New Dapol

[RWJP]

I think it's a shame your first post on the forum is so negative

So do I.

I've been a lurker on this forum for ages, and have generally been very impressed with the quality of the content here. To then see the comments in here was rather dissapointing.

And yes, I do accuse people of whining, because in some cases, that's what they were doing... "Why don't Dapol release models they are already working on" is not an opinion, it's someone whining, especially when Dapol have also released a press release clearly saying what is going on with the other models. Saying "That A3 doesn't look very good it's got the wrong bits on it and the name/number is wrong" when a Dapol representative has already stated that it was a quick sample just to give punters a rough idea is not expressing an opinion, it's whining. Saying "Why are Dapol releasing models that Farish already make" is not expressing an opinion, it's simply whining.

I find it very odd that on a forum dedicated to N Gauge, the response to a frankly fantastic piece of news is almost completely negative. 11 of the 15 posts on the first page (including the original post) were completely negative, whining about QC, Competition, Repetition, Not releasing announced models etc etc...

I'd have thought that people on here would be quite pleased that at least one manufacturer is attempting to improve the quality of models that desperately need it.

I'll stick by my lone viewpoint that this announcement is absolutely fantastic, and well needed in the N Gauge market.

[Truffles]

I'll stick by my lone viewpoint that this announcement is absolutely fantastic, and well needed in the N Gauge market

Don't worry you have at least one other person here that agrees with you.

Dan

[Richard G Dallimore]

Make it two, I think the first posts where ill informed rants.

[4x2]

Just so I don't get labeled.... I'm looking forward to the class 121 'bubble cars' being released, i'm building a 1970's shelf layout and a blue 121 would be great - i've owned 153's and 156's and they all ran well, i'm expecting the 121 to be the same. Sometimes they do get it right, and we should here more about what's good so we can leave the bad on the shelves, good example - Dapol Class 26, I've heard very little about this loco, i had to dig around to find reviews and eventually found out it's a winner ! Type in Dapol B1 and see what happens...

[Newportnobby]

I'd have thought that people on here would be quite pleased that at least one manufacturer is attempting to improve the quality of models that desperately need it.

I'll stick by my lone viewpoint that this announcement is absolutely fantastic, and well needed in the N Gauge market.

Ross - you certainly are not alone in your viewpoint. I, for one, agree with you. Sorry but I just don't like the term "whining" (personal feeling maybe?). However, like some others, I do question why 'The Big 2' want to duplicate models. Farish have a Western which, although not brilliant, looks OK so why would Dapol see the need for one? As I stated before, I would love a Bulleid as the Farish one is grim but at least it can be re-wheeled to look better.
As a lurker for ages you will no doubt have seen a lot (too much IMHO) bad feeling towards Dapol especially regarding their running qualities on steamers.
I suppose in a perfect world I'd like the looks/detail of Dapol and the better running of Farish but, hey, that's never going to happen. Now if Farish improved the detail and Dapol improved the running I would really consider that progress

[Elvinley]

People have reservations for a reason about these announcements. If these will be high quality locos it is indeed an exciting prospect. The price tag of n gauge pacifics seems to be around the 120 pounds mark and upwards. I think in this difficult financial time it is not unreasonable to expect something costing this much to be really good.

[Ollie3440]

I for one am very pleased with these announcements. As said the farish ones are waaay too outdated so it'll be nice to see an A3,A4 and Bullied to 'modern' standards. The couplings are a big big turn up and i applaud dapol for them at last i can get Sheaf hands free

Now onto the 'whining' debate. Yes i would like to see them bring out the models they already have in the pipeline but i also think it's brilliant they surprise us like this. This new way models are announced (ie when they are gonna be ready in the near future) is much better in my view, if they didn't do it like that these would have been announced ages ago and even more people would be moaning!

Final thing, yes i admit Dapol products haven't been the best as of late (running/livery errors) but i propose the simple solution....

...If you don't like it don't buy it!! Or at least get it tested in the shop when you buy it. Surely a poor selling rate will encourage companies to make these improvements?!?!

Once again, well done Dapol on a brilliant year of forthcoming models

Ollie

[Sithlord75]

I'll stick by my lone viewpoint that this announcement is absolutely fantastic, and well needed in the N Gauge market.

As the starter of the thread, I don't think you viewpoint is a lone one, but equally I feel the various criticism launched at Dapol about potential duplication, failing to deliever what has been promised to date and what not is ok.  If this isn't your cup of team, then you have the option of going back to lurking or return to RM Web (where most of us lurk I suspect and do read the comments - including yours) where such criticism seems to be frowned on.

I hope they do well, but after reading the various comments on this, RM Web and the assorted e-mail groups I belong to, I haven't purchased a Britannia (although wanting 70046 because my great-grandfather was one) nor have I purchased a Hall (despite desperately needing to update my Farish example) because Dapol has, in both my view and from what I have read (allowing for the usual 10 to 1 noise of those aggreived to those not) got these models wrong, and deserve criticisim, not money.  I purchased the Farish B1 (two of them so far) for much the same reasons - and I could have saved 20 quid each had I gone the Dapol route.

So Ross, it is a shame you have blazed into  is such a negative way, but perhaps you will find some part of the forum where you can make a positive contribution - show us some pictures of your modelling for example.

[Sithlord75]

Just so I don't get labeled.... I'm looking forward to the class 121 'bubble cars' being released, i'm building a 1970's shelf layout and a blue 121 would be great - i've owned 153's and 156's and they all ran well, i'm expecting the 121 to be the same. Sometimes they do get it right, and we should here more about what's good so we can leave the bad on the shelves, good example - Dapol Class 26, I've heard very little about this loco, i had to dig around to find reviews and eventually found out it's a winner ! Type in Dapol B1 and see what happens...

Yep - which is why I am probably going to get a 26!

[Richard G Dallimore]

So Ross, it is a shame you have blazed into  is such a negative way, but perhaps you will find some part of the forum where you can make a positive contribution - show us some pictures of your modelling for example.
[/quote]

No need for personal attacks. I think you are wrong, my Hall is far better than the Farish out of date offering. Dapol are laying down the gauntlet to Farish to update or lose prestigious items from your catalogue. We can only hope that Farish will start updating like the Castle and King. They certainly are with rolling stock MK1's, Toad to name but 2.

I do not feel that we should be bashing products not yet released and as to previous announced items Dapol have updated that situation. By late next year we will hopefully be up to date except the ones on hold.

Can I wish both Dapol and Farish good luck as potentially very hard time may be ahead.

[Stevie DC]

Personally I think its great that one of the RTR manufactures has acknowledged the need to produce new examples of three iconic lomotives with the A3, A4 and Bullied Light Pacific. All these models have been in production for 20year+ (the A3 and Bullied even longer). When Hornby and Bachmann announced new toolings to models from their existing ranges (and some swapping of product range) most of the OO gaugers welcomed the news with open arms. Yes I feel that duplication cannot be good for sales but a brand new, detailed tooling must be better than the old, very inaccurate (A4 being the exception, at least above the footplate). However both companies keep new products to themselves, as do businesses in nearly every industry (usually for good reason) so some crossed wires and duplicated products are to be expected.

Will Farish produce an A3 or A4? I would think it likely due to the development work that went into the Peppercorn A1 but an A2 would be a nice surprise too (although sadly not for me as I'm modeling the 1930's although I'm feeling tempted!). My only grip being that I was going to see if a Farish A1 could be a good starting point for a kit of the A3 and A4 but I've been saved the bother of that now!!!  

Regarding previously announced products, I feel that both manufacturers have learnt that it's one thing to announce a product but a completely different ball game to get that product to market. As with the GWR 2-8-0 Dapol have not had an easy ride trying to fit in all their gubins into a small tender so understandably the production slot has slipped in favour of models which successfully reached a higher level of design/development in less time. As Dapol have stated the above loco is now due for release sometime next year which indicates that they've got their problems with it sorted.

I do feel that quality control should be tighter but surely that is a problem for the factory as well as Dapol and Farish... I must say I've been very lucky with my locomotives with only one dud (out of c.40 locos of Farish, Dapol and continental manufacture). The dud being a Dapol B1 chassis unit which was bought on the understanding that it was a non runner - this didn't matter to me as I bought it to strip for usable parts for another project. To be honest though hearing 10-30 complaints about locomotives on the forums isn't too bad (although I understand the urgument that they should all work perfectly - my new car didn't!) when you consider that a batch would normally run at 3000+ units.

Thank you to both Farish and Dapol for continuing to (at least try) raise the bar and increase the range of next generation models.  

[Sithlord75]

No need for personal attacks. I think you are wrong, my Hall is far better than the Farish out of date offering. Dapol are laying down the gauntlet to Farish to update or lose prestigious items from your catalogue. We can only hope that Farish will start updating like the Castle and King. They certainly are with rolling stock MK1's, Toad to name but 2.

I do not feel that we should be bashing products not yet released and as to previous announced items Dapol have updated that situation. By late next year we will hopefully be up to date except the ones on hold.

Can I wish both Dapol and Farish good luck as potentially very hard time may be ahead.

Not sure where the personal attack was - Ross did come in with an overly negative post for his first up post IMO (as was Ross's own opinion if you read back, along with Newportnobby) and I would welcome seeing his modelling - which surely can be considered encouragement and a positive?

I also don't dispute the Dapol Hall is better than the Farish one, but I will wait for the inevitable discount (look at the B1, the 9F in the past and others) before I buy one because I don't like having to fix things these days which shouldn't need fixing - like the wheel colour (my Hall is from when I was a hot headed youth of 19 who didn't know much about British railways other than they were faster than the US stuff I had a majority of when I decided to switch!).

I also remember the carping and critizing Dave Jones used to put on the Modern N-Gauge e-group when he founded it about Farish letting things jump in in front of other models.

[MartinMc]

Hi
Brilliant news from Dapol. From the photos I have seen they really are a step up from the older Farish locos. No doubt there. Yes I am new but I do agree with most of what Ross said. Their really is too much complaining these days before a model has even hit the shops. I watched Dapol cop no amount of flak on one of the HST liveries, everyone saying it was wrong. The livery was actually correct but not for one second did they assume that Dapol had being told by the actual company who owns the livery "this is how we want it painted".

So why the secret? firstly thats just good marketing keeping one step ahead of the competitors. They want it to help improve their models. Also worth considering I know some of the manufacturers are getting tired of the constant complaining. In realistic terms if you take all the UK model train forums what percentage of the total, actually know about the forums and post. You would be lucky if it was 3% and yet a fair amount of the complaining comes for this 3%?

Manufactures have no problems with constructive criticism. Posting something like "it just doesnt look right" or "something is not quite right" then going on a rant,  and leaving the manufacturer looking bad. I have seen it time and time again.

If your going to be critical it worth having all the facts and this topic is a classic example of people not have the facts and shooting from the hip.

Dapol are certainly on a winner here. The A4 will go out the door like hot cakes. Love the couplings I can just imagine the new potential here for DC and DCC. No more hand of God........ shunting layouts are going to be so much more fun and with the new signals wow, between Farish and Dapol we have never had it so good in n gauge. Just a guess now with the announcements over the last 2 months I think you will find a few OO fans taking a real hard fresh look at n gauge.

Well done Dapol for listening to your customer base and setting a new benchmark with these outstanding models.

Cheers

Martin

[Truffles]

I find this competition between Dapol and Farish somewhat immature! I too am still eagerly awaiting some of the previously announce "magnificent Seven" models which have taken a long time to materialise, surely it would be be more appropriate to focus on getting out previously announced models before making more future announcements. I also think that rather than being the first company to announce an intention to produce a model there needs to be a greater focus on quality control, after all most of us actually run our models as opposed to displaying them, therefore the running quality is as important as the aesthetics.

I am not anti Dapol or Farish for that matter. Dapol have provided the impetus for improving the visual quality of N-gauge models but if you read the various forums, many Dapol models have substandard running characteristics. I also dislike the childish way that both manufacturers are attempting to score points off one another. There is room in the market for two companies who have the vision and determination to bring accurate, well produced N-gauge models!

Hi could you expand on the 'childish way that both manufactures are attempting to score points off one another' I am genuinely interested to read some examples.

Maybe it's because we see model trains as a hobby but some people need to have a reality check and realise that both Farish and Dapol are businesses with a primary aim to make money...what other area of business do competitors skip along holding hands deciding between them what products they should produce? The locos announced are the most iconic in the history of British Railways...just because Farish have produced a 'big' tender does that mean that they have a divine right to produce what would arguably be the biggest selling loco in N Gauge. We have no idea what Farish have planned, yet it is almost assumed that these locos are rightfully there's and Dapol are dirty rotten scoundels for having the temerity to announce them.

It is a real shame that this thread has become what it is and I think the frustration shown by RWJP and a number of others is that from the second post into this thread it deteriorated straight away into the tired old Dapol bashing when the announcements were so positive.

Dan 

[red_death]

To those of you whining about Dapol releasing other models, check the press release that was linked to earlier in this thread, it has clear information about the 28xx, Class 56, Pendolino, Class 92, and the Class 142.

Hi Ross

I think the problem is that we have had "clear" information on some of these releases before, which has later turned out to be not so clear...

To those of you whining about the models shown in the photos. They were first EPs, put together specifically for the Members day this weekend, they are not truly representative of the final models, and Dave from Dapol has already explained that some things are going to be changed (for example the Banjo Dome will be a flush fit with the boiler on release models.)

It is a difficult one this - I can understand Dapol wanting to show off what they are working on, but unless it is very clearly stated that there are known errors then it is all too easy to see why we jump to conclusions...

Not everyone will see Dave's posts on RMWeb - it is surprising that Dapol's website has not been updated, that way they can make these sorts of clear, unambiguous statements.

To those of you whining about competition... I ask you: what competition? Farish currently produce old, basic, models (the Bulleid hasn't been update for decades!) and have not announced any plans to update them. Dapol have announced plans to build new versions, and have already provided images of samples. Where is the competition? Farish produce three rubbish old products, and Dapol are about to release three new products that will be much higher quality. There is absolutely no competition there.

Surely you are not whining about Farish's "rubbish" products! Farish have taken a stance of not announcing new products until they are almost at market, but I don't think it takes a vast stretch of the imagination that Tornado would lead to Farish re-vamping the A3s and A4s (I think this is what people are referring to by potential competition).

Of course you are right about Dapol going for what will get them a good return, though the decision should not be as simple as looking at one model (only by having a wide range of models will the N gauge market draw in new customers either from other scales or new modellers).

Cheers, Mike