Are we over the Golden Age of N Gauge?

[davidinyork]

ScaleTrains does this in the states. They have an "Operator" line and a "Rivet Counter" line, with the latter being a bit more costly than the former. The Operator line is for those who want to detail the engines themselves or don't want to spend as much money. Their ES44s in N scale are still about $40-50 more than other DCC Ready locomotives by other manufacturers, which is one of the reasons I only have one ST locomotive (bought at a closing hobby shop for $75).

Hornby do it to an extent, with their cheaper 'Railroad' range - some of which are new models, but a lot of them are older models (ex-Lima in many cases) with some updating. Presumably they see the 'trainset' and the 'modeller' market as distinct enough in OO Gauge that they can do this (although of course using old models avoids tooling costs).

An example is the HST. They've ditched their own original tooling, but around the same time as their new high-spec HST power cars first appeared, they also released a set in the Railroad range using the ex-Lima tooling (it's quite a good model for its age). They've not released any more Railroad HSTs for a number of years, but in their upcoming list for this year there are two more - one just the power cars, and one as part of a set.

With N gauge, I very much doubt if the market would be big enough to make this sort of thing viable - hence when a manufacturer releases a new-tooling model, any previous model (by that or another manufacturer) isn't likely to be produced again. Hence there have been no Farish HSTs since the Dapol ones were released, and most probably there won't be in future either.

[davidinyork]

Hornby do it too with Railroad, often recycling older tooling. British N categorically isn't a big enough market though to sustain two different ranges. I think people over estimate how price sensitive the market is. With Hornby the difference is greater too, many of the "full fat" models are £150+. We're not seeing that in N yet.

You clicked post just before me! We've made pretty much the same point.

OO Gauge models have gone up a lot over the past decade. The current-tooling Hornby HST power cars could be picked up for around a hundred to 120 quid a pair when the tooling was first used around a decade ago. These days they are upward of £250, and if you want a set there is also the cost of the Mk3s (which haven't gone up in price a lot, but are still the old toolings, a couple of which have Lima origins). I don't think N gauge has seen this sort of percentage increase over the same period.

[PLD]

That means unless you can double the size of the market, the low spec model will probably cost MORE than the current price of the current single-spec model... ... ... are you willing to pay more to get a poorer-spec model?

ScaleTrains does this in the states. They have an "Operator" line and a "Rivet Counter" line,
... ... Their ES44s in N scale are still about $40-50 more than other DCC Ready locomotives by other manufacturers

Case proven perhaps?? Even with the greater size of the US market, to split the market in to high and Low spec models seemingly means higher cost for both...

[Ben A]

Hi all,

I am seeing a longer game here.

When I started in N (late 1990s) the choice for British modellers was Farish or CJM.

The Farish models were basic with one piece bodyshells that often bore only a passing resemblance to the prototype, one-size-fits-all chassis with no flywheels, no working lights, no interchangeable couplers, limited range.

CJM models were far more accurate, with photo etched details, a robust Kato-derived chassis and superb bespoke paint finish, but at a price.  And still no lights.

Modellers in larger scales would disparagingly refer to the N products of that time as "cake decorations."

Little wonder that 00 dominated.

Now the latest models have sound options, NEM couplers, flywheels, an array of switchable lights, photo-etched or wire details and are pretty much as accurate as their larger cousins.

And what I am hearing is that for many people N is a viable alternative to 00.  Many still choose 00 of course, but N is growing, albeit slowly as habits die hard and there have been significant improvements to 00 too in the intervening years.

However, in another 20 years I see no reason why there should not be parity, if N continues to advance.  Then the consequent higher sales would allow for price reductions and possibly even the diversification into "basic" and "elite" (or whatever you want to call it) ranges.

We are just not there yet.

Cheers

Ben A.

[Bealman]

I have always said that it's the 00 models that look like plastic toys compared to N, and that was back in the early nineties.

N of course, dominates in the land of Kato, because of space restraints.

I am personally very happy with developments in N. The Revolution B Tank's were awesome, and I'm thinking about asking for a Farish birdcage set for me birthday.

Oh, and I've got a Hunslet ordered.

[railsquid]

N of course, dominates in the land of Kato, because of space restraints.

Here in the land of Kato, Tomix et al there are no manufacturers who go to the trouble of producing "basic" and "advanced" versions of the same model. The market is big enough to support multiple manufacturers producing their own versions of a particular prototype, but all are iteratively improving their products, and the diversity is in variations of the prototype rather than substantially different quality levels/price points.

The slight exceptions are Kato, who still produce a limited number of very basic models using old tooling aimed at the novice market, and a couple of very high-end manufacturers like Tenshodo, who produce some very nice but expensive kettles (where equivalent models may be available at a lower price point from say Kato, but it's quite likely Kato will be upgrading their own models, so those will be cheaper, but not cheap).

Arguably, if you want "basic" models at a reduced price, the second-hand market is the place to go, though obviously that doesn't work for models which have never been produced before.

[Newportnobby]

The 'time of life' element has to have a bearing on the popularity of N as well.
For instance (and these are only broad brush stroke examples), youngsters first step on the property ladder may be a flat/small terraced house. Next step - family. This may require a 3 bed semi and maybe even an advance to a 4 bed detached. Family then flies nest and couple rattle around so maybe a railway room is granted by 'the authorities'. Sheer economics kicks in and the couple downsize with a view to retirement. Railway room becomes smaller and maybe even banished to outbuilding. This is where the decision to go for N gauge to get the most for the small space really carries the the most argument. As stated in the latest NGS Journal it is recognised most railway modellers are in a later age group as, providing all has gone well, they have some spare space and some spare money (and the other half knows where you are!)
How much spare money is available tends to decree the price of stock which can be afforded. Time was I'd spend whatever it took to have what I wanted from the range available. I'm happy to pay current prices for the lovely looking models we get but my volume of purchases has been at least halved. Now if only QC was better so split gears and duff lights were a thing of the past

[njee20]

Not sure I get that. If you're "banished to an outbuilding", ie you have a garage to build a layout in then you've probably got a decent space to use!

I think where space is likely to push people towards N is earlier when people are having to build a portable layout that fits under the spare bed in a modern house with a spare bedroom that's 5'x7'.

[dannyboy]

The above comments by @Newportnobby  are, by and large, very true and I think, would apply to a lot of modellers. Like Mick, although I have only been into n gauge for the last 5 years or so, I was in the fortunate position ( ) of being able to spend what it took to get what I wanted. I now have, if I am being honest, more than I need, but now that I am fully retired, I find that I am buying a very small percentage of what I was buying say two years ago. I now only buy something that is rare (ish) or unusual. Whether we are over, or reached, the golden age is, in my opinion, just conjecture.

[Snowwolflair]

Not sure I get that. If you're "banished to an outbuilding", ie you have a garage to build a layout in then you've probably got a decent space to use!

I think where space is likely to push people towards N is earlier when people are having to build a portable layout that fits under the spare bed in a modern house with a spare bedroom that's 5'x7'.

I agree, and if you can keep the in-laws away then it can spend most of its time on top of the bed 

[kirky]

Im not sure house size has anything to do with it. Much more based in the history of went before. Otherwise we would have a bigger N market than Japan - this information from seven years ago suggests we live in much smaller spaces than the Japanese - Typical Size Of A New Build Home: Japan 132.sq.m; U K 76.sq.m. The link is here https://www.housepricecrash.co.uk/forum/index.php?/topic/179299-typical-size-of-a-new-build-home-japan-132sqm-u-k-76sqm/

Cheers
Kirky

[njee20]

Not sure I get that. If you're "banished to an outbuilding", ie you have a garage to build a layout in then you've probably got a decent space to use!

I think where space is likely to push people towards N is earlier when people are having to build a portable layout that fits under the spare bed in a modern house with a spare bedroom that's 5'x7'.

I agree, and if you can keep the in-laws away then it can spend most of its time on top of the bed 

We just didn't put beds in any of the spare bedrooms, fill them with clutter and no one comes

Im not sure house size has anything to do with it. Much more based in the history of went before. Otherwise we would have a bigger N market than Japan - this information from seven years ago suggests we live in much smaller spaces than the Japanese - Typical Size Of A New Build Home: Japan 132.sq.m; U K 76.sq.m. The link is here https://www.housepricecrash.co.uk/forum/index.php?/topic/179299-typical-size-of-a-new-build-home-japan-132sqm-u-k-76sqm/

Yes, I originally wrote that the popularity of scales was too heavily entrenched in history; as a nation we adopted OO, so changing away from that (at a macro level) is very hard, particularly when most children's gateway to model railways will still be a Hornby product. Very interesting that Japanese homes are that much bigger than UK ones!

[Invicta Alec]

- this information from seven years ago suggests we live in much smaller spaces than the Japanese - Typical Size Of A New Build Home: Japan 132.sq.m; U K 76.sq.m.

Cheers
Kirky

Instinctively thought that Kirky's figures were wrong. Two minutes of googling later and I found some
newer figures. Japan 123 m2 UK 85 m2. So a misconception on my part has been cleared up this morning! 

So despite having bigger houses the Japanese prefer N gauge. Good thinking chaps! 

Alec.

[Bealman]

Squiddy may correct me here, but square metres does not equate to actual house size, footprintwise.

The lovely lady in Japan who invited us into her home and dressed Mrs Bealman in the silk kimono she had worn on her 21st birthday was relatively well off, and owned a huge house.

However, it was thin and narrow, on three floors, connected by a lift!

Each floor by itself was quite tiny in area.

Hence, unless your model railway is going from floor to floor, available space is tight.

[crewearpley40]

Some interesting points. For me its a matter of what space i have available and creating a layout to enjoy. I thought living in a flat what with constraints of space, portability , was the option compared to my 20s when i had space at my late Grandfather's in the garage albeit a larger scale. Roll years on downsize, family matter, move, flat, ok sell larger gauge, exhibition attendance, see n gauge, buy in that gauge, hooked. Good arguments and discussion all round