Picking the brains of the collective!
We have received an invite from our local council to have solar panels fitted. They are obviously having a big drive on this - they are going to negotiate a contract with a supplier, and the more people who sign up, the cheaper it will be (so they say...). We are seriously tempted - we have an ideal south-facing roof. Before we sign up, I thought I would see what other folks' experiences have been. Basically, have you had panels fitted, and do you think you got the benefit you were expecting? They are also offering storage batteries for saving your 'excess' electricity. Would that be worth it, and how much room do they take up? All advice gratefully received!
Cheers,
Chris
There's a thread on RMWEB from someone who's had panels fitted under a similar scheme in Essex, might be worth a look.
Regards,
John P
Right Chris, this may take some time.
Having owned S/P's for some five years, I'll tell you what I know.
Assuming you are talking about photo-voltaic solar panels, there are two guises.
If the council are paying for them, then they will get the F.I.T. ( feed in tarif), so essentially you get "free" electicity while they are generating, but that is all you get. They are in essence renting your roof and paying you with electricty.
However, if you actually own the system, you will get the free electricity, plus the F.I.T.
F.I.T. currently (for me) is worked out as follows:- for every kilowatt/hour my system produces, they pay me about 5pence. They also deem that 50% of what I produce is exported to the national grid, so the pay me another 6pence on those. (so actually getting payed twice on that 50%). These prices rise every year, but not nearly as fast as buying lecy from the supplier. (EG, I buy from them at 17p a kw/h, but they only buy from me at 6p a kw/h, not fair is it?)
However the government keeps moving the goalposts, so those prices may not be valid now. People who got in early (10years ago) are getting 14p+ a kw/h, so over time F.I.T. has reduced, you may not even get 6p now, you'd have to look into that.
My thoughts are don't look at it as an investment, more like dead money, a bit like buying a car. For me, I bought them (10 Panels) for £5k out of savings, but the interest I lost on that 5k savings, was made up by the first cheque from the lecy co., plus I got another 3 cheques, and over 2000kw/h of free electricity in the first year of ownership. As for payback time, I reckon 10 years will do it. As the F.I.T. payments are only going to be payed for a maximum of twenty years, that'll give me ten years of making a profit, that's if I live that long. As they say, "you can't take it with you", and that includes solar panels, so if you move houses, no more free lecy or quarterly cheques.
So there you go, warts and all, as briefly as I could.
Wow! Thanks, @TrevL (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=5583) , that's very comprehensive. It will obviously be necessary to find out what the buy-back rate will be. If the rates are that poor, perhaps the storage battery might be the better bet. Ten years payback time is about what I guessed it might be - we don't plan on moving out any time soon! Time to read the small print...
Cheers,
Chris
My knowledge is limited, but as far as I'm aware, they also have an effective lifespan.
I believe it's around 10 years also, but I'd look into that too.
Just remember, there's no such thing as a free lunch.
Just checked on Google, seems I'm out of date, they're saying in 20 years, they'll still be 90% efficient.
As regards the scheme you're being offered, I refer you back to the no such thing as a free lunch.
Quote from: emjaybee on September 17, 2021, 04:10:20 PM
Just remember, there's no such thing as a free lunch.
Oh yes! As I said, you have to read the small print!
Cheers,
Chris
Renting roof space to a company can cause headaches if you decide to sell as the contact also needs moving to the new owners in addition to the basic title deeds of the house.
Several of these deals are also time limited (as the efficiency of the panels decreases over time). At the end of the time period you may be offered a price to buy the panels (at which point they, and the power they generate) become yours. Otherwise, they get removed from your roof with all the headaches involved in any building work.
It may be worth monitoring how much power you use, and when. Most of us don't use much electricity during the day which is when solar panels are producing their power. Have you got an electric immersion heater that can use the power?
There may also be planning or building regs considerations, especially if you live in a conservation area or it's a listed building.
Steven B.
There is also a scheme with the batteries too.
The lecy co. will subsidise the cost of the battery, but they expect to call on it to supply the grid in times of high demand. You pay £1500 (approx) for the privilege.
Without subsidy it's about £4500, but you get to keep all the lecy you have stored.
You pay your money, your take your choice.
We bought ours in 2012 (can't remember the cost) and we have had back over £14000
I paid outright for mine (£4k). At the time, battery storage wasn't viable (2010).
I am currently paid 56p per Kilowatt hour with another 4p per Kilowatt hour for assumed "export".
To date it's earned me in cash, just over £7k.
I have no idea what it has saved me over the years because I haven't needed to buy electricity when the sun is shining.
Quote from: GrahamB on September 17, 2021, 05:30:49 PM
I paid outright for mine (£4k). At the time, battery storage wasn't viable (2010).
I am currently paid 56p per Kilowatt hour with another 4p per Kilowatt hour for assumed "export".
To date it's earned me in cash, just over £7k.
I have no idea what it has saved me over the years because I haven't needed to buy electricity when the sun is shining.
56 p per kwh ? where do i sign ?
Quote from: Bigmac on September 17, 2021, 09:42:20 PM
Quote from: GrahamB on September 17, 2021, 05:30:49 PM
I paid outright for mine (£4k). At the time, battery storage wasn't viable (2010).
I am currently paid 56p per Kilowatt hour with another 4p per Kilowatt hour for assumed "export".
To date it's earned me in cash, just over £7k.
I have no idea what it has saved me over the years because I haven't needed to buy electricity when the sun is shining.
56 p per kwh ? where do i sign ?
You can't anymore. The amount paid was reduced over the years. The only way you can get this rate now is to buy my house or a house that had solar panels fitted in 2010.
"You can't anymore. The amount paid was reduced over the years. The only way you can get this rate now is to buy my house or a house that had solar panels fitted in 2010."
so the elec co pays you 56p per kwh and sells the units for about 16p
oookaaaaay.
slightly off topic my energy company went bang this week ( utility point )
Missed that. We were with Utility Point for a while. They were rubbish.
The RMWeb thread John mentions is worth a read (it's what I came here to post), it was in the last week or two, sure a search will find it. I wonder if we'll get a similar offer, as a fellow West Sussex dweller!
As said in earlier posts, the answer could be very long!
However, a short summary. Hampshire offered a similar scheme to us earlier this year. The feed in tariff is currently around 5p per kW.hr. So the business case looks something like this:
you pay for the generating kit and installation.
You get "free" electricity when conditions are right. But you have to use it when it's being generated. So, big consumer appliances, dishwasher, washing machine, oven etc. all need to be used at the right time to get maximum benefit.
You pay for maintenance, repair and replacement of kit (panels every 20 years, inverter every 10 years).
Surplus energy is sold to the grid.
You buy energy back at around 20p per kW.hr.
Batteries are very expensive.
So basically the energy company makes 300% profit on your investment and risk.
In summary, there is no economic case to do this. If you want to help save the planet....
PS. If you are serious about going ahead have a proper independent structural survey to make sure that the roof and house can take the extra loading.
Hope that this helps.
We installed a 2.2kw.hr system in 2010 in the early days of the FIT scheme. Investment and interest was fully paid back in 6.5 years based on savings in our consumption and the FIT income. We are retired but holiday a lot, but when we are home, we maximise our use of generated electricity by using it for high consumption appliances like washing machine, dishwasher, iron, etc. and even a tumle drier once in a while. Since reaching payback we have received another £4500 in FIT payments. Reliability of the panels and inverter have been good and last year we generated our highest annual amount of power, so no serious degradation in the capacity of the system. Average generation has been 2000kw.hr per annum. As a precaution this year I have replaced the 11 year old inverter which was less than £700.
An unexpected bonus of having panels on the roof comes from the insulation they provide, so a cooler loft in summer, and warmer in winter.
One thing worth bearing in mind is that access to roof will usually require the erection of scaffolding which can be £500 in my experience. So if there is a problem with panels or wiring, the cost of maintenance and repair will always have a starting point of the scaffolding cost.
Update on scaffolding costs.
Accessing a roof, full length via scaffolding, will be well over £1000.
I have clients who have recently had scaffolding erected.
Quote from: njee20 on September 17, 2021, 10:59:53 PM
Missed that. We were with Utility Point for a while. They were rubbish.
The RMWeb thread John mentions is worth a read (it's what I came here to post), it was in the last week or two, sure a search will find it. I wonder if we'll get a similar offer, as a fellow West Sussex dweller!
My first year with UPoint was really cheap compared to previous years..but second year hike was big..started year 3 months overpaid. Thought i had lost that but i understand now its safe. Remains to be seen what new supplier will charge..
Quote from: Bigmac on September 17, 2021, 10:26:02 PM
.........so the elec co pays you 56p per kwh and sells the units for about 16p
oookaaaaay.
Actually the Government pays the company and the company pays me.
The company that pays me doesn't have to be the same company I buy my energy from.
The amount paid goes up each year in line with RPI (Not the rip off CPI).
It makes perfect financial sense to me as a solar panel owner. :D
Like Graham, I've had solar panels for over 10 years - the government subsidy runs for another 15 years I think, so it's been a great deal.
Nowadays, the biggest saving is if you can consume the electricity that you generate. At, say, 20p per unit, you could save £2 a day from your bill if you generate and use 10Kw. And, of course, you know electricity prices aren't going to go down, so that saving will only increase.
I use timers to run things like an immersion heater during peak generation hours. I still sturggle to consume more than about 50% of the amount I generate. If you can get batteries instead, that's likely to make the whole thing a lot more attractive, since you should be able to benefit from all the "free" electricity you produce from your panels. The batteries aren't ridiculous sizes, and some of them can be mounted outside. There's also circuitry and electrical work that has to be done to safely connect the batteries into your house wiring. If that's done at the same time as the solar panels, it won't be any extra cost.
I'd like to add batteries to my solar panels, but I wouldn't recover the money it would cost to buy them and fit them. You'd need some kind of subsidy for it to make any kind of financial sense.
- Andy
Quote from: GrahamB on September 18, 2021, 08:40:50 AM
Quote from: Bigmac on September 17, 2021, 10:26:02 PM
.........so the elec co pays you 56p per kwh and sells the units for about 16p
oookaaaaay.
Actually the Government pays the company and the company pays me.
The company that pays me doesn't have to be the same company I buy my energy from.
The amount paid goes up each year in line with RPI (Not the rip off CPI).
It makes perfect financial sense to me as a solar panel owner. :D
i bet it does !
Thanks for all the replies, people - that's a lot of information to digest! It will obviously pay me to look at the deal very closely, and if we go ahead to be very canny with how we run appliances. I will register an interest and see what they are offering.
Cheers everybody,
Chris
Just make sure you don't install them in the shade.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/6129/5937685450_323a8be300_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/a3Gc25)
Solar panels. (https://flic.kr/p/a3Gc25) by Jim Easterbrook (https://www.flickr.com/photos/jim_easterbrook/), on Flickr
I'm impressed by the optimism of our English friends who seem to expect the sun to shine on them from time to time. :D
:laughabovepost: :laughabovepost:
Good one! ;D ;)
Yes. Hilarious. :scowl:
I presume solar panels would be popular in Oz, but no doubt you have the solar panel boa, which eats them.
Quote from: Stuart Down Under on September 19, 2021, 01:48:12 AM
I'm impressed by the optimism of our English friends who seem to expect the sun to shine on them from time to time. :D
In our part of Worcestershire the sun shines all day, but we have to get our heads above the clouds to see it. I remain surprised in countries where the sun shines in cloudless skies that the natives run their air conditioning all day and complain about the cost of their fossil fuel generated electricity.
Quote from: woodbury22uk on September 19, 2021, 08:26:52 AM
I remain surprised in countries where the sun shines in cloudless skies that the natives run their air conditioning all day and complain about the cost of their fossil fuel generated electricity.
You are completely correct that we need to abandon coal as a power source, but that will happen as solar supplies increase. In my case, we have 33 panels delivering a peak of 10kW, and even on a spring day like today, that equates to 50kWh. The 14 kWh battery is nicely charged to run the house through the night. ;)
@Stuart Down Under (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=6278) Sounds like you have cracked it. I sized my small system to match what we could realistically consume, and battery storage was not an option then. I have looked at adding a battery to the current system but cannot make a financial case for it. We use 75% of what we generate in the summer, and in the winter just running the base load devices like fridges, freezers, clocks, and various electronics uses everything we generate.
Our roof was 95 yrs old, and the tiles were sound, as long as none breathed on them!
We had the roof done first ( 2018) , then 17 panels. + 2.5 kw battery..we used the same scaffolding for both jobs.
This summer, Solar century had to come and redo the work done by a particular fitting gang all over Ealing - they had to fork out for scaffolding to sort out the roof panels wiring!
We had pigeon guards fitted at the saMe time. - worth doing on initial fitting - they breed and c**p all over the wiring otherwise.
We make £350pa from the FIt payments - better return than the avg. savings accounts!
I've had a back-of-the-envelope estimate from the company - installation cost just shy of £6000 for 10 panels, should produce about 70% of our electricity needs. All subject to a man coming and crawling around in our loft, of course, but it's beginning to look worthwhile.
Cheers,
Chris
Quote from: Papyrus on September 19, 2021, 03:46:31 PM
I've had a back-of-the-envelope estimate from the company - installation cost just shy of £6000 for 10 panels, should produce about 70% of our electricity needs. All subject to a man coming and crawling around in our loft, of course, but it's beginning to look worthwhile.
Cheers,
Chris
I have to say that 70% sounds like optomistic sales speak. I have 10 x 285w panels and I've just checked my consumption against production for full years 2018, 2019 & 2020 and it works out at almost exactly 53% (within £1).
Quote from: Papyrus on September 19, 2021, 03:46:31 PM
I've had a back-of-the-envelope estimate from the company - installation cost just shy of £6000 for 10 panels, should produce about 70% of our electricity needs. All subject to a man coming and crawling around in our loft, of course, but it's beginning to look worthwhile.
Cheers,
Chris
I'd agree that sounds optimistic. Mine make sense because of the payments but the panels don't do much during the winter when my energy consumption is highest.
70% may be optimistic unless you are home during the day and able to use what you generate. We have regularly used 75% from our 2.2 Kw.hr system during the summer, and 100% in the winter when we tend to holiday. But it takes planning to use high consumption appliances, sometimes, individually when generation is at its highest. There is a gradient of generation over the day from low at sunrise to highest in the middle of the day and then declining to sunset. £6000 for a 3.5kw.hr system ought to include battery storage to offset the night consumption.
Update
Thanks once again for everybody's contributions. They were very helpful in coming to a decision.
In short, we now have 12 panels on our roof - the surveyor said we had enough room for a couple more than I estimated. They were fitted a couple of weeks ago at a cost of about £5500, including the scaffolding. We were very impressed by how efficiently it was all done - the fitters had finished by lunchtime. We decided against a battery - it wouldn't have made economic sense at present. The fitter agreed and he said the prices are bound to fall in the next few years and they are easy to add on. We had a couple of peerless sunny days either side of the solstice when we generated over 30 Kwh, most of which went to waste because the feed-in hasn't been set up yet, but it shows what our maximum will be. We are very impressed by how much we have saved already - we've used virtually no gas and we have not spent more than 50p a day on electricity. All right, it is the height of summer; things will be different in winter, but so far we feel we have made the right decision.
Cheers,
Chris
@Papyrus (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=2975) I'm glad you've got solar panels. I got mine at the start of the FIT payments and am very happy but I'm a bit confused by a couple of your comments.
I would go for batteries in a flash but easy to add on? Not really. Unless they have sold you an inverter that already supports batteries, you will need a new inverter. They're not cheap.
"Feed in hasn't been set up yet"? Are you expecting a payment for exported electric? I thought that had stopped and the electric company simply smiled and thanked you for your contribution. Another reason to get batteries and keep all you can.
This is the best time of the year for solar. It really drops off in the winter.
Quote from: GrahamB on June 26, 2022, 01:19:58 PM
@Papyrus (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=2975)
"Feed in hasn't been set up yet"? Are you expecting a payment for exported electric? I thought that had stopped and the electric company simply smiled and thanked you for your contribution. Another reason to get batteries and keep all you can.
You are correct that the government-backed scheme has finished, but what payments you can expect depends on which power company you are with. I think most offer you something, but the big companies are notoriously stingy, only 1 or 2p per Kwh. I'm with Octopus, and they buy your spare for 7.5p per Kwh. Even if I only sell them 10 Kwh, that will more than cover what I am buying from them at present.
Cheers,
Chris
Quote from: Papyrus on June 26, 2022, 10:20:27 AM
Update
Thanks once again for everybody's contributions. They were very helpful in coming to a decision.
In short, we now have 12 panels on our roof - the surveyor said we had enough room for a couple more than I estimated. They were fitted a couple of weeks ago at a cost of about £5500, including the scaffolding. We were very impressed by how efficiently it was all done - the fitters had finished by lunchtime. We decided against a battery - it wouldn't have made economic sense at present. ......
The other one (which I'm studying very closely) for batteries is "vehicle to grid". ie. use your electric car as the storage battery. Whether it works for you depends on (a) having a suitable car, and place to plug it in and (b) how you use it. Nissan have run trials of this for a few years now, and it looks like no impact on vehicle battery longevity. A number of electric cars on sale can do V2G, but not all by a long chalk. The charger hardware for V2G is currently quite expensive (£5K vs under 1K for a normal charge point).
- Nigel
Quote from: Papyrus on June 26, 2022, 02:35:03 PM
Quote from: GrahamB on June 26, 2022, 01:19:58 PM
@Papyrus (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=2975)
"Feed in hasn't been set up yet"? Are you expecting a payment for exported electric? I thought that had stopped and the electric company simply smiled and thanked you for your contribution. Another reason to get batteries and keep all you can.
You are correct that the government-backed scheme has finished, but what payments you can expect depends on which power company you are with. I think most offer you something, but the big companies are notoriously stingy, only 1 or 2p per Kwh. I'm with Octopus, and they buy your spare for 7.5p per Kwh. Even if I only sell them 10 Kwh, that will more than cover what I am buying from them at present.
Cheers,
Chris
That's useful to know. Thanks for that.
Another option is to use excess power to heat the hot water ie when battery is full or not using power otherwise ( instead of gas / mains electric) - better value than exporting
An option is to install install either the Marlec iBoost or Myenergi Eddi;( wireless control)
https://www.marlec.co.uk/product/solar-iboost/ (https://www.marlec.co.uk/product/solar-iboost/)
https://myenergi.com/product/eddi/ (https://myenergi.com/product/eddi/)
Yes, I forgot to mention that our installation included an immersion heater diverter. That's mainly why we have spent so little on bought gas and electricity since!
Cheers,
Chris
You've picked a good time to do it, especially as the cost of lecy has risen so suddenly. The savings will so much more now, which is really what it's all about. :thumbsup:
Batteries are going to become more important if this happens (And I've no doubt it will) https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-61949246 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-61949246)
Yes, I've seen Octopus's scheme on their website. The details can make your brain hurt but in simple terms the price you pay varies on a half-hourly basis, depending on demand in the wider world. As you would expect, it tends to be most expensive in the early evening and cheapest in the middle of the night. They say that, in the very cheapest periods, you can actually be paid to use surplus electricity! It does seem very complicated, and we don't use sufficient in the quieter periods to make it worthwhile, but anybody with night-storage heaters would probably do well.
Cheers,
Chris
Interesting facts coming up...
I have just received our latest energy bill which marks 6 months of our solar panels. Compared to the same period last year we have used 40% less gas and 67% less electricity! Admittedly we have been very frugal this last few months but even so that is far better than I was expecting. At current rates we have saved £22 on gas and £678 on electricity. Plus we have earned £105 from the electricity we have exported back to the grid so we are about £800 up in 6 months. At this rate we will have recouped the installation cost in 3.5 years.
Happy bunny! :claphappy: :claphappy: :claphappy:
Cheers,
Chris
I've generated 4,732.81kWh this year. From. 4.8KV array ( 17 panels)
I haven't converted this to LSD yet,, but it must have helped!
Either way, you should get a fair amount of LSD from the savings :doh:
Quote from: Railwaygun on December 24, 2022, 12:10:24 AM
I've generated 4,732.81kWh this year. From. 4.8KV array ( 17 panels)
Very similar to us then. We've generated about 2700 kWh in 6 months from 12 panels. I don't know how your house is oriented but we are fortunate to have a perfect south-facing roof, with an uninterrupted view of the sky, except for this time of the year when it is slightly shaded by a neighbour's house until 0930.
For once, I got something right!
Cheers,
Chris
Quote from: Papyrus on December 26, 2022, 04:51:08 PM
Quote from: Railwaygun on December 24, 2022, 12:10:24 AM
I've generated 4,732.81kWh this year. From. 4.8KV array ( 17 panels)
Very similar to us then. We've generated about 2700 kWh in 6 months from 12 panels. I don't know how your house is oriented but we are fortunate to have a perfect south-facing roof, with an uninterrupted view of the sky, except for this time of the year when it is slightly shaded by a neighbour's house until 0930.
For once, I got something right!
Cheers,
Chris
I forgot the pigeon guards!
However SolarCentury employed cowboy fitters, and Coolpower had to come round and refit every roof in Ealing that the rogues had done!
I got them to fit the guards ( and a local Church Hall! )
10 panels, Enphase micro-inverters, cost about $9000 all up.
Yearly production is around 5MWh. 40% independence from grid.
Quote from: NinOz on December 27, 2022, 06:18:31 AM
10 panels, Enphase micro-inverters, cost about $9000 all up.
Yearly production is around 5MWh. 40% independence from grid.
It's a bit sunnier down there!
Eight south east facing panels in a sometimes sunny Orpington have generated 430kWh in the last three months. We have had them for about seven years and they have paid for themselves and a bit extra now.
Dave
I noticed our solar was not working last week, a visit to the loft showed the inverter's display was completely blank with a slight smell of burnt electronics. Checking the paperwork revealed the system was almost ten years old with just two months left of the inverter's warranty period. Unfortunately the installer went bust shortly after installing it, but they had set up an insurance scheme to cover this eventuality, however the insurers went the same way in 2016. A bit of research showed that repairs to the inverter, a Sunmaster XS3200, were not economical, so it was time for a new one. I only have eight panels, all in the same direction, so I chose a basic model, a Solax X1, which arrived the next day. Installation was straightforward, there are only five wires, the only tricky part was removing the panel's plugs from the inverter. There is a special tool to remove them, just a plastic spanner with two prongs to release the clips, but it can be done with two well positioned screwdrivers like getting the body off a chassis. It was a happy moment when the new inverter started working, and it has built in wifi so that it can be checked without going into the loft, the old one had two fans in it and could just be heard sometimes the new one is fanless with a massive heatsink on it back.
Internals of a Sunmaster XS3200
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/129/88-290123121852.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=129519)
The burnt resistors
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/129/88-290123121812.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=129518)
Wow :o, that could have been a lot more expensive than just a new inverter.