Being on a search for a few (and in some cases very obscure) US freight wagons (is Boxcar Willie really a medical complaint?) I'm really starting to appreciate just how hard it can be for anyone in the USA modelling UK outline (that's just one example) to source items.
Not only do you have to know where to look in the first place but you also have to attempt to find everything wanted in one place to avoid multiple shipping costs. As an example, I have no idea who the US versions of Hattons, Rails and other major UK box shifters are. Looking at those who advertise on the UK Model Shop site as being stockists of US items becomes an exercise in futility as, by the time you get to 'freight wagons' you're faced with 'there are no items in stock' in many cases :doh:
Likewise, Googling a make and stock number brings up heaps of entries, many of which are actually Fleabay, to find the listing has ended and they offer you everything but the item you looked for in the first place! :veryangry:
The item, should you find one, looks a reasonable price until you look at the small font shipping cost :goggleeyes:
I'm finding I'm spending huge amounts of time on t'interweb for bugger all result.
To those who have managed the reverse i.e. bought UK stock in the UK for shipment abroad - I salute you.
Hi,
Don't feel sorry for @LASteve (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=6889), or me, or anyone else here in the US modelling UK outline.
We just use Hattons, Rails, Kernow, et al. EVERYTHING, apart from scenic materials, is cheaper to buy from UK based suppliers than it is from anyone in the US. We get a 16.67% discount (VAT) on everything we buy, which if you spend more than 100 quid pays for the postage, or even DHL tracked from Hattons.
For example I just bought 7 MX617N decoders from DCC Train Automation, after VAT they cost me about $21 each, and my total order came to $172, which included 20 quid for tracked shipping via Fedex. If I had bought them here they would have cost $31 each, which is $217 and doesn't include postage!
I think that one of the problems for people who want to buy US outline stock is that the US market is so big that many suppliers can't be bothered shipping outside the country.
Regards,
John P
In my experience, the supply of UK stock is much smaller than that of North American and European (especially German of course). It's actually very easy to find and purchase European stock in the US, there are a number of importers that exclusively sell European products in the US. For UK stock, I have not found any options that actually have the products in stock.
So, all of my stock I have ordered online from various shops in the UK. There are actually plenty of online shops that will ship to the US, and shipping costs can be a bit high but at least it is offset by not having to pay UK VAT.
Now as far as finding specific items, I think it's no different than looking for North American stock online. Most online retailers only have products released within the last few years. If you are looking for something earlier or that had a limited production, ebay is probably your only hope. However, the amount of UK outline stock available on the second-hand market is extremely small by comparison to North American products. Here in the US at least, your best hope of finding good deals on older or second-hand stuff is vendors at train shows. In all of the shows I have attended I have not once seen anyone selling anything in UK N gauge, with the exception of maybe a few Kato trainsets. There's just not a large enough number of people here modelling UK in N gauge for there to be a local second-hand market. I would imagine if I had an opportunity to visit a show in the UK that had vendors I would be able to find things that are impossible to find elsewhere.
Some specific items for me have been impossible to find. For example, Graham Farish Short NEM Couplers (379-402) are out of stock on every single website I have found them on. Supplies of Peco wagon kits have also been drying up recently (although I am kind of waiting for some of their new tooled wagons to come out).
Finally for my personal thoughts; I believe the actual demand for N gauge/scale in any region is higher than the manufacturers actually supply. I think the fact that most manufacturers only supply to 3rd party retailers leaves out a lot of people who don't have access to said retailers. While many shops now have a good online presence and can ship worldwide, they only seem to stock what they think they will sell locally, and so those folks from other regions are competing for the same stock as the locals. From what I can tell, the hobby is growing, but current supply chain places a huge barrier to those looking to get into certain areas. UK in N gauge is one of those areas that I think more people internationally would get into if there was more accessibility to the products, and specifically a wider range of product. I get that a lot of people in the UK want to model more modern stuff because that's what they're nostalgic for, but for foreigners like myself that nostalgia isn't there, and I think that's reflected in the fact that transition era stuff is much harder to find in stock than modern stuff in online shops.
Why not put out a wishlist to our US members? I'm sure somebody would be willing to source them for you and post to the UK.
Just a thought.
Cheers,
Chris
Quote from: jpendle on June 29, 2020, 02:43:46 PM
For example I just bought 7 MX617N decoders from DCC Train Automation, after VAT they cost me about $21 each, and my total order came to $172, which included 20 quid for tracked shipping via Fedex. If I had bought them here they would have cost $31 each, which is $217 and doesn't include postage!
No import duty to factor in?
On most things we can get clobbered several times on imports to the UK - Import Duty depending on what the goods are, VAT on the goods price, VAT on the Import Duty
and VAT on the flipping postage.
Quote from: chrism on June 29, 2020, 03:00:33 PM
No import duty to factor in?
On most things we can get clobbered several times on imports to the UK - Import Duty depending on what the goods are, VAT on the goods price, VAT on the Import Duty and VAT on the flipping postage.
Model trains are not subject to Import Duties, and that seems to cover DCC stuff as well. (BTW I think that's true everywhere in the world)
Like I said, don't feel sorry for us :D
John P
Does this help?
This is where I get much of my North American stock:
https://www.nscaleamericantrains.co.uk/en/ (https://www.nscaleamericantrains.co.uk/en/)
I also use this retailer in Canadia:
https://www.pwrs.ca/n_in_stock.php (https://www.pwrs.ca/n_in_stock.php)
best
Scott.
Quote from: Papyrus on June 29, 2020, 02:58:26 PM
Why not put out a wishlist to our US members? I'm sure somebody would be willing to source them for you and post to the UK.
Just a thought.
Cheers,
Chris
@Papyrus (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=2975) Already here, Chris.......
https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=50088.msg651346#msg651346 (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=50088.msg651346#msg651346)
Don't get me wrong. I don't feel sorry for those who have established the way forward but I do feel sorry for anyone starting out in another country's railways. Sure, the forum is a great way to discover the best sources but until I created this thread, Scott's @NGS-PO (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=6239) has been the first to suggest sources and I very much look forward to scrutinising them. Like I say, if I can get what I want from one source I could maybe live with the shipping costs but we also get clobbered with the damned '£8 handling fee'. My searches have unearthed some great websites from which I have compiled my list of desires but I think that prime US based dealer is my ultimate aim i.e. someone who stocks the most (old and new)
Don't forget Fifer Hobby.
I think they even post on here sometimes.
John P
Quote from: Newportnobby on June 29, 2020, 01:55:50 PM
To those who have managed the reverse i.e. bought UK stock in the UK for shipment abroad - I salute you.
Never had the need to source anything from the US, but purchasing stock from the UK has been always been fairly straightforward for me, especially once you work out which retailers are best at international shipping. Hattons charge a whopping GBP 4.60 for sending their anonymous cardboard boxes, which rarely if ever attract the attention of the local customs'n'excise and arrive in around a week, and the VAT exemption more than makes up for the postage cost. Need to find somewhere else for sourcing new Farish stock though...
Quote from: jpendle on June 29, 2020, 02:43:46 PM
Don't feel sorry for @LASteve (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=6889), or me, or anyone else here in the US modelling UK outline.
We get a 16.67% discount (VAT) on everything we buy, which if you spend more than 100 quid pays for the postage, or even DHL tracked from Hattons.
Oh yes, I remember the good ole days when I lived in the States. At first it was always cheaper to buy European stuff from US box shifters like Eurolokshop and MicroMacroMundo. Then prices slowly started to equalise and due to the lack of VAT, no import duties and possibly currency fluctuations it was cheaper to buy European stock direct from suppliers in the UK/Germany and import it to the US, plus you had access to a bigger range in most cases.
Anyway I digress, if you're looking for a US box shifter with good prices that also offers a search service then try: http://www.wig-wag-trains.com/ (http://www.wig-wag-trains.com/)
I quote:
"We have a large inventory and even if we don't have it here we may be able to locate it for you. Our hunts for older items are successful more than 75% of the time. Some of our suppliers have been in business for 30+ years and are not computer literate so they have some products still available that we haven't seen in 10 or more years.
Obviously the older an item is the harder it is to locate."Simon
@NScaleNotes (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=7232)
Thanks, Simon, but all my attempts to find their e mail address are frustrated by their site constantly throwing me to their 'Terms' page so I can't even find if they ship to the UK let alone ask specific questions.
@NGS-PO (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=6239)
Scott - I found many items listed but the Hershey and Nestlé items are all sold out :doh:
Some of the prices are hugely scary as well - $68.95 for a box car! :o
You do get 8 wheels :D
I buy from the States fairly regularly.
I wouldn't bother with Wig Wag trains, their website is not helpful.
Biggest suppliers are:
https://www.modeltrainstuff.com/n-scale/ (https://www.modeltrainstuff.com/n-scale/)
http://www.hobbylinc.com/model-trains (http://www.hobbylinc.com/model-trains)
Fifer Hobby as mentioned: (http://fifer%20hobby%20as%20mentioned:)https://www.fiferhobby.com/ (https://www.fiferhobby.com/)
Walthers is also massive, but they are a bit of a dodgy company - poor attitude to N scale when they were manufacturers.
The one I like best, though his ordering system is weird, is N Scale Supply (he also has preowned). https://www.nscalesupply.com/ (https://www.nscalesupply.com/)
Shipping costs are also horrendous, and most use USPS which connects with our post office meaning you will almost invariably get customs and the post office handling charge (£8).
Most suppliers are very efficient and stuff will get across the ocean in 10 days to two weeks, even in these times. I suppose you have to remember that items may have to go a couple of thousand miles even before they leave the US.
I think I may have a Hershey freight car - I'll have a look
Like the sweeties project idea a lot.
Good luck
Simon
Quote from: Newportnobby on June 30, 2020, 10:53:50 AM
@NScaleNotes (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=7232)
Thanks, Simon, but all my attempts to find their e mail address are frustrated by their site constantly throwing me to their 'Terms' page so I can't even find if they ship to the UK let alone ask specific questions.
Oops, I linked to their old website. Yeah, even the new website leaves something to be desired but it's a Mom & Pop outfit as they say. I did still give them a go as they are a part of the US exhibition circuit so will have contacts with all the dealers that attend shows:
wigwag@swcp.com
It's says include your country when contacting them from overseas.
Simon
Of the box shifters, I've been using Trainworld, https://www.trainworld.com/manufacturers/, (https://www.trainworld.com/manufacturers/,) for years. I know others have had ups and downs but (touch wood) I've had good experiences with them shipping to Australia. I've also used Charles Ro, https://charlesro-com.3dcartstores.com/mnf_nscale.html, (https://charlesro-com.3dcartstores.com/mnf_nscale.html,) although not as often
Quote from: Bealman on June 30, 2020, 10:57:43 AM
You do get 8 wheels :D
Stupid boy, Pike. I get 8 wheels on any UK bogie wagon too :P
Thanks to the Simons and Spoz. Lots more searching to be done there!
It might be worth your while keeping an eye on Trainboard, https://www.trainboard.com/highball/index.php?forums/n-scale.112/. (https://www.trainboard.com/highball/index.php?forums/n-scale.112/.) It's far from being my favourite forum, but they do cover quite a lot of ground around US N scale. There should be somebody on there who would have knowledge of confectionery box cars, too.
Thanks again, Spoz :thumbsup:
I was looking for a boxcar, then remembered this. (Box is somewhere in the loft unfortunately).
Having trouble uploading images, but this is it:
https://www.trovestar.com/generic/zoom.php?id=23187 (https://www.trovestar.com/generic/zoom.php?id=23187)
Any use?
Another vote for M B Klein https://www.modeltrainstuff.com (https://www.modeltrainstuff.com) who were my pusher of choice back in the days when the £-$ exchange rate was such that you'd be mad not to buy US N scale. Not so much now.
When on visits to friends in the US (again, not so much now) I made a few excursions to Trainworld and Trainland in New York. Lost of bargains in the shops and at the latter you also get to see where Bobby Baccalieri was gunned down in the penultimate episode of The Sopranos when he went shopping for his O scale "Blue Comet" set
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/96/7298-300620163331.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=96329)
Thanks to all so far. I am now sorted with Hershey unless anyone has a Hershey Kisses box car or Reese Peanut Butter Cup (Reese were bought out by Hershey but the Reese name was retained)
Here's an example of my earlier ramblings.............
Cost of wagon $16.49
Shipping cost $28.86
Total $45.35
Todays exchange rate $1.23 to the £ = £36.87 + £8 handling fee = £44.87
Suddenly Farish coaches look cheap ;)
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Athearn-14178-N-Nestle-50-PS-1-Plug-Door-Boxcar-8232-LN-Box-/392848447783 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Athearn-14178-N-Nestle-50-PS-1-Plug-Door-Boxcar-8232-LN-Box-/392848447783)
Have you tried Woodpecker Hobbies in Sydney Australia.
They have boxes and boxes in addition to display case full of US outline wagons
Great family business to deal with
And you should be able to deduct our gst
cheers
Bart
Probably 75% of my stuff comes from Pacific Western Rail Systems (PWRS) mentioned earlier. They have the big advantage of having a goodie box arrangement by which you can accumulate ordered items before having a whole load shipped together thereby greatly reducing shipping costs. The amount they have in stock is limited, but PWRS puts in orders from a vast array of suppliers from time to time so one's stuff will come eventually. They have a great search engine, and ongoing email notices of new models which is really handy too. The biggest downside is that their prices are generally close to MSRP. Members discount on purchases is only 10% or so (and often nothing) unlike the majority of the web sellers who usually offer in excess of 20% off.
Fifer Hobbies also mentioned would supply most of the rest of my stuff. I mostly buy structures and detail parts from them as these have decent discounts and are usually in stock. Customer service from both Fifer and PWRS is excellent.
Webbo
Quote from: jpendle on June 29, 2020, 03:07:56 PM
Model trains are not subject to Import Duties, and that seems to cover DCC stuff as well. (BTW I think that's true everywhere in the world)
Like I said, don't feel sorry for us :D
John P
Not much help to the OP who is looking to go in the opposite direction, but JP's right. The "No VAT discount" and the very fair shipping prices from the likes of Hatton's and (my favorites) Model Railways Direct and Osborne's make purchasing from the UK very attractive. There is no import duty assessed on anything that I've purchased from the UK - it all falls under your "personal customs allowance". Some shipments don't exactly sneak under the radar either - my last purchase from MRD came in box more than a yard long (it had flextrack in it, hard to squeeze that into a smaller space) and a lot of other stuff, so it wasn't exactly inconspicuous. The customs form, as is their habit, did say "Toy Trains" on it, which gives SWMBO no end of amusement when I insist that I'm modelling, not playing. A futile exercise on my part :)
Another example is DCC Concepts who supplied my Cobalt point motors - with the lack of VAT, fair shipping costs and no US customs duty or sales tax, I'm pretty sure they arrived chez moi cheaper than I could have bought them personally in the UK and brought them back myself. CR Signals, Train Tech and other specialist suppliers are all spot-on with communication, prices and delivery, Brimart for electronic components can't be beaten for both price and customer service.
Underlining the other comments for US suppliers, I've used Fifer, M.B Klein, Tony's Train Exchange and Streamline Backshop here in the USA for various bits and pieces that weren't UK-specific with no complaints, but obviously I can't comment on UK delivery. Fifer's "how to" videos on YouTube are excellent as a bonus.
So yep, as @jpendle (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=3871) said at the top of the thread, don't feel sorry for us!