a lad and we had a layout in the loft a loco left the track and went through the loft hatch bouncing on the steps right down to the landing. The body was a mess but the chassis ran better than ever afterwards. More recently I've inadvertently driven a battery RC g scale loco straight through the buffer at the end of the line and from there it did a spectacular dive into the greenery below. My grandson has also driven a loco off the other end of my garden railway. Perhaps it's in the genes!
Quote from: Bealman on May 22, 2020, 10:37:56 AM
This has been on top of this bookcase for 7 years (at least) ;)
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/93/255-220520103421-939001150.jpeg)
Wot? The dog? :confused2:
Quote from: Newportnobby on May 22, 2020, 10:47:52 AM
Wot? The dog? :confused2:
No, you fool, the line-dancing trophy ;)
Quote from: tutenkhamunsleeping on May 22, 2020, 10:52:08 AM
Quote from: Newportnobby on May 22, 2020, 10:47:52 AM
Wot? The dog? :confused2:
No, you fool, the line-dancing trophy ;)
I thought George was an award winning Schuhplattler dancer :P
Quote from: Bealman on May 22, 2020, 10:37:56 AM
This has been on top of this bookcase for 7 years (at least) ;)
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/93/255-220520103421-939001150.jpeg)
Funnily enough I have something similar gathering dust on top of a bookcase. Mrs. Railsquid bought it for me, in the pre-N gauge era, bless her. Was kind of fun for a few times but not really my cup of tea, then the hassle of charging it up, taking it outside and trying to fly it without damage (I suspect I failed in that) meant it ended up there, subsequently with the vague idea of salvaging it for N-gauge relevant parts (!).
Dear All,
Having not posted anything to any N gauge fora for many years, I felt strangely compelled to add my four penn'orth to this discussion...
I find it interesting that in the late 90's a newly-released 57xx Farish pannier cost about 10 times what you'd pay for a Farish vent van, now with a 64xx it's more like 5-6 times (based on the cost of brand new stuff). I guess that reflects labour costs apart from anything else.
Price and value no doubt depends in part on whether you're buying a single model to add to a collection or trying to stock a layout completely from scratch (assuming anybody is still doing the latter, I hope they are!).
I've tried to upload a couple of photos: if they come out, I hope they will be rather more interesting than any of the above. They're both of repaints I've done recently.
The 37 was bought as a green-liveried scrapper off eBay about two years ago. I repainted it as a lockdown project. It probably cost about £35 including paint, transfers and three replacement gears. It could do with some snowploughs (but not nameplates, as it's in mid-1987 condition, when it had lost its name to a 37/4). A Farish 37/0 in large logo livery sold for £155 on eBay the other day (a limited edition "Loch Eil", admittedly a better body shape than mine, nose doors excepting, I'm not bothered about lights or DCC). Anyway, I am happy with my cheap version. I made the Scottish-style extra headlight out of a piece of translucent plastic (nylon?) from the end of one of those plastic tags you get on new clothes.
I do hope these photos come out, otherwise all this will be a bit of a damp squib!
The other picture is of a wagon I bought off eBay and repainted (before lockdown, as it now lives in Wales and I don't). It was very rusty but in full working order and cost 300 euros (about £260). I admit it needed a bit more paint than the 37 and the p&p was rather higher as it came from Germany, but the basic cost was about the same as a brand new Farish 37 and three-four new Mk1's. It still needs a bit of welding on the top strut (I have a piece of old pressed-steel sleeper to patch it with, as soon as the Welsh border is open for non-essential travel).
Or in other words, whatever "melts your butter"...!
Best Wishes,
Mat
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/93/8627-220520110136.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=93914)
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/93/8627-220520110216.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=93915)
Quote from: tutenkhamunsleeping on May 22, 2020, 10:52:08 AM
Quote from: Newportnobby on May 22, 2020, 10:47:52 AM
Wot? The dog? :confused2:
No, you fool, the line-dancing trophy ;)
Watch it, you lot. I'll have you know that dog is solid brass and has a pup, unfortunately lying on it's back out of sight. The line dancing trophy says:
"In appreciation Mr G. Green, Coach, Dapto Soccer Premiers 1978" :P
Oh, and G'day from Australia, Mat, and welcome to the NGF! :thumbsup:
Quote from: Bealman on May 22, 2020, 11:13:24 AM
Quote from: tutenkhamunsleeping on May 22, 2020, 10:52:08 AM
Quote from: Newportnobby on May 22, 2020, 10:47:52 AM
Wot? The dog? :confused2:
No, you fool, the line-dancing trophy ;)
Watch it, you lot. I'll have you know that dog is solid brass and has a pup, unfortunately lying on it's back out of sight. The line dancing trophy says:
"In appreciation Mr G. Green, Coach, Dapto Soccer Premiers 1978" :P
:hmmm:
Odd name for a dancing club...
...maybe it's an Antipodean thing.
???
Quote from: MatP on May 22, 2020, 11:08:39 AM
Dear All,
Having not posted anything to any N gauge fora for many years, I felt strangely compelled to add my four penn'orth to this discussion...
I find it interesting that in the late 90's a newly-released 57xx Farish pannier cost about 10 times what you'd pay for a Farish vent van, now with a 64xx it's more like 5-6 times (based on the cost of brand new stuff). I guess that reflects labour costs apart from anything else.
Price and value no doubt depends in part on whether you're buying a single model to add to a collection or trying to stock a layout completely from scratch (assuming anybody is still doing the latter, I hope they are!).
I've tried to upload a couple of photos: if they come out, I hope they will be rather more interesting than any of the above. They're both of repaints I've done recently.
The 37 was bought as a green-liveried scrapper off eBay about two years ago. I repainted it as a lockdown project. It probably cost about £35 including paint, transfers and three replacement gears. It could do with some snowploughs (but not nameplates, as it's in mid-1987 condition, when it had lost its name to a 37/4). A Farish 37/0 in large logo livery sold for £155 on eBay the other day (a limited edition "Loch Eil", admittedly a better body shape than mine, nose doors excepting, I'm not bothered about lights or DCC). Anyway, I am happy with my cheap version. I made the Scottish-style extra headlight out of a piece of translucent plastic (nylon?) from the end of one of those plastic tags you get on new clothes.
I do hope these photos come out, otherwise all this will be a bit of a damp squib!
The other picture is of a wagon I bought off eBay and repainted (before lockdown, as it now lives in Wales and I don't). It was very rusty but in full working order and cost 300 euros (about £260). I admit it needed a bit more paint than the 37 and the p&p was rather higher as it came from Germany, but the basic cost was about the same as a brand new Farish 37 and three-four new Mk1's. It still needs a bit of welding on the top strut (I have a piece of old pressed-steel sleeper to patch it with, as soon as the Welsh border is open for non-essential travel).
Or in other words, whatever "melts your butter"...!
Best Wishes,
Mat
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/93/8627-220520110136.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=93914)
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/93/8627-220520110216.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=93915)
Welcome!
We need to know more, much more, about the metal wagon. Location, gauge, motive power, your involvement etc., etc.
Hello Mat, and welcome aboard.
The thing is, in the 2000s the Chinese government decreed wages in China should rise by 20% each year for a 5 year period so, basically, the good times were over. That being said the models we get nowadays are far superior in looks to the older models
Hi all,
I have no problem with workers being paid a fair wage, none whatsoever, but I do have a bit of a problem with supply not meeting demand, which I think is a real problem in our hobby (the reasons for it, good and bad, having been rehearsed many times in these pages).
I do find modern models a bit over-specified for my own needs, and difficult / intimidating to tinker with (I recently had to deal with an overheating capacitor in a Dapol 26, that was a world of not-fun, and the lights didn't take kindly to being unplugged). I prefer older stuff that I can mess about with - but demand / supply issues also push second hand prices up, particularly since the lockdown and particularly on eBay (something else that has no doubt been discussed to death on modelling fora).
All that said, I have recently fitted a 37418 bodyshell (from Bob at BR Lines / Farish spares) to a 2008-ish vintage Farish 37 chassis and it was an absolute doddle (the loco looks fantastic, the high-intensity headlight works even though the donor loco didn't have one and the whole thing cost way less than buying a new 37418 off eBay).
The model of 37407 that surreptitiously crept into the back of my photo was painted by a contact of the proprietor of the Lichfield Train Shop. I bought it in about 1990 while doing my GCSE's - it took me a whole year to save up for it. The chap who painted it also rebuilt it with <Hallelujah Chorus> white gears. It still runs fine - so a good investment there.
I volunteer at the Bala Lake Railway (where the photo of Tippy the Tipper Wagon was taken) and have recently (re-)built a Dinorwic Quarry slate wagon in my garage for them using original ironwork (some of it pre-WW1) and all-new timber. That gave me a hankering for buying something of my own but I had to look abroad as I couldn't find any NG rolling stock for sale in the UK at a decent price. I did however want to avoid a wagon that might have been used on a Nazi forced-labour site in WW2.
Tippy was built in the early 1950's by LKM (Karl Marx Locomotive Works) at their plant in Rostock (or possibly at their main factory in Leipzig). He's 60 cm gauge, weighs about 350kg (empty) and is a Communist knock-off copy of the Orenstein-Koppel-Nazi-era version of the Decauville late WW1 / Maginot Line works railway tipper wagon original design. I painted his wheel rims red as a nod to his Communist ancestry. He carries Bala Lake Railway no.83 and "Eiddo MP" (which is Welsh for "Property of MP") on one of the chassis cross-members.
I now also own an original Decauville chassis to go with "Tippy" (cost me £50!!! and was exported to the UK before WW2 so no provenance issues). It needs structural welding, which I have arranged to get done at the North Norfolk Railway (where I also volunteer). I hired a van to swap the wagons over, only for Mr. Johnson to announce the lockdown on the evening before I was due to drive to Wales. But the needs of one railway enthusiast don't amount to a hill of beans in the present situation, of course.
I am thinking of using this chassis to build a micro-sleeper coach to stay in when I am in Wales :) At 6' x 3' there might even be room for an N gauge layout (so back on topic!).
Best Wishes,
Mat
I am glad to see the thread is now becoming less serious as intended
Interesting points about the use of hobby related things. The helicopter was bought to fly with my daughter so gets used, I have just ordered another so we can fly one each (choice or two transmitter bands on these). Get about 8 minutes flying time. They may end up on a shelf in a few months but we will have had our fun
I have specific items of n gauge stock that gets a lot less use and three motorcycles, V8 muscle car, now are all these worth keeping, that is another question
:hmmm:
@MatP (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=8627) thanks for the info/bio, interesting stuff. Well done for all the railway volunteer work. Love the wagon.
@Rabbitaway (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=2967), moving on...
...what's the V8? I'm having a day of intrigue on here today.
Vauxhall Monaro, important from Holden by Vauxhall in small numbers, these cars are well known by our Australian friends
Quote from: Rabbitaway on May 22, 2020, 03:36:02 PM
Vauxhall Monaro, important from Holden by Vauxhall in small numbers, these cars are well known by our Australian friends
Ah yes, one of Mr Walkinshaws toys. I used to do about a months decorating a year at his farm down the road. He owned 51% of Holden Special Vehicles.
Unfortunately not a 6.0 VXR, just the 5.7 CV8
Alternatively, you could compare the cost of model railways "now" to the cost of model railways "then".
The Peco Jubilee, when it came out in the early 1970s, cost £17. Also in the 1970s, my father bought the house I grew up in (a 13 room house in a village just outside Cambridge) for £37,500. Were that house to come on the market now, it would easily sell for £750,000 ... a 20-fold increase.
If the price of model railways had inflated at the same rate as the houses in which you put your railway room, your big express locomotives would be costing you £340 or thereabouts. Sooooo ... are those Chinese-built masterpieces REALLY so expensive?? They may feel it ... but they're still much more affordable, in real terms, than the equipment which the pioneers of N were working with!
Quote from: PGN on May 27, 2020, 01:43:55 PM
The Peco Jubilee, when it came out in the early 1970s, cost £17.
Actually mine cost £9 10s 0d or £9.50 in 1970. The price you are quoting for a Jubilee is about 1980 prices.
Minitrix Britannias were £7 17s and Warships were £7 in 1970.
When the Farish Holden and 94xx Pannier came out in 1971 they were £5 give or take.
Excluding Lima, there were only six BR outline locos in N at that time. Jubilee/Britannia/Class 27/Class 42/Pannier/Holden
Lima did a Class 31 and a class 86, but they were even less realistic and worse running than the ones mentioned above.
Quote from: Bob G on May 27, 2020, 02:49:27 PM
Quote from: PGN on May 27, 2020, 01:43:55 PM
The Peco Jubilee, when it came out in the early 1970s, cost £17.
Actually mine cost £9 10s 0d or £9.50 in 1970. The price you are quoting for a Jubilee is about 1980 prices.
Minitrix Britannias were £7 17s and Warships were £7 in 1970.
When the Farish Holden and 94xx Pannier came out in 1971 they were £5 give or take.
My father fastidiously transcribed the prices from the price list to the catalogues.
£17 was the price he had written in the 1974 Peco catalogue ... which came at the end of the massive inflationary period (27% in 1973) ... so I'm assuming your price is the price paid by those who ordered when the Jubilee was announced, and then had to wait 2 years or so to get their hands on the model they'd paid for.
The Holden tank was marked £5-35, and the pannier tank £5.65, in the 1973 Graham Farish "Romance of Steam in Miniature" catalogue.
By 1980 a Jub would cost you about £30 ... and I paid about £15 in that year for my Lima 4F.
I had my Jubilee when it first came out in 1971. And I was fastidious about knowing the prices of these models. I was eleven years old and things like that mattered!
Quote from: PGN on May 27, 2020, 03:13:04 PM
By 1980 a Jub would cost you about £30 ... and I paid about £15 in that year for my Lima 4F.
Yep. Mine cost me £26 in 1979. I was working my summer job on the Romney Hythe and Dymchurch Railway and treated myself to one. A Farish 0-6-0 cost me around £13 I think.
I joined the NGS in 1978 and the Winter Magazine has some figures. The Jubilee was £26.80 but available to members at £21.50. however the Farish Black 5 was £21.75 but available at £17.95. A year before Hattons (figures from Railway Modeller) were offering the Jubilee at £23.75 or a Farish Battle of Britain for £12.75
There were various wagons at £1 a piece but the Blue whisky wagon was £1.50 RRP and a Farish Pullman £1.75.
Seems that if a 20 times rate of inflation is correct we are not doing too bad but it would mean the Railway Modeller would now be £7 and Peco wagon Kits From £11-£20 each.
Incidentally the NGS mag show a Lima J50 for £7.55 RRP. Perhaps the longest wait for a model to reach production?
All tongue in cheek.
Quote from: honk843 on May 27, 2020, 05:19:26 PM
All tongue in cheek.
I'm sorry I didnt quite hear that :smiley-laughing:
Quote from: honk843 on May 27, 2020, 05:19:26 PM
Incidentally the NGS mag show a Lima J50 for £7.55 RRP. Perhaps the longest wait for a model to reach production?
I hope you didn't pay for one on pre-order.
If so ... I suggest you ask for your money back ...
Quote from: honk843 on May 27, 2020, 05:19:26 PM
Incidentally the NGS mag show a Lima J50 for £7.55 RRP. Perhaps the longest wait for a model to reach production?
Yeah I remember that in the catalogue along with the King and the Western. All doctored OO photos, all never to appear from Lima.
Perhaps rather than suggest even more let-downs some of those previously - supposedly seriously - promised could be produced. -J50, King, Western, J72, Thumper, Class 17, Class 21, 23, 29, Raven Q6, all at originally quoted prices of course. Not to mention GT3, Fell et al.
Seriously, and bringing things back to topic, I think looking back what is missing now in N gauge is manufacturers passion for their products (with the notable exception of Revolution) and longevity. The Chinese do not understand the market they are producing for or at least they do not show it. The quality of product cannot be denied and the associated cost but I wonder how many will still be around in thirty plus years time.
Simon Kohler at Hornby shows what a difference one man and his passion can make.
A lot of the list was offered by someone who is no longer in the business. The 21/29 story is well documented on here why it failed.
I actually think lack of passion from other manufacturers is an unfair charge (nor do I think Hornby are necessarily a great example for all sorts of difficulties!) - plenty of the people at both Barwell (Farish) and Chirk (Dapol) have a passion for railways and indeed in some cases N gauge railways. I'm not sure I could accuse any of them of lacking passion for what they do.
That isn't to say that I always agree with the decisions that those companies make but I'm sure they think the same about Revolution! Every company has different priorities and has to set its own agenda (along as those align with their customers!) and find its own way - we all have different strengths and weaknesses (companies and people!).
Cheers Mike
I agree with Mike, moreover "the Chinese" is a bit of an unfair generalisation, ok Bachmann may have a Chinese parent company, but that's not to say there's no UK presence, quite the opposite, so it seems a bit moot.
Quote from: red_death on May 27, 2020, 08:53:51 PM
I actually think lack of passion from other manufacturers is an unfair charge (nor do I think Hornby are necessarily a great example for all sorts of difficulties!) - plenty of the people at both Barwell (Farish) and Chirk (Dapol) have a passion for railways and indeed in some cases N gauge railways. I'm not sure I could accuse any of them of lacking passion for what they do.
'Unfair' is possibly a wrong word to use, but I think I know what @honk843 (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=1116) is getting, and is caused IMHO by the lack of communication by many of the majors with their market. Now maybe the guys at RevolutioN are spoiling us with their regular Facebook sessions but Dapol's Digest forum is a farce and Farish don't even bother, other than through the Collector's Club. Dave Jones attempted to embrace the NGF and RMWeb until he distanced himself from all fora.
I have the feeling the N gauge voice is not listened to by any other than RevolutioN at the present time and so, basically, we get what we are given by someone who thinks they know what we want and who is quite happy to string us along with promised dates and tie models up someone else could produce.
Apart from my frequently voiced opinion of Farish rolling stock prices, I think we still get a decent deal cost wise even though it's difficult to forget the 'good times' of several years back.
Quote from: Newportnobby on May 27, 2020, 09:46:42 PM
I have the feeling the N gauge voice is not listened to by any other than RevolutioN at the present time and so, basically, we get what we are given by someone who thinks they know what we want and who is quite happy to string us along with promised dates and tie models up someone else could produce.
It's very easy to talk the talk ... but the manufacturers need to be confident that we will spend the spend.
I recall someone having a go at the Dapol representative at the NGS AGM back in 2013 or thereabouts ... and he came back fighting with the fact that Dapol had listened to what modellers said they wanted - crimson Gresleys - so they had produced crimson Gresleys and got their fingers badly burned which left them very disinclined to listen to society surveys rather than their own market research.
I'm afraid I have to take the manufacturers' part here. It's a simple fact of commercial life that you cannot afford to have your working capital tied up in unsold stock. You have to turn your working capital over to make a profit, and reinvest it, and turn it over again. The days of massive catalogue inventory are long gone, and we all have to accept that. As recent events have shown, this doesn't just apply to model railway equipment. It applies equally to mundane products like ... well ... toilet rolls ...
Hello all,
Just a comment on the Chinese manufacturers... I cannot speak for all, of course, but I have met three of the Chinese designers we work with and I guarantee they are very passionate about what they do, very proud of the standards they set and more knowledgeable than me about many British prototypes!
And anyone who was at TINGS or Warley last year could have met Sam - who is behind Sonic Models - as he travelled from Hong Kong for both shows.
Sometimes of course they get things wrong, and we do our best at the CAD stage to eliminate any errors - but it is not through any lack of care or professionalism.
Also comparisons with models produced in yesteryear can be a little misleading as the quantities produced were vastly different - as has been pointed out, in the 1970s there were something like a dozen N gauge locos to buy. Now, counting all eras and units, there must be hundreds of different models available, so sales of each are proportionately lower and therefore prices will be higher.
Cheers
Ben A.
Quote from: Ben A on May 27, 2020, 11:21:40 PM
Also comparisons with models produced in yesteryear can be a little misleading as the quantities produced were vastly different - as has been pointed out, in the 1970s there were something like a dozen N gauge locos to buy. Now, counting all eras and units, there must be hundreds of different models available, so sales of each are proportionately lower and therefore prices will be higher.
Well ... there were far fewer N gauge modellers back then, and disposable incomes are now somewhat higher, so it may not be quite so simple as this ... but I think you are probably right regardless. Plus, of course, there are far more eras to model now than there were back then ... and the recent eras which hadn't been invented in the 1970s tend to see far more different liveries for the same prototype (1970s salesman: "Class 26 diesel, sir? Yes, certainly ... Minitrix make one of them. Did you want it in old-fashioned two-tone green, or bodern blue?"). Modern modellers, on the whole, seem to be more fastidious than the pioneers of N about insisting on having exactly the "right" livery for their modelling project. I recall a layout article in the Railway Modeller from about 1973 in which the layout builder had wanted his layout to have a LSWR feel to it. He was running one or two Highfield bespoke LSWR locomotives alongside the first two Graham Farish offerings ... GWR 94xx pannier and GER Holden tank. I cannot see many modern modellers who wished to evoke a sense of a particular time and location choosing to buy stock from such alien geographical locations and time period if the stock in the livery they wanted was not available ... and this too must tend to suppress sales volumes.
We are definitely spoilt for choice these days. Reviewing Hornby Dublo has made me realise the slim pickings our forebears had. May be like a lot of "toys" (no offence intended) the imagination element has been replaced by actual fidelity and detail (not sure about robustness though ;) ).
Kind regards
Paddy
Hi All,
I would just like to preface these remarks by saying that I'm currently building a small, Highland-style 80's fuel depot scene (inspired by Fort William, Lairg and Lochavullin). It uses a few recycled kit parts and a lot of 1mm rod. Total cost about a tenner. The best way to ease the shock of RTR prices is and always has been to devise budget modelling solutions (which are usually far more satisfying than buying a piece of RTR anyway).
Comparing house prices in, say, 1990 with today doesn't really work as there are over 10 million more people
living in the UK now than then, and they haven't built 10 million more houses over the same period. Also, the quality of houses built in the UK hasn't gone through a quantum leap of improvement over that time...
But how about this comparison between two items that have changed a great deal over thirty years...
RRP of a Golf GTi in 1990: £12,148* RRP today: £25,845
RRP of a Farish 37 in 1990: £40* * RRP today: £139.95
(*about £22k in today's money / **about £75 in today's money, which is what 1990's 37's go for on eBay!)
Is a current Golf GTi as different from a 1990 one as a contemporary Farish 37 is from a 1990 one? Who can say... I'd love to get a similar comparison using a 1990 and contemporary Ford Fiesta but can't find any figures for the former's new price easily on the internet. I smell a conspiracy!
What I would love to know is how
current prices
batch production
levels of availability
specifications of contemporary RTR
breadth of ranges
current state of the nation's mainstream, industrial and preserved railways
pandemics
have affected the total number of people in the UK who model railways. But no hard figures exist, just internet waffle (such as this email). I would also love someone to catalogue every single model railway vehicle in regular use on a layout in the UK and work out the average and median age of those vehicles. But then, I would also like a solid gold toilet seat for my birthday, and there's no way that's going to happen either.
Regards,
Mat
Quote from: MatP on May 30, 2020, 09:45:11 AM
But then, I would also like a solid gold toilet seat for my birthday, and there's no way that's going to happen either.
There's nothing good about a solid gold seat
As it's colder than a wooden one in winter
The difference, of course, with a solid gold seat
Is you're far less likely to get a splinter
Quote from: MatP on May 30, 2020, 09:45:11 AM
Is a current Golf GTi as different from a 1990 one as a contemporary Farish 37 is from a 1990 one?
Sorry to snip and single out a line, but to give a perspective - it's an unequivocal yes from me!
As in, I'd never buy a pre-China made model.
They look inferior, the model detail lacks fidelity and their mechanics are simpler. They also don't come ready for DCC.
All my stock is the latest tooling from ~2011 onwards.
I appreciate that makes me sound elitist, but for perspective I only started in the hobby two years back. This certainly limits my nostalgia for older models!
All said, if someone is looking to get in to the hobby on a budget, they can pick up second-hand older items at half or less of the current era/spec models.
As a Golf GTI owner I feel qualified to comment on the above :D
I'm not sure that's a fair comparison. Yes, a modern Golf GTI is a quantum leap from a 1990 one but that's because cars full stop have come on. British N gauge has evolved far faster than (say) Continental N, arguably bringing it more in line with other offerings.
I'm not sure there really is a fair comparison - and it's not like you can buy at 1990 prices, so you just have to consider if purchases are worth asking prices. If not, you don't buy.
Like Ted I also don't own any Poole era models, and wouldn't buy them. I've got a couple of 90s, but all later Chinese releases, and actually I don't use them because they look poor alongside other contemporary models. However I totally understand why people buy/use them.
The transformation in cars is nothing short of amazing. The specifications, build quality and performance of your standard family car today would have only been found on "luxury" models 20+ years ago.
Almost all cars these days have alloy wheels, electric windows, power steering, A/C, airbags, ABS - this list goes on and on.
I remember being really excited about my first Ford Escort as it had a built-in cassette deck, sunroof and two-Tom paint (remember that?). That would have been back in the early 1990s. No alloy wheels, electric windows or power steering though.
I think new houses are the biggest disappointment (in the UK). Their cost has gone through the roof (excuse the pun) but the size, quality (value for money) is poor. There is also very little innovation. I would expect new houses to come with solar panels, water recycling, built in networking, fibre optic connections and loft spaces that are easy to convert to additional living space if required.
Have a great weekend everyone.
Kind regards
Paddy
Quote from: Paddy on May 30, 2020, 10:33:52 AM
I think new houses are the biggest disappointment (in the UK). Their cost has gone through the roof (excuse the pun) but the size, quality (value for money) is poor. There is also very little innovation. I would expect new houses to come with solar panels, water recycling, built in networking, fibre optic connections and loft spaces that are easy to convert to additional living space if required.
Paddy
You'll get no argument from me on that one. Spending a lot of time in other people's properties (no, I'm not a burglar, I do property maintenance) I've seen just about every era of British house building. Frankly, as a nation, we've never been good at house building, but the current crop are abysmal. Recently in our village Taylor Wimpey built 70 houses. They planned to fit gas boilers until they realised there was no gas in the village, by which time the foundations and half the walls were up, meaning that some houses have to have an oil hose dragged through the house to refill the tank as there is no rear access. Other houses can't use a 1/3rd of their gardens as they have buried oil tanks. They all had a letter prior to the first Christmas to remind them NOT to store the decorations in the loft as the lofts are not designed to take a load. To cap it all, the guy who bought the show house has had all kinds of grief. They reinstated a internal wall when they passed it over to him, but with a 1" step in it. They came back to make it level with the existing wall amd while they were doing that the ceiling in the lounge fell down!
These poor people pay a premium for a new house. They sell them off plan so there's no incentive to reach a decent standard.
As regards progress, you are so correct. There's no reason they shouldn't be legislated to install solar PV, solar water heating and rainwater harvesting. The house building fraternity does not, and never has been bothered by anything other than large, quick profit.
[Just to be clear, I don't necessarily include small independent house builders in this sweeping statement, although many aren't any better than the big boys.]
Sorry to veer sharply off topic, it's a pet peeve, albeit it one that keeps me reasonably gainfully employed.
Quote from: emjaybee on May 30, 2020, 11:14:21 AM
Quote from: Paddy on May 30, 2020, 10:33:52 AM
I think new houses are the biggest disappointment (in the UK). Their cost has gone through the roof (excuse the pun) but the size, quality (value for money) is poor. There is also very little innovation. I would expect new houses to come with solar panels, water recycling, built in networking, fibre optic connections and loft spaces that are easy to convert to additional living space if required.
Paddy
You'll get no argument from me on that one. Spending a lot of time in other people's properties (no, I'm not a burglar, I do property maintenance) I've seen just about every era of British house building. Frankly, as a nation, we've never been good at house building, but the current crop are abysmal. Recently in our village Taylor Wimpey built 70 houses. They planned to fit gas boilers until they realised there was no gas in the village, by which time the foundations and half the walls were up, meaning that some houses have to have an oil hose dragged through the house to refill the tank as there is no rear access. Other houses can't use a 1/3rd of their gardens as they have buried oil tanks. They all had a letter prior to the first Christmas to remind them NOT to store the decorations in the loft as the lofts are not designed to take a load. To cap it all, the guy who bought the show house has had all kinds of grief. They reinstated a internal wall when they passed it over to him, but with a 1" step in it. They came back to make it level with the existing wall amd while they were doing that the ceiling in the lounge fell down!
These poor people pay a premium for a new house. They sell them off plan so there's no incentive to reach a decent standard.
As regards progress, you are so correct. There's no reason they shouldn't be legislated to install solar PV, solar water heating and rainwater harvesting. The house building fraternity does not, and never has been bothered by anything other than large, quick profit.
[Just to be clear, I don't necessarily include small independent house builders in this sweeping statement, although many aren't any better than the big boys.]
Sorry to veer sharply off topic, it's a pet peeve, albeit it one that keeps me reasonably gainfully employed.
not good mike. Hope the neighbour / chap put a claim in. Do tell him about the forum and the angry thread
We moved in to our new Persimmon home back in 2001 with a young family. All I will say is that we then spent the next two years (I kid you not) fighting with Persimmon to get all the faults fixed. I am not talking about minor items either - the hot/cold taps were plumbed the wrong way around. There were nails sticking out of the skirting board where someone had gone mad with a nail gun. The kitchen was not installed correctly and the gas hob was condemned. We had numerous leaks, cracks etc. Even the toilet in the ensuite could not be used as they built it next to the wall - you could not sit on it!
I vowed never to buy a new house again especially from Persimmon.
Kind regards
Paddy
Quote;
'I recall someone having a go at the Dapol representative at the NGS AGM back in 2013 or thereabouts ... and he came back fighting with the fact that Dapol had listened to what modellers said they wanted - crimson Gresleys - so they had produced crimson Gresleys and got their fingers badly burned which left them very disinclined to listen to society surveys rather than their own market research. '
Personally, I shied away from the first issue of Dapol maroon Gresleys as the bogie centres were inaccurate, and didn't look good against a set of Minitrix ones, or even phots and drawings. Even the Mk2 version of these still doesn't look completely right, with the respaced bogie centres, though I have now some of the mk2 version in maroon and also C+C.
What is amazing is the way that Dapol has controlled the price to be very similar (even cheaper? Can't remember) than the first issues.
Martyn
Hi Again,
Speaking as someone who has never bought a car for five figures or owned a car that had at some point in its life been worth five figures, I wish I had been able to find the RRP of a cheaper car in 1990, that's still in production in a more modern form, than a Golf GTi, to use as an example...
My mother lived in a new-build Persimmon Home in Oxford for a while in the 90's (on the old Rewley Road station site) - a truly awfully-put together building, which she moved out of again as soon as she could. On the other hand, if she was still alive and still owned it, it would probably be worth about a billion pounds now...
To avoid N gauge becoming a rich man's hobby, I think it behoves us to come up with as many cheapo modelling projects as possible. Here's a photo of the remote-part-of-Scotland oil depot I've been building recently.
The tank and some of the details are from a Kibri kit (cheap second hand purchase), other bits (including most of the pipework and the little shed) are scratchbuilt. The railings on the top of the tank are cut down and hot-water-bent Kestrel fence, the 'bund' wall is shaved down Peco platform edging, the door of the hut is a side-wall from a never-built GWR pagoda shelter and the hut roof was cut out of a spare planked floor from an NGS wagon kit. It's far from perfect but the whole lot (the pipes extend far enough to service five tankers at once) probably cost less than the TTA wagon.
Regards,
Mat
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/94/8627-300520125217.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=94517)
Quote from: njee20 on May 30, 2020, 10:27:19 AM
I've got a couple of 90s, but all later Chinese releases, and actually I don't use them because they look poor alongside other contemporary models.
Perhaps tangential to the thread, but with some work they can be detailed up. All the basics are there - a good body shape, reliable mechanism. Adding front end details, and also uprating the wheels can get you a long way.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/4197/34925616876_7fe8bca1ab_h.jpg)
(this has had later wheels fitted subsequently - those from new tool 57, which are even closer to scale).
Cheers,
Alan
That is some clever modelling Mat using just 'bits'. :thumbsup:
Quote from: Dr Al on May 30, 2020, 08:44:25 PM
Perhaps tangential to the thread, but with some work they can be detailed up. All the basics are there - a good body shape, reliable mechanism. Adding front end details, and also uprating the wheels can get you a long way.
Yeah I fitted a PH Designs kit on one, which looked far better, then I sold it, and have yet to do another! The printed lights and the bogie mounted air dam are the worst.
The body shape is alright, but it's not perfect; the cab roof is wrong. They're a simple design though, which helps.
Quote from: njee20 on May 30, 2020, 09:57:46 PM
The printed lights and the bogie mounted air dam are the worst.
That's what does it for me with earlier Farish models. When I started modelling again about 15 years ago I asked for a CL158 as a Christmas present.
Apart from testing it, I've never run it on the layout as the printed lights and doors really let it down alongside my CL156's and CL150's.
And now I've gone to DCC it's destined to be donated to my Grandson's Kato layout.
Regards,
John P
I have been following this topic with a good deal of interest, but have nothing much to add except to the comment from PGN (on 28th May). I have been running N gauge locos since 1976 and at one time in the 1980s could boast that I owned at least one example of EVERY uk loco available in N gauge (and most of the kits as well). By way of comparison I own over 70 of them today, restrict myself to buying from one era, but still cannot come anywhere near same boast. If you look at old copies of Railway Modeller from the 1970s you will see continental N gauge locos being run on uk layouts simply because of the lack of variety.
Incidentally, my 1st loco was the Farish 94XX tank with the 'new' motor and I used it on my layout for a while last week. Noisy and basic, but still doing what it was bought for!
I think a few of the replies here prove that you can enjoy this hobby no matter your budget.
MatP literally spent 1/10th what I would have doing that scene, it doesn't make either of us right or guarantee I'd achieve a better outcome. It does however prove this isn't an elitist or rich man's hobby - it is what you want it to be!
It's the same for any hobby, take cycling. There are people quite happy with a £500 bike and will ride it for years. There are however, people who spend 5-10k on their bike and gear, and keep spending... to do exactly the same thing, ride.
Shooting, angling, golfing... you name it. The budgets vary from literally a few quid right up to £100,000+.
One things for sure, collecting stock is highly addictive and we need to seek therapy on a regular basis.
Quote from: jpendle on May 31, 2020, 12:04:03 AM
Quote from: njee20 on May 30, 2020, 09:57:46 PM
The printed lights and the bogie mounted air dam are the worst.
That's what does it for me with earlier Farish models. When I started modelling again about 15 years ago I asked for a CL158 as a Christmas present.
Apart from testing it, I've never run it on the layout as the printed lights and doors really let it down alongside my CL156's and CL150's.
And now I've gone to DCC it's destined to be donated to my Grandson's Kato layout.
Regards,
John P
This is just an observation, not a criticism; back in the early 1990s that is all we had. I have one of these 158s (it's still in the loft) and thought it was a great model at the time; it was good, for its time. Things have definitely improved in the last 25 years since I was modelling regularly, my new class 37 is magnificent compared to my old Poole Farish 37s but I still love them. Looks like I'll be running 2 fleets of 37s in the future.
Quote from: Ted on May 31, 2020, 10:45:14 AM
I think a few of the replies here prove that you can enjoy this hobby no matter your budget.
MatP literally spent 1/10th what I would have doing that scene, it doesn't make either of us right or guarantee I'd achieve a better outcome. It does however prove this isn't an elitist or rich man's hobby - it is what you want it to be!
I absolutely agree with this - It doesn't have to be very expensive if you are willing to either shop around or make your own. While I was still planning to get some scenery done (that's all gone out of the window now, my tremors are to blame) it wasn't something I would have had to budget a fortune for.
There's of course cheaper hobbies, but not that many. If I have a look at the money I blow on cars or the RC drone ... :goggleeyes:
I've written this post so many times I just Googled it to find the last time I wrote it!
My take is that entry to model railways is cheap (still). You can buy a starter set for £100 and be away. You need never spend another pound, those models will, broadly speaking, work for decades. That makes it cheaper than many of the other hobbies mentioned. What makes it expensive is that people then want to grow their collection. That's their choice, and the limit there has always been driven by a number of factors, including cost.
Meanwhile, over in the 1:32 world of Gauge 1, if you're wondering what to do with 23,000 spare Euros, here's a suggestion:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdHYzOk-D8k (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdHYzOk-D8k)
Hi,
Please don't take this as a snipe at people who have been quite rightly pointing out that there are plenty of other hobbies out there that can be as or more expensive as N gauge modelling.
There are plenty of people out there who don't spend thousands of pounds on N gauge not because they have spent it on other hobbies but because they don't have thousands of pounds to spend.
Building an N gauge layout is almost certainly cheaper than collecting MacLaren F1's, Gutenberg Bibles, bottles of 19th-century French Brandy or toilet rolls. That doesn't mean it's cheap.
By the same token, building an N gauge layout is usually dearer than going for walks in the park (unless you get mugged a lot), doing crosswords, singing in the church choir or knitting. That doesn't mean it has to be expensive.
There are good reasons why my five Seacows are now worth about the same as I paid for my 1:1 scale narrow gauge tipper wagon, but I also know which one gives me the more entertainment per pound.
Anyway, at the moment I'm building a road overbridge out of card, MDF offcuts and Scalescenes brickpaper printed onto self-adhesive A4 sheets. That's quite cheap. However, I confess I also have the air-conditioning on (my house has a fully-fitted system) as I hate hot weather. That's not cheap.
Best Wishes,
Mat
That's sort of the point I was trying to make. Yes, you can spend thousands, but people who do are probably in a minority, and you absolutely don't have to spend thousands full stop. Either becuase you've comitted that spend to other hobbies, or you simply don't have/don't want to spend that. Other hobbies (and yes I accept singing in a choir or crosswords aren't the same) have a higher cost of entry, and higher ongoing costs.
Another point I think relevant to model railways and the 'value' (perceived or otherwise) is the high resale values. We've had several references to cycling, but it's something I know a lot about, so I'll revisit that analogy. The classic rule of thumb is that a bike is worth 50% of it's new price, less 10% year-on-year. There are very, very few total exceptions to that - something going up in value is virtually unheard of, on the presumption it's used, and even unused is very rare.
Compare that to model railways - I'll often buy things I'm not entirely sure if I want/need because I'm confident that after 6 months, a year, 5 years, I can just sell it for close to what I paid or even a slight (or massive) profit.
I was very fortunate to get bikes at a heavily subsidised price (basically half) for a number of years, I'd sell them off after c9 months of use, but even at 50% of new value the market was so small that it was really hard to find buyers. Conversely CJM locos and dutch seacows seem to have an inexhaustive number of people paying significant sums!
Life is expensive, just simple fact of living unfortunately.
If you want an expensive hobby that makes N gauge look like a paupers past time try competing horses!!!!
My good lady competes at BE Intermediate level, wont mean much to many but what it means to me is ££££££, we dont have a truck with living in, but we still rebuilt the trailer, need a decent tow car and 4days worth of food for every competition she competes in, plus a bed each night.
The horses cost the same as the aforementioned Golf GTI, each one goes through £100 shoes every month, unless they throw one competing, they cost us probably £3000 on feed and bedding each year, that would need a stable ontop if we didnt own them.
Vets fees are considerable even if they dont injure themselves. Just as an example one not too long ago smashed its jaw on the stable door, it was rushed to Oakham for emergency surgery into the middle of the night, its jaw was wired up, 3 teeth replaced and spent 3 days recovering in hospital, came home with a suitcase of drugs and a bill for £7000!!!!!!
She treated herself to a new saddle for one with a list of extras as long as the horses leg and that came in at £5000
She needs boots, jackets, hats, gloves, shirts, johds,other boots and other gloves.
They are insured, they need work 6 days a week, they have a hydro treadmill in it's own building with a solarium for heat treatment and for something that just eats grass they probably cost £50k a year!!!!! Still at least she only has 2!!!!
Sometimes they wont even compete because theyll injure themselves or she will but they still need to be ready to compete and the work still has to be done.
She doesnt have sponsorship and everything is paid out of our own pocket, so in comparison even a 48ft layout in it's own barn is cheap compared to mid level 3day eventing!!!!
Ye Gods, Craig! :o
Although.....................
Quote from: exmouthcraig on June 01, 2020, 04:11:31 PM
each one goes through £100 shoes every month, unless they throw one competing
£100 a month for shoes is nothing compared to my ex and she certainly threw them (at me) if I complained!
@exmouthcraig (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=5099) I feel your pain.
We bred four foals and someone said "wow, free horses".
Yeah right. One foal ran up a £4000 vets bill in its first week! The mare ran milk before the foal was born, so all the colostrum was lost, meaning the foal got no antibodies, meaning daily plasma transfers centifuged from the mares blood. I kid you not, I reckon I could raise Unicorns cheaper. That same foal cost £10k in vets bills in its first year.
We had to take one of our horses into the vets for a leg op a few years later and the vet nurse went to put our Storm into a ratty stable rather than the spanking new ones the other side, at which point my blood pressure went up, my fuse blew and I let rip on just how many 10's of thousands my wife had put their way over the previous few years.
We had a lovely airy, roomy, posh stable sharpish.
Then there's the insurance. Goes up most years, but they exclude any part of the animal that's had a claim. My wife no longer insures the two that are left as they've so many exclusions we can't fathom out which bits are actually covered.
And the shoeing, and the annual jabs, bedding, supplements, feed, hay, fencing, field shelter repairs.
But...
...and it's a good but {snigger}, I wouldn't want her NOT to have them.
Because it doesn't matter how much I spend on my shooting and modelling, I'll always have spent less than her.
So, y'know, it has its compensations.
;)
Mines adamant that these are the last 2 she has, I hope shes joking because theres at least 4hrs a day that I'd have to see her, I'd never get a layout built :D
Weve never spent that much time together!!!! Mind you wed be millionaires within 10years so.........
Quote from: exmouthcraig on June 01, 2020, 05:09:08 PM
Mines adamant that these are the last 2 she has, I hope shes joking because theres at least 4hrs a day that I'd have to see her, I'd never get a layout built :D
Weve never spent that much time together!!!! Mind you wed be millionaires within 10years so.........
Oh man, don't fall for that one. I've heard 'em all. "I'm going to get rid of them", "I don't know why I waste my time", etc., etc., etc.
I will say this though, I don't pay a penny towards them, she covers it all herself. Fair play.
:goggleeyes: and there was me thinking my flying hobby was expensive...........
Quote from: 37214 on June 01, 2020, 08:46:19 PM
:goggleeyes: and there was me thinking my flying hobby was expensive...........
Flying, flying! That's pocket money stuff that is.
;D
What's sort of flying?
Quote from: emjaybee on June 01, 2020, 09:05:51 PM
Quote from: 37214 on June 01, 2020, 08:46:19 PM
:goggleeyes: and there was me thinking my flying hobby was expensive...........
Flying, flying! That's pocket money stuff that is.
;D
What's sort of flying
Compared to horses, yes. Mostly Touring Motor Glider, Diamond HK36 Super Dimona but prior to Clovis, had moved onto Piper PA28 Warrior.
Before power flying it was all gliders. Plan to buy shares in both SEP and a glider once I retire.
Quote from: 37214 on June 01, 2020, 09:17:58 PM
Quote from: emjaybee on June 01, 2020, 09:05:51 PM
Quote from: 37214 on June 01, 2020, 08:46:19 PM
:goggleeyes: and there was me thinking my flying hobby was expensive...........
Flying, flying! That's pocket money stuff that is.
;D
What's sort of flying
Compared to horses, yes. Mostly Touring Motor Glider, Diamond HK36 Super Dimona but prior to Clovis, had moved onto Piper PA28 Warrior.
Before power flying it was all gliders. Plan to buy shares in both SEP and a glider once I retire.
Nice! Have you got a pilots licence?
2 - LAPL(S) - Light Aircraft Pilot Licence (Sailplanes) for gliding and motorglider and LAPL(A) - Light Aircraft Pilot Licence (Aeroplane) for Single Engine Piston.
I tried to post pictures of the aircraft I fly but I keep getting an error saying only PDF format allowed. If you google G-OSFB, that's the Dimona motorglider and G-BTRY is the PA28 I was flying pre-Covid.
Quote from: 37214 on June 01, 2020, 09:26:07 PM
2 - LAPL(S) - Light Aircraft Pilot Licence (Sailplanes) for gliding and motorglider and LAPL(A) - Light Aircraft Pilot Licence (Aeroplane) for Single Engine Piston.
I tried to post pictures of the aircraft I fly but I keep getting an error saying only PDF format allowed. If you google G-OSFB, that's the Dimona motorglider and G-BTRY is the PA28 I was flying pre-Covid.
Good stuff! Very cool.
Quote from: Newportnobby on June 01, 2020, 04:23:41 PM
£100 a month for shoes is nothing compared to my ex and she certainly threw them (at me) if I complained!
Well some would say she either missed or didn't throw hard enough! ;)
Quote from: acko22 on June 01, 2020, 11:36:40 PM
Quote from: Newportnobby on June 01, 2020, 04:23:41 PM
£100 a month for shoes is nothing compared to my ex and she certainly threw them (at me) if I complained!
Well some would say she either missed or didn't throw hard enough! ;)
mick must have been able to jump out the way a lot quicker..... good job as we love his input enthusiasm and knowledge here . Seriously the cost of my n gauge was due to space limitations not costs and funded by selling my 00 items after my late Grandfather passed away and late Gran had to move to a care home. So a smaller flat. I had an interest in N so sold my 00 and if like downsized
Hi all,
So just had a read through from what @Rabbitaway (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=2967) originally posted, and avoiding @Newportnobby (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=264) and his shoe dodging / catching antics ;)
My take on his original post is about what can be achieved with costs,
So you have 3 levels:
1 - Function over form - 16.99 RC helicopter or a Tomix motorized chassis - both do the function but beyond don't have a physical appearance of a real design.
2 - Function with some form - Mid range RC helicopters that look like an apache helicopter but there are inaccuracies - Pick a model but for me some of the Dapol 86s , there are inaccuracies but for the price I won't complain at all in fact give me some more! (well until work bin them all then I don't care :-[ )
3 - Function and form - Well in this range for RC helicopters it gets real silly money if you want it to look perfect as well as function as close as feasible as the real thing - For N gauge truth be told this is the market for new models, not silly money but we want the function and from so it has to work right and look like the real thing or as close as can be achieved.
So I do think there is a market for all in N gauge just as in RC helicopters but its ho far do you want to go? I do know about top end RC helicopters before I came back to n gauge I was very very close to buying a 1:20 fully working model of an Apache you really couldn't tell it apart for the real thing, but the price well makes N gauge look really cheap, I was about to fly back to the UK after 9 months in sandier climates and it would have cost me half my tour wages!
Safe to say the sanity returned when balanced my choices not to buy and return home, or buy it and never return home as the domestic boss who as @red_death (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=246) can vouch is very Scottish and even more batty would have been more of a danger to my life than the folks I had been having a "loud chat" with for 9 months!
Quote from: acko22 on June 02, 2020, 03:19:09 AM
and avoiding @Newportnobby (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=264) and his shoe dogging antics ;)
Well it takes all sorts I suppose :goggleeyes:
John P
Quote from: jpendle on June 02, 2020, 04:04:02 AM
Quote from: acko22 on June 02, 2020, 03:19:09 AM
and avoiding @Newportnobby (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=264) and his shoe dogging antics ;)
Well it takes all sorts I suppose :goggleeyes:
John P
Shhhhh quick correction and it never happened, or i just blame it on no sleep! :smackedface:
Quote from: jpendle on June 02, 2020, 04:04:02 AM
Quote from: acko22 on June 02, 2020, 03:19:09 AM
and avoiding @Newportnobby (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=264) and his shoe dogging antics ;)
Well it takes all sorts I suppose :goggleeyes:
Is that a requirement to be a Mod?
:confused2:
Quote from: emjaybee on June 02, 2020, 07:54:39 AM
Quote from: jpendle on June 02, 2020, 04:04:02 AM
Quote from: acko22 on June 02, 2020, 03:19:09 AM
and avoiding @Newportnobby (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=264) and his shoe dogging antics ;)
Well it takes all sorts I suppose :goggleeyes:
Is that a requirement to be a Mod?
:confused2:
The initiation ceremony is truly a sight to behold.
Quote from: railsquid on June 02, 2020, 08:28:23 AM
Quote from: emjaybee on June 02, 2020, 07:54:39 AM
Quote from: jpendle on June 02, 2020, 04:04:02 AM
Quote from: acko22 on June 02, 2020, 03:19:09 AM
and avoiding @Newportnobby (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=264) and his shoe dogging antics ;)
Well it takes all sorts I suppose :goggleeyes:
Is that a requirement to be a Mod?
:confused2:
The initiation ceremony is truly a sight to behold.
shoe dodging think I will give that a miss. And stick to the enjoyment of trains
Quote from: railsquid on June 02, 2020, 08:28:23 AM
Quote from: emjaybee on June 02, 2020, 07:54:39 AM
Quote from: jpendle on June 02, 2020, 04:04:02 AM
Quote from: acko22 on June 02, 2020, 03:19:09 AM
and avoiding @Newportnobby (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=264) and his shoe dogging antics ;)
Well it takes all sorts I suppose :goggleeyes:
Is that a requirement to be a Mod?
:confused2:
The initiation ceremony is truly a sight to behold.
:sick2:
@acko22 (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=4166)
Too late, Gareth. I spotted it earlier this morning :)
Yes, I have been guilty of shoe dodging but am completely innocent of shoe dogging.
If anyone suggests otherwise I'll be round to put the boot in :laugh:
Quote from: Newportnobby on June 02, 2020, 10:10:53 AM
Yes, I have been guilty of shoe dodging but am completely innocent of shoe dogging.
If anyone suggests otherwise I'll be round to put the boot in :laugh:
Cue the cries of "that's never a foot" :D
Quote from: Only Me on June 01, 2020, 10:12:37 PM
Quote from: 37214 on June 01, 2020, 09:26:07 PM
2 - LAPL(S) - Light Aircraft Pilot Licence (Sailplanes) for gliding and motorglider and LAPL(A) - Light Aircraft Pilot Licence (Aeroplane) for Single Engine Piston.
I tried to post pictures of the aircraft I fly but I keep getting an error saying only PDF format allowed. If you google G-OSFB, that's the Dimona motorglider and G-BTRY is the PA28 I was flying pre-Covid.
You are trying to add a picture to the pdf files!! Just click add picture at the bottom of your next post in the quick reply box...
"Add image to post and upload to gallery"
Nope, didn't work. Which is strange as I have posted pictures before from this device.
I like it when a post about a small RC helicopter is now running to 8 pages and with entertaining jokes
Now back to flying the now 2 small helicopters into the furniture with my daughter, they are still in one piece for now, well at least you can get spares, more than can be said for my laid up Dapol 66 with split gears
I better watch out for that Ming vase
:D
Quote from: Rabbitaway on June 02, 2020, 08:58:20 PM
I better watch out for that Ming vase
:D
Show it no mercy!
That brings back a Flash of memory! ;)
Yes, Gordon he's alive
Hi All,
I ducked out of this topic for a bit to avoid turning into a Marxist (and posted some layout photos in the "What's happening on your layout" thread instead). Anyway, and with apologies for spoiling the humour (which is what we all really need right now), I've come up with some more figures, which will hopefully neither bore nor annoy you, but probably will.
In 1990, the mean-average UK income (all adults) was £23,570; now (well, before the lockdown) it is £34,200. Leaving out changes in the buying power of a pound, but on raw "number of pounds" figures only, that's an increase of 45%. The rate of increase of the median income over the same period, incidentally, is 45.5%.
In 1990, the RRP of a new Farish Mk1 was £6. Now it's £36. That's an increase of 500%.
In 1990, the RRP of a new Farish 37 was £40. Now it's £135. That's an increase of 237.5%.
In 1990, the RRP of the cheapest new Farish train set with a controller was £65. Now it's £200. That's an increase of 208%.
For various reasons, the secondhand price of that 1990's MK1 is now about £18 (on a good day - increase of 200%; the secondhand price of that 1990's 37 is now about £65 (on a good day increase of, amazingly, only 65%).
For some good and some less good reasons, the RRPs of models from the core brand of UK N gauge have gone up far faster than the average person's buying power. So have many (but by no means all) secondhand items. This is inevitably going to have affected the demographic of N gauge modellers, is it not?
Also, the fact that rolling stock seems to be where the really massive price rises have taken place, might influence the types of layout being built?
Or do the above figures have very little effect, if it is actually the case that most current N gauge modellers are either people who have been doing it since forever or people who are wealthy or dedicated enough to keep buying large amounts of RTR? Are Farish 'preaching to the choir'?
I would love it if people could offer some similar figures from other, comparable hobbies. In the meantime, I'll stop boring / insulting you and go back to papier-mache scenery, using some old newspapers I found in the loft. I've just been landscaping around an overbridge using an Eastern Daily Press letters page - every letter is about Brexit. Ooh, the nostalgia...
Best Wishes,
Mat P.
Hi Mat,
Good post.
I suspect that part of the issue here is that, for a variety of reasons, salaries clearly have not kept pace with other inflationary costs - be they model trains, white goods or houses.
This page may help: https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/knowledgebank/how-have-prices-changed-over-time (https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/knowledgebank/how-have-prices-changed-over-time)
Secondly, there's a big clue in the relatively low second hand value of the old Farish 37. To me, that is a reflection on the demands for improved quality that have, in part, driven the price rises.
Cheers
Ben A.
@MatP (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=8627)
But no mention of the Chinese government decree that wages in China had to rise by 20% per year for 5 years in the 2000s. Now, and without getting political, imagine the same had happened in this country and many of the percentage increases quoted would be much reduced.
I still fail to see how a Dapol coach is almost half the price of a Farish one (although there is no direct comparison to make e.g. Mk1 to Mk1). Loco wise they are not too dissimilar.
Hi @MatP (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=8627)
Interesting numbers and to my mind the "buying power" of people's incomes have reduced significantly since 1990. In part this has been masked by importing deflation from China (and other low cost manufacturing countries) during that period. What we are seeing now is some of the impact from:
* The year 2000 .COM crash
* 9/11
* Second Iraq war
* Afghan conflict
* Libyan conflict
* Syrian conflict
and the biggest of the lot (so far)... the 2008 financial crisis. These have all led to vast levels of governmental debt which has been serviced by artificially low interest rates and QE.
Sadly CV19 is the cherry on top of the cake and only the good Lord knows where we will go from here. Hopefully the cost of toy trains will be worst of our problems (no levity intended).
Enough politics though, taking the MK1 coach as an example - it is hard to compare a Farish Poole MK1 from 1990 to its modern day counterpart:
1990 MK1
1. Pizza cutter wheels
2. One type of bogie
3. Generic under-frame
4. Clear printed sides/detail (in the main)
5. One type of roof
6. Only three coach types (brake, composite and buffet)
7. No pipe detail
8. Limited and relatively low detailed printing/livery
2020 MK1
1. Fine, blackened wheels
2. Several types of bogie
3. Specific under-frames for each coach
4. Specific molded bodies for each coach
5. Specific roof for each coach
6. Several coach types (brake, composite, buffet, Sleeper, All First etc.)
7. Pipe detail
8. High quality and detailed printing/livery
If Farish were manufacturing MK1 coaches to this level in Poole back in 1990 then I am sure they would have cost a lot more than £6? To get a real feel you would need to do exactly this:
1. Produce a 2020 detailed MK1 model in Poole back in 1990 and work out the RRP
2. Produce a 1990 detailed MK1 model in China today and work out the RRP
Even then the above does not take volumes in to account. I have no idea how many MK1s Farish in Poole sold back in 1990 vs Bachmann today?
Don't get me wrong, there is no doubting that the cost of models has increased significantly (from our perspective) over the last 3-5 years. Whenever discussing prices though, one must remember "value" which is very much a personal thing based on circumstance, desire etc.
Coming back to cars - if all everyone wanted to do was to get from A to B then we would all buy Dacia Sanderos @ £6,995 rather than Audis, BMWs, Mercedes, Jaguars etc. etc. at 4x the price!
Time to put on my tin helmet and head for the Anderson shelter or as I like to call it "Post CV19 apocalyptic Shelter".
:D
Kind regards
Paddy
I told you, you're not coming back in. I warned you not to venture out. You'll have to find another one.
One additional point I would make though... in British N gauge there is not an a la carte menu option when it comes to models. No doubt this is simply a reflection of market size? For example, returning to the MK1 coach above it is a one size fits all option. One cannot chose to swap detail/finesse for a lower cost - it is simply a case of take it or leave it.
The vast majority of my own MK1 fleet is based on the upgraded models that Farish released when they moved production to China. For me, the improved build quality, finer wheels coupled with the enhanced liveries (e.g. printing on the under-frame, coach ends etc.) was the compromise I was happy with.
The latest MK1s are exquisite and I would not criticise anyone for buying these but each to their own.
Kind regards
Paddy
Hi All,
To Paddy's list of negative economic factors you could also add the recession in the early 1990's - the level of damage it did to the UK is, in my opinion, difficult to over-estimate. It also did British Rail an immense amount of harm.
I didn't mention the Chinese wages regulations again, as these were brought up earlier in the thread and I was taking it as read that we all knew about them. But these wage rises and increased quality are IMHO not the only factors explaining higher prices - a lot of it has to do with, again in my humble opinion, scarcity of supply. Now, whether that's to do with production capacity in China, or deliberate restriction of supply to keep prices high, is another question. Apart from saying they won't make any more Seacows (or, I think, Grainflows), what else have Farish done in their product choice and design ethos to mitigate the rising costs in China and the difficulty of getting production slots there? Anything?
For me, personally, a lot of modern RTR is over-specified. 1990's models had lots of shortcomings but now, I believe, the pendulum has swung too far the other way. A lot of the improvements over 1990's models are things you simply can't see when a train is in motion. Modern Farish locos are frequently a lot lighter than earlier versions, due to, for instance, plastic bodyshells on steam locos, and the devotion of large volumes of space to electronics. And gears still crack.
I suspect that my fundamental problem is that I am simply too far below the average income level of the dominant class of contemporary N gauge modeller, the sort of person who seems to want maximum accuracy, cost not a problem.
Even if the current Farish pricing is 100% justifiable or 100% explainable (not of course the same things), it is still going to have an impact on the size and composition of the UK N gauge modelling community (and especially on new recruits).
Many people have suggested that UK N gauge needs a budget range. The standard answer to this is that the market isn't big enough to support one. But if prices continue to rise beyond people's ability to pay, then the market will get even smaller, and you end up with a self-fulfilling prophecy.
I agree with the comments made about Dapol coaches and would love it if Dapol could start producing Mk1's of comparable quality / price to their existing ranges of coaches... One thing I didn't refer to when talking about Mk1 coaches in 1990 is that the Minitrix ones were also then available and at least 10% more expensive than the Farish!
I'm sure most of you are bored to death with this email by now but I hope you will forgive me for adding that I have expressed an interest in a RevolutioN Class 89 and fully intend to buy one. My reaction to hearing that it might happen was similar to the theme tune of the movie "Team America" but changing "America" in those lyrics to "Class 89". It is for me quite a lot of money, but worth it for a special, one-off loco, as opposed to a storecupboard staple. I just hope that Farish, by comparison, don't go further down the road of catering mainly for the modeller who already has (almost) everything.
Anyway, I think my papier-mache is dry now, so I will go away and do some modelling.
Mat
Quote from: MatP on June 05, 2020, 10:40:33 AM
In 1990, the mean-average UK income (all adults) was £23,570; now (well, before the lockdown) it is £34,200. Leaving out changes in the buying power of a pound, but on raw "number of pounds" figures only, that's an increase of 45%. The rate of increase of the median income over the same period, incidentally, is 45.5%.
Best Wishes,
Mat P.
What was your source for the income data? This UK government source gives the 1992/93 figure as £11500 before tax, which implies that income halved between your 1990 figure and 1992/93. It did not. The only ONS source for 1990 I can find gives the 1990 figure as 12084 per annum, which matches much better with the £11500 for 1992/93. Changes the perspective a bit. See Table 3.1 at this link for the 1992/3 figure. https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/258888/tables3-1_3-10.pdf
As an aside the average United States Household income in 1990 was USD 37403, when the USD/GBP rate ended the year at 1.92.
Hi @MatP (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=8627)
Oops, sorry forgot about the 1990s recession. To be honest, despite Politicians telling us otherwise the western economies have been deteriorating for decades. As I stated earlier, a lot of this has been masked but as some point the bill will have to paid.
You are correct that it is often stated that the British N gauge market is not big enough to support a "budget" range. However, I think it is probably more accurate to say that the market cannot support both. It would be interesting (some may say disastrous?) to see what would happen if there was a good budget range available. For example, if you could get the Poole MK1 coaches as Farish(Bachmann) released them back in the mid-2000s for say £20 (£17 discounted) would they sell? Would they effectively destroy the market for the latest super-detailed versions?
Manufacturers keep telling us that they produce the models their customers want (in simple terms) and the demand is for super-detailed. I do believe it is wrong to think that most of the people buying high cost, new RTR items are well-off. People will (if possible) stretch their finances to obtain that must-have desirable item whether it is wine, jewellery, cars, tech or toy trains etc. Again, it is not about the cost but rather ones personal "value" position. My own stock is a mix of LIMA, Minitrix, Dapol, Farish(Poole), Farish(Bachmann) etc. where each model was obtained because "I wanted it" and this therefore justified the "cost" to me i.e. it was of value.
As you pointed out yourself, you feel it is worth paying the price of RevolutioN's proposed Class 89 i.e. you see "value" in that particular purchase.
Actually, I personally agree with you in that I think a lot of the latest models are too detailed which pushes the prices up. I would also like to see manufacturers focus a wee bit more on robustness and reliability rather than the latest new feature/detail. I fear we are very much in the minority though as Hornby's experience with "Design Clever" would seem to confirm.
Good luck with the papier-mache.
Kind regards
Paddy
Quote from: MatP on June 05, 2020, 10:40:33 AM
I would love it if people could offer some similar figures from other, comparable hobbies. In the meantime, I'll stop boring / insulting you and go back to papier-mache scenery, using some old newspapers I found in the loft. I've just been landscaping around an overbridge using an Eastern Daily Press letters page - every letter is about Brexit. Ooh, the nostalgia...
Not sure it constitutes comparable, but cycling compares even less favourably, frankly! There's not necessarily the same lineage as with models, so to say "x is a new version of y" is harder, but in 1999 the most expensive mountain bike in Specialized's (huge manufacturer) range was the S-Works FSR XC, it was £2,600. The 2020 version is £9,000. With road bikes a 2002 Trek 5900 was £3500, the 2020 equivalent is £11,500, so more than a 300% increase in 18 years. This is broadly the same with parts too, although I'd say that complete bikes have probably gone up more quickly than the sum of their parts, if that makes sense. Like trains, technology has moved on, but the external factors of rising labour costs are inevitably a huge factor.
Quote from: MatP on June 05, 2020, 12:41:13 PM
I suspect that my fundamental problem is that I am simply too far below the average income level of the dominant class of contemporary N gauge modeller, the sort of person who seems to want maximum accuracy, cost not a problem.
The fact remains we, as individuals, choose what to spend our disposable income on. Being on a small private pension and the state pension I luckily have money to spend on 'fripperies'.
These do not include holidays, drinking, smoking or a new car. However, there will be a line drawn between what I want and the cost of said wants. Cost will always be an issue at some point.
For me I would say that the biggest rise in cost for model railways now is the price of DCC equipment. You can spend shedloads controlling your points, making your locos have sound, etc etc but most of what can be done with DCC can be done in other ways. These may be more labour intensive (more wiring for instance) or just different (speakers under the layout and prerecorded sound instead of chips at £100 a pop) but it does seem churlish to say that locos and stock are expensive when the accessories are just as bad. I remember an RM article where a guy put lights, firebox glow, sound etc into a £120 Hornby T9 and it came to over £400. That's barmy in my eyes.
I try to keep costs down by buying secondhand, building my own, keeping to tried and tested DC technologies, but all the while trying to avoid buying older Poole or Chinese Bachman, etc. Value for money in your chosen hobby is very relative. What's good for one will be too expensive for another, c'est la vie!
I just had a quick look at various sources on the web and the data is very confusing because everyone has a different take on 'income', even the ONS.
Finding a figure for MEDIAN salary was very difficult. The ONS shows median disposable income, but then you have to find their definition of disposable income.
There's also the habit of using average and median interchangeably. For any debate like this, it is the median that matters, i.e. what is the salary earned by the greatest number of people in the country.
But to paraphrase some important historical French bloke
"the art of taxation pricing N Gauge models consists in so plucking the goose as to obtain the largest possible amount of feathers with the smallest possible amount of hissing."
So the various manufacturers don't care what people earn, as long as there are enough retailers/customers to buy the models that they make at the prices that they set.
Regards,
John P
Quote from: Southerngooner on June 05, 2020, 03:38:58 PM
I remember an RM article where a guy put lights, firebox glow, sound etc into a £120 Hornby T9 and it came to over £400. That's barmy in my eyes.
Maybe to you it's barmy but to him it wasn't. Anyone paying CJM prices would not consider themselves barmy either. It's what they want to spend their money on and no one can argue against it.
Quote from: Southerngooner on June 05, 2020, 03:38:58 PM
Value for money in your chosen hobby is very relative. What's good for one will be too expensive for another, c'est la vie!
Exactement, mon ami. To a certain extent the whole discussion is moot. Any hobby is not expensive if it can be afforded. If it can't be afforded to one's satisfaction then don't do it.
Simples.
The posts today make very interesting reading; from my point of view coming back to N-gauge after 25 years, the price difference is noticeable. Whilst a new DCC Farish 37 is affordable, do I want to pay that amount for what is to my mind, a toy train? Now some will probably howl at that description and insist that it is a detailed miniature replica but at the end of the day, to me, it is a toy. (Preparing for a backlash here, I'm bound to be unpopular now).
I think N-gauge is affordable by buying secondhand Poole Farish and renovating it, which is what I did when I first got into this hobby. Compared to the new products, obviously the quality difference is substantial but what is it that is the aim? If it's to run a few trains and enjoy fixing locos, building and painting kits, I think this is an acceptable approach. If the aim is to have as close to realism as is possible, then older secondhand is not going to be acceptable to many.
I'm more than content with my 1990's Poole Farish locos, kit built wagons (once I've built them) and my hand painted carriages with TPM inlays. They're not display or show standard but I'm happy with them.
Having said all of the above, I have recently been seduced by a new Farish DCC Class 37 and it is really impressive with its improved detailing and lights. I'm sure that I'll be acquiring a few more in the next few months. I haven't had a chance to see the new carriages in person yet, hopefully some time soon though. Are they really worth £40-45?
And then what about taking that new Farish 37 and fitting sound, for say £130 if you DIY, then sending it to Mercig for a respray and weathering, which adds another £350. You then have a £600 Farish 37. Still just a toy train, but as Nobby absolutely nailed value is purely in the eye of the purchaser, it bears quoting!
Quote from: Newportnobby on June 05, 2020, 04:41:24 PM
...
Maybe to you it's barmy but to him it wasn't. Anyone paying CJM prices would not consider themselves barmy either. It's what they want to spend their money on and no one can argue against it.
...
Exactement, mon ami. To a certain extent the whole discussion is moot. Any hobby is not expensive if it can be afforded. If it can't be afforded to one's satisfaction then don't do it.
Simples.
Some may scrimp and save for one as a super special one off, others may have a whole fleet of so modified locos, whilst others, evidently find it barmy.
The various modelling Facebook groups are full of people moaning about "idiots paying over the odds" for models, usually on eBay, but ultimately it's their money, and theirs alone, if someone wanted to pay £500 for an old Poole model then all power to them! I forget which comedian said it, but it's a bit like driving: anyone going slower than you is a moron, and anyone going faster is a maniac, regardless of your speed!
Quote from: 37214 on June 05, 2020, 05:17:31 PM
The posts today make very interesting reading; from my point of view coming back to N-gauge after 25 years, the price difference is noticeable. Whilst a new DCC Farish 37 is affordable, do I want to pay that amount for what is to my mind, a toy train? Now some will probably howl at that description and insist that it is a detailed miniature replica but at the end of the day, to me, it is a toy. (Preparing for a backlash here, I'm bound to be unpopular now).
Brave, very brave... :D
Mind you, we are not RMWeb! ;)
Kind regards
Paddy
Quote from: 37214 on June 05, 2020, 05:17:31 PM
I haven't had a chance to see the new carriages in person yet, hopefully some time soon though. Are they really worth £40-45?
Down to the individual... For some/many the answer is "yes".
Kind regards
Paddy
Another aspect I would point out is that one person's "old" toy train is another's rare collectors piece. Look at the prices that mint Hornby O Gauge, Hornby Dublo, Wrenn etc. can fetch. Some of these items can make modern British N gauge look cheap! (Oops, sorry should have said good value)
Kind regards
Paddy
I'm heartened that the debate has moved from purely price to price and value as the two are not the same thing. Value is a personal judgement based on personal circumstances and whilst it can be interesting to hear what other people value I'm not sure that it helps as it is so subjective and so personal.
Price is in more ways a simpler and more objective discussion. There are still some fallacies or at least not the whole truth being propagated - my main bug bear is the insistence that detail is pointless (this is an old proxy for "normal viewing distances") and/or that adding detail adds more cost.
On detail is pointless as it can't be seen - that surely depends on the distance that it is viewed from or whether one is viewing images rather than the model. There is no such thing as a normal viewing distance - it entirely depends on your layout, whether you have a layout or even whether your enjoyment is collecting finely detailed models. A model in my hands is viewed at a much closer distance than the same model on the back of someone's layout - the two situations are not the same and differences in detail are very obvious in your hands.
The myth that detail adds more cost - yes, it can add cost but it doesn't have to. Take the example of the Seacows or Grainflows - they were tooled at a time when tooling was expensive but assembly was relatively cheap and have lots of individual parts. Hence with the increase in cost of assembly they become considerably more expensive. If you were tooling a Seacow or Grainflow now you would almost certainly tool it with fewer parts which does not necessarily equate to less detail - you can include detail provided you are smart about it. A lot of modern tooling has some exquisite moulded detail. Even where separate parts are necessary (eg due to tooling limitations) and therefore there is an assembly cost that doesn't necessarily imply that more tools are needed. For example tooling cost is largely driven by the number of different tools you need and the size of those tools - so tools for OO tend to be slightly more expensive than N, but the number of tools may be the same. The number of tools is largely determined by the materials being used and any practical limitations of sets of tooling - so a lot of the time I can add say double the individual parts on a sprue for very little cost as long as they are all on one sprue (tooling for 1 part is where the expense is incurred, adding another 10 parts on the same sprue as long it doesn't complicate the tool adds relatively little cost). So it is far from as simple as more detail = more cost. The converse is also true ie removing complexity and detail doesn't necessarily lead to substantially cheaper prices and why should it given that there are large costs in any new tooling.
Comparing tooling from different times doesn't help you as there are so many variables that you don't know the answers to - the main ones being the pricing policy of the manufacturer and the amortisation of the tooling (ie how many models is the tooling cost split over - that has a massive potential influence on price!). If you have £30,000 of tooling and produce 1000 models then the tooling cost is £30/wagon yet if you produce 3000 wagons then it is £10/wagon - that is tooling alone before unit costs or any level of profit are factored in (all of which pays for the R&D, marketing, back office etc).
To go back to the example of the Farish 37 - Poole Farish shared a chassis between the 37 and 47 which was incorrect for the 37. The Poole 37 doesn't have basic dimensions as being correct let alone shapes! Furthermore Farish introduced a relatively small range at a time with limited choice - that allowed production runs to be larger compared to a more niche model, you are never going to sell as many 89s for example as 37s (and the same is true for many models). Having a smaller range of more popular models allows you to amortise the tooling across more models which helps keep prices low, but then people complain that there isn't a model of X or that such a manufacturer is not introducing new models to the market...
Final point is what can manufacturers do? You only have to look at accounts to see that they are not making massive profits, so if the prices are not generating large profits where can the costs be cut? If reducing detail on new tooling doesn't save you significant amounts then where is the benefit in reducing detail? If smaller ranges that allow you to sell more of a particular model makes N gauge less attractive then the market shrinks. So you have to find a balance somewhere...
Cheers Mike
Don't you be coming in here with your facts and balanced viewpoints Mike! :scowl:
Well that's a reasoned and well thought through response.
What a kill joy.
:(
[Just kiddin']
Hi Mike ( @red_death (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=246) )
You had to go and spoil a good internet flame war! ;)
So I am happy to play Devil's advocate...
Quote from: red_death on June 05, 2020, 06:33:31 PM
I'm heartened that the debate has moved from purely price to price and value as the two are not the same thing. Value is a personal judgement based on personal circumstances and whilst it can be interesting to hear what other people value I'm not sure that it helps as it is so subjective and so personal.
Agreed - mmm, that is not a good start, the Devil has agreed with you! :D
Quote from: red_death on June 05, 2020, 06:33:31 PM
Price is in more ways a simpler and more objective discussion. There are still some fallacies or at least not the whole truth being propagated - my main bug bear is the insistence that detail is pointless (this is an old proxy for "normal viewing distances") and/or that adding detail adds more cost.
On detail is pointless as it can't be seen - that surely depends on the distance that it is viewed from or whether one is viewing images rather than the model. There is no such thing as a normal viewing distance - it entirely depends on your layout, whether you have a layout or even whether your enjoyment is collecting finely detailed models. A model in my hands is viewed at a much closer distance than the same model on the back of someone's layout - the two situations are not the same and differences in detail are very obvious in your hands.
Not sure anyone has said "detail is pointless" in any of the above posts? It is more about what level of detail an individual is willing to pay for. I have just completed reading two Cyril J. Freezer books; "Modelling the Steam Age Railway" and "Model Operation in Accordance with Prototype Practice". In both, Cyril makes this exact point and goes as far as to say that if you want to have lots of detail why on earth do people model in N gauge or even OO! Not necessarily agreeing with Cyril but it is interesting that these views are held all types within the broader hobby.
Quote from: red_death on June 05, 2020, 06:33:31 PM
The myth that detail adds more cost - yes, it can add cost but it doesn't have to. Take the example of the Seacows or Grainflows - they were tooled at a time when tooling was expensive but assembly was relatively cheap and have lots of individual parts. Hence with the increase in cost of assembly they become considerably more expensive. If you were tooling a Seacow or Grainflow now you would almost certainly tool it with fewer parts which does not necessarily equate to less detail - you can include detail provided you are smart about it. A lot of modern tooling has some exquisite moulded detail. Even where separate parts are necessary (eg due to tooling limitations) and therefore there is an assembly cost that doesn't necessarily imply that more tools are needed. For example tooling cost is largely driven by the number of different tools you need and the size of those tools - so tools for OO tend to be slightly more expensive than N, but the number of tools may be the same. The number of tools is largely determined by the materials being used and any practical limitations of sets of tooling - so a lot of the time I can add say double the individual parts on a sprue for very little cost as long as they are all on one sprue (tooling for 1 part is where the expense is incurred, adding another 10 parts on the same sprue as long it doesn't complicate the tool adds relatively little cost). So it is far from as simple as more detail = more cost. The converse is also true ie removing complexity and detail doesn't necessarily lead to substantially cheaper prices and why should it given that there are large costs in any new tooling.
Totally accept that Mike (damn, agreed again :worried: ). A better statement would be that detail which has to be added by hand increases cost? Creating a mold which creates a model that is the correct scale size and with appropriate detail costs as much as one that does not. No doubt as you aware though, if you go down this route too far then you end up like Hornby with "Design Clever". Bottom line, you can't please everyone. What I would say though is that anyone creating a model like this must surely have a view on longer term costs (unless it is a one off production run)? It was obvious even 20 years ago that labour costs in China would rise over the years so designing products with this in mind is common sense.
Quote from: red_death on June 05, 2020, 06:33:31 PM
Comparing tooling from different times doesn't help you as there are so many variables that you don't know the answers to - the main ones being the pricing policy of the manufacturer and the amortisation of the tooling (ie how many models is the tooling cost split over - that has a massive potential influence on price!). If you have £30,000 of tooling and produce 1000 models then the tooling cost is £30/wagon yet if you produce 3000 wagons then it is £10/wagon - that is tooling alone before unit costs or any level of profit are factored in (all of which pays for the R&D, marketing, back office etc).
To go back to the example of the Farish 37 - Poole Farish shared a chassis between the 37 and 47 which was incorrect for the 37. The Poole 37 doesn't have basic dimensions as being correct let alone shapes! Furthermore Farish introduced a relatively small range at a time with limited choice - that allowed production runs to be larger compared to a more niche model, you are never going to sell as many 89s for example as 37s (and the same is true for many models). Having a smaller range of more popular models allows you to amortise the tooling across more models which helps keep prices low, but then people complain that there isn't a model of X or that such a manufacturer is not introducing new models to the market...
Yep, agreed. For me, I would like to see a sort of half-way house where models are accurate in terms of dimensions and have a good level of molded detail. This should be coupled with a rock solid chassis (in terms of locos) and fine livery application. Basically, what Hornby are now calling
Railroad Plus. Hopefully this would provide a range of models which are robust and with less labour content more price stability. However, I accept that this is not the majority view and despite what I have said, I appreciate the fantastic models that are coming out of Bachmann, Dapol (excluding steam locos), PECO and of course RevolutioN.
Quote from: red_death on June 05, 2020, 06:33:31 PM
Final point is what can manufacturers do? You only have to look at accounts to see that they are not making massive profits, so if the prices are not generating large profits where can the costs be cut? If reducing detail on new tooling doesn't save you significant amounts then where is the benefit in reducing detail? If smaller ranges that allow you to sell more of a particular model makes N gauge less attractive then the market shrinks. So you have to find a balance somewhere...
Not sure there is answer Mike. If you reduced hand applied detail to lower retail prices significantly would the market grow? That is the only reason to do it i.e. you sell shed loads more of an item which in turn generates more profit. Personally, I can't see British N gauge growing significantly whatever the models and/or prices. The market for toy/model trains is what it is in this country. Even the OO boys are not making vast sums of money so it is a labour of love. I take my hat off to you for having a go yourself - it must have been a brave decision to put your own money on the line.
Well, so much for being the Devil! :(
Kind regards
Paddy
On the subject of detail, I personally think the higher level of detail is good for modelling.
It makes me want to make better models. My first foray into N was 30+ years ago, and I made wagons to suite the RTR stock I had. If I made them the same way, they'd look odd against the modern RTR stuff. Hence why I'm pushed to do things like lay 6000+ decal rivets on four wagons.
Quote from: emjaybee on June 05, 2020, 08:59:54 PM
lay 6000+ decal rivets on four wagons.
C'mon, that's only 1,500+ per wagon. :goggleeyes:
Quote from: njee20 on June 05, 2020, 05:28:37 PM
And then what about taking that new Farish 37 and fitting sound, for say £130 if you DIY, then sending it to Mercig for a respray and weathering, which adds another £350. You then have a £600 Farish 37. Still just a toy train, but as Nobby absolutely nailed value is purely in the eye of the purchaser, it bears quoting!
Quote from: Newportnobby on June 05, 2020, 04:41:24 PM
...
Maybe to you it's barmy but to him it wasn't. Anyone paying CJM prices would not consider themselves barmy either. It's what they want to spend their money on and no one can argue against it.
...
Exactement, mon ami. To a certain extent the whole discussion is moot. Any hobby is not expensive if it can be afforded. If it can't be afforded to one's satisfaction then don't do it.
Simples.
Some may scrimp and save for one as a super special one off, others may have a whole fleet of so modified locos, whilst others, evidently find it barmy.
The various modelling Facebook groups are full of people moaning about "idiots paying over the odds" for models, usually on eBay, but ultimately it's their money, and theirs alone, if someone wanted to pay £500 for an old Poole model then all power to them! I forget which comedian said it, but it's a bit like driving: anyone going slower than you is a moron, and anyone going faster is a maniac, regardless of your speed!
That's something I won't be doing but if someone wants to do that, as you say, it's their money and I don't have a problem with that.
Quote from: dannyboy on June 05, 2020, 09:18:30 PM
Quote from: emjaybee on June 05, 2020, 08:59:54 PM
lay 6000+ decal rivets on four wagons.
C'mon, that's only 1,500+ per wagon. :goggleeyes:
Actually it's more like 1,550 per wagon!
:moony:
Quote from: Paddy on June 05, 2020, 05:33:03 PM
Quote from: 37214 on June 05, 2020, 05:17:31 PM
The posts today make very interesting reading; from my point of view coming back to N-gauge after 25 years, the price difference is noticeable. Whilst a new DCC Farish 37 is affordable, do I want to pay that amount for what is to my mind, a toy train? Now some will probably howl at that description and insist that it is a detailed miniature replica but at the end of the day, to me, it is a toy. (Preparing for a backlash here, I'm bound to be unpopular now).
Brave, very brave... :D
Mind you, we are not RMWeb! ;)
Kind regards
Paddy
..... or stupid, very stupid :) I used to see the same on a diecast model aircraft forum that I used to frequent. Some people would get so animated about a certain model and very aggressive if it didn't match their expectations. I made the mistake of saying that a certain Boeing 737 looked ok to me as a good representation of the real thing especially as it was only a toy. Wow! The outpouring of hate and anger in response, unbelievable. I left them to it.
Anyway, like most hobbies/pastimes/collections, to me, there is no right or wrong, you get out of it what you want or like. I enjoy reading about other layouts or models that people post, they may not always be to my taste or interest but seeing the pleasure that the poster derives from their endeavours is pleasing.
Quote from: emjaybee on June 05, 2020, 09:37:29 PM
Quote from: dannyboy on June 05, 2020, 09:18:30 PM
Quote from: emjaybee on June 05, 2020, 08:59:54 PM
lay 6000+ decal rivets on four wagons.
C'mon, that's only 1,500+ per wagon. :goggleeyes:
Actually it's more like 1,550 per wagon!
:moony:
Pssst - I can see your rivets when you do that :o
Quote from: Newportnobby on June 05, 2020, 09:57:50 PM
Quote from: emjaybee on June 05, 2020, 09:37:29 PM
Quote from: dannyboy on June 05, 2020, 09:18:30 PM
Quote from: emjaybee on June 05, 2020, 08:59:54 PM
lay 6000+ decal rivets on four wagons.
C'mon, that's only 1,500+ per wagon. :goggleeyes:
Actually it's more like 1,550 per wagon!
:moony:
Pssst - I can see your rivets when you do that :o
:laughabovepost:
Maybe I should have put a golden rivet on them!
Quote from: dannyboy on June 05, 2020, 09:18:30 PM
Quote from: emjaybee on June 05, 2020, 08:59:54 PM
lay 6000+ decal rivets on four wagons.
C'mon, that's only 1,500+ per wagon. :goggleeyes:
Who is going to volunteer to count them ( and get their Rivet Counter badge??)
Quote from: Railwaygun on June 07, 2020, 07:28:43 PM
Quote from: dannyboy on June 05, 2020, 09:18:30 PM
Quote from: emjaybee on June 05, 2020, 08:59:54 PM
lay 6000+ decal rivets on four wagons.
C'mon, that's only 1,500+ per wagon. :goggleeyes:
Who is going to volunteer to count them ( and get their Rivet Counter badge??)
Now, that gives me an idea for a mobile phone app, point the camera at any rivet-bearing item and have it count the visible rivets. Bound to be a great hit at exhibitions!
Quote from: railsquid on June 09, 2020, 06:12:36 AM
Quote from: Railwaygun on June 07, 2020, 07:28:43 PM
Quote from: dannyboy on June 05, 2020, 09:18:30 PM
Quote from: emjaybee on June 05, 2020, 08:59:54 PM
lay 6000+ decal rivets on four wagons.
C'mon, that's only 1,500+ per wagon. :goggleeyes:
Who is going to volunteer to count them ( and get their Rivet Counter badge??)
Now, that gives me an idea for a mobile phone app, point the camera at any rivet-bearing item and have it count the visible rivets. Bound to be a great hit at exhibitions!
You write it, I'll test it!
:D
Quote from: railsquid on June 09, 2020, 06:12:36 AM
Now, that gives me an idea for a mobile phone app, point the camera at any rivet-bearing item and have it count the visible rivets. Bound to be a great hit at exhibitions!
Just re-use some OCR software with everything but the full-stops suppressed :)
(You can tell what a lazy developer I was)
Maybe it's just Farish that have gone over high on prices.
Chinese made Farish BR van rrp- £19 to £21
British made Peco BR van RRP - £7.21
Yes the Farish vans are better detailed but when my train of mixed vans goes past I can't tell which ones are Peco and which ones are Farish. Unless you are in the habit of staring carefully at every wagon I can't see the point of the Farish one. I now buy Peco in preference to Farish where Peco have the right vehicle.
Likewise Farish MK2 rrp - £45.95
Dapol MK3 rrp - £25.95
I find the Dapol MK3 is a fine model and just wish they made mk1s! The pricing is similar across all coaches. In some cases the Farish are better models ( such as Collets Vs Hawksworth) but that's one huge price difference on an eight coach train.
Maybe I'm in the minority but I find the current Dapol and Peco products perfectly acceptable and, due to price, much prefer them to Farish.
Quote from: Chris Morris on June 09, 2020, 06:06:55 PM
I find the Dapol MK3 is a fine model and just wish they made mk1s! The pricing is similar across all coaches. In some cases the Farish are better models ( such as Collets Vs Hawksworth) but that's one huge price difference on an eight coach train.
Maybe I'm in the minority but I find the current Dapol and Peco products perfectly acceptable and, due to price, much prefer them to Farish.
I agree with this statement. At the current prices for Farish MK1/2s I can't afford a full rake so I went with Dapol Mk3s and used Farish MK1/3 stuff. The dapol ones are really nice, same as the peco wagons. For me, and my viewing distance, it's enough.
the 4-car Kato Amtrak Superliner set I have is at around 80 as well - which means roughly 20 per carriage, which seems reasonable, given the Kato quality.
Quote from: Chris Morris on June 09, 2020, 06:06:55 PM
Maybe it's just Farish that have gone over high on prices.
Chinese made Farish BR van rrp- £19 to £21
British made Peco BR van RRP - £7.21
Approaching 40 year old tooling, 1980s tooling costs long written off over many thousands of units.
Common 10ft chassis used across the range which is nearly right for a few but the wrong length for most.
Few types churned out in multiple liveries of which maybe 1 in 10 is accurate for that wagon.
(so cost split over many more units).
vs
Modern tooling paid for at 2000s prices.
Bespoke chassis for each model in 9, 10, & 12 ft wheelbases and at least 3 variants of brake gear.
Many more variations designed, mostly accurate combinations of features provided for each livery (so few produced of each type to spread the tooling costs).
Or to put it another way;
Affordability vs Accuracy
Ain't it nice to have a choice! :D
I'll support anyone makng the choice that suits then best. I will argue strongly with anyone who claims theirs is the only correct choice and others who think differently should be denied a choice...
For me the loco is the star and the wagons merely the chorus line. I want a loco to be as near to 100% correct as possible; there's no way I would buy an early Farish loco because they just don't look the part. As far as the string of vans behind the loco are concerned - I need them to be correct livery, weathered and be a few slightly different shapes and sizes. I'm never going to look at the brake gear detail or measure each on to check it is the correct length because that is not important to me; they are just the chorus line.
As an illustration, I have three wonderful Revolution tank wagons, they really are great models with fantastic detail. I have run them at every exhibition I have been to since I got them and nobody has made any comment about them. I've not even seen any reaction to suggest anyone has noticed them. They do deserve to be noticed but the folk in the chorus line hardly ever get much recognition.
I'm happy for others to want perfect detail in all their rolling stock. I want to have the best possible stock but the price difference isn't worth it for my eyes.
There is a point about Peco wagons now being very dated but agreed they are great value for money. I have used their kits with Robbie's rolling stock transfers to make some great wagons
As for Dapol it is not only their coaches that are really good value but also their newer bogie wagons
The Farish rolling stock is just simply very poor value, it may have a little more finesse but not at close to double the money compared to Dapol.
I have not bought a single Farish item over the past few years at release, only bought when they are dumping the unsold stock at a significant discount via the box shifters retailers.
[Not singling you out - just that its the latest of a number of similar comments...]Quote from: Rabbitaway on June 10, 2020, 01:23:38 AMThe Farish rolling stock is just simply very poor value
in
your opinion, or by
your judgement, which you are entitled to and is no doubt shared by many others. I support your right to express that opinion, so long as you acknowledge is not universal and others opinions do vary...
Seems to me that, 11 pages later, things have become convoluted and often out of context! ;)
Quote from: Bealman on June 10, 2020, 08:44:27 AM
Seems to me that, 11 pages later, things have become convoluted and often out of context! ;)
Is that not the nature of discussion?
Indeed it is.... I'm just paraphrasing the title: "in" context. ;)
Quote from: Bealman on June 10, 2020, 09:30:55 AM
Indeed it is.... I'm just paraphrasing the title: "in" context. ;)
"There ya go again with them negative waves."
;D
:laughabovepost: :smiley-laughing:
In France, when comparing different products, the concept of "value" is not used, rather the less subjective concept of price/quality ratio.
Best regards,
Joe
But surely quality is subjective? So that's no different. Indeed value is just a proxy for exactly that. Two things can be of equal value at different prices.
Hi Folks,
An interesting article covering Cost, Price and Value...
https://keydifferences.com/difference-between-price-cost-and-value.html
Ultimately this will always comes down to a personal judgement IMHO.
Kind regards
Paddy
Quote from: PLD on June 10, 2020, 07:45:59 AM
[Not singling you out - just that its the latest of a number of similar comments...]
Quote from: Rabbitaway on June 10, 2020, 01:23:38 AMThe Farish rolling stock is just simply very poor value
in your opinion, or by your judgement, which you are entitled to and is no doubt shared by many others. I support your right to express that opinion, so long as you acknowledge is not universal and others opinions do vary...
I think that with some things, the discussion of value simply goes out of the window and that is the case with a lot of N-gauge things. If you, say, want a Class 37 (or in my case a deltic) you're stuck with buying from Farish. Same with coaches. If you need an MK2 in your rake you can't just substitute them with Mk3s
However, compared, to say, german outline in N, the british stuff is laughingly cheap. Carriages are rarely under 50€ and the prices for the locomotives are insane, while you can get a big steamer for a little over a hundred here still.
My apologies if this point has been made before, but we do have a specific problem in the UK that bears heavily on anything we buy from abroad:
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/95/2947-100620125635.png)
Basically, we're paying almost twice as many pounds for the same thing as we did 10+ years ago. This shows up in RTR models made overseas, but also things like Shapeways prints (and P&P costs) etc.
Mike
Quote from: Rabbitaway on June 10, 2020, 01:23:38 AM
The Farish rolling stock is just simply very poor value, it may have a little more finesse but not at close to double the money compared to Dapol.
I have not bought a single Farish item over the past few years at release, only bought when they are dumping the unsold stock at a significant discount via the box shifters retailers.
There is simply no point in repeating the same basic message expecting others to change their minds. As has been repeated ad-nauseum, value is an entirely subjective matter and your opinion is simply that, an opinion.
My view of value is different and "value" does not mean the same thing as "cheap". Farish models are very good quality highly authentic models and with that comes a price. I am looking forward to being able to get my hands on the Thompson coaches, based on my NGS Thompson BGs they will be exquisite and I am happy to pay £35 plus for that. I couldn't get anything of similar quality made at anything close to that price.
Roy
I am very aware of the difference between value and cheap
As PLD said this is my opinion along with a number of others posting here
There have been many businesses fail because of overpricing and not adding value because they do not understand what value means to the majority of their customer base.
As I have said before Bachmann in my opinion has a poor business culture, with examples being shutting customers out of their exhibition stands unless you pay to join their club, no online profile and restrictive business practices. As the leading manufacturer this behaviour is not helping promote the hobby. Bachmann need to modernise their practices to meet the changing retail environment and this change will only accelerate as we come out of Covid-19. Just look at what others are doing eg Hattons on YouTube, high engagement by Revolution on social media etc. They are building brand loyalty and support through modern retail practices. We all know Ben, Mike, Joel and Simon from the other manufacturers, now who again is the face Bachmann engaging with customers through various media platforms!
Therefore the experience and customer engagement with the company adds value as well as the product itself. The hobby is a leisure activity and it is the experience of involvement and engagement that we value, is it not?
May be a better statement is that Bachmann as business offer a poor customer experience with regards to value, with high prices being one of the factors amongst others as as noted above, in my opinion of course
A lot has changed since the days when Graham Hubbard ran the business
Quality can be measured by estimating the manufacturing cost of a product.
Such analysis is possible even for something as simple as a sheet of paper.
Best regards,
Joe
Quote from: joe cassidy on June 10, 2020, 06:24:39 PM
Quality can be measured by estimating the manufacturing cost of a product.
Such analysis is possible even for something as simple as a sheet of paper.
Best regards,
Joe
So you reckon an Austin Allegro was twice the quality of any Japanese car of the era!
In Manufacturing cost, you're measuring production efficiency, workforce productivity, economies of scale and a whole raft of other facets, but certainly not "quality"...
Quote from: joe cassidy on June 10, 2020, 06:24:39 PM
Quality can be measured by estimating the manufacturing cost of a product.
Such analysis is possible even for something as simple as a sheet of paper.
Best regards,
Joe
But how does that work in practice?
You say they use a less subjective method, so is the cost of manufacture for goods known and published? Let's be clear that's not the same as quality though, you can pay a lot for a poor quality product. It sounds like you're applying some pseudo-maths to try and validate a concept which is still just as subjective as "value".
To reuse the previous example what is the "price/quality ratio" of Peco and Farish wagons? Is there an optimum or a baseline? Are there categories?
I really can't get my head around that making any sense in reality.
Quote from: Rabbitaway on June 10, 2020, 06:23:02 PM
I am very aware of the difference between value and cheap
As PLD said this is my opinion along with a number of others posting here
There have been many businesses fail because of overpricing and not adding value because they do not understand what value means to the majority of their customer base.
As I have said before Bachmann in my opinion has a poor business culture, with examples being shutting customers out of their exhibition stands unless you pay to join their club, no online profile and restrictive business practices. As the leading manufacturer this behaviour is not helping promote the hobby. Bachmann need to modernise their practices to meet the changing retail environment and this change will only accelerate as we come out of Covid-19. Just look at what others are doing eg Hattons on YouTube, high engagement by Revolution on social media etc. They are building brand loyalty and support through modern retail practices. We all know Ben, Mike, Joel and Simon from the other manufacturers, now who again is the face Bachmann engaging with customers through various media platforms!
Therefore the experience and customer engagement with the company adds value as well as the product itself. The hobby is a leisure activity and it is the experience of involvement and engagement that we value, is it not?
May be a better statement is that Bachmann as business offer a poor customer experience with regards to value, with high prices being one of the factors amongst others as as noted above, in my opinion of course
A lot has changed since the days when Graham Hubbard ran the business
I would have to agree that the Bachmann customer experience and engagement could be improved based on my own interactions of late. I miss the times when the ever knowledgeable chief designer of N at the time (Colin Allbright) would stand in the public area at TINGS and make himself available to talk about products, I enjoyed those conversations and it made me feel valued as a customer. Now a quality customer experience comes with a price label - collectors club - to see the latest products you have to go into the "secret" area. That said it's not my business to run.
Roy
Estimating the manufacturing cost of a competitor's product is not rocket science.
You need to have an idea of the cost of raw materials/components, number of staff, cost of energy, scrap rate, overheads (more difficult) and production volumes.
There was an article on the internet about the manufacturing cost of Beats headphones, perceived to be a "quality" product.
I think everybody ought to agree to differ on this. ;)
Quote from: joe cassidy on June 10, 2020, 07:07:29 PM
Estimating the manufacturing cost of a competitor's product is not rocket science.
You need to have an idea of the cost of raw materials/components, number of staff, cost of energy, scrap rate, overheads (more difficult) and production volumes.
So...
All other factors being equal, if Manufacturer A has a different Electricity supplier and pays 10p per more per KWH, that magically makes their product a "higher quality"??
or
All other factors being equal, if Manufacturer B uses BP fuel instead of Tesco in their delivery van, does that somehow make their product a "higher quality"?
Quote from: joe cassidy on June 10, 2020, 07:07:29 PM
Estimating the manufacturing cost of a competitor's product is not rocket science.
You need to have an idea of the cost of raw materials/components, number of staff, cost of energy, scrap rate, overheads (more difficult) and production volumes.
So it's still totally subjective then... :confused2:
What is the ratio then? I'm genuinely interested in this concept, not being facaetious, it just seems grossly flawed! You're talking about replacing "value" with a proxy for profit margin, where you guess half of the equation. Rather than saying "that's good value", do people say "that has a higher price:quality ratio?".
Interesting it can be said that Bachmann are the leading manufacturer, yet they're not getting it right?
They came from nowhere, convinced people that (cheap) details invisible to the naked eye matter more than (more expensive) mechanical resilience, limited production and priced for rarity. Kerching!
Mike
What I'm trying to explain is that it is possible to establish a baseline to compare the cost per unit for Farish and Dapol.
I would like to ask Snowolflair to help me.
thanks
Joe
Quote from: joe cassidy on June 10, 2020, 09:37:15 PM
What I'm trying to explain is that it is possible to establish a baseline to compare the cost per unit for Farish and Dapol.
I would like to ask Snowolflair to help me.
thanks
Joe
I have some involvement in manufacturing and there is simply no way that you as an outsider can estimate to any level of useful accuracy what the unit costs for Dapol and Bachman are. To get even close you would essentially have to develop a fully costed business plan with the same staff level, salaries, suppliers, geographic variances, pensions, loans and a thousand other items.
To what point? It is irrelevant, what are you going to do with that information, show it to Dapol and tell them they are too expensive? I am sure they have heard folks tell them that already.
Prices are not set by manufacturing cost, they are set by what the market will stand. If you can make and deliver the products under the market price then you will make profit. If you can't then you need to persuade the market to pay more by adding value added features or branding or go out of business.
Even Revolution who are supplying at close to cost have some profit built in, they have to, to cover warranty and errors along the line. I would expect them to also cover their expenses for travel, storage etc etc. However I suspect that they are the closest you will ever get to a raw cost per unit cost if you look at their early bird pricing.