I have 7 or 8 items on pre-order from Hattons - some from the early part of last year. I emailed Hattons yesterday and apart from one item, which has a current estimated delivery date of May/June this year, they cannot give me any estimate for delivery for any of the other items!
I know this is not Hattons fault, in fact they have been very helpful (as they always are) in responding to my enquiries about deliveries.
I just find it appalling that Farish and Dapol make announcements about new products in their catalogues which just don't materialise.
It seems to me that, like politicians, they publish what might happen in order to keep customers happy without any real commitment to deliver on their promises. Now that, together with their lack of consistent quality and reliability, is a real turn off.
Why do I still love this hobby - I must be demented (no comments on that please!!)
:NGaugersRule:
new models are announced earlier than in the past to stake out the turf , a few years ago there wasn't much n gauge stuff so was easy not to need to claim. now it seems a race to get claims in then worry about building. it's very much like patenting a product or idea, too soon and you annoy people as it takes time to come out, too late and someone could beat you to it
plus in last few years there has been a step change in employment in china and manufacturing is harder.
To be fair, most of it turns up eventually. I can only think of a couple of things that have been cancelled (Farish 9F and Dapol Pendolino). R&D takes time, particularly when being done in a foreign language on a different continent.
Farish are fairly secretive about their R&D but I know Dapol have had to scrap some work in the past and start from scratch which accounts for some of the delays. Most industries have some projects that get delayed through bad luck, poor research or inadequate investment.
seeing as you can't actually stop someone else building the same train as you (meaning loco, wagon, coach or other) surely the best way to 'beat someone to it' is to just physically release it to the public, then no-one will care who announced it first, just who can get it in customers hands first?
Bob
Yes, I have a lot of sympathy. The classic case was Farish and the Ivatt 260 - as I have commented before on this Forum. Announced initially c 2007/08, with the result that Dapol withdrew some tentative plans to follow up the tank version. And we finally got it last autumn. A very fine loco it is too. Surely they should have realised there would be a major challenge in producing such as small loco before they announced it and held off announcing it for a few years. And Hattons were exemplary over it. When I pre-ordered I signed up for £58 and that is what I paid, although by launch it was already over £80 at their prices.
My A2 is similarly on order at a few pounds less than the now quoted price. Given how similar that is to the A!, my simple mind wonders why that keeps slipping. I certainly wish they kept plans quiet until they had a reasonable basis for giving an availability date. On quality, I must have been lucky, no returns so far, though perhaps I am more forgiving than some. I am not fussed by a little noise or wobble, though I have had very little. My Dapol Ivatt tank needed the keeper plate screws to be slackened by 1/8 of a turn to make it run smoothly. And I had to make a minor repair to the bogie on one of my two B1s. Oh, and a handrail on one of the Jubilees needed straightening. I fail to see why Dapol adopted those silly silver wheels for the Brit and others, and I do not like their shaft through the cab for tender locos. And then the front bogies of Farish Jubilees, B1s etc have a mind of their own, swinging all over the place when putting them on the railer/track; the old Black 5, Compound etc design was more limited in free movement. But these are design issues, not quality as such. Diesels do not seem to suffer from such oddities.
Quote from: mickster04 on January 19, 2015, 09:56:40 PM
seeing as you can't actually stop someone else building the same train as you (meaning loco, wagon, coach or other) surely the best way to 'beat someone to it' is to just physically release it to the public, then no-one will care who announced it first, just who can get it in customers hands first?
Too much competition in a limited market isn't a good thing.
Look at the Voyager: Farish and Dapol both brought out models that were probably in development at the same time, can't comment on the merits of each model as I don't own one, but one way or another it means both companies have lost sales to the other which means they may not recoup development and tooling costs. Too many occurrences of that means losses made and eventually no more company :no:
Paul
Quote from: Portpatrick on January 19, 2015, 09:58:11 PM
Bob
Yes, I have a lot of sympathy. The classic case was Farish and the Ivatt 260 - as I have commented before on this Forum. Announced initially c 2007/08, with the result that Dapol withdrew some tentative plans to follow up the tank version. And we finally got it last autumn. A very fine loco it is too. Surely they should have realised there would be a major challenge in producing such as small loco before they announced it and held off announcing it for a few years. And Hattons were exemplary over it. When I pre-ordered I signed up for £58 and that is what I paid, although by launch it was already over £80 at their prices.
My A2 is similarly on order at a few pounds less than the now quoted price. Given how similar that is to the A!, my simple mind wonders why that keeps slipping. I certainly wish they kept plans quiet until they had a reasonable basis for giving an availability date. On quality, I must have been lucky, no returns so far, though perhaps I am more forgiving than some. I am not fussed by a little noise or wobble, though I have had very little. My Dapol Ivatt tank needed the keeper plate screws to be slackened by 1/8 of a turn to make it run smoothly. And I had to make a minor repair to the bogie on one of my two B1s. Oh, and a handrail on one of the Jubilees needed straightening. I fail to see why Dapol adopted those silly silver wheels for the Brit and others, and I do not like their shaft through the cab for tender locos. And then the front bogies of Farish Jubilees, B1s etc have a mind of their own, swinging all over the place when putting them on the railer/track; the old Black 5, Compound etc design was more limited in free movement. But these are design issues, not quality as such. Diesels do not seem to suffer from such oddities.
A very balanced response - I wish I had your patience and acceptance of the way things are. However I expect Manufacturers to keep their delivery promises and deliver stuff that works out of the box. Perhaps I'm old fashioned but I don't think that's unreasonable!
While I can't talk for Chinese employment,
I think the massive killer is at the moment across the UK outline no matter is it is N gauge or OO there is not that much competition going on so the makers can take their time!
As a consequence things over run or get cancelled after promising so much, at times it feels like there is almost a gentlemen's agreement in place as neither Farish or Dapol seem to want to tread on each others toes and fight for customers over the same model. Now Pauls point is a good one to much competition is as bad as non but surely there needs to be more, personally I feel if we had a 3rd maybe even 4th maker mixed in that would encourage each other to push themselves a little more and maybe expand the classes available not just the liveries.
It would make a more appetising market and scale for people to decide model in instead of getting bored of waiting and moving on to something else!
Sadly as Port Patrick as pointed out it's not only us the customer who loses out but the shop that sells them his Ivatt the going price when it appeared was £80+ and he paid £58 the chances are Hattons may have made a loss through no fault of their own!
As someone who has over £1100 of pre orders for Farish & Dapol stuff (DJM and now Rapido not counted), I do get tired of waiting for them but the excitement value when they get released partly makes up for the wait.
However, what sticks in my craw is not being able to budget properly such that I know when my wallet will get clobbered :veryangry:
It will be interesting to see who gets the class 59 to market first - Dapol or DJM (not that I want one)
Quote from: Karhedron on January 19, 2015, 09:55:46 PM
To be fair, most of it turns up eventually. I can only think of a couple of things that have been cancelled (Farish 9F and Dapol Pendolino). R&D takes time, particularly when being done in a foreign language on a different continent.
Farish are fairly secretive about their R&D but I know Dapol have had to scrap some work in the past and start from scratch which accounts for some of the delays. Most industries have some projects that get delayed through bad luck, poor research or inadequate investment.
Karhedron. Thanks for the reply.
There seems to something fundamentally wrong with your thinking here - and I'm not trying to put you down here but..
The manufacturers of N gauge products are there to provide us with a service i.e. Product delivered to the required quality within promised timescales. That is no different to any other product on the planet. Why should N gauge be different?
Product which turns up eventually is not acceptable
Product which does not work out of the box is not acceptable
If we continue to give N gauge manufacturers the benefit of the doubt for their failings then things will not improve.
I love N gauge and when products work well they are a joy to behold - but it doesn't happen often enough.
Quote from: newportnobby on January 19, 2015, 10:14:54 PM
As someone who has over £1100 of pre orders for Farish & Dapol stuff (DJM and now Rapido not counted), I do get tired of waiting for them but the excitement value when they get released partly makes up for the wait.
However, what sticks in my craw is not being able to budget properly such that I know when my wallet will get clobbered :veryangry:
It will be interesting to see who gets the class 59 to market first - Dapol or DJM (not that I want one)
I must admit that the main advantage of delays to release of products is the boost to my bank balance in the short term!!
:beers:
I wouldn't mind so much but I pre ordered a Mk 3 DVT from Hattons on the basis the guy on Dapols facebook said they would be here in October...
Bob,
Your are 100% right it isn't acceptable for the makers to have us on a leash waiting for them to finally produce a model.
If fact could it not be said it is short sighted of them? I know its not like magic but in OO there seems to be a noticeable difference in turn around time, now yeah they have a bigger market.
Would they not increase their market in N gauge if they kept to the same standard and produced things in a timely manner.
Although Bob boasting the bank account? Because of my purchases and the fact things tend to come out all at once my bank account resembles a bloody rollercoaster! :P
Quote from: austinbob on January 19, 2015, 10:05:54 PM
A very balanced response - I wish I had your patience and acceptance of the way things are. However I expect Manufacturers to keep their delivery promises and deliver stuff that works out of the box. Perhaps I'm old fashioned but I don't think that's unreasonable!
Agreed, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect manufacturers to release models a year or two after they've staked their claim. 7-8 years from announcement to release is ridiculous, it just stifles the market and irritates the customers (and fabricating release dates doesn't exactly help customer loyalty). The only way this practice will stop is if the larger manufacturers start listening to their customers (unlikely), or if one of them releases an item the other staked a claim to many years ago. As has already been said, any item is fair game, but Farish turning up at Warley with an unannounced 142 to hit the shops that same week would perhaps make Dapol think twice about announcing stuff almost a decade in advance. They don't even seem to be able to schedule their re-runs properly, I've had an IC Swallow DVT on pre-order at Rails for almost a year now. When I phoned Dapol in March I was told it was due for release during the summer, but the fact that there's frost on the ground and I'm wearing a jumper would suggest they've slightly missed their target.
JB
Quote from: austinbob on January 19, 2015, 10:20:44 PM
Quote from: Karhedron on January 19, 2015, 09:55:46 PM
To be fair, most of it turns up eventually. I can only think of a couple of things that have been cancelled (Farish 9F and Dapol Pendolino). R&D takes time, particularly when being done in a foreign language on a different continent.
Farish are fairly secretive about their R&D but I know Dapol have had to scrap some work in the past and start from scratch which accounts for some of the delays. Most industries have some projects that get delayed through bad luck, poor research or inadequate investment.
Karhedron. Thanks for the reply.
There seems to something fundamentally wrong with your thinking here - and I'm not trying to put you down here but..
The manufacturers of N gauge products are there to provide us with a service i.e. Product delivered to the required quality within promised timescales. That is no different to any other product on the planet. Why should N gauge be different?
Product which turns up eventually is not acceptable
Product which does not work out of the box is not acceptable
If we continue to give N gauge manufacturers the benefit of the doubt for their failings then things will not improve.
I love N gauge and when products work well they are a joy to behold - but it doesn't happen often enough.
To be fair, I think the manufacturers could and would argue that they don't promise a time scale. They give a rough date when an item is expected........When they launch the product, there's no reason to believe that they are being deceitful about that date, but it certainly isn't a promise.
Scotty,
I know timings slip but when say Dapol on there product development page say due 3rd quarter 2015 it is reasonable to expect it then but they announce an guestimate and let shops start to take pre orders then that's unfair on the shop and the modeller.
Would it not be better just to say in product development and then announcements in the news section to say this is how far we have got?
Then you are not getting hopes up or making people wait or orders that can come in months even possibly years later and potentially tying up people modelling fun which could go on another model?
This a subject that has been gone over so many times, and whatever the manufacturer's do, they can't win...
If they announce intentions well in advance, they get criticised for the lead times. If they leave it to the last minute they get complaints from others that they didn't have time to save up for it!
When they announce models, they don't give a firm date because there is no way they can accurately judge when it will be ready. If something needs changing during the development should they correct it (and be criticised for the delay) or ignore it to meet the schedule (and be criticised for releasing a model with errors)? Then in the rare cases development goes quicker than expected should they hold it back until the scheduled date or release immediately???
Even when the final product is made and loaded on to the slow boat from China, they can't give an exact delivery date. they will have a 6-8 day window during which it will arrive at the UK port, then it could be anywhere between 2 days and 2 weeks before Customs allow them to move container off the dock...
Giving exact timetables in advance is not practical, and I don't think even desirable - I'd rather give some flexibility to get things right than flawed products be rushed to meet schedules. The only thing that could've improved is communication of what stage of development products are at. This is one of the things DJ promised to do better through a timeline on his website but even that could be improved on. certainly for the n gauge models that still takes some digging through multiple entries with little clear order.
Finally, as for different versions of the same model, if your favoured manufacturer is first to market, then it is "unnecessary duplication", if your favoured manufacturer is second, then it is "healthy competition"!!! :hmmm:
Quote from: acko22 on January 19, 2015, 10:49:48 PM
Scotty,
I know timings slip but when say Dapol on there product development page say due 3rd quarter 2015 it is reasonable to expect it then but they announce an guestimate and let shops start to take pre orders then that's unfair on the shop and the modeller.
Would it not be better just to say in product development and then announcements in the news section to say this is how far we have got?
Then you are not getting hopes up or making people wait or orders that can come in months even possibly years later and potentially tying up people modelling fun which could go on another model?
To be fair I wasn't commenting on the fairness.
I was just pointing out that they don't technically make promises......
In 1963 the Yanks said they would have a man on the moon by 1970, and beat the deadline by
a year so I don't buy the toy trains on a slow boat from China stuff .Perhaps the Chinese
factories give priority to bigger customers knowing that the relatively small UK N gauge market
can either put up with a long delay or whistle Dixie.
PLD,
I know what you are saying and I couldn't agree more that they cannot give an exact date due to x factors.
But if they are willing to go to press and say that's when it is going to be available (3rd quarter 2015 lets say) then isn't it fair to say it's a commitment?
If they cannot be firm and be 100% sure that the can achieve that commitment shouldn't they hold off giving a time frame and prematurely raising hopes?
Quote from: acko22 on January 19, 2015, 11:22:11 PM
PLD,
I know what you are saying and I couldn't agree more that they cannot give an exact date due to x factors.
But if they are willing to go to press and say that's when it is going to be available (3rd quarter 2015 lets say) then isn't it fair to say it's a commitment?
If they cannot be firm and be 100% sure that the can achieve that commitment shouldn't they hold off giving a time frame and prematurely raising hopes?
Has any manufacturer ever said "we guarantee it will arrive in quarter X"?? I think not... Timetables given are only an estimate based on best interpretation of available information, and are never claimed to be anything else... If a retailer puts a different spin on it or the consumer interprets the information differently, is that really the fault of the manufacturer?
PLD
I am trying to think of the word but cant think of it so example will have to do.
Well all know Yodel and the dramas that have been faced with them.
So they say they will deliver on Thursday say you spend all day waiting and it doesn't come then they tell you Friday again it doesn't come, lets face it you would be rather annoyed to say the least.
You order something else and it happens again, you will be on the phone to them telling them they are taking the proverbial :censored:
They have told you it will be there then they haven't promised you an exact time from the tracking info just it will be there within that time frame, now if there was a delay the parcel missed the lorry from a to b and it wouldn't be coming on Thursday you wouldn't expect them to be saying still arriving Thursday because it isn't from the tracking info.
I never said any manufacturer has promised a thing but if they say out in x quarter and that slips well yeah it happens but don't leave it up there till the time passes, the second they know let us know.
Right now on the Dapol website it says the JNA Falcons anticipated release Nov-14, that's 2 months ago is it hard to say it's slipped to February? well all know then and we are not waiting and looking for something that isn't there yet?
Quote from: austinbob on January 19, 2015, 10:20:44 PM
The manufacturers of N gauge products are there to provide us with a service i.e. Product delivered to the required quality within promised timescales. That is no different to any other product on the planet. Why should N gauge be different?
No, the manufacturers are there to make a profit. If they didn't they wuoldn't be in a business. Even people like Dave Jones who have a real love of the hobby still have to consider their bottom line.
Now keeping customers happy is normally good business sense but I think you are making a mistake that an announcement implies some sort of promise. It is simply letting people know that product X is in development so that customers can save up and competitors can avoid it if they wish to avoid duplication.
To give you an idea of the problems duplication can cause, take a look at what is happening in 00 where 2 manufacturers have announced an all-new GWR King and 3 are producing an Adams Radial tank. My guess is that at least one manufacturer is going to end up disappointed by the returns on that particular project while we customers will be left wondering what might have been produced instead if one or manufacturers had announced earlier and the others had chosen a different prototype to model instead.
Quote from: austinbob on January 19, 2015, 10:20:44 PM
Product which turns up eventually is not acceptable
Why?
What are the consequences (beyond annoyance) of a delayed delivery? This is a hobby consisting of perhaps 10,000 people in the UK. Nothing vital depends on a model being released on the announced date. If the delays are that annoying, consider modelling a different prototype for which the models required are already released.
To take a few examples. The Farish Ivatt 2-6-0 was delayed because it took Farish longer than they expected to develop a coreless motor small enough to effective power such a small loco. What would you have had them do? Rush a dimensionally compromised model that was stretched to fit an existing motor in? Peco did that with the 2251 (oversized tender) and the market was not kind to them. The model is no longer in production and Peco have said they are not planning any new locos.
Rushing a project to meet some arbitary deadline is worse than being late if it results in a product that people do not want to buy.
Dapol have delayed a couple of locos such as the class 33 because they were not satisfied with the quality of the work done and sent it back to the drawing board. Would you rather they had gone ahead and produced a model that has mistakes? Take a look at the review threads and you will see that we modelers are a fairly discerning bunch and there are people who can and will flag up errors in released models.
You are asking for models to be 100% accurate and 100% on time. So how do you propose manufacturers react when they discover mistakes when work is in progress? You cannot have it both ways. Personally I would rather they take the time and get models right.
This is as annoying to me as anyone. I have had a Farish Castle, 64xx, Autocoach and hawkswoth coaches on pre-order for over 18 months and I would rather like to see them too. But I would rather they get them right than rush out a compromise to meet an arbitary deadline.
With regard to the Dapol Falcons, it is a case of the website not being attended to as much as they or we would like, but it's a fair point.
However, while I would like evreything to be perfect everytime out of the box, I appreciate it's not always possible. I think if you expect everything to be 100%, 100% of the time, you're not only in the wrong gauge, you're in the wrong hobby. I am in the situation that if I receive something and it's not right, I send it back for replacement. I've never had a problem getting a replacement or a refund. On top of that, according to the figures that someone in the know has posted on another thread, the failure rate of our models is pretty low. Out of 20-30 model engines that I have, I have had to send two back. They were both Dapol A4s from the same batch, I believe it was a quartering issue. Two Farish Diesel's have needed split gears replaced. Other than that (touch wood) everything else is fine.
The complete batch of Farish A2s were sent back to China because of some sort of error. I applaud Farish for having the minerals and integrity to do that rather than just release them anyway. Im sure they have taken a big hit financially on that, so fair play. The let's get it as right as we can attitude goes down well weith me certainly. Should they have caught the error before now? I don't know, depends what the problem was, but n gauge model railways arent any different from most other manufactured goods, nothing gives 100%, 100% of the time.
I think most of us are aware of the N-Gauge manufacturing issues enough to know by now, that any "due date" should be taken with a pinch of salt, but I think the manufacturers genuinly try their best.
As for being on a leash, we're not. It's a little model train set, it's not life or death, it's not essential, and we're not forced to order or buy these things.
Quote from: acko22 on January 20, 2015, 12:40:31 AM
I am trying to think of the word but cant think of it so example will have to do.
Well all know Yodel and the dramas that have been faced with them.
Oh please ... ... that's
hardly a fair comparison now, is it !!!
On the one hand, you have a design house / marketer (let's not pretend they are a manufacturer of trains, eh ?) who contract out the designs to a 3rd party, contract out the tooling to a 3rd party, and contract out the production to a 3rd party (albeit likely all the same 3rd party - but it doesn't have to be). Oh, and the delivery back to them here in the UK is another 3rd-party as well ...
On the other, you have a delivery company that collects items from a supplier, drops off in one distribution point that may forward to another, and then sends out in a van.
The former example has a "project plan" for a deliverable anywhere between 12 months and 3 years (sometimes longer) that is dependant on their contracts with the 3rd-parties succeeding in the timescales they are given; the latter example one for (allegedly) several days that is dependant on not much ...
Apples & coal ... at least apples & oranges are both fruit :D
Mike
Quote from: ScottyStitch on January 20, 2015, 09:37:21 AM
As for being on a leash, we're not. It's a little model train set, it's not life or death, it's not essential, and we're not forced to order or buy these things.
The voice of reason...!
Quote from: MikeDunn on January 20, 2015, 09:58:18 AM
Quote from: acko22 on January 20, 2015, 12:40:31 AM
I am trying to think of the word but cant think of it so example will have to do.
Well all know Yodel and the dramas that have been faced with them.
Oh please ... ... that's hardly a fair comparison now, is it !!!
On the one hand, you have a design house / marketer (let's not pretend they are a manufacturer of trains, eh ?) who contract out the designs to a 3rd party, contract out the tooling to a 3rd party, and contract out the production to a 3rd party (albeit likely all the same 3rd party - but it doesn't have to be). Oh, and the delivery back to them here in the UK is another 3rd-party as well ...
On the other, you have a delivery company that collects items from a supplier, drops off in one distribution point that may forward to another, and then sends out in a van.
The former example has a "project plan" for a deliverable anywhere between 12 months and 3 years (sometimes longer) that is dependant on their contracts with the 3rd-parties succeeding in the timescales they are given; the latter example one for (allegedly) several days that is dependant on not much ...
Apples & coal ... at least apples & oranges are both fruit :D
Mike
On top of that, there is the problem that there isn't too much choice in which 3rd parties you contract to provide this work for you. So it's either continue trying to deliver inspite of the 3rd party problems, or give up altogether and stop trying to produce anything at all. Which would we prefer?
I suppose there
might be a way to guarantee 100%, 100% of thetime and 100% on schedule, but the cost would be so prohibitive it would start another thread all of it's own......if there was an n-guage market left, that is.
Quote from: austinbob on January 19, 2015, 10:24:34 PM
I must admit that the main advantage of delays to release of products is the boost to my bank balance in the short term!!
:beers:
I don't need a 'short term boost to my bank balance', as any 'excess' will no doubt be redirected to SWMBOs current project(s) around the house!!
Quote from: Agrippa on January 20, 2015, 10:58:57 AM
Quote from: ScottyStitch on January 20, 2015, 09:37:21 AM
As for being on a leash, we're not. It's a little model train set, it's not life or death, it's not essential, and we're not forced to order or buy these things.
The voice of reason...!
Fair point, we are not forced. And we are not forced to buy other things we want which get delayed. Or order the things which we wait in for and don't come when the courier states, or choose the potential builder who then does not come to estimate when he says. It is still poor service, and exasperating, even if not time wasting. To draw from the late management guru, Peter Drucker, a business exists to serve its customers, not the other way round.
My own take is that if a manufacturer is going to announce a new item, and they want to do so early in the total process, they should announce they are starting work, but not give an indication of dates unless on balance of normal probabilities there is reasonable reason to expect to meet that schedule. Then as development progresses they can report where they are, and start to give expected dates at a later point. At least this increasingly seems to be happening - sometimes. I note reports from Farish on livery samples for the Spam Can and SR Mogul.
I never saw anything on the Farish website to indicate they were struggling to develop a small enough motor etc for the Ivatt. Common sense says this was likely to be an issue. Neither have I seen on their public website that the A2 batch has had to go back, and why. I am glad they are sending them back, but for goodness sake, having publicly given dates to customers, tell the customers equally publicly what is now happening. Don't just change the dates. Neither did I see any such advice about early issues on the fine new Duchess - as with my Ivatt I am delighted with mine.
The fact of a variety of 3rd parties clearly adds complexity and risk to the process. Hopefully the risks of this were fully evaluated when considering the business model our manufacturers chose to adopt. If they did not, then they have only themselves to blame. This is true of any process, whether in private or public sector.
I agree a forecast release date is not a contractual obligation and it will slip sometimes - though if they are learning from experience this should reduce as new models continue to come out. But having given dates, there is a moral obligation to at least explain delays, and if need be suspend forecasts if the issues and reasons are big. A business will cease to be profitable if it loses the confidence of its customers. While we may reasonably moan about delays, manufacturers should be confident in providing good reasons. For my part I will continue to buy what I want when it comes out. But when a new release is delayed, I want to learn about it from a confident manufacturer's own public site, not through the rumour mill.
Well I'm sorry, but Mr Drucker is wrong. A business exists to make money. That quite literally is the bottom line.
Regardless of that, how can we say that they are not serving the customer. They produce an item that you want to buy so they are without doubt providing you with a service. Whether it is on time, or not is surely irrelevant to that point?
Now, the fact that they are poor communicators in the event of delays, errors, etc is an entirely different issue. There are two issues:
1 - Announcing a due date and not being able to stick to it is one.
2 - Not telling us that they can't stick to it nor why is another.
Trust me, I understand the frustrations of waiting for product to come to market, and not just in Model Railways. I, like you, would like them to announce a product, only when it has been checked and is on a (fast) boat from China, but for whatever commercial reasons they won't or can't do that. So we either suck it up and live with it, or vote with our feet and refuse to play ball!
Someone earlier said this:
Product which turns up eventually is not acceptable
Product which does not work out of the box is not acceptable
But that's just not true. If it was unacceptable you wouldn't be playing ball and continuing to buy the stuff. If it was unacceptable you wouldn't buy anything from these manufacturers. But clearly we all do (save our contenintal, US, et al, bretheren)
Finally, why do you want to know why it's delayed? What difference does it make to you? It doesn't change the delay period at all. Why do we have the right to know? It could be commercially sensitive information for all we know. It doesn't matter. It's delayed, that's all we need to know.
I don't think it is poor service. It could be better, no-one's arguing about that, but it could be a hell of a lot worse.
I say again, it's a train set.
To sum up a business exists to make money, that's self evident , otherwise investors
would put their money in government bonds etc. However without products which are
what the public wants they will suffer , eg British Leyland, Marks and Sparks etc.
With the relatively small market for UK N gauge and small number of producers the
customers have to bide their time as there is little they can do other than switch to US,
Jap and European models.
Annoying when a new model is announced and it takes ages before it's on sale , as ScottyStitch
points out the reason for the delay is irrelevant like a delayed flight or train journey,you just have to
put up with it.
I wish that more of you had been in N in the early 70`s as I was.You wouldn`t be complaining about long lead times etc for your new locos `cos there basically were virtually no new locos to wait for!
Quote from: ScottyStitch on January 19, 2015, 10:33:39 PM
To be fair, I think the manufacturers could and would argue that they don't promise a time scale. They give a rough date when an item is expected........When they launch the product, there's no reason to believe that they are being deceitful about that date, but it certainly isn't a promise.
ScottyStitch
I'm not actually asking for a promise of delivery I am looking for a rough timescale if that's all they can give. The trouble is that even the 'rough timescales' often turn out to be hopelessly inaccurate. Now everyone knows that problems do occur with production schedules but don't you think it would be a good idea for the manufacturers to let people/retailers know there is a problem and give a revised date. When I spoke to Hattons, Dapol and Farish had given them no idea when advertised preorderable items would be available for most of the items.
There is also a problem, I think, when they announce a product and advertise it in their catalogues without any indication as to when the product will be available.
I quite often get junk mail through the post with catalogues for cars, furniture, just about anything. I cannot conceivably believe that most of those products would be advertised if they were not available (unless perhaps they had run out of stock).
I know this rant is not gonna change anything and its not a life threatening issue. But, as I said in my original post title this is a very frustrating issue.
Quote from: mokjumbo on January 20, 2015, 05:59:18 PM
I wish that more of you had been in N in the early 70`s as I was.You wouldn`t be complaining about long lead times etc for your new locos `cos there basically were virtually no new locos to wait for!
That's not the issue though. The issue is that new products are announced but don't appear on the shelves anytime soon! :beers:
Gents,
I just want to try an clarify what I was trying to say earlier.
I agree with bob totally, while I agree that yes things timings slip for one of a million reasons may that be an issue with the CAD design all the way to the extreme where the cargo ship sheds it load all over the south cost.
While no manufactures do not promise it will be out at x date with out a doubt. They do give an approximate date and with a number of projects which have ran large amounts of time past that date, then of course people are going to ask questions and get annoyed.
There has been a numbers of projects that have ran over recently some by a little some by a lot, while the little amount is in no way an issue as I say timings slip some of these delays are counter productive to the community may that be right from the modeller who has been waiting for that model, the shop who have pre orders who in keeping with their price promise see little or o profit all the way to the maker who may loss orders as the modeller has got fed up waiting and gone with something else.
The question that I take from all this is;
Are the manufactures trying to spread the work done too thinly over too many projects and in need of scaling back to give more effort to the lesser number of projects ensuring the announcement to production and sale is kept to a minimum and the ability to absorb some of the issues is there?
I like everyone else on here would be very happy to get my hands on the latest offering. However, I agree entirely with the original post, I am quite frustrated the fact they announce expected delivery dates -yet they slip so very badly.
It is however such a reality with production times etc. Folk will still order, if you don't like the terms then don't bother. They're supplying the product to you, not you demanding it on a competitive market.
On the other hand, I do believe the likes of Farish and Dapol can do more to commit to delivery times, they should not announce something until they think they can deliver.
I have to say after many years of back-orders across a whole heap of things, paying up-front or committing payment details etc, then arguing afterwards on non or late delivery, I just don't order anything which is out of stock or pre-order these days unless it's an ABSOLUTE necessity, which almost nothing is. It's certainly made my life allot easier, if I miss-out I miss-out, if it comes out a few £ dearer in 12 months time rather than commiting money I don't have now then so be it. I have no CC's these days, only buy what you can afford now, don't wait on promises. It's quite refreshing to live that way and the difference in reality is minimal apart from spending any time chasing orders and things which may never come.
Quote from: RST on January 20, 2015, 09:31:52 PM
On the other hand, I do believe the likes of Farish and Dapol can do more to commit to delivery times, they should not announce something until they think they can deliver.
I have to say after many years of back-orders across a whole heap of things, paying up-front or committing payment details etc, then arguing afterwards on non or late delivery, I just don't order anything which is out of stock or pre-order these days unless it's an ABSOLUTE necessity, which almost nothing is. It's certainly made my life allot easier, if I miss-out I miss-out, if it comes out a few £ dearer in 12 months time rather than commiting money I don't have now then so be it. I have no CC's these days, only buy what you can afford now, don't wait on promises. It's quite refreshing to live that way and the difference in reality is minimal apart from spending any time chasing orders and things which may never come.
That's a pretty good philosophy. Maybe I should cancel all my preorders and just buy what's available at the time I see something I need. (no - not need!! want?) - Don't think I could live without my Credit Card though - delays payment for a month or more and I always pay off in full each month - god I'm so virtuous!!
:beers:
Quote from: austinbob on January 20, 2015, 06:05:08 PM
I am looking for a rough timescale if that's all they can give. The trouble is that even the 'rough timescales' often turn out to be hopelessly inaccurate.
Er - no.
Their estimate, based on that their suppliers say & them adding a 'fudge factor'
is accurate within an order of magnitude ... It's just that people are
not, in this day & age, willing to wait more than a
few months for something that can take a few years (or longer, in the case of awkward products) to sort out ... ...
Nothing stops
any of the complainers getting hold of the plans etc, grabbing a 3D program, and doing their own ... ...
Quote from: RST on January 20, 2015, 09:31:52 PM
On the other hand, I do believe the likes of Farish and Dapol can do more to commit to delivery times, they should not announce something until they think they can deliver.
And that stops
several companies getting a fair way down the path, spending
lots of money for little return, in what way ?
I buy when the need demands me ... (or SWMBO ::) She's now decided she wants a Class 91 set in GNER OO scale ... right when no-one has it ::)) ... Do I (or SWMBO ::) miss out sometimes ? Yes. Do I pay more than I should have sometimes ? Yes. Do I get a bargain sometimes ? Yes.
It's just a toy, guys ... The oil price won't collapse because Dapol didn't deliver your desired toy this week, but instead have a 6 month delay ... The stock market won't crash & burn because Bachmann's parent company decided to run a 250,000-item run that pays them a lot more profit this month, and pushed a GraFar loco back 3 months ...
No, you don't get your instant gratification ... but it's just a toy ...
Quote from: RST on January 20, 2015, 09:31:52 PM
I have no CC's these days, only buy what you can afford now, don't wait on promises.
:offtopicsign:
You do realise that doing this impacts your credit rating, which underpins many things ? I don't agree with them myself, but hold a couple just so that the rating stays healthy ...
Quote from: MikeDunn on January 20, 2015, 09:44:02 PM
You do realise that doing this impacts your credit rating, which underpins many things ? I don't agree with them myself, but hold a couple just so that the rating stays healthy ...
Well that came from nowhere Mike. Yes I'm aware that could be an issue but I have had multiple credit cards in the past, mortgages, loans etc. and my credit rating is immaculate. Oh and if you have multiple credit cards and can't pay them off that has an effect on your credit rating as well I believe!!
???
I have pre-ordered a few things, and not paid a penny until it has shipped, so how does that tie up my capital.????
Quote from: ScottyStitch on January 20, 2015, 09:53:11 PM
I have pre-ordered a few things, and not paid a penny until it has shipped, so how does that tie up my capital.????
Yes - for me that's right ScottyStitch. I have only ever preordered from Hattons and they always give you the opportunity to back out before they ship. (not that I've ever got to that stage with any preorders!! hence the origin of this post!). So for me that's not so much of an issue. I just want to be kept informed about when I'm gonna get my new toys please.
:help:
Agrippa actually validates the subtly nuanced point Drucker was making some 60 yrs ago. If you do not meet the expectations of your customers, profits start to fall (M&S) and the business, in extremis, may fail (BL). You identify and evaluate your market, and how you can service it, first. That is what produces the profits which a business needs to survive and maybe grow. Customers are needed before you make profits.
He also draw attention to the fact that given the UK N Gauge market is small, we do not have the discipline of strong competition. We have a near duopoly. That puts and even greater obligation on manufacturers to act responsibly, treat their customers with proper courtesy and respect. And that includes producing quality products (OK not a problem for me but seems to be for at least some). Also if you publish timescales, then that same courtesy demands you report back on them.
If, like me, we want to carry on with UK modelling and not change to European, American etc, or revert to OO, we have virtually no choice but to continue to buy what comes out when it comes out. But it does not follow from that we should blindly accept all that is thrown at us without challenge. Any more than we blindly accept train/plane delays without putting in for any compensation to which we are entitled or complaining when such delays are normal occurrence (The Thameslink route for example)
The fact that I may not be able to change anything, and may buy anyway - though I have once cancelled an order and changed plans - is not relevant. As the customers we have the right to know simply because we are customers, the manufacturer's life blood, and should be treated as such; with basic courtesy. If they have placed plans and dates in the public domain, such information is no longer commercial in confidence. So tell us and if we are given a simple reason, such as the quality of the first delivery of A2s was poor, or the ship sunk, then while we may well moan a bit, I suspect most of us will trust manufacturers far more.
While there may be risks of developing a culture of complaining, at least the balance between customers and suppliers has become less one sided, in recent years.
Quote from: austinbob on January 20, 2015, 09:59:45 PM
Quote from: ScottyStitch on January 20, 2015, 09:53:11 PM
I have pre-ordered a few things, and not paid a penny until it has shipped, so how does that tie up my capital.????
Yes - for me that's right ScottyStitch. I have only ever preordered from Hattons and they always give you the opportunity to back out before they ship. (not that I've ever got to that stage with any preorders!! hence the origin of this post!). So for me that's not so much of an issue. I just want to be kept informed about when I'm gonna get my new toys please.
:help:
Indeed Bob. And the A2, for which we now know a good reason for the delay, albeit not from Farish themselves, is my only outstanding pre order. Hattons have delivered on the rest. Your wish is totally reasonable.
QuoteThat's a pretty good philosophy. Maybe I should cancel all my preorders and just buy what's available at the time I see something I need. (no - not need!! want?) - Don't think I could live without my Credit Card though - delays payment for a month or more and I always pay off in full each month - god I'm so virtuous!!
...well I'm only without cc's while I'm out of work. But the whole concept of them personally is BUNK. If you can't afford, you don't buy. If you can afford to buy then you don't need the card.
QuoteYou do realise that doing this impacts your credit rating, which underpins many things ? I don't agree with them myself, but hold a couple just so that the rating stays healthy ...
...yes thanks, plan is in hand and no impact, but I believe 100% that a CC is useless if you pay it off every day. Just buy what you can afford e.g. no more headaches.
I have two lines of thought on this subject.
1. I cannot remember the last time that a catalogue by BachFar had predicted dates in-when I worked in the trade updates came by way of the rep and the collectors club mag. Even then they would only predict a date normally once it was in the factory or on the slow boat. Dapol on the other hand had Dave Jones interacting alot on the internet-fair play to him, and this would lead to a slow drip of information. Perhaps Dapols now comparative silence is unsettling??
2. This is a hobby, I am happy to wait. If everything came all at once it would be extremely boring, and I would be incredibly short of cash (!). As far as I am concerned a catalogue is merely a 'this is what we offer for purchase/intend to offer for purchase' and if a retailer chooses to take pre-orders then that is their choice. Given that we don't need any of these products this is the way the industry will work. I have just tied up capital in a Pendolino and given that I can't hope to make one I will happily wait for the fateful day that the Postie comes to the door with it whether that is March next year or March the following year-as long as it is delivered and it is a quality model. In the meantime I will enjoy what I have and purchase models to fill other gaps in my collection.
No doubt some competition would cause the somewhat sleepy way the industry works to change-if so great, if not I will carry on enjoying the hobby regardless. My job drives me up the wall enough to let my hobbies go in the same direction. :no:
:wave:
Quote from: Portpatrick on January 20, 2015, 10:56:25 PM
Agrippa actually validates the subtly nuanced point Drucker was making some 60 yrs ago. If you do not meet the expectations of your customers, profits start to fall (M&S) and the business, in extremis, may fail (BL). You identify and evaluate your market, and how you can service it, first. That is what produces the profits which a business needs to survive and maybe grow. Customers are needed before you make profits.
He also draw attention to the fact that given the UK N Gauge market is small, we do not have the discipline of strong competition. We have a near duopoly. That puts and even greater obligation on manufacturers to act responsibly, treat their customers with proper courtesy and respect. And that includes producing quality products (OK not a problem for me but seems to be for at least some). Also if you publish timescales, then that same courtesy demands you report back on them.
If, like me, we want to carry on with UK modelling and not change to European, American etc, or revert to OO, we have virtually no choice but to continue to buy what comes out when it comes out. But it does not follow from that we should blindly accept all that is thrown at us without challenge. Any more than we blindly accept train/plane delays without putting in for any compensation to which we are entitled or complaining when such delays are normal occurrence (The Thameslink route for example)
The fact that I may not be able to change anything, and may buy anyway - though I have once cancelled an order and changed plans - is not relevant. As the customers we have the right to know simply because we are customers, the manufacturer's life blood, and should be treated as such; with basic courtesy. If they have placed plans and dates in the public domain, such information is no longer commercial in confidence. So tell us and if we are given a simple reason, such as the quality of the first delivery of A2s was poor, or the ship sunk, then while we may well moan a bit, I suspect most of us will trust manufacturers far more.
While there may be risks of developing a culture of complaining, at least the balance between customers and suppliers has become less one sided, in recent years.
Loud cheering, merryment and jollity - what a brilliant reply. This reflects my feelings almost exactly. :thankyousign:
Sorry, but I still think he's wrong. The original statement was something along the line sof "a business exists to serve it's customers". No, a business exists to make money. End of. If it stops making money, it won't be a business for very long, no matter how well they serve their customers.
It makes money by providing some kind of service, granted, but the primary reason for anyone running a business is to make money. I'm desparately trying to think of a commercial business that has serving it's customers over making money as a priority?
Again, the original poster stated that late product was unacceptable. Maybe we're in the realms of symantics now, but if it's unacceptable to the OP, then he wouldn't be buying it.
Either way, it's obvious we are going round and round in circles, and we'll just have to agree to disagree.
Quote from: ScottyStitch on January 21, 2015, 09:27:16 AM
and we'll just have to agree to disagree.
I'm sorry, but I just
have to disagree about that !!! :veryangry: :veryangry: :veryangry:
:P
Quote from: ScottyStitch on January 21, 2015, 09:27:16 AM
Again, the original poster stated that late product was unacceptable. Maybe we're in the realms of symantics now, but if it's unacceptable to the OP, then he wouldn't be buying it.
Either way, it's obvious we are going round and round in circles, and we'll just have to agree to disagree.
He/we buy it because we want it and there is usually no other means of sourcing it. Such is the balance of power in the market. But it does not follow that continual delays , without notification in similar ways to original announcements, are or should be acceptable to us. Nor does it follow that if we find such things unacceptable we should shut up and accept such treatment meekly.
However as you say we must agree to differ. Perhaps like you, I bow out.
Quote from: ScottyStitch on January 21, 2015, 09:27:16 AM
No, a business exists to make money. End of. If it stops making money, it won't be a business for very
long, no matter how well they serve their customers.
It makes money by providing some kind of service, granted, but the primary reason for anyone running a business is to make money.
I think what you have said is just so wrong ScottyStitch. Lets turn your words round a little bit.
"A business exists to make money by providing its customers with a required product fit for purpose and to promised delivery dates."
No happy customers - no business - no money. So the focus has to be satisfied customers in order for a business to make money. >:(
I think all has been said on this topic, but no doubt someone will get the last word in.
Simple solution , buy Union Mills stuff, can be ordered and delivered
within a day, comes on the boat from IoM !
Quote from: Agrippa on January 21, 2015, 10:20:52 AM
I think all has been said on this topic, but no doubt someone will get the last word in.
You're right Agrippa :wave: - bye for now on this topic.
There is no right answer - some people are incensed by delays and unavailability of items, others just accept it as a part of life. No point arguing over what is essentially a difference of opinion :no:
Paul
Quote from: austinbob on January 21, 2015, 10:12:19 AM
I think what you have said is just so wrong ScottyStitch. Lets turn your words round a little bit.
"A business exists to make money by providing its customers with a required product fit for purpose and to promised delivery dates."
No happy customers - no business - no money. So the focus has to be satisfied customers in order for a business to make money. >:(
Okay Bob, I'll bite.
Although, it actually sounds like you agree with me to be fair.
If I gave you 2000 Farish locomotives at half the going rate, what would be your
primary concern? Well it would be to either give them away at cost or for free (very philanthopic but hardly the definition of a commecrial business) or to try and make at least a little mark up, wouldn't it? so you're primary reason for taking the items would be to make some money
not to provide a service to your fellow modellers. Servicing (pardon the phrase) yourmodellers would be a necessary mechanism for making that mark up. If you could make money without having to provide anything, I think you know we all would!!! Now, to paraphrase your final point,
if not enough happy customers, then the likelihood of no repeat business, so you'd have to do enough, service-wise, to satisfy the vast majority of your customers. In the past the business world would call that the Cost of Performing v the Cost of Not Performing. So it is likely that Farish, Dapol, et al, have actually assessed that the cost of taking back returns and doing repairs, is more economical than trying to get 100%, 100% of the time 100% on time.
I think the vast majority of Farish and Dapol customers are happy enough, or they wouldnt be in business still.
By all means give the manufactures feedback, or complain, but doing it here, well that's not going to do much is it, so write a nicely worded and constructive letter to them instead. If enough unsatisfied customers were to do that, then maybe then you can get things changed to your satisfaction. And if it's
thatimportant, complain, and don't buy, because otherwise you're just feeding the system that you're finding so unacceptable. No? If you bought a cream cake and found it unacceptable, would you keep going back and buying that same cream cake from the same bakers, all the while complaining it was sub-standard?......
Oh, and there's that word again "promised".
I'll let you have the last word.
Happy modelling, and I sincerely hope you eventually get all the models you wish for.
Scotty
Peace ScottyStitch. Lets get back to playing trains. :NGF:
Quote from: austinbob on January 21, 2015, 11:13:34 AM
Peace ScottyStitch. Lets get back to playing trains. :NGF:
Absolutely mate, no hard feelings at all! :NGF:
Maybe one of the Mods can have the final word by locking this roundy roundy thread :hmmm:
Quote from: newportnobby on January 21, 2015, 11:40:51 AM
Maybe one of the Mods can have the final word by locking this roundy roundy thread :hmmm:
Not sure there's any need Mick, I think we've all had our say and parted as fellow NGFers :beers: