One of the young lads at the club asked me to repair a loco he had bought very cheaply as a non-runner. It looked like a Farish GP tank (vaguely Jintyish but with the proportions all wrong) but when he handed it over to me it just floated out of my hand and headed up towards the ceiling. OK, slight exaggeration, but a plastic body with just one tiny little alloy weight up front. I have wagons which weigh more than that. Getting it running was easy enough (nut missing from the screw that holds the front of the motor down) but I had to stuff every available space inside the body with lead weights to get it to run at less than 100mph without stalling. Even then it was rubbish, despite careful wheel cleaning and adjustment of pickups. It didn't help that one of the wheels was slightly off-centre on the axle and kept lifting all but one of the other wheels off the track. The coupler mounts were hopeless, holding the couplers solidly at any angle other than straight and level.
Presumably these things were sold in some kind of starter train set. They must have done a fair bit to put off newcomers to N gauge. Pity, as underneath all the plastic tat was the good old Farish Pannier chassis, which can run very well indeed. Anyone else got any really bad N gauge models?
I went to a lot of trouble Briticising this Life-Like loco, only to find I couldn't make it run reliably ...
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/24/main_25601.JPG)
Plenty of bad reviews available here (http://www.spookshow.net/locos2.html)...
Mike
"Briticise" ........... :thumbsup:
Thanks for the new word for my vocabulary, Mike.
Made me smile - saw where you're based and why "anglicise" wouldn't work!
Best
Adrian
The Farish "starter" 0-6-0 GP shunters are ok as basic locos (my brother and I started with 2). Certainly been more reliable and better traction than my Dapol 14xx, but some people have had no problem with those either, so it's probably just a case of certain locos have a higher rate of failure/error/rubbishness than others.
The GP shunter is a really good one to practice painting and weathering on though :)
Quote from: Adrian on July 15, 2016, 04:24:44 PM
"Briticise" ........... :thumbsup:
"anglicise" wouldn't work
Anglesey is in Wales isn't it?😄
Was it one of these (http://www.anticsonline.co.uk/1325_1_1134098.html)? They also did one in red, too. Plastic bodies over the old Poole-era jinty chassis.
Edit: Zwilnik beat me to it, I think.
Lima Class 31. The wheels spin, it goes nowhere.
Quote from: jrb on July 15, 2016, 04:39:39 PM
Was it one of these (http://www.anticsonline.co.uk/1325_1_1134098.html)? They also did one in red, too. Plastic bodies over the old Poole-era jinty chassis.
Edit: Zwilnik beat me to it, I think.
That's the one, except this was in red, overpainted with what I think was black car underseal. I was very tempted to stick it in a jar of paint stripper and start again, then it occurred to me that the young owner might have painted it himself.
Quote from: railsquid on July 15, 2016, 05:00:47 PM
Lima Class 31. The wheels spin, it goes nowhere.
Lima! The models of my youth. I had a Class 31, also the "Clayton" which even as an 8 year old I could see was just a repainted German loco. Strange brass pickups with springs strong enough to support a small family car, so the locos sat higher at one end than the other, speed range (scale) 75 - 200 mph. Amazing I still stuck with railway modelling at all, let alone N gauge.
The Lima 4F was pretty dire too, cut off the smokebox door and glue it back on in open position the park it at the back of the shed with a bloke and shovel suitably posed, or another sat under the lift with one end up and a pair of wheels run out behind.
I also found them very useful to practice hacking, tried hacking one into an SR Q class, you could find out what to do and how to do it without spending loadsa dosh.
All of the Lima models are pretty dire but I surprisingly had a very bad Minitrix Ivatt, bought brand new it was absolutely dreadful and despite the attention of various experts it never improved.
My other Minitrix models are all fine and some exceptionally good despite their age, so maybe it was a one off.
Some of the early Farish locos with brass gears run adequately but very noisily.
I recently got a Lima Deltic that I occasionally run just to remind myself how much things have improved.
The Lima Deltic was pretty gruesome. Body looked vaguely Deltic-ish but was out of scale and out of proportion. Drive was by a motor-bogie arrangement with pick-up from one side of the bogie and from the opposite side of the non-powered bogie.
And if it looked bad on its own it must have looked worse with Lima's under-scale Mk1 coaches.
I had one, it was the first N gauge loco I bought and I sold it on pretty quickly. It is the one buy I'd rather forget!
Yep, those Minitrix 2-6-0s couldn't pull, but the 2-6-2T was a bit better. Most, if not all, were on chassis from their German loco range, and the body of the 9F was the same as the Brit.
These locos are great - they run on a standard 94xx chassis, and therefore can be a very cheap source of chassis for kitbuild's - I've used about 5 of them over the years for various such things.
Running wise they aren't quite as good as the 94xx due to the lack of weight, but to be fair I've never had any problems with them once cleaned, lubricated and gear replaced if worn (seems common - they likely get a hard life as starter locos).
Cheers,
Alan
Quote from: Dorsetmike on July 15, 2016, 07:54:33 PM
Yep, those Minitrix 2-6-0s couldn't pull
This is exaggerated now as most are 30 years old and their traction tyres are therefore life expired, and most go hard and lose their grip. Stick a new set on and they'll happily tow 8 free rolling coaches on the flat in my experience.
Peter's spares has suitable tyres periodically in stock - same as the ones for the 9F.
Cheers,
Alan
I might have got the balance wrong, but my Ivatt mogul could barely pull its own weight from new, even after adjusting the pickups and bogie spring.
The tank, by comparison, once some of the weight had been taken off the bogies, easily took four coaches.
I agree the Lima locos were dire-even though I had 2x31 and a Deltic (which overheated and melted the body!).
Martyn
I am quite fond of my Lima 86, leaving out the hopelessly inaccurate proportions (the chassis seems to be the same size as the 31) the body moulding detail is actually pretty good (we'll forget the pantograph) and it has a nice (for Lima) electric blue paint job. Runs OK (compared to other models with the same mechanism) though it needs a burst of speed over points sometimes. It will also happily haul trains more recent British outline locos struggle with.
Quote from: railsquid on July 15, 2016, 05:00:47 PM
Lima Class 31. The wheels spin, it goes nowhere.
I had one! Useless pulling power but better than the minitrix Ivatt 2-6-0 tender I had at the same time.
I only started in N during 2013. The current models all look very good and this is what attracted me to N. I consider pretty much all the older locos to be bad models as they just don't look the part at all. I would like a large prairie for my layout but the old GF model looks so bad I can't bring myself to buy one even at a bargain price. Same goes for virtually all earlier models - the GF Western,GF Castle, minitrix warship etc etc. I wouldn't use any of them on my layout even if I was given one. The one exception I have found so far is the GF GWR railcar which I think is a reasonably good model although the original chassis was useless on the one I had.
Does anyone know which was the first well detailed, correct scale, realistic loco to be produced?
Quote from: railsquid on July 17, 2016, 12:19:57 AM
I am quite fond of my Lima 86, leaving out the hopelessly inaccurate proportions (the chassis seems to be the same size as the 31) the body moulding detail is actually pretty good (we'll forget the pantograph) and it has a nice (for Lima) electric blue paint job. Runs OK (compared to other models with the same mechanism) though it needs a burst of speed over points sometimes. It will also happily haul trains more recent British outline locos struggle with.
The 86 was the first British N gauge model by Lima, and I always thought it looked a lot neater and closer to scale than the ones that followed. I'd be intrigued to know how far off 1:148 the body dimensions are - it sits high on the bogies, but the body width and height don't look obviously wrong.
Lima's next British model was the 2-6-4 tank loco about which the less said the better. Even Railway Modeller struggled to say anything good about it, and that was back in the days when model reviewing was a gentlemanly affair with major faults ignored or glossed over.
Quote from: Chris m on July 18, 2016, 10:14:57 AM
Does anyone know which was the first well detailed, correct scale, realistic loco to be produced?
Peco / Rivarossi Jubilee, early 1970s. Lacking in detail by modern standards, moulded handrails and simplified valve gear, but ran well and the dimensions were spot on. The first and for a very long time the last really good British steam loco in N gauge. Such a shame they didn't follow it up with anything else, they were promising the Collett Goods in around 1975 IIRC.
Quote from: belstone on July 18, 2016, 10:31:52 AM
promising the Collett Goods in around 1975 IIRC.
They did fulfil that promise....albeit it took them about 30 years! ;D
Cheers,
Alan
Quote from: belstone on July 18, 2016, 10:26:31 AM
Quote from: railsquid on July 17, 2016, 12:19:57 AM
I am quite fond of my Lima 86, leaving out the hopelessly inaccurate proportions (the chassis seems to be the same size as the 31) the body moulding detail is actually pretty good (we'll forget the pantograph) and it has a nice (for Lima) electric blue paint job. Runs OK (compared to other models with the same mechanism) though it needs a burst of speed over points sometimes. It will also happily haul trains more recent British outline locos struggle with.
The 86 was the first British N gauge model by Lima, and I always thought it looked a lot neater and closer to scale than the ones that followed. I'd be intrigued to know how far off 1:148 the body dimensions are - it sits high on the bogies, but the body width and height don't look obviously wrong.
Placed next to a Dapol model (which I assume are much closer to the proper propotions) it's clearly too short, but somewhat wider (IIRC I measured it and it's about 10% shorter and 5% wider than it should be).
I suspect the extra width is needed to accomodate the motor; as you say, by itself it doesn't look particularly wrong. I have acquired a couple with an eye to practicing repainting into BR blue before I let myself loose on Dapol versions, though I'll keep the nicest one as-is.
Quote from: railsquid on July 18, 2016, 11:12:46 AM
Placed next to a Dapol model (which I assume are much closer to the proper propotions) it's clearly too short, but somewhat wider (IIRC I measured it and it's about 10% shorter and 5% wider than it should be).
I suspect the extra width is needed to accomodate the motor; as you say, by itself it doesn't look particularly wrong. I have acquired a couple with an eye to practicing repainting into BR blue before I let myself loose on Dapol versions, though I'll keep the nicest one as-is.
Might be a good candidate for putting on an American diesel chassis if you can find one the right wheelbase. I seem to recall that right at the end of production Lima introduced a new mechanism with a centrally mounted can motor and also turned out a few 31s and 86s in Large Logo livery. Too little, too late. The CCT showed that Lima could produce really nice N gauge models if they tried.
For bad models I'm surprised nobody has brought up the original plastic chassied, Arnold motored Farish 94xx, Hall and Spam can. I've never seen one that ran well or didn't sound like a bag of spanners - and of course almost all seem to suffer with split gears, long before they became epidemic on the later diesels.
Cheers,
Alan
My experience of Minitrix Ivatts was that while the tank could pull a respectable load, the Mogul was very iffy. My first one was also an erratic runner - I sold it on!. Later I bought 2 more, second hand, and replaced the tyres. These ran fairly well but even with new tyres were indifferent pullers. I converted on to the 78XXX BR Standard. Eventually a plastic part of the valve gear snapped, on each one. I removed the associated parts, but was very glad to eventually get my new Farish model (pre-ordered for £58!), and ditch the Minitrix.
I had a Lima Clayton for a while, with a speed range from 60 ish to 100 ish. But now have a Parkwood resin kit and am awaiting the DJM. I also had a 4F briefly but apart from the Syphon and CCT, which looked good, gave up on Lima. Their Achilles heal seemed to be that pancake motor. Some worked fairly well, mine did not.
Quote from: Dr Al on July 18, 2016, 12:15:35 PM
For bad models I'm surprised nobody has brought up the original plastic chassied, Arnold motored Farish 94xx, Hall and Spam can. I've never seen one that ran well or didn't sound like a bag of spanners - and of course almost all seem to suffer with split gears, long before they became epidemic on the later diesels.
Cheers,
Alan
Good call, my father had a Holden tank that somehow managed to beat the odds there. It sounded as though it was powered by angry mice, but was the best slow-speed runner he had (thanks I suspect to those tiny driving wheels) and never ate any gears. His scrapbox was overflowing with the remains of plastic-chassis Halls and Panniers. I would guess that Farish never had the sales volumes to be able to build German-standard mechanisms at an acceptable price, so they were always looking for ways to keep costs down.
My Ivatt ran very roughly and noisily from brand new, I tested it on a layout at the show where I bought it from but I couldn't hear much because of the background noise.
I was very disappointed when I got it back to Africa and it ran so badly. Despite having been looked at by a loco repairer here it never improved. I think it was a Monday loco. At that stage I was on a very tight budget and only able to buy one loco a year.
All my other Minitrix locos run very well and I wouldn't part with them.
THE Minitrix 27s I had (one for £6 in the 1980s) were superb runners, great pullers, and sold for a good price when I upped to one of Carl Peplow's kits, and since then to Dapol. I have found the 9F and Brit sure footed and smooth. Still have one Brit - renamed and numbered as a Clan.
It's nice to known that I'm not the only one to admitre the Minitrix Brit as a Clan! Here's my 72009 "Clan Stewart":
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/42/231-180716145003.jpeg)
Quote from: msr on July 18, 2016, 02:51:53 PM
It's nice to known that I'm not the only one to admitre the Minitrix Brit as a Clan! Here's my 72009 "Clan Stewart":
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/42/231-180716145003.jpeg)
I must try a photo, though I find the way you do them on the forum complex and uncertain, unlike Facebook. Anyway, my own clan is 72006, Clan McKensie. Cant remember the spelling, I am not at home to check. I have pics of the real one on
the Port Road.
I was given three very old Farish 94xx s (as we have very few British outline modellers in our club I tend to get given the odd British loco that's turned up in an attic or cupboard) All three had a slightly different motor arrangement, I managed to get one to run but it ran so badly I consigned it and the others to the preservation sidings on my layout. They were given a paint treatment to make them look rusty.
A friend of mine bought some of the very early Farish models and found them so disappointing that he now models Continental outline.
The Peco Jubliee which came out at about the same time must have seemed like a Rolls Royce!
Hi
My worst loco has got to be my Farish Black 5 because it was expensive (at the time) and in spite of a guarantee repair and several dismantles, cleans and checks by me following tips on the Forum it still stutter and sticks and wont pull well. I never run it now but because it looks so good it resides in a near siding where it can be easily inspected.
My two Minitrix 9Fs are not run either, not because there is anything wrong with them (one will pull all my wagons!) but because they look large and strange alongside my good looking Dapol weathered 9F and I did not allow enough platform clearance for their cylinder blocks that stick out a bit.
Cheers
Mac :beers:
Going by a lot of the comments above virtually all my locos are bad. Some of them are 40 years old and include cast metal locos with the worm gear obvious. I like them, they do what I want them to do, they pull decent length trains without the need of expensive electronic gizmos. They may not be accurate scale models but they impart the essence of a railway. Being able to see all the rivets is not important as my eyes don't see them. I have two new locos which I wish I'd never bought. All bells and whistles and can't pull the skin off a rice pudding. Now that is bad.
At the end of the day, bad and good are relative. I just enjoy my hobby and it seems everybody here does too. :thumbsup:
Quote from: silly moo on July 18, 2016, 03:23:40 PM
I was given three very old Farish 94xx s (as we have very few British outline modellers in our club I tend to get given the odd British loco that's turned up in an attic or cupboard) All three had a slightly different motor arrangement, I managed to get one to run but it ran so badly I consigned it and the others to the preservation sidings on my layout. They were given a paint treatment to make them look rusty.
A friend of mine bought some of the very early Farish models and found them so disappointing that he now models Continental outline.
The Peco Jubliee which came out at about the same time must have seemed like a Rolls Royce!
It did indeed. I remember having one in the early 80s. The only issue with mine was that the valve gear used to lock up sometimes.
Quote from: Mito on July 21, 2016, 09:21:11 PM
Going by a lot of the comments above virtually all my locos are bad. Some of them are 40 years old and include cast metal locos with the worm gear obvious. I like them, they do what I want them to do, they pull decent length trains without the need of expensive electronic gizmos. They may not be accurate scale models but they impart the essence of a railway. Being able to see all the rivets is not important as my eyes don't see them. I have two new locos which I wish I'd never bought. All bells and whistles and can't pull the skin off a rice pudding. Now that is bad.
At the end of the day, bad and good are relative. I just enjoy my hobby and it seems everybody here does too. :thumbsup:
Very well said, that man :thumbsup:
I have 54 diesels and 45 steamers from Farish, Dapol, Minitrix and 1 each from Ixion and Peco. I have only ever returned 4 locos (and they weren't Minitrix or Ixion). Being an old DC dinosaur it is nice to have some with lights but the ability to turn off the rear ones without dismantling the body will be a welcome improvement. Farish seemed to make a quantum leap with their coreless motors so I'm hoping Dapol will be doing the same whenever I get my hands of the Bulleid BoB (I might even be around to play with it :hmmm:)
The main issue I find is noise. Cardon shaft noise, echoing withing the bodyshell, whining diesels etc.
If Farish can make a class 24 that is so quiet I have keep searching for it on the layout why are my new class 20, 25, 31 and 37 so noisy? Other locos that tend to get 'lost' on the layout are my J39, Fairburn, 5MTs and N class. In fact, many of my steamers are much less noisy than my diesels.
I do feel so sorry for folks who have to return locos on what seems to be a fairly constant basis (especially if they live abroad) so consider myself very lucky especially as I do not 'fettle' things but just lubricate/run in according to the instructions.
If I have any bad 'uns they are a pair of the old Poole class 101 green DMUs. What a pair of frightful old growlers they are but they've now been superceded by the newer generation models.
Quote from: Mito on July 21, 2016, 09:21:11 PM
Going by a lot of the comments above virtually all my locos are bad. Some of them are 40 years old and include cast metal locos with the worm gear obvious. I like them, they do what I want them to do, they pull decent length trains without the need of expensive electronic gizmos. They may not be accurate scale models but they impart the essence of a railway. Being able to see all the rivets is not important as my eyes don't see them. I have two new locos which I wish I'd never bought. All bells and whistles and can't pull the skin off a rice pudding. Now that is bad.
At the end of the day, bad and good are relative. I just enjoy my hobby and it seems everybody here does too. :thumbsup:
That's the great thing about the forum. We will all have different views on things. Nobody is right or wrong about a model - just different based on what happens to be important to the individual. So whilst I have said I think all early n models are bad I can appreciate that many people see them as great for their needs. It's kind of like the track debate a few weeks ago - some think code 40 is essential for a good model while others are happy with code 80. Again there is no right or wrong opinion just different views based on what is important to the individual.
I got the impression this thread is about poor-performing models, not detail? Despite being new-ish to the hobby I've acquired some older models, some of which are quite good runners (if not as quiet as current versions) I'm quite fond of, while being disappointed by beautifully detailed but temperamental newer ones.
Quote from: Mito on July 21, 2016, 09:21:11 PM
Going by a lot of the comments above virtually all my locos are bad. Some of them are 40 years old and include cast metal locos with the worm gear obvious. I like them, they do what I want them to do, they pull decent length trains without the need of expensive electronic gizmos. They may not be accurate scale models but they impart the essence of a railway. Being able to see all the rivets is not important as my eyes don't see them. I have two new locos which I wish I'd never bought. All bells and whistles and can't pull the skin off a rice pudding. Now that is bad.
At the end of the day, bad and good are relative. I just enjoy my hobby and it seems everybody here does too. :thumbsup:
It all depends what you want. If your locos meet your criteria then it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks.
I don't think I've got anything that's 40 years old but I do have a couple of Graham Farish locos that were made in Poole with a 5-pole motor. I wouldn't class either of them as bad; for all their cosmetic faults they do, as you said, run well and pull decent trains (my Graham Farish 'Crab' 2-6-0 will out pull my tender-drive Bachman-Farish 'Black 5').
The Lima Deltic, on the other hand, seems to tick all of the boxes for a bad model; the dimensions are wrong, it doesn't pull well, the pickup arrangement is poor. About the only thing in its favour was that it did still work despite many years of use and (probably) neglect. So I suppose even the worst N gauge loco isn't entirely without virtue.
Quote from: johnlambert on July 22, 2016, 01:01:43 PM
I do have a couple of Graham Farish locos that were made in Poole with a 5-pole motor. I wouldn't class either of them as bad; for all their cosmetic faults they do, as you said, run well and pull decent trains (my Graham Farish 'Crab' 2-6-0 will out pull my tender-drive Bachman-Farish 'Black 5').
My oldest models are 5 pole motored Farish too, and 'twas only yesterday afternoon I was running a Castle on an Up passenger train and an 8F on a down mineral. Both ran extremely well and quietly.
I know the Castle I have on pre order will look vastly better to the old one, and just wish Farish would do a retooled 8F as I think it would sell shedloads.
My oldest loco is a three poled Farish Jinty which I keep for sentimental reasons, it's very noisy. I have a few old locos that I've hung on to, mainly Minitrix and three Poole Farish Crabs which all run exceptionally well, Most of the older locos have been upgraded to more recent DCC ready offerings when they come along. Oh and I have two Peco Jubilees.
The early class 101 was another mechanical oops. The brass on brass gears on the motor wore rapidly. The later ones had a plastic gear which fixed that but the power pickup was still useless.
Fitted with extra pickups though they were nice, and you got a full interior that was lost on the later big chassis.
The early HST had the same problems with the added feature that when the front bogie stalled on a point the back one usually derailed the entire train rather than pushing it over the point.
Having started in N in the seventies, with the locos that were available at the time I'm surprised that N-gauge took off at all. I couldn't afford a Jubilee and only just managed a Minitrix 2-6-2T.
One of my BETTER locos was the Atlas 0-6-0T which featured in the early posts of this thread- noisy and nothing like a UK loco but it ran.
I also had a pair of Graham Farish "J69" tanks- which were quite a way out of proportion compared with the prototype. Again not good runners- and they ran in opposite directions to each other straight out of the box.......
Eventually I managed a pair of Arnold 0-4-0 tank chassis and built Peco kits on them. The Avonside is the only survivor I have from the seventies, lurking in a box somewhere. These and the Minitrix kept me going to 1979 when I discovered Roco HO locos and changed scale (for the second time- I changed from TT to N in about 1973-4).
Les
Agreed re: the 8F Mick although we have of course in the absence of it now been treated to the truly excellent WD 2-8-0.
I was trying to think what my own oldest N loco is (ignoring those oldies I have bought since for reasons of nostalgia). I would think it has to be my Jubilees (Albeit both were repainted in the late 90s to BR livery by Fred Hempsall). Both run superbly and even if lacking in fine detail are still fine models.
The list of basket cases from the 70s I owned is long and distinguished, pretty much any Lima loco was dire (I had a 31, 2 Fowlers and 2 "Claytons") the Ivatt 2-6-0 I had was a lovely smooth runner but from new struggled with more than 2 coaches or about 8 wagons.
The advent of the "New" Farish chassis encouraged me to stay, the 94xx was a revelation compared to the earlier models I had. It was followed by a Hall (plastic pony wheels and all) a Prairie and GP Tanks, then my first Jubilee...
Roy