Identifying Kit Wagons

[Gooner1953]

You beat me to it. Is it safe to assume that they're all high ended wagons if they're LSWR models?

I think I'll have to try a few and see which diagrams they match up best to when I see them. They are certainly valid for my period, so I'll add them to the wish list.

No Pete, I've got the full Gramodels set and just to confuse you they're all conventional square flat ends!

I've had an attempt at trying to identify them from Vol 1 of the Southern Wagons Book and it's impossible, there is just not enough information about the wagons that Gramodels have produced and there are too many possibilities in the book. Any diagram and /or running numbers that I was to come up with would be pure guesswork. I've just accepted the fact that they are ex-LSWR, as stated by Graham, and likely to have lasted into SR and early BR days, a sort of Rule #1. Unless Graham comes back to you with an LSWR Diagram number.

Nick

[CarriageShed]

No Pete, I've got the full Gramodels set and just to confuse you they're all conventional square flat ends!

I've had an attempt at trying to identify them from Vol 1 of the Southern Wagons Book and it's impossible, there is just not enough information about the wagons that Gramodels have produced and there are too many possibilities in the book. Any diagram and /or running numbers that I was to come up with would be pure guesswork. I've just accepted the fact that they are ex-LSWR, as stated by Graham, and likely to have lasted into SR and early BR days, a sort of Rule #1. Unless Graham comes back to you with an LSWR Diagram number.

Nick

Thanks for confirmation. It's a shame they're not rounded ends. I think they look more picturesque! Even so, they're still very valid for my period so I'll be sure to get a set in time. Perhaps you'd like to post a photo of each type... for the record, you understand.

If Graham does get in touch with further details then I'll let you know.

[EtchedPixels]

Like this



that one is etched fold up and glued but I've seen some of the other rounded end variants modelled very convincingly from a similar flat ended open (eg the Mathieson ones) with the ends built up using plasticard. The Mathieson wagons are also more appropriate as they model the earlier RCH style with 14' 6 interior space so are shorter than the Peco wagons and more typical of early wagon lengths with the wheels visibly closer to the wagon ends.

Also useful of course is the fact the wagons are planked which means they effectively come with cutting marks if you need to lower the height first 

The one that's a right PITA is modelling dumb buffers because the solebars are overwide on almost all RTR and kit wagons in order to allow for the big fat N gauge wheels, the plastic thickness needed and the long 15mm axles.

The Mathieson ones are better but still a bit wide, and as the dumb buffers should usually extend through the line of the solebars it's a bit obvious. I ended up using 2mmSA conversion axles for dumb buffered wagons.

Alan

[CarriageShed]

Like this



that one is etched fold up and glued but I've seen some of the other rounded end variants modelled very convincingly from a similar flat ended open (eg the Mathieson ones) with the ends built up using plasticard. The Mathieson wagons are also more appropriate as they model the earlier RCH style with 14' 6 interior space so are shorter than the Peco wagons and more typical of early wagon lengths with the wheels visibly closer to the wagon ends.

Definitely like that. A picture says a thousand words.

I hadn't thought about the Mathieson wagons when it came to customisation, but of course they do look better than the Peco versions. I have a few here in PO liveries, and the shorter body length is very apparent.

I definitely have no plans to do dumb buffers, though. Weren't they all replaced by the time of the Grouping, or thereabouts?

...Unless Graham comes back to you with an LSWR Diagram number.

Graham came back to me with a wealth of detail. It was probably the most detailed response you could ever hope for, so full marks to him for taking the time to write it all.

He said:

The wagons are all taken from An Illustrated History of Southern Wagons Vol. 1...

WN01-WN04 and WN07-WN10 is the SR Dia 1316 (p25 of the book). All have wooden chassis as it makes it easier to cast them. You will note from the drawings that the top door has either parallel hinges or crossed hinges, my model reflects this. The wagon has either wooden or steel end posts and it shows. The sheeted wagons have one wooden the other steel ends posts and the ones with sheet rail is depicted with it collapsed over the top board. I have also built open wagons with the tarp rail mechanism on the ends in place [it was] as during various refurbs  - the rail itself was removed but the hinge left until later. This also means the tarp rail can be scratchbuilt in the raised position for additional variety.

WN05, SR Dia 1481, WN06 SR Dia 1410 and WN15 again 1410 but with additional vents and torpedo vents for the roof.

WN16 SR Dia 1673 (p75) the unpriced numbers have yet to be built so if you have a suggestion I'd be happy to hear it.

The War flat is an LNER build, and the RecTank is built, but I need to devise a method of constructing the wire underframe [that makes it] suitable for sale.

The only thing I forgot to ask him about was the cattle wagon, as it seems that I'll need this to replace the entirely incorrect Peco SR cattle wagons.

[Gooner1953]

Graham came back to me with a wealth of detail. It was probably the most detailed response you could ever hope for, so full marks to him for taking the time to write it all.

He said:

The wagons are all taken from An Illustrated History of Southern Wagons Vol. 1...

WN01-WN04 and WN07-WN10 is the SR Dia 1316 (p25 of the book). All have wooden chassis as it makes it easier to cast them. You will note from the drawings that the top door has either parallel hinges or crossed hinges, my model reflects this. The wagon has either wooden or steel end posts and it shows. The sheeted wagons have one wooden the other steel ends posts and the ones with sheet rail is depicted with it collapsed over the top board. I have also built open wagons with the tarp rail mechanism on the ends in place [it was] as during various refurbs  - the rail itself was removed but the hinge left until later. This also means the tarp rail can be scratchbuilt in the raised position for additional variety.

WN05, SR Dia 1481, WN06 SR Dia 1410 and WN15 again 1410 but with additional vents and torpedo vents for the roof.

WN16 SR Dia 1673 (p75) the unpriced numbers have yet to be built so if you have a suggestion I'd be happy to hear it.

The War flat is an LNER build, and the RecTank is built, but I need to devise a method of constructing the wire underframe [that makes it] suitable for sale.

The only thing I forgot to ask him about was the cattle wagon, as it seems that I'll need this to replace the entirely incorrect Peco SR cattle wagons.

That's really useful Pete and I must admit that I found Graham a joy to deal with, he really knows the meaning of customer service! I'm probably going to go for 2mmSA chassis as they look so much better than the Peco ones and there isn't a lot of difference when it comes to price. OK they are a bit more fiddly to build but the end product is worth it. They do 12.25mm axles to take Farish spoked wheels as a stopgap until they get new stocks in of N gauge wheels. I'll put some photos up when I've managed to wade through them all!

Nick

[CarriageShed]

That's really useful Pete and I must admit that I found Graham a joy to deal with, he really knows the meaning of customer service! I'm probably going to go for 2mmSA chassis as they look so much better than the Peco ones and there isn't a lot of difference when it comes to price. OK they are a bit more fiddly to build but the end product is worth it. They do 12.25mm axles to take Farish spoked wheels as a stopgap until they get new stocks in of N gauge wheels. I'll put some photos up when I've managed to wade through them all!

It's strange that Gramodels isn't more widely shouted about, given how customer-friendly Graham is. I almost stumbled across his wares by chance, but I'm glad I did, seeing as everything is to an LSWR diagram and is ideal for my period.

I don't have access to 2mmSA chassis, so I'll go the Peco route and put up with the slightly less realistic chassis. I'll also post photos, in my 'Grouping Workbench' thread, but it may not be in the very near future.

Peter

[EtchedPixels]

I definitely have no plans to do dumb buffers, though. Weren't they all replaced by the time of the Grouping, or thereabouts?

Mostly. The companies banned third party dumb buffer wagons but not things like engineering wagons which incredibly lasted into the 1930s in this form.
(eg SR Dia 1753)

[CarriageShed]

Mostly. The companies banned third party dumb buffer wagons but not things like engineering wagons which incredibly lasted into the 1930s in this form.
(eg SR Dia 1753)

In that case, there's room for a little experimentation there, even if it's just a one-off for the SR engineering department. I'm tempted, dammit.

I've updated the Gramodels list, above, with the covered vans, and have also added the well wagon . There's only the cattle van left with an unknown, so we've done pretty well with that particular list. Let me know if anyone wants other items added.

[CarriageShed]

P&D Marsh produce a bolster wagon, A502, but don't specify what make it is, or what diagram, etc. Does anyone have this kit so that it can be tied down?

[CarriageShed]

Two kits that I've seen recently can best be categorised as follows:

Chivers Finelines Cat No RC910, SR 12T Luggage/PMV General Utility Van Diagram 3103 Built 1934-35. Even plank arrangement with single vent ends, matching this to a first batch built at Ashford in Oct 1934-Mar 1935.
Alternative running numbers: 2181-2230 (later batches will also match this model).

P&D Marsh Cat No A551, SR 12T Luggage/PMV General Utility Van Diagram 3103 Built 1934-35. Even plank arrangement using the single vent ends, matching this to a first batch built at Ashford in Oct 1934-Mar 1935.
Alternative running numbers: 2181-2230 (later batches will also match this model).

P&D Marsh Cat No A551, SR 14T Covcar/CCT Van Diagram 3102 (later 3101) Built 1931-32. Even plank arrangement using the covcar double doors, matching this to a batch built at Ashford in Apr 1931-Feb 1932.
Alternative running numbers: 2371-2460 (later batches will also match this model).

[Chris in Prague]

Many thanks for this very useful information that I've just found.

A quick question, please. I want to get into building SR (and WR) wagons for my North Cornish layout (Cant Cove) which are not available RTR. To get me started I have two P&D Marsh kits: A553 Southern Planked Van and A554c SR Plywood Van. The sticker simply states: fits Peco 10' chassis. Am I correct that this means the 10ft STEEL type solebar WAGON CHASSIS KIT Ref. NR-121? (And NOT the wooden type.)

[CarriageShed]

Without having my books to hand at the moment, I'd say it would almost certainly be the steel frame. If it's the wooden frame then it's much more likely to be a 9ft wheelbase.

If the van is uneven planked or plywood then it will certainly be a steel frame chassis. Both these two were late 1930s and wartime diagrams respectively.

[Chris in Prague]

Many thanks, Pete. That was what i suspected.

Best regards,
Chris

[Chris in Prague]

PS One more question, please, Pete. Would these vans have been painted BR Freight Grey or Bauxite?

[talisman56]

Depends on whether they were fitted or not...

Diagram 1458 (built 1936-39) even-planked, all vacuum-fitted, possible numbers include 47001-100, 48277-322, 49140-67/69-230
Diagram 1455 (built 1939-45) 2+2-planked, unfitted (handbrake only) and vacuum-fitted (vb), numbers include 44719-988, 54001-250 (hb) and 49427-951, 64921-5280 (vb).
Diagram 1452 (built 1945-51) plywood-bodied, all (hb), possible numbers include 50901-1000, 51351-400, 54251-500, 56501-7010.

All remaining (hb) vans were fitted with (vb) after 1956.

Info taken from NGS NGK21 kit (SR 12T Van) notes. The Peco chassis supplied with the NGS kits are the 10'WB steel-solebar ones.

So, the ones marked (vb) would be Bauxite (of whichever shade is applicable for the time period); and from 1950-ish to whenever the (vb) conversion took place, the (hb) wagons would be Grey, and Bauxite thereafter.