I am interested in adding some water to my layout but having not tackled this before I am hoping for some guidance. I am going to keep it simple - probably just a pond and a ditch, so no moving water.
I have searched the forum but cannot find anything that seems to answer my query / need. I am hoping for advice on a self-levelling product that is currently available but wherein somebody can comment on how good it is (say) 12 months after use.
Thanks for any help.
Woodland scenics do good products. I've model rail magazines with articles on water modelling. Chris
I use yacht varnish applied in layers (often 11 or 12) over a gravel (fine ballast) base.
You can add green scatter material over, say, the fourth or fifth layer of varnish to give a weed effect.
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/124/230-070822154911.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=124792)
You can also apply acrylic paints to add colour as desired.
In addition to martin's comments shades of brown , green, greys on towpath and yes i use yacht varnish.see
https://woodlandscenics.woodlandscenics.com/show/category/Water but Martins suggestion will work
Thanks both for the posts. I have seen videos about Woodland Scenics Realistic Water, Envirotex-Lite, Magic Water amongst others. One person will say one is great, another will say the contrary. That's why I thought real experience from somebody with no vested interest would be invaluable.
If I ever managed anything vaguely approaching your image port perran I would be more than happy. I have never used yacht varnish though I am familiar with ordinary wood varnish. Will any brand be good would you say? Do you brush it on or pour? I can imagine it might be pouring with assistance from a brush? Does it stand the test of time?
Thanks again.
See the embedded video on this page: https://modelrailwayengineer.com/model-water-railway/
Toilet paper!
if you are happy to shell out a few quid, Kathy Millatt's newish book, Building Realistic Model Railroad Scenery, is definitely worth a look. It has a lot of excellent content as you might expect. Aimed at Americans but just as good for the UK.
I realise that this is probably not what you are aiming for, but if you only want small areas of water, PVA dries clear and is ideal for puddles and the like. On my very first layout, I used it to make water for a garden pond. Pour a smallish amount into 'the hole', allow to dry thoroughly and repeat as often as necessary. When I did the garden pond, I painted very small blobs of orange on the first layer of PVA - instant goldfish.
Another vote here for yacht varnish. If you're modelling still water it is perfect. You will need 4 or 5 coats - the more you apply, the darker it will look. If you want, you can add green streaks and blobs before the final coat to represent water weed. This is the result on my (unfinished) layout.
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/102/2975-011220124356.jpeg)
Cheers,
Chris
It's too hot to be outdoors (my excuse that seemed acceptable) so I thought I'd do an NGF post and loads of ideas!
I thought the toilet paper video was brill but I think toilet paper might be better for an area of more open water?
So I am thinking PVA or yacht varnish right now.
On PVA people say be careful of ones that dry yellow. Is there one that anyone would recommend?
On yacht glue. Will any brand be ok? Do you brush it on or pour? Does it stand the test of time?
I have never had any PVA glue dry yellow, although yellow PVA glue can be obtained. The following link may be of some use -
https://sawsonskates.com/what-is-pva-glue/
Addit: A lot of the PVA glue I have used in the past has been bought from 'The Works', who sell all sorts of stuff that can be useful for modelling.
Thanks dannyboy - that's really useful.
On the link I note it says "to bond, PVA glues must penetrate the surface, so they are ideal for working with porous materials" - so I guess I could lay down a base of plaster onto my ply, paint it, then add the glue?
Thanks again.
I used many layers of yacht varnish for my harbour, back in 1995. It's over a cm thick to cope with setting the tug in the water. It worked well except that I got impatient and some later layers were poured on a bit too thick, with the result that it's actually not set underneath the skin even after 27 years!
Looking a little dusty in this shot.
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/79/5885-120719204615.jpeg)
This pond is a commercial product bought at an exhibition from DOW scenics, it's a solid surface (probably perspex) painted a suitable algae green underneath. It was less than £10, complete with reeds and flowers around the edge. It just needed blending into the scene with plants around the edge.
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/93/5885-210520092215.jpeg)
https://www.debrisofwar.com/finished-scenery.html (https://www.debrisofwar.com/finished-scenery.html)
(https://www.debrisofwar.com/uploads/2/1/7/9/21790490/large-pond-txt_orig.jpg)
Quote from: Uplander on August 07, 2022, 04:54:59 PM
On yacht glue. Will any brand be ok? Do you brush it on or pour? Does it stand the test of time?
I've used Rustins, but almost any decent brand should do. Ronseal do it as well. Apply it like paint - several coats, sanding down each before applying the next one. As for standing the test of time, if it can protect yachts spending months on the oggin, it should be good for a few years on a model railway!
Cheers,
Chris
@Uplander (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=9714)
If I remember correctly, when I did the pond I just painted a bit of the baseboard blue, built a wall, (printed card?), to the shape required and added a bit of PVA. One thing to remember is make sure the PVA can not 'escape'. I think I just glued, (PVA of course), the wall to the baseboard and, once dried, started 'filling' the pond. Once the first layer is down, the PVA does not really have to bond to anything, (except itself), so it just dries.
Fair point on test of time Chris, I suppose I was thinking about cracking or whatever. I guess ntpntpntp's experience over 27 years answers that one too.
Quote from: dannyboy on August 07, 2022, 05:34:28 PM
@Uplander (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=9714)
If I remember correctly, when I did the pond I just painted a bit of the baseboard blue, built a wall, (printed card?), to the shape required and added a bit of PVA. One thing to remember is make sure the PVA can not 'escape'. I think I just glued, (PVA of course), the wall to the baseboard and, once dried, started 'filling' the pond. Once the first layer is down, the PVA does not really have to bond to anything, (except itself), so it just dries.
Great stuff dannyboy, I think for this toe in the water I am feeling drawn towards PVA or I have two ponds and do one of each!
Thanks for the help all.
I've used and still do use many layers of yacht varnish.
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/124/6067-070822181941.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=124805)
And so have plenty spare to use in the burns on Tiree.
In this case I was using some left over water based floor varnish, which dries clear.
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/124/6067-070822183721.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=124811)
For deeper water I've recently tried resin used for fibreglass with some success, I was looking for the deep see through peaty brown loch water of the Highlands and Islands.
You do have to use the particular dyes for the resin though..
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I've played with the clear craft PVA from The Works. It's definitely not as sticky as a proper woodworking PVA, more like a paper glue than a woodworking glue but that's fair enough.
Don't go too thick with the poured layers or it will create a meniscus at the edges.
Quote from: ntpntpntp on August 07, 2022, 06:39:16 PM
Don't go too thick with the poured layers or it will create a meniscus at the edges.
Had to Google this :doh:
As for yacht varnish, I use a thick brush and let the varnish find its own level.
Quote from: port perran on August 07, 2022, 07:52:49 PM
As for yacht varnish, I use a thick brush and let the varnish find its own level.
Thanks for that - as a matter of interest, do you sand between layers?
i just use cheap white pva glue from poundland--it costs a £!--and dries clear. I built up several layers just pouring it on where i wanted it--and let each layer set clear first. You can create quite a clear depth to the water--as well as adding weeds junk and crap as you go.
water tower---(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/124/847-070822202426.jpeg)
Quote from: Uplander on August 07, 2022, 08:06:24 PM
Quote from: port perran on August 07, 2022, 07:52:49 PM
As for yacht varnish, I use a thick brush and let the varnish find its own level.
Thanks for that - as a matter of interest, do you sand between layers?
No, I think that's just going to make a mess
Another product to try is artist's gloss medium. Water based, so easy clean up.
Jon
My river on Neraland 2 is brown HUmbrol enamel with about a dozen coats of varnish.
I'll try to get a picture posted tomorrow for you ...
Just wondering if you have checked the water section of the Scenery board, Uplander? :thumbsup:
I have used varnish on my own layout, as it pre-dates the excellent Woodland Scenics products.
One trick I did learn from America though, is to not paint the water blue. It is not blue. In fact if you look at photos, water often appears black, especially if it's deep.
I therefore use black, which, with a gloss finish, acts as a low grade mirror that reflects it's surroundings, as real water does.
This is a flooded quarry on my layout:
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/93/255-160520041732-934321202.jpeg)
Quote from: Jon898 on August 07, 2022, 08:57:37 PM
Another product to try is artist's gloss medium. Water based, so easy clean up.
Jon
Thanks - strangely, this is exactly what my wife who dabbles with paints suggested at the outset. She also tells me I don't listen. :laugh:
Quote from: Bealman on August 08, 2022, 02:12:30 AM
Just wondering if you have checked the water section of the Scenery board, Uplander? :thumbsup:
I just searched forum-wide for the word "water" - will have a look there too though. Your quarry looks pretty amazing. Although I started off thinking about products like Woodland Scenics I am now minded to try one of the solutions suggested herein.
Look forward to the picture PGN.
As ever ... thanks for all the help.
Simon
I copied techniques in the American Model Railroader magazine, which frequently mentioned gloss medium. I had no idea what this was, so I used gloss varnish instead.
Tip: apply a layer, let dry, then another and so on ad infintum - don't pour it. The top surface forms a skin, but the stuff underneath doesn't dry! :thumbsup:
Quote from: Bealman on August 08, 2022, 08:01:11 AM
Tip: apply a layer, let dry, then another and so on ad infintum - don't pour it. The top surface forms a skin, but the stuff underneath doesn't dry! :thumbsup:
Thanks Bealman - when you say "don't pour" I guess you brush thin layers on? Probably an obvious question but I would like to get it right if I go down this route. Also, are you in the "don't sand" between layers camp?
Thanks
Simon
Absolutely, when it comes to sanding.
Yes, a layer at an time, just a brushful. Let it dry, make sure there's no debris or dust on it, and away you go again.
However, if I was starting out now, I'd definitely try the WS products and follow their video tutorials.
Incidentally, on all of the water features on my layout, I followed tips from US mags.... I don't model the stream or river bed at all. A flat piece of wood painted black. Apply layers of gloss, and let the reflections do the work.
Black sounds drastic, but to my eyes it works!
Has anyone tried using Modge Podge (Gloss)? I've read a few good reports of using it and was going to give it a try for my next bit of seawater that I need to create.
My understanding is that the Woodland Scenics Realistic Water is the same thing as gloss medium which can be bought in art supplies shops. I've used RW and I'm very happy with it.
Regarding Bealman's comments on the appropriate colour to paint the bottom of the water body, I think the issue is a bit tricky. Real water bodies show a colour which arises from the viewing angle. At steep viewing angles, the water is the colour of the material suspended in it whether it be plankton (green), silt (brown), or tannins and lignins (almost black). At lower viewing angles the water takes on the colour reflected from the sky or background.
Webbo
That is indeed correct, Ian Webbo, sorry ;)
I think that when you decide on a water feature on your model, you think about where it's going to be viewed from most often.
I guess I'd better get down to baseboard level, then! Gonna give me back hell though ;D
To model a steep mountain Burn / stream, I found it was a good idea to pour it, but a little at a time from the top, the minimum you need to reach the bottom and thinned with the appropriate substance. It's the only way to get realistic puddling in the right places..
As it's Highlands and Islands I used a mixture of black and brown for the river and loch bed..
Soon be modelling the sea bed / harbour, which will need a completely different technique, as I wanted real depth . In the Hebridies IF there are no real waves you can see the sea bed and hull of ferries below the water line..
So my "Sea" is a sheet of clear plastic over a sea bed of white sand with odd patches of with light colouring in places and a lot of seaweed modelled clinging to rocks. The plastic will then be " rippled" with clear and matt varnish and the odd bit of colour where appropriate.
Hi Uplander - late to the party as usual, but great to see you and I'd like to add a couple of observations as a relative beginner myself. No affiliation, but I've used the WS water products (Realistic Water and Water Effects) to good use, along with some Mod Podge and fantastic, inspirational videos from Luke Towan over on YouTube.
What I found looking at real places is that water is never still, even on the small puddles or ponds, In fact it's the movement of water that draws our eye. It's usually on the dark side too, rarely reflecting a blue sky.
Here's a couple of pictures of water features on my own layout. The first is not something you'd use, but I used Luke's ideas to create a small waterfall. The second is the still part of a canal above a lock, but there are still ripples and probably wind-blown movements on the water surface, even though it's a quiet time around nightfall.
Hopefully might help you visualize the effects you're looking for.
Again, nice to meet you!
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/124/6889-100822043322.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=124894)
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/124/6889-100822043458.png) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=124895)
Hello LASteve, hope you are doing well. The pictures are inspiring (as with all the others) - I just love the waterfall but laughed at your use of the term "relative beginner".
I watched a Luke Towan yesterday using Envirotex Lite and another Kathy Millat one pitching same against WS, tons of ideas here in the thread too but I am still undecided. With help from the art department (down the hall) we have experimented with a few different things too such as gloss medium and the latter seemed to work well.
I plan a ditch / stream running in and out of the pond which is likely to be flatter than the pond surface but I take on board your comments about water rarely being totally flat whatever the circumstances.
Overall ... still not sure but as of now I quite like the idea of boat varnish ... but that's just how I am seeing things at the moment.
Thanks as ever for the post. :wave:
I took another couple of pictures this evening of a neglected area of the layout behind the TMD and the old turntable. These puddles were WS Realistic Water making sure the underlayer was painted a suitable black/blue black. Marine varnish would have easily worked just as well, but I used what was on hand.
Thanks for prompting me to take a look around the layout again! Sometimes I tend to focus on the problems or the projects in hand and forget to enjoy what is already there.
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/124/6889-110822055231.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=124974)
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/124/6889-110822055313.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=124975)
Love the air of neglect, with the overgrown shrubs by the retaining wall. I like the look of the wall itself, too; what make is it please?
Cheers,
Chris
Quote from: Papyrus on August 11, 2022, 12:36:48 PM
Love the air of neglect, with the overgrown shrubs by the retaining wall. I like the look of the wall itself, too; what make is it please?
Thanks, Chris, exactly the look I was going for. The retaining walls are Metcalfe kits, they make them in stone (these ones) and red brick.
Steve' s rendition of puddles @LASteve (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=6889) using ws products adds to the neglected feel what with weeds and Rainwater makes an ideal scene. Also same methods can bem used if modelling a canal or river
Quote from: LASteve on August 11, 2022, 03:45:57 PM
The retaining walls are Metcalfe kits, they make them in stone (these ones) and red brick.
Thanks, Steve. I'm quite surprised - they don't look 'cardboardy' at all, which I find is often the case with Metcalfe kits. Very nicely put together. (PS. Sorry, on re-reading, that sounds patronising. Not meant to be... Shut up, Christopher, and stop digging yourself into a hole :dighole: )
Cheers,
Chris
Quote from: Papyrus on August 11, 2022, 04:24:19 PM
(PS. Sorry, on re-reading, that sounds patronising. Not meant to be...
Not to worry, I didn't take it that way at all. I've tried to give the Metcalfe kits some texture and some weathering where I've used them, so I'll take it as a compliment! :beers:
Which look good.. I also add a little brown and green to make water murky.
I know WS say a max pour for Realistic Water of 1/8" in any one go but somewhere I seem to remember reference being made to a maximum overall depth. Could anyone offer thoughts on maximum depth or maximum number of layers?
Many thanks
Simon
A couple of poor pictures of the water effects on Tiree.
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/125/6067-130822182756.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=125032)
This picture is of a emergency water tank , the one outside our building at RAF Neatishead had a good collection of very large goldfish in it..
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/125/6067-130822183205.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=125033)
Quote from: Uplander on August 12, 2022, 02:10:51 PM
I know WS say a max pour for Realistic Water of 1/8" in any one go but somewhere I seem to remember reference being made to a maximum overall depth. Could anyone offer thoughts on maximum depth or maximum number of layers?
Many thanks
Simon
@Webbo (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=4229) ?
Yes, Woodland Scenics says a max depth in one pour of 1/8", but I've not read anything about a maximum number of pours. But, I don't think you necessarily need more than one pour of this thickness to achieve a good illusion of depth. I think the trick is getting the bottom painted so as to make things look like you've got a gradation into deep water.
Webbo
Quote from: Webbo on August 14, 2022, 11:07:59 AM
Yes, Woodland Scenics says a max depth in one pour of 1/8", but I've not read anything about a maximum number of pours. But, I don't think you necessarily need more than one pour of this thickness to achieve a good illusion of depth. I think the trick is getting the bottom painted so as to make things look like you've got a gradation into deep water.
Webbo
Thanks Webbo, what you say makes sense - appreciate the post :)